Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Leveling Curve, Diaries and Maps?
savarage
Member Posts: 17
I have several things want to ask starting with the most important one which is the Leveling Curve. What I mean by that is how does leveling work in the game? I'm not refering to getting xp (although an idea of where experiance is gained is good).
What i want to know is does leveling get progressively harder as in it takes 100 xp to get to level 1 but 1000 to get to level 2 basically this is how most mmo's with levels work and it works well for their system because they have set classes with specific skills which means that it makes sense to show progress that way.
However in a skilled based MMO this should not be the case for the simple reason that players can chose what skill they want to improve so the game designers can't tell when Timmy who was making a knight is shining armor decides to train his knight into a spellsword character as such the system of levels costing more xp becomes unreasonable in the amount it punishes players who decide to try to do some thing new at higher levels.
As such I feel that a leveling curve where the levels are the same length i.e. cost the same xp should be implemented however conversely skills should cost more as you srengthen them meaning using our earlier example Timmy may have a knight however it is easy for him to become a aprentice in the area of magic yet if he wishes to become a master of it he has to invest more time into it instead of his sword skills.
My other less vital questions involve the creation of a players personal diary which they can write notes to keep track of what they know and other things they have learned this feature could also be tied into a in game library where books written by the player for the public can be judged for quality and how well they fit the game and how usefu they are (without being spoiler-ish) then given access to the public in an entirely player made but GM controlled (i.e. they decide whether a book matches the feel of the game and has correct information) library .
The final thing is maps can we have maps that players can make based on the areas we have explored thus someone can show the general shape of an area but not details like guards to someone else who has never been there If thats not possible or not a high priority can we at least have a way of noteing important places on our personal world map i.e placing a point with a reminder that we attacked this evil warlord castle so were not welcome there or that we helped this town so free beer at the town pub so on ans so forth basically a function to us mark where our important locations are.
Comments
There are no levels so how can there be a leveling curve? (my bad, apparently there is some new and improved level system) The progression of difficulty in leveling is mostly an illusion of numbers as the cost and rewards as you progress continue to increase. What really matters is the time it takes to progress. Your second argument about punishing players who branch to new things at higher level is a balance issue. How do you balance the challenge of an encounter for your high level knight who decides to develop spell skills? Given more hit points and better equipment than a starting caster, your high level knight should have no problem overcoming the sewer rats that are a challenge to a beginning caster. The proper balance is achieved when takes you the same amount of time to improve your casting abilities as it does for that initiate caster. This kind of balance is not easy to attain in most games as it will completely vary by class and level.
The website and Jatar have yet to provide info on progression. Hopefully we'll have that soon
The info so far is that there are 5 schools. So unlike multi-classing in class-based games you have a greater amount of leeway in your characters progression just within your primary school. Previous information implied that it costs to be in a guild and that cost increases as you apply to more schools. Since the game is not bound to grinding kills for xp, I think it will be easier to balance the progression of a character who has specialized for some time in a single school then tries his hand at another.
Leveling in CoS involves a new system that I can't talk about quite yet, but ignoring that part... I can still answer your question in more general terms. Going up levels in CoS does use a familiar increased EXP system. Example (though these numbers are pulled out of a hat) 1,000 for level 1, 2,000 for level 2, 4,000 for level three, etc.
There are good reasons why this sytem is used in CoS and many other games. It has to do with level balancing in groups. If a high level PC comes down and joins a low level adventure, they will gain the same amount of experience as the other members of the group, but since the other members are lower level it will benefit them more, thus helping to 'catch them up' to the higher level player.
However, don't dispair, yes it takes more EXP to level as you get higher up, but the amount of EXP given in adventures increases as well. Thus the speed in which you level up does not slow, but hopefully remains constant thorughout the game (as long as you are taking on adventures that match your level of experience).
The fact that we allow PCs to create their own character 'class' really doesn't change the dynamic of this system. Going up levels gives you points to spend on Abilities. These points can be spent on ANY ability you wish to improve, with a couple caveats. You must have the Tomb of Knowledge for the Ability (gained through adventuring for it) and you must currently be a member of that League, in good standing. However nothing stops any player from doing these two things and therefore, gaining any Ability for their player that they wish.
Your worry about 'Timmy' changing his mind later on is no problem. An Echelon 1 Ability cost the same number of Study points when you are level one as it does when you are level 200. The number of Study points awarded at each level is the same. So, since you gain levels at a constant rate, and are given Study points at a constant rate, and can learn any Ability at any time, there is no disadvantage to learning a new line of knowledge later.
