Problem is that some games have an item mall and don't sell gamebreaking items. DDO sells content packs, Wurm sells currency for deed upkeep, etc. People use the excuse that it's about OP items for sale, but really it comes down to the very idea that paying anything outside a subscription fee is ludicrous. A lot of awesome games are out there that can't make it as a blockbuster and have to resort to cheap-to-no subs and item malls, and they don't even sell offensive items - but it won't matter to people that have their minds made up that free games should pay *them* to play.
I am okay with games that are free to play having item shops, like you said they have to pay the bills and make a profit. I will not play a P2P game that has an item shop though. I should get all of the game if I am buying it and paying monthly for it.
Should I just grind mobs, or buy some health potions? How many health potions or xp potiions should I buy? This decision doesn't exist in P2P. There is no decision to make. Either you do the content, or you dont' progress. You progress the same as everyone else, because there is nothing to buy. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but that's the difference.
I think you illustrated why Item Mall shops aren't fair to all players.
But I guess it's a difference of an opinion on whether you want your game to be progressed through time or money.
Should I just grind mobs, or buy some health potions? How many health potions or xp potiions should I buy? This decision doesn't exist in P2P. There is no decision to make. Either you do the content, or you dont' progress. You progress the same as everyone else, because there is nothing to buy. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but that's the difference.
I think you illustrated why Item Mall shops aren't fair to all players.
But I guess it's a difference of an opinion on whether you want your game to be progressed through time or money.
That's almost it, but not quite. Both are "fair" if you enjoy playing by those rules. That's up to the player, and it's subjective. There is no right answer. Either you FEEL it's fair, or you don't. No dev, no other player, can argue you into feeling a game is fair.
But it's not just time versus money.
It is the fact that time and money on F2P are mixed.
I would not mind a F2P if you could not earn ANYTHING in the game. EVERYTHING had to be purchased.
Then, every level 10 would have spent say, 25 dollars. EVERY level 25 would have spent 50 bucks.
Just like in P2P EVERY level 10 has completed about 50 quests, and they took about 30 hours to do.
It's the disparity that I don't like.
IN a F2P SOME players spend 50 bucks, SOME players did not. SOME players took 50 hours to get to level 25, some took 5 hours.
I like everything the same for everyone in the game.
Either ALL money, or ALL time. But not a combination of money and time that is different for each player.
In P2P everyone that killed 200 Mobs is level 2. Everyone that completed 50 quests is level 5. What if I don't want to do 50 quests to be level 5? Sorry, everyone is the same. Either you do 50 quests, or you don't get level 5. It takes everyone roughly the same time to do 50 quests. You can't buy any health potions or xp potions to make it go faster.
"everyone roughly the same time" ... NOT TRUE. Take the biggest P2P game ... WOW.
1) If you have have a L80 toon and tons of emblems, you can buy account bind "heirloom items" that give a new toon 20% (2 items for 10% each) xp boost. So players with L80 toons beat out new players. You can also give your L68 toon flying ability in Northend which makes you level faster.
2) If you are in a power guild (or have enough high level friends), they can carry you to max level FAST by going into a high enough level dungeon, you tag everything and they kill for you. I think that is how the leveling record was broken when WOTLK came out.
"everyone roughly the same time" ... NOT TRUE. Take the biggest P2P game ... WOW. 1) If you have have a L80 toon and tons of emblems, you can buy account bind "heirloom items" that give a new toon 20% (2 items for 10% each) xp boost. So players with L80 toons beat out new players. You can also give your L68 toon flying ability in Northend which makes you level faster. 2) If you are in a power guild (or have enough high level friends), they can carry you to max level FAST by going into a high enough level dungeon, you tag everything and they kill for you. I think that is how the leveling record was broken when WOTLK came out.
1 - Those are options gained in-game, by playing the game. The only way players who have played more won't have some advantage is to take out all advancement. Then - it's not an RPG anymore.
2 - No, really? Being in a guild or having friends is an advantage in an MMORPG? There is nothing wrong with that principle. I don't agree with run-throughs, and they should be eliminated, but players who work with other players should have advantages.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by Ihmotepp The difference is, in one game everyone is the same. In the other game, there are many different types of players. In P2P everyone that killed 200 Mobs is level 2. Everyone that completed 50 quests is level 5. What if I don't want to do 50 quests to be level 5? Sorry, everyone is the same. Either you do 50 quests, or you don't get level 5. It takes everyone roughly the same time to do 50 quests. You can't buy any health potions or xp potions to make it go faster. In f2P, everyone is different based on a combination of content, plus items purchased. How did you get to level 5? Did you buy health potions, or just grind mobs? Did you buy some health potions, or a lot of health potions? I don't know. Should I just grind mobs, or buy some health potions? How many health potions or xp potiions should I buy? This decision doesn't exist in P2P. There is no decision to make. Either you do the content, or you dont' progress. You progress the same as everyone else, because there is nothing to buy. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but that's the difference.
