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Business plan and customer retention for MO...
HerculesSAS
Member Posts: 1,272
I would argue, there isn't a plan, and certainly not one for retaining customers.
As sickan said himself (www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2934891#2934891):
IMO they have burnt their bridges. Rushing out a game, not even in a closed beta stage, calling it gold release and everything (well almost) is shitty, why would the subs return? They where promising green forrests before the release but delivered nothing..
Well, im off the hook and will not return. Only chance would be if MO fail which I strongly doubt, But even then I would wait a year or something before DF would feel alil polished, and by then I think the game and company does not exist anymore. No thank you, I'll save my money for better things than subbing for DF!
Granted, he was talking about DF, but if you look at the logic -- it's quite sound for MO. Why would you sub to a game that is being rushed out in a worse state than Darkfall was when it launched?
Putting that aside -- what is the plan for customer retention that SV has? PvP games, sandbox games, no restrictions etc -- do drive a certain type of player (aggressive, immature, etc) to play the game. And it forces people who are also "hardcore" or at least they think they are, to leave the game in droves. You needn't take my word for it -- look at UO for a prime example, or the countless other games that allowed for griefing. EVE solved this in a delicate way by allowing certain play styles to play within different space, so they didn't have to venture out and be put at risk. Of course, the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward, but at the same time, you weren't thrust upon it. You chose it. In MO, you could be sitting in town and get all your stuff stolen. Granted, thievery is buggy right now and imbalanced, but even with balance -- would stealing be disallowed in towns? All you'd need is a gang of thieves to drive a few players from the game -- permanently.
The long and short of this post is, that simply put -- MO has no staying power, it has no business model or business plan other than to "be Ultima Online 2" (and poorly, at that), and it has no method for customer retention due to the design they chose. Most of the game is tedious, and since death comes often it's extremely tedious to run to the "pillars of light" for a resurrection. There's no instant travel, no global banks (which they think will promote caravans but in reality, will just promote people staying near one bank), etc. Sure, for the reality's sake, it may be great. But the formula for success has always been in any MMO, to allow a player to learn the game gradually (EVE even does this), give them options as time goes by, and don't thrust them into situations where they can get griefed regularly.
Feel free to discuss. This is just another reason why I think MO is going to be a train wreck.
Comments
MO may very well end up being a trainwreck like you say. However, if you are an oldschool UO gamer who is looking for a new sandbox game to play, your options are extremely limited. MO is the last sandbox pvp game to be released in the near future. Should we all just go away and wait a couple more years for the next indie company to release one?
What's our alternative? Go back to WOW? Go play LOTRO or WAR? Hey, I hear that AOC has gotten a lot better over the last year! Should we go play that?
No thanks, been there done that, and they aren't for me. I'm done with themepark games.
It's noble of you to try to save us all from wasting our money on MO, but some of us have been playing MMOs for 10+ years and can think for ourselves.
Currently Playing: DAOC Uthgard
Previously Played: UO, DAOC, Shadowbane, AC2, SWG, Horizons, COX, WOW, EQ2, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, Vanguard, Rift, SWTOR, ESO, GW2.
It's not about you wasting your money -- you can feel free, but what will KEEP you in the game? That's the point of the thread -- customer retention. You aren't going to keep paying for a game that is full of hackers (that's going to happen), full of bugs, griefers, and lag, are you? I know the common idea around here is that "they are going to fix that right up!" is going to be pushed, but since they started the closed beta till now, they have only introduced more bugs and problems, without fixing the old ones. So there's lots of different content they add in, and none of it works properly.
Oh, and Darkfall is good if you like MO's concept. I personally don't like Darkfall, but it's better in every single measurable way than Mortal Online. Lag, features, combat, depth, polish, etc.
I'm worn and tired of practically every MMO in the industry. A few hold my attention because they are unique and fill the time, but few are something I feel I can truly dedicate myself to.
When I saw Mortal Online, I decided I would give this a shot. Not so much for what was in the game, but for what was described to me.
As time has gone on in development, patching, and developer discussion... The developers have made good on their plans. I can SEE where they intend to take the game.
I'm not just looking for something to like anymore... I'm liking what I'm seeing and where they intend to take it.
So you will continue to pay just because the developers have a great "vision", and not necessarily the skills to implement them?
As I stated...
I like the progression I have seen, the content they have implemented so far, and the direction they are heading in.
Their "Great Vision" is good and all... but is has been backed by actual work.
While MO may be garbage currently, the "issues"
you list are the exact reason why I even tried MO. If MO were perfect, I wouldn't want to play your vision of it.
I win!!! LOL@U
It's not about you wasting your money -- you can feel free, but what will KEEP you in the game? That's the point of the thread -- customer retention. You aren't going to keep paying for a game that is full of hackers (that's going to happen), full of bugs, griefers, and lag, are you? I know the common idea around here is that "they are going to fix that right up!" is going to be pushed, but since they started the closed beta till now, they have only introduced more bugs and problems, without fixing the old ones. So there's lots of different content they add in, and none of it works properly.
Oh, and Darkfall is good if you like MO's concept. I personally don't like Darkfall, but it's better in every single measurable way than Mortal Online. Lag, features, combat, depth, polish, etc.