Now, the personal diary. We call it the Journal, and each player has one. They can write whatever they want in their journal, and place markers on maps with links to information. Thus they can mark a place on their map and write something about it. When the hover their mouse over that marker it will show the title, and if they want they can click on it and expand to whatever they wrote about the place. They can even share markers with other group members if they wish. (Example: "Meet me at the cave I marked on the map", and when the group member looks at their map they will find a marker placed there showing the location of the cave).
Sorry, but when it coms to writing large books that players wish to share with other playrs, there will be no 'GM" based reviewing, etc. here. We're not going to spend the time to read books that players wrote to make sure they fit the world, etc. If players want to write that kind of thing they will need to run their own web sites and police themselves. We have enough to do writing our own stories and ongoing changes to the daily evolving world of CoS without having to police player writing..
They also said that zones would open up based on your over all power and if you went back to a lower power zone the emenies would still be challenging as they are based on your power.
Basically the lving curve is your character build.
So then what's to stop high levels just powerleveling everyone? I'm assuming you plan to have some sort of check and balance for this system? Otherwise, the game will be filled with "Powerleveling 100 gold per level" and noone really playing the game.
So then what's to stop high levels just powerleveling everyone? I'm assuming you plan to have some sort of check and balance for this system? Otherwise, the game will be filled with "Powerleveling 100 gold per level" and noone really playing the game.
When higher level players travel with lower level players they have to come 'down' to their area of play. This is governed by the Citadel Tier system. And though the challenges scale to the groups overall 'power' the amount of experience awards don't change. Therefore, a higher level player traveling with a lower level group cannot help them advance quicker than normal, but they can join their lower level friends and go adventuring. As a side note, you'll notice that the higher level player will be getting negligable EXP gains while doing this, so it's for the fun of it, but they won't choose to travel in lower Tiers normally if they want to advance their character at a decent pace. Also, lower level players cannot go up to higher Tiers until they earn their way up.
All this means that power leveling assistance won't be possible. Everyone must earn their character's progress.
I feel i needed to comment here only because i know far too well how much the modern gamer WORRIES about speed leveling.
I think rather than cater to these people and totally ruin the game by having hardcore players outlast the content then complain later,a VERY slow leveling curve is the best way to go.
The ONLY reason anyone would complain about a slow leveling curve is because the game is boring to play,then witch gets back to the point that i would not cater to those who find the game boring to play.
Instead the game should try to offer some very interesting ideas and game play for all levels,making it so that players are intrigued so much at every level,they do not care about how fast they level.
This has been a constant mistake by new games,because people are ONLY concerned about getting to and playing PVP end game,that is and should not be what a RPG MMO is all about.
I could throw out tons of ideas for intriguing level play,but not the post to do it as it would become a VERY large post.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I'm not so sure about super slow leveling. I do agree though, that if a game had more to it than just getting to the next level of my character, the players would be less concerned about how fast they got to the next level. That is a grinders mentality and CoS seems like a game being designed to stop the grind and improve the game play.
Still, I would suggest a paced leveling, where you keep getting a level every so often, rather than 20 levels in the first week and then slower and slower. I've noticed that kind of thing in other games and it drives me nuts. I would rather have a happy medium between how often I get a level, but have it more paced so that I can keep improving my character along the entire time I play. This means that initially I would have to have enough skills so that I didn't need to level 20 times in the first week.
Why not have a leveling system like EVE where you level while online or off line. That way no one worries about leveling and concentrates more on just playing and having fun, because they can't do anything about there leveling.
Because this game isn't trying to be like eve maybe,and infinite levels and an AI that continues to get harder would just make it frustrating to people who had to stop playing for a month or so.
I want to pay to play,not pay to afk and then play.
I get the distinct impression that you can play the main storyline but also pick up a lot of additional quests from the citadel. Which is the way yoiu may really level and develop your charachter. Offline mode doesn't stack here as this is storyline based which is the game and if you want to level offline why buy a game if you dont want to play it ... Strange...
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I get the distinct impression that you can play the main storyline but also pick up a lot of additional quests from the citadel. Which is the way yoiu may really level and develop your charachter. Offline mode doesn't stack here as this is storyline based which is the game and if you want to level offline why buy a game if you dont want to play it ... Strange...
you have a point on the leveling off line is very strange
How about this then. maybe and this is just brain storming so please don't shoot me, but i was thinking why not have it so that its not a leveling char but skill based char; however here is the catch instead of having a skill tree have the only way you can get a skill is by questing and adventuring.