Even P2P games have some options. You can go and grind mobs or do quests, solo or group.
I personally just think it is unfair that if you pay the game gets easier. You get better loot and level faster if you pay for it.
DDO however did think this through and did a very good job with balancing things.
To me it just seems odd that they can't get enough money on P2P, they should just raise the monthly fees instead of trying to squeeze money out from the players for everything, like character transfers, name changes, appearance gear, XP pots and so on.
F2P games is a different matter, you can just choose to play one of them but I want everything included in my monthly fees, and I am prepared to pay $20 or more if it is needed for that.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp The difference is, in one game everyone is the same. In the other game, there are many different types of players. In P2P everyone that killed 200 Mobs is level 2. Everyone that completed 50 quests is level 5. What if I don't want to do 50 quests to be level 5? Sorry, everyone is the same. Either you do 50 quests, or you don't get level 5. It takes everyone roughly the same time to do 50 quests. You can't buy any health potions or xp potions to make it go faster. In f2P, everyone is different based on a combination of content, plus items purchased. How did you get to level 5? Did you buy health potions, or just grind mobs? Did you buy some health potions, or a lot of health potions? I don't know. Should I just grind mobs, or buy some health potions? How many health potions or xp potiions should I buy? This decision doesn't exist in P2P. There is no decision to make. Either you do the content, or you dont' progress. You progress the same as everyone else, because there is nothing to buy. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but that's the difference.
Even P2P games have some options. You can go and grind mobs or do quests, solo or group.
I personally just think it is unfair that if you pay the game gets easier. You get better loot and level faster if you pay for it.
DDO however did think this through and did a very good job with balancing things.
To me it just seems odd that they can't get enough money on P2P, they should just raise the monthly fees instead of trying to squeeze money out from the players for everything, like character transfers, name changes, appearance gear, XP pots and so on.
F2P games is a different matter, you can just choose to play one of them but I want everything included in my monthly fees, and I am prepared to pay $20 or more if it is needed for that.
I think most people would pay a bit more in monthly fees for a good game. At the same time I think companies know that a lot of gamers have no self control in their need to be super uber. At the end of the day cash shops probably will see more revenue than an extra $5 a month. Some of these guys would pay that much in xp potions alone not to mention pets and whatever other things said shop may offer.
Originally posted by MMO_Doubter 1 - Those are options gained in-game, by playing the game. The only way players who have played more won't have some advantage is to take out all advancement. Then - it's not an RPG anymore. 2 - No, really? Being in a guild or having friends is an advantage in an MMORPG? There is nothing wrong with that principle. I don't agree with run-throughs, and they should be eliminated, but players who work with other players should have advantages.
It would still be a RPG game but a very different one.
And I do actually believe that you can make a MMO that is only based on gear and no XP. It would actually be pretty interesting, you could make it pretty advanced and do al the stuff levels do, like giving more HP and even giving skills and spells. Let mages have the room for a certain number of scrolls so he can cast a different spell for each scroll he uses. Something similar with skills and have some stuff to be dropped while you get other by completing quests.
It is actually not that different from a XP based system if you think about it.
I agree with you on the second point, there should be advantages to be in a guild or some other kind of social group (Kingdom, fellowship, adventurer group, whatever).
Originally posted by Ihmotepp The difference is, in one game everyone is the same. In the other game, there are many different types of players. In P2P everyone that killed 200 Mobs is level 2. Everyone that completed 50 quests is level 5. What if I don't want to do 50 quests to be level 5? Sorry, everyone is the same. Either you do 50 quests, or you don't get level 5. It takes everyone roughly the same time to do 50 quests. You can't buy any health potions or xp potions to make it go faster. In f2P, everyone is different based on a combination of content, plus items purchased. How did you get to level 5? Did you buy health potions, or just grind mobs? Did you buy some health potions, or a lot of health potions? I don't know. Should I just grind mobs, or buy some health potions? How many health potions or xp potiions should I buy? This decision doesn't exist in P2P. There is no decision to make. Either you do the content, or you dont' progress. You progress the same as everyone else, because there is nothing to buy. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but that's the difference.
Even P2P games have some options. You can go and grind mobs or do quests, solo or group.
I personally just think it is unfair that if you pay the game gets easier. You get better loot and level faster if you pay for it.
DDO however did think this through and did a very good job with balancing things.
To me it just seems odd that they can't get enough money on P2P, they should just raise the monthly fees instead of trying to squeeze money out from the players for everything, like character transfers, name changes, appearance gear, XP pots and so on.
F2P games is a different matter, you can just choose to play one of them but I want everything included in my monthly fees, and I am prepared to pay $20 or more if it is needed for that.
Raising prices causes all too many people to go into hysterics. I suspect that the transition of DDO to its current business model was an act of desperation, and if it hadn't worked out as well as it has, they would have pulled the plug. I have no problem paying for games that I enjoy. P2P or F2P with a cash shop is all the same to me, as long as I enjoy it.
