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Oversimplification, your thoughts?
theBLANG
Member Posts: 26
Responding to a post by someone concerning the downfalls of EQ2 caused me to realize a trend in all MMORPG games lately, oversimplification. Death penalties are getting more lax, more restrictions are being put in place to keep griefers from causing any trouble, very quick transportation is allowing for people to travel accross the world in minutes. These might seem like good things, but are they? In my opinion, they are really starting to have an effect on the immersive aspect of the game. I take a quote from Guild Wars developers, "Your party always has its own unique copy of the quest map, so camping, kill-stealing, and long lines to complete quests are all things of the past." But what must be sacrificed to give things like this? There is a point at which I would gladly trade a few misfortunes to have freedom back.
As a side note -
After being disappointed with EQ2 and WoW, and having seen this about Guild Wars, I am starting to wonder how long it will be before I can have fun in an MMORPG again.
-M-A-X--L-V-L--C-H-A-R-S-
-EQ: Exxar - 60 Wizard (Karana)
Quit - Scars of Velious
-DAOC: Sethir - 50 Bard (Percival)
Quit - Foundations
Comments
Certain things I do agree on that certain MMORPG's are becoming too simple. I do miss certain things from older EQ such as xp penalty during death and and having to actually travel from place to place. It's utterly sad that no game has incentive anymore to actually avoid death if you can, plus instant teleporting across continents and oceans for all players...isn't cool.
As for griefers though, some yes and some no is my vote on it. People griefing on PvP servers and corpse camping...that's just what happens on PvP servers, and it's not for everyone. However, people running around and generally acting like a bunch of ass dinks, kill stealing, spamming chat, harassing people, and just being jerks can ruin the fun factor for any online game, so I don't really consider it any sort of oversimplification to try and limit access to this type of net refuse.
Overall though, I do agree that the older times of MMO playing were it had some resemblance to RL made things more enjoyable than they are today, at least for me.
Absolutley agree. And with my advice, stay as far away as you can from guildwars. It's just a playground, they oversimplified the shit out of that game.
Dark and Light will hopefully be keeping on track with the way things used to be.
I don't see it as a bad thing at all. Hear me out before you throw things at me.
WoW is a great game for what it is. Blizzard has done a really good job at working out what appeals to the largest market segment. It is an easy game, easy leveling, light death penalty, nice intuitive quest system.
It's kind of like light beer. Yeah it's gross for someone who actually likes beer, but the truth is that more people actually do prefer it.
It does 2 important things though. First it's expanding the MMO market by making it more attractive to a broader range of the population. WoW isn't just sucking up MMO players, it's bringing in a whole new generation specifically because it's less intense. And that means more money and more attention to developing better technology and logistics for MMOs.
Second, it's providing a place for all those light beer drinkers to go play.
Games coming down the pipe, like Mourning, DnL, Darkfall, would be nuts to try and be WoW clones. They would simply lose, period. Blizzard has already gone out and built themselves the ultimate light beer. (and the Zima drinkers play EQ2) No, they're going to succeed by appealing to all those stout drinkers that are feeling left out.
That's my picture anyway. More niche harder-core games coming out this year, better technology, and no light beer drinkers thinning the herd because they're off playing WoW and EQ2.
Even though Guild Wars isn't really an MMORPG, at least it's totally stepping away from the traditional "hard" aspects of an Online RPG as you might like to call it, like camping and griefing and etc, while other games just make little tweaks that don't completly take away the things, but nerf them. Basically, Guild Wars is just shunning those principles, while other MMORPGs are trying to say "ok, let's try to help out the newbies, but keep those traditionalists as well". It's a business concept aimed at making more money. From a business standpoint, I don't see a problem with it. From a gamer perspective, I do see a problem. I think you need to sometimes separate certain types of gamers from others, so they can get the better experience, but doing so would probably hurt you a lot in subscriber numbers, so you really won't see much of that happening.