For example you start on a quest and somewhere down the road the reword for completing part of it or all of it you get a skill instead of a sword or shield or whatever have you. This way people stop thinking about grinding and just start having fun and adventuring in the hopes of finding that rare quest that will give them a truly unique skill that no one has exp the people who helped this npc or killed that npc and so on. everyone will never have the same type of skills 100% of the time. so as the NPC are created new skills can be added and so on. I hope i explained that right. My english is not very good
I get the distinct impression that you can play the main storyline but also pick up a lot of additional quests from the citadel. Which is the way yoiu may really level and develop your charachter. Offline mode doesn't stack here as this is storyline based which is the game and if you want to level offline why buy a game if you dont want to play it ... Strange...
Well, not really. You see, we're not doing this like LOTRO, where they have an epic story and then other quests. This is radically different. Your character has their own life. The path you take through the world will be unique. This is simply because the choices you make change the way things go all the way through, and although there are chapters to your story, these will not be the same as another players and they all string together into one big story in many ways (rather than episodic quests).
I understand that you are used to concept of episodic and quite simplistic quests in other games. And although you can do them in different order, they are essentially the same for every player. In CoS Quests are not the same for each player, and they are anything but simplistic. I cannot predict what your player's story will be, it is impossible. Your choices will flavor everything you do, and past choices will change future quests. You will live a unique life. It's hard to explain without getting into the mechanics and how we are accomplishing that, and I'm not allowed to release that information (sorry). This is one of the main reasons people keep doubting that we can deliver this design. We understand their disbelief, but we cannot let it deter us from our goal.
The Epic story are the big events of the world that transpire around your individual story, they are not a quest line you follow. Yes, they can impact your life, but this is not some quest line you go follow when you are not doing other quests. It just doesn't work that way in CoS. Your life progresses, what happens to you happens. There is no starting a quest over, no repeating anything. The outcome you achieve at any portion of your life is the outcome you get. Just like real life, no 'redos'. But remember, this doesn't stop your story, it is just what happens in your story. Not everything goes well in a fantasy novel for the main characters, they just deal with it.
Using LOTR as an example, did Aragorn want Merry and Pippin to be stolen by orcs and have to run for three days chasing them? Nope, and he didn't get a redo, he had to chase down those orcs. But first he had to decide, did he want to follow Frodo or go after Merry and Pippin? That was a choice that changed the story... changed his life. Those are the kinds of things you will have to choose in CoS and your character's story will develop along different lines based on those choices.
I get the distinct impression that you can play the main storyline but also pick up a lot of additional quests from the citadel. Which is the way yoiu may really level and develop your charachter. Offline mode doesn't stack here as this is storyline based which is the game and if you want to level offline why buy a game if you dont want to play it ... Strange...
Well, not really. You see, we're not doing this like LOTRO, where they have an epic story and then other quests. This is radically different. Your character has their own life. The path you take through the world will be unique. This is simply because the choices you make change the way things go all the way through, and although there are chapters to your story, these will not be the same as another players and they all string together into one big story in many ways (rather than episodic quests).
I understand that you are used to concept of episodic and quite simplistic quests in other games. And although you can do them in different order, they are essentially the same for every player. In CoS Quests are not the same for each player, and they are anything but simplistic. I cannot predict what your player's story will be, it is impossible. Your choices will flavor everything you do, and past choices will change future quests. You will live a unique life. It's hard to explain without getting into the mechanics and how we are accomplishing that, and I'm not allowed to release that information (sorry). This is one of the main reasons people keep doubting that we can deliver this design. We understand their disbelief, but we cannot let it deter us from our goal.
The Epic story are the big events of the world that transpire around your individual story, they are not a quest line you follow. Yes, they can impact your life, but this is not some quest line you go follow when you are not doing other quests. It just doesn't work that way in CoS. Your life progresses, what happens to you happens. There is no starting a quest over, no repeating anything. The outcome you achieve at any portion of your life is the outcome you get. Just like real life, no 'redos'. But remember, this doesn't stop your story, it is just what happens in your story. Not everything goes well in a fantasy novel for the main characters, they just deal with it.
Using LOTR as an example, did Aragorn want Merry and Pippin to be stolen by orcs and have to run for three days chasing them? Nope, and he didn't get a redo, he had to chase down those orcs. But first he had to decide, did he want to follow Frodo or go after Merry and Pippin? That was a choice that changed the story... changed his life. Those are the kinds of things you will have to choose in CoS and your character's story will develop along different lines based on those choices.