When exactly do Item Malls become good for a game? Especially a subscription based game. Even if they are cosmetic items, shouldn't these be available to everyone? I mean it's just pure greed, I don't understand how anyone thinks they are a good idea. I can understand if you have some disposable income why you might like a vanity pet or something, but then, the item itself becomes somewhat worthless doesn't it? If anyone can just toss a few bucks to get it? If they aren't cosmetic, the problem becomes more obvious. The game then becomes who is willing to spend the most money to be the most competitive, but I don't understand why you would even play the game to begin with if you're just buying victories? Doesn't that practically defeat the purpose of playing an MMO? It's like paying for a game over screen, or an IWin button. I don't understand anyone who supports an item mall, someone help me understand.
I don't like them, you don't like 'em, plenty of people who do like them. No need to wrap your head around the WHY.
Has anyone in these 24 pages of threads mentioned League of Legends yet? While not a MMO, it seems to be getting by with an almost purely cosmetic item mall or just convience unlockables (that you can get in game through normal play). It's a perfect example of how an item mall could be good for a game and it's perhaps the only example. Hopefully more developers follow suite.
People will pay for cosmetic features to support free games for others just like people will give to charities. The added bonus of looking good and being able to show off you supported the developer is just a bonus. Developers need to stop trying to milk every penny from each sucker and kid and instead focus on getting more paying customers into their games.
What is so hard to understand about itemalls? Simple change between subscription and online shop, yes it is greed, but if they don't work off greed they are out of business.
The real problem with games build around item mall is that there is a tendency to make people NEED those items in orders to progress at a decent pace, and some games go so far as to make them a necessity to progress at all. This problem becomes even worse when considering if a game is based on PvP, and the item mall tips that balance with the items.
Games that does both subscription and itemmall is another story all together since the issue can get a bit more complex, and sometimes it is justifed. Such as if a game charge low subscription rate, but charge for addtional services that the subscription simply does not cover. (I.E Race, class, or server changes) Let's not go too deep into this one since it is not exactly on topic.
Has anyone in these 24 pages of threads mentioned League of Legends yet?
I've mentioned it a good many times.
The reason it works so well is that Champion Unlocks are designed to be balanced with each other -- skill always trumps payment. Being able to unlock them all through free play isn't even that important. Skill always trumping payment is.
The "let's think logically about whether item shops can work" argument sort of bounces off the people who've only experienced bad item shops though.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Has anyone in these 24 pages of threads mentioned League of Legends yet?
I've mentioned it a good many times.
The reason it works so well is that Champion Unlocks are designed to be balanced with each other -- skill always trumps payment. Being able to unlock them all through free play isn't even that important. Skill always trumping payment is.
The "let's think logically about whether item shops can work" argument sort of bounces off the people who've only experienced bad item shops though.
Are you quite certain that skill and MMO belong in the same sentence?
Its been my experience that time, rather than skill is the key component of all too many of these games. If you have 8-10 hours a day to throw at the game, you are going to do MUCH better than someone who only has 2 hours. Which for those who value their money more than their time appears to be the point. Others value their time more highly than their money. Which is one of the factors that make item shops profitable. Now before the hysterics start about "by passing content", or other such nonsense(such as "fairness") starts up, keep in mind its all about entertainment. If you don't like some aspect of a game, don't play it.
Item malls seem to have been very good to DDO.....
Don't fool yourself, developers of sub-based games want to make money as badly as item mall developers. Greed is the motivation for both.
Many in the gaming community have created a religion based upon a developer-god who doesn't exist. I see many infer that somewhere out there is a developer, who has no desire to make money, who only desires to create the best game which will satisfy all customers. This mythic developer sacrifices all for his or her ART, like a modern-day Van Gogh. This developer rejects ideas that will ruin the games vision for a sacrifice which will ensure the games financial security. The true believers know that in this way the game WILL in fact make money - despite business models, focus groups or tried-and-true industry techniques. While others of the faith could not care less if the game attracts customers- the general populace wouldn't understand this game. This member of the faith apparently believes the god-like developer has unlimited funds for maintaining this perfect game, whether it makes money or not - he is an artist, who will go into financial ruin if called for, just to keep Utopia alive.
Item Malls are good if they keep game developers employed and making games, the more games, the more professionals in the industry, the more consumers who can financially support this genre is a GOOD thing.
Personally, I prefer p2p games. I also see the trends shifting. All I want as a gamer is a good game, a fun game, a compelling game. Although most that have fit that category for me are p2p, I am open to a new model as long as it fits my criteria: good, fun, compelling.
Does it have to be a sandbox? No it has to be fun.
Does it have to be skill based? No it has to be fun.
Does it have to be linear theme park? No it only has to be fun.