Huh? I must be missing something here... Wasting time being bored out of your mind traveling is a GOOD thing? Large XP penalties that can days to work off is a GOOD thing? Dying through no fault of your own is a GOOD thing? Being a target for griefers is a GOOD thing? I see folk "recalling the g ood old days" about EQ1. I played in EQ before Kunark and in no way do I miss it. Spending my down time looking at my spellbook while my mana regen'd was NOT fun. Downtime is what makes a game boring, not enjoyable.
Frankly, I like most of the newer MMORGs. I haven't tried EQ2 and won't unless they change their pricing strategy, which I seriously doubt is going to happen. EQ2 is just too expensive to play. If you add up the cost of the monthly fee, the adventure packs, expansion packs, etc. over a one year time and average it out over a year, it will average about $25 per month. Mind you, it is early and difficult to tell the exact average but from what I can see that $25/month average is going to pretty close. My friends have EQ2 and I have seen them demo it for me. For those who may be curious, the Station Access route is about $2 more expensive per month, assuming that all you play is EQ2. If you play other SOE MMORGs and need THOSE games expansions... well.. it gets even more expensive.
SOE also has a bad habit of REQUIRING bleeding edge tech to play their games. No, I don't mean cutting edge, I mean bleeding edge. When I quit playing SOE games, I was relieved to find that my machine didn't have to upgraded every 6 months. Most games work perfectly fine on my computer, it seems to be just the SOE ones that cause me headaches.
All told, between the cost and the system requirements for EQ2, I doubt I play it anytime soon. WoW is another story. I am tempted to play it. I have even MORE friends who play that MMORG and they seem to enjoy it a great deal. System reuirements are much lower than EQ2's and it is FAR cheaper to play than EQ2 with all its hidden costs. Oh, and before someone starts quoting specs on me, I am not talking about the requirements listed on the boxes, I am talking about what you REALLY need to play the game.
As for current MMORGs, I am happy and content to play CoH and Horizons for now. I am looking forward to playing D&D Online as well Star Trek Online.
-M-A-X--L-V-L--C-H-A-R-S-
-EQ: Exxar - 60 Wizard (Karana)
Quit - Scars of Velious
-DAOC: Sethir - 50 Bard (Percival)
Quit - Foundations
You completely missed my point.
While I think it is ridiculous to be able to travel instantly accross the world, you are saying that I am advocating the opposite extreme. While I wouldnt want to be bored out of my mind trying to get accross the world, neither do I like clicking an object and instantly arriving at my destination.
Large exp penalties that can take days to work off? Again you are going in the opposite extreme here. Dying through no fault of your own, explain to me how you would die through no fault of your own. If you chose to go down deep in a dungeon it is up to you to make judgement on whether or not you and your group can handle it.
Being a target for griefers, again you are taking what im saying and going radical with it. I am argueing that griefing is not enough of a problem ( on bluebie servers at least) to enforce restrictions that take away from the game expierence as a whole.
I know this is a minor point, and a minor concern of mine, but to address what you said. As far as spending down time looking at a spellbook to regen mana, I actually miss this. I would think that a mage capable of wielding the elements like they do in fantasy would require some time now and then to do some major concentration. I am not a roleplayer, but it is a little to unrealistic for a mage to be able to run around casting fireballs , never having to sit and do some major meditating. Little things like this do being to add up.
-M-A-X--L-V-L--C-H-A-R-S-
-EQ: Exxar - 60 Wizard (Karana)
Quit - Scars of Velious
-DAOC: Sethir - 50 Bard (Percival)
Quit - Foundations
I agree with that post. But at the same time, when I first saw EQ2 interface, with those 'solo target' things, and simple interface (bells to TP to other zone etc) I felt like this game was for < 18 yo players. Talking about transportation, at first i found boats fun in EQ, but after some time it gets very annoying and long (I spent hours on those damn boats). POK stones are just too simple. Maybe something in between ?
Maybe EQ2 & WoW just want to get the widest audience possible. If I think about that, as someone said earlier, in the future will we have those marketing formated game for the masses vs niche hard core games ?
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Well, first off GW isnt a MMORPG, it has no pretentions about being anything other than a questing and pvp RPG that happens to be played online. It is simplified, but at the same time is very good fun.