Are you replying to my post ? I am sure you mentioned a chapter end to a charachters playtime in earlier posts. Any activity or period of play can be considered a quest even if it is open ended.
Some of the games I play actually have very complex quests/storyline whatever tag you want to associate with ongoing gameplay they just arent MMOs.....
I understand what you guys are trying to do and it;s exactly the type of game I want but correct me , I am sure somewhere you mentioned that a main storyline can be completed with variations but completed unless I am going mad and imagined it.
I assumed taht you would end up at some points which are similar just that you would be good or evil. Now I know CoS will have redefined good or evil but I hope uyou understand what i was trying to express above.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Are you replying to my post ? I am sure you mentioned a chapter end to a charachters playtime in earlier posts. Any activity or period of play can be considered a quest even if it is open ended.
Some of the games I play actually have very complex quests/storyline whatever tag you want to associate with ongoing gameplay they just arent MMOs.....
I understand what you guys are trying to do and it;s exactly the type of game I want but correct me , I am sure somewhere you mentioned that a main storyline can be completed with variations but completed unless I am going mad and imagined it.
I assumed taht you would end up at some points which are similar just that you would be good or evil. Now I know CoS will have redefined good or evil but I hope uyou understand what i was trying to express above.
First off, I'm not sure what you are talking about in your post above. Not much of it has to do with what we're doing. Statements like "Any activity or period of play can be considered a quest even it if is open ended" have little to do with our system. And "you would end up at some points which are similar just that you would be good or evil." is not anything really to do with our game.
This is a little hard to explain because our system is so different from other MMOs, but I'll do my best. If you can stop thinking of Quests as some episodic task for a few moments, we can get a little closer.
Our quest system is quite simple to understand IF you forget other games completely. You are MUCH better off thinking in terms of a fantasy novel story rather than as an MMO or RPG. Your character will live through a continuous series of adventures that eventually take them to a grand climax. But unlike a book, each player's journey through the game is different.
You don't go get a bunch of quests and pick tasks from that list to go do, that would be like other MMOs. Forget that. Think about a story. It has a beginning, and various adventures along the way and then a climax. You cannot collect tasks (what other games call quests). Instead you are on your adventure, that's it. You do what happens next in your adventure, it's a story that is continuously unfolding. But your story unfolds differently than anyone else and changes based on what you do. You can join up with other players and your story melds with theirs for that time, and when you separate your stories diverge.
But as long as you think of 'quests' and picture what you have seen in other MMOs you will continue to miss what CoS is doing when we call it a quest. A quest in CoS is simply a part of your ongoing story, not something separate. You cannot repeat it, start it over, do it again, because it's part of an ongoing story, what happens happens, and your story just continues.
OK, let's try to explain this in terms of Lord of the Rings (book or movie). When Frodo and company go to the Mines of Moria, is that a quest? When Gandalf falls to the Balrog did they start over, or do they just continue? Is the battle at Helm's Deep a Quest? Or is is just the continuing part of Aragorn (and others) story? These adventures are all just part of their story, and Frodo's story and Aragorn's story, though different in many places, go together for a time. This is the same as two players in CoS. You might join for a time and your stories will merge, but you can separate and they will continue.
Finally, in your last sentence you mentioned good and evil... there is no such thing in CoS for players. Players are ALL shades of gray. CoS is about keeping a balance in your character and no one can play a good character or an evil one. Again, forget other MMO games and it will help you a little.
And there seems to be some confusion about the grand climax. Your story will have one, and you will get there eventually. But this isn't some separate thing you do along the way, some special quest... you just live through your life as a character and get to the grand climax. Everyone gets there in a different way. Let's go back to LOTR. In the grand climax Frodo destroys the ring of power. That's his grand climax. But Aragorn wasn't there at Mt. Doom with him... right? But he was busy at the grand climax as well, fighting Sauron's army. Everyone gets there but everyone isn't the same. It's your story, you'll see how it unfolds and the choices you make will impact that story.
Jatar, I understand 100% what you are doing it is just the this is totally different spin is starting to grate a little(not too much though). The grand climax with different endings is exactly what I reffered to but sadly didn't use the correct terms so I am happy with that.
I undestand you don't like the word Quest for some reason, but just because I am not walking upto a NPC with a yellow exclamation mark above his head doesnt mean that if a NPC proactivly gives me a task or reffers to some form of activity in the region I can't refer to it as a Quest or gameplay with a goal that adds to my storyline and pushes me towards a grand climax does it ?