Does it have to be P2P? No it has to be fun.
Does it have to be F2P? No - fun.
Let us stop letting the features a game has define what fun is.
There are good sandbox games and bad, there are good f2p games and bad, there are good theme-parks and bad, etc. etc.
Let us stop demanding specific features to define our fun, and instead demand fun over features.
Short answer to OP:
Would you rather play a P2P game that was insanely boring or would you choose an Item Mall game that was insanely fun?
Item malls are very usual for a F2P game, since it's a free, the company only gain from their cash shop.. which is acceptable for the players like me.... in f2p we have a choice whether if we want to use a item mall or not, like in Atlantica online, for me earning gold in game is easier rather than the other games like Flyff it's very hard to earn in game money,.. And also, there's a lot of activity that you can do in AO that's why even though for some, Item mall items are very expensive... That's why I prefer farming and doing FL in game so I can support my necessity in the game and not spending real money...
I dont' really want to play the game with anyone that can't afford or won't pay the subscription fee. I'm glad there are F2P games for you to play, but I'd rather play a game that you can't play.
It's alright, it doesn't affect me at all, we have our own preference on choosing a game.... if you don't like f2p it's fine because it was your choice anyway.. at least I'm happy with what I'm playing right now and it's far more important.. Item mall are not good for those who spend too much without getting what he wants...
Item malls seem to have been very good to DDO..... Don't fool yourself, developers of sub-based games want to make money as badly as item mall developers. Greed is the motivation for both. Many in the gaming community have created a religion based upon a developer-god who doesn't exist. I see many infer that somewhere out there is a developer, who has no desire to make money, who only desires to create the best game which will satisfy all customers. This mythic developer sacrifices all for his or her ART, like a modern-day Van Gogh. This developer rejects ideas that will ruin the games vision for a sacrifice which will ensure the games financial security. The true believers know that in this way the game WILL in fact make money - despite business models, focus groups or tried-and-true industry techniques. While others of the faith could not care less if the game attracts customers- the general populace wouldn't understand this game. This member of the faith apparently believes the god-like developer has unlimited funds for maintaining this perfect game, whether it makes money or not - he is an artist, who will go into financial ruin if called for, just to keep Utopia alive. Item Malls are good if they keep game developers employed and making games, the more games, the more professionals in the industry, the more consumers who can financially support this genre is a GOOD thing. Personally, I prefer p2p games. I also see the trends shifting. All I want as a gamer is a good game, a fun game, a compelling game. Although most that have fit that category for me are p2p, I am open to a new model as long as it fits my criteria: good, fun, compelling. Does it have to be a sandbox? No it has to be fun. Does it have to be skill based? No it has to be fun. Does it have to be linear theme park? No it only has to be fun. Does it have to be P2P? No it has to be fun. Does it have to be F2P? No - fun. Let us stop letting the features a game has define what fun is. There are good sandbox games and bad, there are good f2p games and bad, there are good theme-parks and bad, etc. etc. Let us stop demanding specific features to define our fun, and instead demand fun over features. Short answer to OP: Would you rather play a P2P game that was insanely boring or would you choose an Item Mall game that was insanely fun?
Exactly. Fun comes first, last and in the middle. If I game is fun, I don't care what their business model is. P2P, F2P or some hybrid. You nailed the perspective of the True Believers exactly. The One True Game(tm) doesn't exist. Nor is it ever going to. Its a figment of the True Believers fevered imaginations. That also explains the violent response one gets when one dares to question the Gospel of the One True Game(tm).
of caurse it has been good to ddo!you access the game and leave when you want get only what you want etc
asia isnt dum !just try to think like them for 2 second,your with friends your freinds call you and say hey dude lets play wowna men cant i didnt buy the whole game dont have the money and cant pay the monthly and on top of that dont have the computer.
so your an asian and suggest !ok lets go ang out to the net cafe play a while so you got there play on the net cafe computer
(no computer cost)you start playing perfect world ,after a while your chick say hey honey check this thing its so cute
its friday you want her to be happy so you buy the item then while there you browse the store and find this very cool looking mount the sign say 1 day sale only .thats how it goes there they dont need to buy computer dont nned to buy game they just buy item and service .its not cheapper but its easier to pay in small amount of money when you can then buy item you can afford
f2p is a very good system,yes some week they dont sell other week they do sell ,if they havent sold anything it means the
salesmen was a poor salesmen .like you dont sell donut to a diabetic lol.or a pizza to a girl that has colesterol.
I agree that item malls are not an attractive part of the MMO world. I believe this is the same as buying gold for games as well. I play Ryzom because this game is devoid of these unattractive features. I have just grown too bitter toward games that require you to spend more money to be a superior player. I'd prefer to get stronger under my own strength.
I agree that item malls are not an attractive part of the MMO world. I believe this is the same as buying gold for games as well. I play Ryzom because this game is devoid of these unattractive features. I have just grown too bitter toward games that require you to spend more money to be a superior player. I'd prefer to get stronger under my own strength.