The trend amongst the more successful games does seem to be towards carebear-land, i guess they are the ones that buy The Sims. Usually the smaller developers take a much tougher stance and put in stuff like unrestricted PvP etc. One of the recent (kinda..) games that certaintly isnt oversimplified is Eve, its effectively split in two with a free-for-all area, carebear area and no-mans land in-between (its actually quite funny, due to the alliances in low security space its actually safer than some higher security systems).
I don't think that any modern game that wants to be successful (and judged to be successful) can completely alienate carebears or hardcore gamers. How to accomodate both types in one game is quite a topic on its own. It all comes down to risk vs reward and its quite clear that there are thousands of gamers that expect lots of reward for very little risk...
---sig---
PvE in general is pretty lame, if you think long and hard about it. You are spending your time beating a severely gimped AI that would lose to a well trained monkey. Best not to think too long and hard why you are wasting time playing games in general actually...
i think Richard Garriot summarized it best with his concept of "drammatic compression".
What is Drammatic compression you would say? simple what happen in a movie when a long, boring, uneventful travel happens. it get cut. the hero go on the car, the hero arrives. maybe with an indiana jones-like screen detailing where exactly he goes.
How interesting it is to look the hero travelling for 6 hours on the car... while he does nothing but drive? it isn't. MMorpg makers are taking this feature from Movies and applying it to Mmorpgs. While it might take some of the realism out, it still avoid a great deal of time in which i do nothing.
Ultima Online had this. and still it was one of the most realistic game i ever played, immersion there was almost complete. Still you could click a button and teleport you instantly virtually anywhere (even in the last rooms of the mighty dungeons). As long as the travel is explained trough game lore AND uses game mechanics (like the rune system of Ultima Online), it is fine by me.
Same thing for death penalty. Ressurection is NOT realistic, period. it do not matter if you lose 25% of xp or nothing, it do not improve my immersion. At least WoW makes an effort at that. You become a freaking ghost and go around seeing the world ghostlike. This resemble, again, the UO system.
What damage immersions, in my opinion, is more the universal general chat and, on a lesser degrees, /tell commands. How we can justify that i hear everybody around me in kilometers of distance? i can't. but it is still there, nagging at me... intruding on me. Yes, i could turn it off, but the game is designed with it and 99% of others are using it so..... ;P /tell commands also. are we all telepaths that can hear and speak at worlds of distances? At least in a game like SWG i can think is a radio or some sort of comms, but in a fantasy world?
In this case no game has made an effort to explain the general chat AT ALL. it is just there, a OOC feature that glares at me all the time. Again, UO comes out as an example, you could have /tells there, but only by using a in-game mechanics. some kind of crystal balls would work as radios but needed to be recharged with gems ehehehehe
I came to compromise with these of course or i won't be playing Mmorpg
They are games. we can't epxect them to be like reality. they are especially made to not be like reality so having unprobable mechanics is kinda expected.
as for "simple", no, i do not think new mmorpg are simpler. They have less dragonic penalties, yes. It take less time to get higher, yes. that is not being simple. Being simple means, literally, having little or no complexities, not many possibilities, being straightforward. MMorpgs, in that field, have beimg improved all the time. you get more abilities, more tactical possibilities, more spells and powers and so on. they become more Complex, not more simple. you might say they are easier, in the sense you require less time to get to the top.
At the end. i do not think immersion has anything to do with instant transportations, death or chat systems. it is all in the implementation of such features that will give me a more or less immersion. As for difficulty, i must be a spolied kid. Yes, i do not want to spend months to see my character get a single level or that single new point of agility. i get bored if you let me kill bees over and over for 10 hours for absolutly nothing. i need purpose. either built by the game (like WoW/Eq2) or by the players (like UO and in a much less degree, SWG).
At the end of the day, there are two camps of people out there (prolly more than just two). You want a challenge and a competition when you play. Good for you, if that is your idea of fun, you are welcome.
I do not want to ruin my evening because some griefers decided to have fun on MY expenses. So i like WoW and i do not like Shadowbane.
Still, my belief is that both camps are big enough for games. I'll have games that i like and surely there will be games for you. Try Shadowbane and you will see. D&L seems also to approach your concept (40.000 Km2... somebody says it took 6 hours to cross a mountain range, surely realistic and should satisfy your needs
) together with many others, smaller, projects coming out.