I am sure you mentioned factions of some form where roaming NPCs will track you depending on a form of standing again maybe you dont use the word faction but it is a trigger that causes an action based on how you have acted, what I was meaning i that in these cases you could be considered good or Evil couldn't you ? Now an NPC would not atack you for no reason would he and I am sure if it happened I could consider the NPC evil or derranged or just pure i'll.
I like the idea you guys are making a content rich game, but it can only play different to a point...
Everything can be categorised to a point nothing is ever 100% original. Really like the idea of the game and will continue to but I read your site and see a gameplay example of people dropping in and out of content changing the group dynamic to me thats the same as a quest if anything in the game drives me to do it. I wont use the term quests any more though ..
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
We're just not communicating here, pretty much at all. Now you think I'm telling you that you can't use the term Quest and that we don't have any. I never said that. In fact, what I've said many times is I don't like OTHER games calling what they do quests, since they are generally grocery lists, not quests. Fetch me 10 rat tails is not a quest, it's a list of things to bring.
I hesitate to try to explain this again simply because once two people start talking to each other and they aren't talking about the same thing, it becomes a circular conversation. This isn't your fault, but it is what's happening right now.
But I'll TRY to go back and refresh this a little. Bare with me.
This started when you said, and I quote, "I get the distinct impression that you can play the main storyline but also pick up a lot of additional quests from the citadel."
This statement is absolutely incorrect in all ways. There is no main storyline to play as a quest. I know this is confusing you, but I will try to explain. I'll use real life. Obama was elected president this year. You are going to the movies tonight. One is what you are doing (call that your quest), the other is the big things that are happening in the world, to which you have little control. That is the epic story of the world. You don't go do it. It just IS.
Second, you cannot pick up a lot of additional personal quests from the citadel. When you are on a quest, that's just what you are doing. It isn't something you pick up and stuff into a quest log and then pick to go do later, you can't. A Quest in our world is what you are doing now, but it isn't a task you can store on a list. When this episode of your character's life is over, something else will happen, one thing will lead to another. You won't pick it off your quest log because you talked to some guys standing on the corner yesterday. There is no personal quest log. There is a journal that will keep track of your previous adventures as you play, just like a book that you are reading, except you can't see what's coming next, only what you have done so far.
Third, and again I'll quote you, this time from your recent post, "I like the idea you guys are making a content rich game, but it can only play different to a point... Everything can be categorised to a point nothing is ever 100% original."
We certainly can't agree with such a statement. There are so many original things in CoS that we have lost count. From the outside I understand why you feel that way. First off, you have read only what we have released, and of course we have kept many of the good things secret. Hell, we won't even release some of this after the game is out, things like HOW we do what we do. Second, there are things that are similar to existing elements in other games, but these do not preclude adding originality as well.
As far as we know NO game has ever used the system by which we are creating Quests, or how they play, period. This includes all MMOs and RPGs that any of our team has ever played, (and that's a VERY big number). It is completely original. No game has used the NPC A.I. system we have constructed. No game has used the Terrain system we are constructing. No game has used the world building system we have constructed. This list goes on and on. When I say no game has used it, I'm telling you that some of these elements have nothing in common with anything done before. But it's OK, I don't blame you for misunderstanding. You would have to be on the team and see behind the scenes to really understand all this. But I just wanted to set it straight, there are many things in this world that can be original, and we are certainly adding some or that originality to CoS.
I will look forward to the day you can come into the world yourself and go on one of our quests... I think you will be pleased.
I think he doesn't like the term "quest" because it has been bastardcized in MMOs.
Quests in every MMO are really just a list of pitiful tasks so that you get experience to level. Collecting 10 warg collars is not a quest. EverQUEST didn't have any quests, even at the beginning, unless you consider jboots a "quest." But jboots was just a task to kill 3 mobs and bring some gold back to a gnome.
Destroying the Ring of Power in Lord of the Rings is a quest. The entire journey for Frodo from the shire to the top of Mount Doom is ONE quest. Going to the Prancing Pony to meet with Gandalf is a step in that quest, but not a quest in itself.
Dorothy's quest to find the Wizard of Oz was a quest. Things happened along the way, she met different characters and faced challenges.
Wikipedia has good examples of what I think Jatar means by quests. I agree with him and I've always had problems with how MMOs call these tiny tasks "quests" when they should be called missions or tasks.
Nobody can tell what CoS is or will be except for the devs but if they say things are going to be different I'm willing to at least give them a chance. I'll reserve judgement until it's further along and then I can start complaining
Edit: of course Jatar posts the same time as me, bah! Well, at least I think I got right what he was talking about
P.S. I really like that emote.