To each their own. But to me, ones money is a natural expression of ones own strength.
I agree that item malls are not an attractive part of the MMO world. I believe this is the same as buying gold for games as well. I play Ryzom because this game is devoid of these unattractive features. I have just grown too bitter toward games that require you to spend more money to be a superior player. I'd prefer to get stronger under my own strength.
To each their own. But to me, ones money is a natural expression of ones own strength.
That's fine, as long as you distinguish between in game, and in real life.
It when you mix the two that you destroy the immersion for me.
What you are saying would be like if a Black Belt or Navy Seal in real life had an advantage in combat in the game.
In game money should give you in game strength, the ability to buy better weapons, craft things, build cities, buy space ships, etc.
Real life money should do the same. In real life.
But real life money for in game strength?
But farming at your real life office (working for money) for in game items? Ewwww. I"m stronger in the game because in real life I"m a Doctor? Ewwwww.
I agree that item malls are not an attractive part of the MMO world. I believe this is the same as buying gold for games as well. I play Ryzom because this game is devoid of these unattractive features. I have just grown too bitter toward games that require you to spend more money to be a superior player. I'd prefer to get stronger under my own strength.
To each their own. But to me, ones money is a natural expression of ones own strength.
That's fine, as long as you distinguish between in game, and in real life.
It when you mix the two that you destroy the immersion for me.
What you are saying would be like if a Black Belt or Navy Seal in real life had an advantage in combat in the game.
In game money should give you in game strength, the ability to buy better weapons, craft things, build cities, buy space ships, etc.
Real life money should do the same. In real life.
But real life money for in game strength?
But farming at your real life office (working for money) for in game items? Ewwww. I"m stronger in the game because in real life I"m a Doctor? Ewwwww.
You mean the fact that some people have no jobs and can play MMOs all day while you can only play at night for 2 hrs will destroy the immersion for you?
You mean that you have to end the raid because the raid leader's wife is yelling at him will destroy the immersion for you?
If so, you better quite MMO now. It is connected to the real world because real world people are playing it.
Exactly. Fun comes first, last and in the middle. If I game is fun, I don't care what their business model is. P2P, F2P or some hybrid. You nailed the perspective of the True Believers exactly. The One True Game(tm) doesn't exist. Nor is it ever going to. Its a figment of the True Believers fevered imaginations. That also explains the violent response one gets when one dares to question the Gospel of the One True Game(tm).
Yeh. I don't think most people care as long as the game is entertaining. In fact, the success of DDO (and Maple Story, and many other games) is pretty good evidence that there is a large enough audience out there for item mall games.
I agree that item malls are not an attractive part of the MMO world. I believe this is the same as buying gold for games as well. I play Ryzom because this game is devoid of these unattractive features. I have just grown too bitter toward games that require you to spend more money to be a superior player. I'd prefer to get stronger under my own strength.
To each their own. But to me, ones money is a natural expression of ones own strength.
That's fine, as long as you distinguish between in game, and in real life.
It when you mix the two that you destroy the immersion for me.
What you are saying would be like if a Black Belt or Navy Seal in real life had an advantage in combat in the game.
In game money should give you in game strength, the ability to buy better weapons, craft things, build cities, buy space ships, etc.
Real life money should do the same. In real life.
But real life money for in game strength?
But farming at your real life office (working for money) for in game items? Ewwww. I"m stronger in the game because in real life I"m a Doctor? Ewwwww.
You mean the fact that some people have no jobs and can play MMOs all day while you can only play at night for 2 hrs will destroy the immersion for you?
You mean that you have to end the raid because the raid leader's wife is yelling at him will destroy the immersion for you?
If so, you better quite MMO now. It is connected to the real world because real world people are playing it.
No, I don't mind if someone plays all day and I can only play 2 hours.
They will reach the level cap, and so will I. We will do the same content to get there whether if takes a week, a month, or a year.
You and I pick strawberries.
We can both pick 100 strawberries in an hour.
I pick for one hour, I have 100 strawberries.
you pick for 100 hours, and you have 10,000 strawberries. the farmer says you can't pick strawberries in that patch any more (level cap).
When I have picked for 100 hours, I will have 10,00 strawberries too, and the farmer will tell me I can't pick strawberries there any more either, same as you.
Comments
I am okay with games that are free to play having item shops, like you said they have to pay the bills and make a profit. I will not play a P2P game that has an item shop though. I should get all of the game if I am buying it and paying monthly for it.
I think you illustrated why Item Mall shops aren't fair to all players.
But I guess it's a difference of an opinion on whether you want your game to be progressed through time or money.
I think you illustrated why Item Mall shops aren't fair to all players.
But I guess it's a difference of an opinion on whether you want your game to be progressed through time or money.