Have a nice day.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
i could not disagree more.
For once, there is no possibility that the Devs of the game, being just humans and not all seeing gods, can cover all possibilities of griefing. malicious players will always find ways to go around the system in a way or the other.
For second i do not think, even for a second, that problems in the game should be given the fault for misbehaviour.
Certain people thinks that as they are A) in a game and
they have anonimity that they can do what the want. I applaud companies that make it clear is not that way. A mmorpg is a public place where thousands of people gather to have fun. It is the equivalent of the arcade places of old. Would you "ninja loot" or insult people in an arcade hall? no you won't. you would act polite and you know why? cause if you don't, the owner or, in the worst cases, the police would throw your out.
The games has rules, people follow the rules. If a rule is enforced just on written paper but there is no mechanics that makes it impossible to break it, that do NOT give it the right to you or anybody else to break it. In any other environment that is not Mmorpg this is called "Common Sense" and is applied by a vast majority of the people (is not illegal to keep a cellular phone on during a movie for example and there is nothing preventing you from doing so, but still you don't).
Have a nice day
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
This topic is dead horse you can beat on for centuries. I've come to the conclusion there are just 2 different types of MMO players. The casual type who don't want to dedicate all their time on a game and the serious (hardcore) RPG fans that do.
There isn't a single game on the market that truely caters to BOTH types of players and maybe their never will be.
Well its not only a EQ2 problem its basically all new mmorpg problem.
They have made the games less fusrtating but at the expense of excitement.
And really the challenge is dead in all new mmorpg.I remember back in EQ1 when you actually have to use your brain to figure out what is where and what to say to each npc.
Nowadays ,some mmorpg go as far as given markers on npc .All are about clicking a text which can not go wrong(unless you are really brain dead that is).The even tell you what you need to kill,where and how many .
And yet i seen people have trouble with this quests.
They don't even make you think or reason anymore.
However,while it might be a period of dumb down verions of mmorpg it is good for newcomers since it brings them into the genre gently.
Someone said ah this games cater for the casuals.Using your brain to figure out something has little to do with casual play.
This mindset is what perpetuates the short-sightedness of the MMORPG community. All most players want is fun right here, right now, with no waiting and no penalties associated with failure. They want to win win win now now now.
Then they ALL sit and wonder why the game is boring a month or two later...
Guys, let me sum this up in a way everyone can understand. Consider your favorite RTS game, like Starcraft, Age of Empires, or even Civilization. Most of these games have cheats you can enable that make you invincible, have infinite money, or enable your units to move a lot faster. Is it fun to play these games with all of the cheats turned on? Hell yeah!... for about fifteen minutes. Then you get bored and turn them off or move on to another game. Why does it get boring? You're doing the exact same thing you do with the cheats off, there's just no challenge. Without risks, there are no real rewards. Without downtime, the uptime loses its luster. Without having to actually travel to get somewhere, you're not on a "journey," you're on a "job."
I'm not saying MMORPGs need to become tedious routines of headache tasks, but the more we neuter them by removing all of the challenge, downtime, and traveling, the faster you're going to get sick of them.
the cheat analogy is plain wrong in my opinion. a better one is this one: Command & conquer Generals or any other RTS you like. when you give order to build unit it actually show you the process of building a tank. it take around 30 minutes to build one. Infantry get trained in 25 minutes and airplanes takes an hour.
Removing long travel times do not remove the challenge, unless you think 6 hours of running are a challenge? to what? my mental sanity? i agree with you there.
The challenge is what is at the END of the travel, the big bad ass dragon, the ogre general and his armies, the undead lich and his minions... the evil witch.. etc etc.
Do not get me wrong, i do not want travel time abolished. i just feel the modern travel time is exactly right. you still have to run around making you explore and savor the scenario, but it do not become so long to be frustrating.
And if you think it is long in EQ2/WoW, think that more than one persons posted it is too long
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
It sure sounds like you want to waste everyones time. I'm sure there is a game out there you can grief other players in, just keep looking. Thankfully, the new MMOs are not allowing players to ruin the experience of each other.