That's almost it, but not quite. Both are "fair" if you enjoy playing by those rules. That's up to the player, and it's subjective. There is no right answer. Either you FEEL it's fair, or you don't. No dev, no other player, can argue you into feeling a game is fair.
But it's not just time versus money.
It is the fact that time and money on F2P are mixed.
I would not mind a F2P if you could not earn ANYTHING in the game. EVERYTHING had to be purchased.
Then, every level 10 would have spent say, 25 dollars. EVERY level 25 would have spent 50 bucks.
Just like in P2P EVERY level 10 has completed about 50 quests, and they took about 30 hours to do.
It's the disparity that I don't like.
IN a F2P SOME players spend 50 bucks, SOME players did not. SOME players took 50 hours to get to level 25, some took 5 hours.
I like everything the same for everyone in the game.
Either ALL money, or ALL time. But not a combination of money and time that is different for each player.
In P2P everyone that killed 200 Mobs is level 2. Everyone that completed 50 quests is level 5. What if I don't want to do 50 quests to be level 5? Sorry, everyone is the same. Either you do 50 quests, or you don't get level 5. It takes everyone roughly the same time to do 50 quests. You can't buy any health potions or xp potions to make it go faster.
"everyone roughly the same time" ... NOT TRUE. Take the biggest P2P game ... WOW.
1) If you have have a L80 toon and tons of emblems, you can buy account bind "heirloom items" that give a new toon 20% (2 items for 10% each) xp boost. So players with L80 toons beat out new players. You can also give your L68 toon flying ability in Northend which makes you level faster.
2) If you are in a power guild (or have enough high level friends), they can carry you to max level FAST by going into a high enough level dungeon, you tag everything and they kill for you. I think that is how the leveling record was broken when WOTLK came out.
1 - Those are options gained in-game, by playing the game. The only way players who have played more won't have some advantage is to take out all advancement. Then - it's not an RPG anymore.
2 - No, really? Being in a guild or having friends is an advantage in an MMORPG? There is nothing wrong with that principle. I don't agree with run-throughs, and they should be eliminated, but players who work with other players should have advantages.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Even P2P games have some options. You can go and grind mobs or do quests, solo or group.
I personally just think it is unfair that if you pay the game gets easier. You get better loot and level faster if you pay for it.
DDO however did think this through and did a very good job with balancing things.
To me it just seems odd that they can't get enough money on P2P, they should just raise the monthly fees instead of trying to squeeze money out from the players for everything, like character transfers, name changes, appearance gear, XP pots and so on.
F2P games is a different matter, you can just choose to play one of them but I want everything included in my monthly fees, and I am prepared to pay $20 or more if it is needed for that.
Even P2P games have some options. You can go and grind mobs or do quests, solo or group.
I personally just think it is unfair that if you pay the game gets easier. You get better loot and level faster if you pay for it.
DDO however did think this through and did a very good job with balancing things.
To me it just seems odd that they can't get enough money on P2P, they should just raise the monthly fees instead of trying to squeeze money out from the players for everything, like character transfers, name changes, appearance gear, XP pots and so on.
F2P games is a different matter, you can just choose to play one of them but I want everything included in my monthly fees, and I am prepared to pay $20 or more if it is needed for that.
I think most people would pay a bit more in monthly fees for a good game. At the same time I think companies know that a lot of gamers have no self control in their need to be super uber. At the end of the day cash shops probably will see more revenue than an extra $5 a month. Some of these guys would pay that much in xp potions alone not to mention pets and whatever other things said shop may offer.
It would still be a RPG game but a very different one.
And I do actually believe that you can make a MMO that is only based on gear and no XP. It would actually be pretty interesting, you could make it pretty advanced and do al the stuff levels do, like giving more HP and even giving skills and spells. Let mages have the room for a certain number of scrolls so he can cast a different spell for each scroll he uses. Something similar with skills and have some stuff to be dropped while you get other by completing quests.
It is actually not that different from a XP based system if you think about it.
I agree with you on the second point, there should be advantages to be in a guild or some other kind of social group (Kingdom, fellowship, adventurer group, whatever).
Even P2P games have some options. You can go and grind mobs or do quests, solo or group.
I personally just think it is unfair that if you pay the game gets easier. You get better loot and level faster if you pay for it.
DDO however did think this through and did a very good job with balancing things.
To me it just seems odd that they can't get enough money on P2P, they should just raise the monthly fees instead of trying to squeeze money out from the players for everything, like character transfers, name changes, appearance gear, XP pots and so on.
F2P games is a different matter, you can just choose to play one of them but I want everything included in my monthly fees, and I am prepared to pay $20 or more if it is needed for that.
Raising prices causes all too many people to go into hysterics. I suspect that the transition of DDO to its current business model was an act of desperation, and if it hadn't worked out as well as it has, they would have pulled the plug. I have no problem paying for games that I enjoy. P2P or F2P with a cash shop is all the same to me, as long as I enjoy it.