Really these things that you mention were timesinks, nothing more. A way for the game companies to keep players "chasing the carrot" and stretch out the subscription as long as possible.
Good riddance, I say.
Some really good posts here. rentantilus and hercules, you are right on the money ... I agree with every word. BUT, even though it's becoming more and more obvious that the problems are exactly as you state, as you can see, most people STILL don't hear you. The gaming world is simply becoming more and more one of instant gratification, coupled with almost instant boredom.
People have completely lost sight of the fact that - just like your parents told you when you were 6 years old - things you have to put in effort to achieve will have more significance to you than things which come easily. AND, it takes effort - significant effort - to achieve worthwhile goals in life. Why should games operate on a different model.
YES, "effort" may consist of longer travel times, more down time, greater penalties for death, etc. Whatever. It's the act of overcoming difficulty - WHATEVER that difficulty may be - that brings a sense of achievement. I'm sorry but you just can't have endless dragons lined up next to each other for instant killing and feel any sense of achievement from doing it. The glory and wonder of killing a dragon arises from the time and effort it took you to get to the point of being able to do it ... not just that it's a big great-looking thing.
I intensely disliked many aspects of EQ1. The travel time drove me insane. I dreaded having to stay up all night to get my corpse back. Exp loss was brutal. With my limited playing time, it seemed impossble to get where I wanted to get. But, being one who likes challenges, it kept me playing, and eventually - yes, *years* later, lol - I did. Yup I sure as hell do feel a sense of accomplishment that I managed to overcome those challenges. What possibly sense of achievement do any of you get from doing something that everyone else can do quickly and painlessly. Don't even tell me this is really entertaining you because while you may get some entertainment during the honeymoon period, it quickly devolves to boredom and frustration. Wow, you maxed levels huh ... well, er uh, everyone else has too. Grats, good job. Poof, you're uber. Then you all blame the games for not providing enough content. It's not the games' fault - it's your fault ... you asked for it you got it ... fast easy content.
What most gamers THINK they want is not what they really want. You can't leave it up to them. Human nature being as it is, most people will automatically choose the easiest path available. Thus, given a choice, they will choose to reach max level and total uberhood in a month ... then they simply start getting bored ... fast.
We have an increasing number of gamers out there who want bigger and bigger, more and more complex games that they can burn through in a short period of time. People are in a rush to arrive at boredom ... then they simply complain that they want more content because they foolishly think that doing more of the same things that just failed to provide sufficient entertainment is the solution.
And this economic model cannot possibly work either. You simply cannot having bigger and bigger companies pouring in more and more money to make larger and larger worlds with increased amounts of good-looking but easy content which you quickly fly through and leave, merely to sit and moon that the next game coming out will solve your problems. These worlds which you want cost a fortune to create and maintain ... SOMEHOW the companies need to keep you playing long enough to pay for it.
YES, put back the pain, the timesinks, and the difficulty. Do that and they will come
The persistent whiners can always find easy time-killers. Give us GAME-PLAYERS something to get our teeth into.
Don't be a dumbass, nobody said they want you to have to run for 6 hours in an MMORPG.
Yup, lol ... there's a perfect example of the mindset we're dealing with. Er uh well it's either instant teleport or 6 hours running ... I just can't think of any other options
Oops, messed up the original quote, which was by volkmar.
You misunderstood it. I was refering to the trend in modern MMORPGs of watering down all of the challenges and logistical endeavors of the game. Without more penalties associated with failure, the rewards of success are dull. Without actually having to travel to get somewhere, you take for granted the size of the game world. Without having to put any thought into how to best utilize your downtime, you lose appreciation for how exciting the uptime is.
Don't be a dumbass, nobody said they want you to have to run for 6 hours in an MMORPG. You know, I'd say 99% of the arguments, flaming, and trolling could be eliminated in this forum if people would stop trying to negate one person's idea with some absurd counter-idea from the opposite end of the spectrum. If I came here and said, "I like German beer," I have no doubt that some asshole would shout back at me, "So what, you're a Nazi? You think all Jews should die? You're evil!"
Guys, try to understand someone's idea before you come screaming back at them with some ridiculousness from outer space.
Yeah, but if you can just teleport instantly from one place to another (or get to remote locations, like the distant dragon's lair, in less than a minute or two), what's the point of having a huge game world? Why not just have one area that's a town, then several areas like the dragon's cave, the ogre's encampment, the lich's tomb, and the witch's swamp? You can just teleport from town to the lair and back in under five minutes. Adventure in a can! No waiting!
A) So you saying, without the bad things, there cannot be the good things? Like i need a storm to realize how good is sunshine? This is a pretty widespread way of thinking actually, studied it at school even. I understand the concept "Time invested=reward" i just challenge it. i prefer "Time played= Fun that you get" and that means the more i play the more fun i get, on a 1:1 ratio.... ok.. maybe later i get more fun but, please, no more games in which i need to reach level XX BEFORE the fun starts. i do NOT want to work to get my fun, ok?
C) that is exactly the direction where some next generation mmoRPgs are moving. What is wrong with that? having a central city hub and many adventure areas around it? it is exactly how Baldur's gate 2 is organized.... or Planescape: torment. Or neverwinter nights. All excellent Computer Role Playing Games. Considering i think Planescape: torment the best game ever, much better than WoW, i see really nothing wrong with devs trying to incorporate elements from such games in MMorpg. (
Who cares if i am not special? Who cares if everybody else will have the same adventures as me? As long as i have fun while doing them i certainly do not play to feel to be the best guy on the block. Especially as nobody is EVER special. Given enough time, even Timmy the goon will eventually kill onyxia and get the super axe of the End of the World, his super war horse with laser beams and an arsenal of nukes to make the USA pales. In addition, there can be enough adventures so that we CAN be different. I won't be able to do all the quests in WoW for sure.
Did the fact that millions of people in the world finished Neverwinter nights or your favorite RPG ruined it for you? not for me.
Well, at the end of the day it is clear to me the distinction between you and me. I , from a GAME, want fun, now. First minute i play it, fun. Or then what the heck of a game it is? I surely accept that the fun becomes better later on, ususally games proceed like that. But it should start to be funny immediatly.
You think differently. good. i accept that. There is surely enough space for both.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
YES! It's a fundamental principle of human existence. Dessert is dessert because you don't eat it all day long.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Last time I made a post on MMORPG.com about the oversimplification of modern MMOs and especially EQ II... I had that post deleted by a Mod, EQ II fan, as being "abusive". When I reacted to that I got an official warning.
Needless to say, I would not touch that topic here with a pole. In a real forum though, I would agree.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Well, first off GW isnt a MMORPG, it has no pretentions about being anything other than a questing and pvp RPG that happens to be played online. It is simplified, but at the same time is very good fun.
The trend amongst the more successful games does seem to be towards carebear-land, i guess they are the ones that buy The Sims. Usually the smaller developers take a much tougher stance and put in stuff like unrestricted PvP etc. One of the recent (kinda..) games that certaintly isnt oversimplified is Eve, its effectively split in two with a free-for-all area, carebear area and no-mans land in-between (its actually quite funny, due to the alliances in low security space its actually safer than some higher security systems).
I don't think that any modern game that wants to be successful (and judged to be successful) can completely alienate carebears or hardcore gamers. How to accomodate both types in one game is quite a topic on its own. It all comes down to risk vs reward and its quite clear that there are thousands of gamers that expect lots of reward for very little risk...
"""It all comes down to risk vs reward and its quite clear that there are thousands of gamers that expect lots of reward for very little risk... """
And unfortunatly it seems as if mmo's today are being marketed towards this group.
-M-A-X--L-V-L--C-H-A-R-S-
-EQ: Exxar - 60 Wizard (Karana)
Quit - Scars of Velious
-DAOC: Sethir - 50 Bard (Percival)
Quit - Foundations
-M-A-X--L-V-L--C-H-A-R-S-
-EQ: Exxar - 60 Wizard (Karana)
Quit - Scars of Velious
-DAOC: Sethir - 50 Bard (Percival)
Quit - Foundations