I don't like them, you don't like 'em, plenty of people who do like them. No need to wrap your head around the WHY.
item mall mmorpg !lol perfect world make at least as much as wow in a year !that speak by itself
the thing is game p2p arent that popular there because they feel same as us too easy
hence the reason why they like grind.when they got say an x endgame piece of gear they wont see server full of them .
Has anyone in these 24 pages of threads mentioned League of Legends yet? While not a MMO, it seems to be getting by with an almost purely cosmetic item mall or just convience unlockables (that you can get in game through normal play). It's a perfect example of how an item mall could be good for a game and it's perhaps the only example. Hopefully more developers follow suite.
People will pay for cosmetic features to support free games for others just like people will give to charities. The added bonus of looking good and being able to show off you supported the developer is just a bonus. Developers need to stop trying to milk every penny from each sucker and kid and instead focus on getting more paying customers into their games.
What is so hard to understand about itemalls? Simple change between subscription and online shop, yes it is greed, but if they don't work off greed they are out of business.
The real problem with games build around item mall is that there is a tendency to make people NEED those items in orders to progress at a decent pace, and some games go so far as to make them a necessity to progress at all. This problem becomes even worse when considering if a game is based on PvP, and the item mall tips that balance with the items.
Games that does both subscription and itemmall is another story all together since the issue can get a bit more complex, and sometimes it is justifed. Such as if a game charge low subscription rate, but charge for addtional services that the subscription simply does not cover. (I.E Race, class, or server changes) Let's not go too deep into this one since it is not exactly on topic.
I've mentioned it a good many times.
The reason it works so well is that Champion Unlocks are designed to be balanced with each other -- skill always trumps payment. Being able to unlock them all through free play isn't even that important. Skill always trumping payment is.
The "let's think logically about whether item shops can work" argument sort of bounces off the people who've only experienced bad item shops though.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I've mentioned it a good many times.
The reason it works so well is that Champion Unlocks are designed to be balanced with each other -- skill always trumps payment. Being able to unlock them all through free play isn't even that important. Skill always trumping payment is.
The "let's think logically about whether item shops can work" argument sort of bounces off the people who've only experienced bad item shops though.
Are you quite certain that skill and MMO belong in the same sentence?
Its been my experience that time, rather than skill is the key component of all too many of these games. If you have 8-10 hours a day to throw at the game, you are going to do MUCH better than someone who only has 2 hours. Which for those who value their money more than their time appears to be the point. Others value their time more highly than their money. Which is one of the factors that make item shops profitable. Now before the hysterics start about "by passing content", or other such nonsense(such as "fairness") starts up, keep in mind its all about entertainment. If you don't like some aspect of a game, don't play it.
Item malls seem to have been very good to DDO.....
Don't fool yourself, developers of sub-based games want to make money as badly as item mall developers. Greed is the motivation for both.
Many in the gaming community have created a religion based upon a developer-god who doesn't exist. I see many infer that somewhere out there is a developer, who has no desire to make money, who only desires to create the best game which will satisfy all customers. This mythic developer sacrifices all for his or her ART, like a modern-day Van Gogh. This developer rejects ideas that will ruin the games vision for a sacrifice which will ensure the games financial security. The true believers know that in this way the game WILL in fact make money - despite business models, focus groups or tried-and-true industry techniques. While others of the faith could not care less if the game attracts customers- the general populace wouldn't understand this game. This member of the faith apparently believes the god-like developer has unlimited funds for maintaining this perfect game, whether it makes money or not - he is an artist, who will go into financial ruin if called for, just to keep Utopia alive.
Item Malls are good if they keep game developers employed and making games, the more games, the more professionals in the industry, the more consumers who can financially support this genre is a GOOD thing.
Personally, I prefer p2p games. I also see the trends shifting. All I want as a gamer is a good game, a fun game, a compelling game. Although most that have fit that category for me are p2p, I am open to a new model as long as it fits my criteria: good, fun, compelling.
Does it have to be a sandbox? No it has to be fun.
Does it have to be skill based? No it has to be fun.
Does it have to be linear theme park? No it only has to be fun.
Does it have to be P2P? No it has to be fun.
Does it have to be F2P? No - fun.
Let us stop letting the features a game has define what fun is.
There are good sandbox games and bad, there are good f2p games and bad, there are good theme-parks and bad, etc. etc.
Let us stop demanding specific features to define our fun, and instead demand fun over features.
Short answer to OP:
Would you rather play a P2P game that was insanely boring or would you choose an Item Mall game that was insanely fun?
I dont' really want to play the game with anyone that can't afford or won't pay the subscription fee. I'm glad there are F2P games for you to play, but I'd rather play a game that you can't play.
It's alright, it doesn't affect me at all, we have our own preference on choosing a game.... if you don't like f2p it's fine because it was your choice anyway..
at least I'm happy with what I'm playing right now and it's far more important.. Item mall are not good for those who spend too much without getting what he wants... 
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm138/Syreange/mysigcopy-1.jpg
Exactly. Fun comes first, last and in the middle. If I game is fun, I don't care what their business model is. P2P, F2P or some hybrid. You nailed the perspective of the True Believers exactly. The One True Game(tm) doesn't exist. Nor is it ever going to. Its a figment of the True Believers fevered imaginations. That also explains the violent response one gets when one dares to question the Gospel of the One True Game(tm).
of caurse it has been good to ddo!you access the game and leave when you want get only what you want etc
asia isnt dum !just try to think like them for 2 second,your with friends your freinds call you and say hey dude lets play wowna men cant i didnt buy the whole game dont have the money and cant pay the monthly and on top of that dont have the computer.
so your an asian and suggest !ok lets go ang out to the net cafe play a while so you got there play on the net cafe computer
(no computer cost)you start playing perfect world ,after a while your chick say hey honey check this thing its so cute
its friday you want her to be happy so you buy the item then while there you browse the store and find this very cool looking mount the sign say 1 day sale only .thats how it goes there they dont need to buy computer dont nned to buy game they just buy item and service .its not cheapper but its easier to pay in small amount of money when you can then buy item you can afford
f2p is a very good system,yes some week they dont sell other week they do sell ,if they havent sold anything it means the
salesmen was a poor salesmen .like you dont sell donut to a diabetic lol.or a pizza to a girl that has colesterol.
I agree that item malls are not an attractive part of the MMO world. I believe this is the same as buying gold for games as well. I play Ryzom because this game is devoid of these unattractive features. I have just grown too bitter toward games that require you to spend more money to be a superior player. I'd prefer to get stronger under my own strength.
www.ryzom.com
To each their own. But to me, ones money is a natural expression of ones own strength.
To each their own. But to me, ones money is a natural expression of ones own strength.
That's fine, as long as you distinguish between in game, and in real life.
It when you mix the two that you destroy the immersion for me.
What you are saying would be like if a Black Belt or Navy Seal in real life had an advantage in combat in the game.
In game money should give you in game strength, the ability to buy better weapons, craft things, build cities, buy space ships, etc.
Real life money should do the same. In real life.
But real life money for in game strength?
But farming at your real life office (working for money) for in game items? Ewwww. I"m stronger in the game because in real life I"m a Doctor? Ewwwww.
To each their own. But to me, ones money is a natural expression of ones own strength.
That's fine, as long as you distinguish between in game, and in real life.
It when you mix the two that you destroy the immersion for me.
What you are saying would be like if a Black Belt or Navy Seal in real life had an advantage in combat in the game.
In game money should give you in game strength, the ability to buy better weapons, craft things, build cities, buy space ships, etc.
Real life money should do the same. In real life.
But real life money for in game strength?
But farming at your real life office (working for money) for in game items? Ewwww. I"m stronger in the game because in real life I"m a Doctor? Ewwwww.
You mean the fact that some people have no jobs and can play MMOs all day while you can only play at night for 2 hrs will destroy the immersion for you?
You mean that you have to end the raid because the raid leader's wife is yelling at him will destroy the immersion for you?
If so, you better quite MMO now. It is connected to the real world because real world people are playing it.
Yeh. I don't think most people care as long as the game is entertaining. In fact, the success of DDO (and Maple Story, and many other games) is pretty good evidence that there is a large enough audience out there for item mall games.
To each their own. But to me, ones money is a natural expression of ones own strength.
That's fine, as long as you distinguish between in game, and in real life.
It when you mix the two that you destroy the immersion for me.
What you are saying would be like if a Black Belt or Navy Seal in real life had an advantage in combat in the game.
In game money should give you in game strength, the ability to buy better weapons, craft things, build cities, buy space ships, etc.
Real life money should do the same. In real life.
But real life money for in game strength?
But farming at your real life office (working for money) for in game items? Ewwww. I"m stronger in the game because in real life I"m a Doctor? Ewwwww.
You mean the fact that some people have no jobs and can play MMOs all day while you can only play at night for 2 hrs will destroy the immersion for you?
You mean that you have to end the raid because the raid leader's wife is yelling at him will destroy the immersion for you?
If so, you better quite MMO now. It is connected to the real world because real world people are playing it.
No, I don't mind if someone plays all day and I can only play 2 hours.
They will reach the level cap, and so will I. We will do the same content to get there whether if takes a week, a month, or a year.
You and I pick strawberries.
We can both pick 100 strawberries in an hour.
I pick for one hour, I have 100 strawberries.
you pick for 100 hours, and you have 10,000 strawberries. the farmer says you can't pick strawberries in that patch any more (level cap).
When I have picked for 100 hours, I will have 10,00 strawberries too, and the farmer will tell me I can't pick strawberries there any more either, same as you.
Why would that bother me?