If everything you say is correct then I won't stay in MO. Actually I haven't decided whether to buy it or not yet. I'm waiting till the end of beta to decide.
I have also thought about DFO. If I don't like MO I will probably give it a shot.
Honestly it's not really that big if a deal. If I decide to buy MO and waste 50 bucks so be it. I will just add it to the list of other MMOs I have wasted money on recently (WAR, AOC, LOTRO, WOTLK). You guys really take all of this too seriously, they are just games. I probably am taking it too seriously also, since I am wasting my time replying to it all.....
Currently Playing: DAOC Uthgard
Previously Played: UO, DAOC, Shadowbane, AC2, SWG, Horizons, COX, WOW, EQ2, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, Vanguard, Rift, SWTOR, ESO, GW2.
I guess we differ on their work quality, but if that's the case for you then I can respect that.
This guy is a visionary.
i wonder if he also predicted this awesome time of flourishing economy we'r having now.
@ OP. I am not sure if you are trying to get me started or not, either way I am no going to
Yes, I have to eat that up, since I honestly did not think they would survive with what their game was like. But they did, and I am very glad they did because we need more games like this. Still, I have my hopes up, and I enjoy MO more (even though it lacks content and so on compared to DF). It is not just the content, mechanics and so on, I just like the feel beter in MO. What I mean when I said that I did not think it would survive was that I did not like the environment, no long distant view, the cartoonish races - and environment (everything "themeparkish"). Well, I will not write it all here..
I think there is a base for this game as well, and obviously it need some months to be more "complete", just as DF needed.
The great thing is, if they succeed, we have 2 sandbox games to choose from instead of all the themeparks!
So, I guess their business plan is to keep enough players to keep developing the game - so it will be better and get new players in that way! Feels like a pretty basic business model for those indie companies!
This.
So many people on this board are hoping MO will fail. It's sad. There are a lot of gamers who hate themepark MMOs and are dying for a new sandbox game to play. We all understand that this game is going to be released buggy and unfinished......but we would still rather play it then go back to the dreaded themeparks. What exactly is wrong with that? If this game does ever get finished and is successful, it's better for everyone. Maybe then more developers will create sandbox MMOs. I have never understood why people want games to fail.
The problem is that only indie companies are creating sandbox MMOs and they don't have the resources to release them complete and bug free. I'm sure they wish they did. Maybe one day someone will invest the money needed for a proper sandbox to be released. Until then we either play the unfinished sandbox and hope that one day it is finished, or go back to the themeparks.
Currently Playing: DAOC Uthgard
Previously Played: UO, DAOC, Shadowbane, AC2, SWG, Horizons, COX, WOW, EQ2, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, Vanguard, Rift, SWTOR, ESO, GW2.
I am playing MO beta, and I have to say that DF launch was 10 times better.
DF was 90% complete with many bugs
MO is a 60% complete with even more bugs.
On the plus side I have to say that DF engine is the best bar none, it hardly crashes ( I never crashed at all), while MO client crashes every 3-10 minutes
So you get the idea on the state of MO .
Don't get me wrong I don't wanna bring the discussion DF vs MO because quite frankly I have no interest in doing so, these are games which I like both, those are my kind of games so I really want to see MO succeding.
But in all honesty I am not going to spend 50 Dollars for this.
I hope MO is going to survive long enough to reach a decent level of playability.
I am not asking for a coplete and bug free MMO, but something you can actually play without having a nervous breakdown.
I think this is untrue.
People are sick and tired of being shoveled garbage and told it's a steak. The problem with the MMO industry is that we as customers, don't hold companies to any standards, especially upon release. I reject SV and MO because they are everything that developers look at and get a bad reputation from, where Blizzard actually started small, making a game called Lost Vikings and Warcraft which had polish, poise, foresight and went through the "development cycle". They showed this time and time again, by sticking to their guns on how they released games, and putting out good titles on a regular basis.
Now we have people like StarVault who promise the world, deliver a buggy, broken, piece of garbage and say it's the second coming of UO. And we as consumers sit there and say "well I believe in their vision!" The free market works on the principles of weeding out GARBAGE. And if MMO consumers were better principled, we'd get better games -- plain and simple. SV would not be trying to make the huge game they are now, but would instead start out small with a focused game that actually may have worked. Customers would accept or reject them on that basis. And what does it bring for the future? Developers will look at how easy it is to con customers and promise the world again -- hooking people onto their "vision" and delivering a broken piece of garbage, yet again. And it will happen over and over, until customers are willing to say "no", and demand some level of quality.
I work in financial software, and I can tell you if we went through the development process like SV or many other MMOs (that have failed or are about to), we would all be fired. Sorry to say, but I'm just sick of companies making idiots of customers, and paving the way for more to do it on a regular basis.
I think this is untrue.
People are sick and tired of being shoveled garbage and told it's a steak. The problem with the MMO industry is that we as customers, don't hold companies to any standards, especially upon release. I reject SV and MO because they are everything that developers look at and get a bad reputation from, where Blizzard actually started small, making a game called Lost Vikings and Warcraft which had polish, poise, foresight and went through the "development cycle". They showed this time and time again, by sticking to their guns on how they released games, and putting out good titles on a regular basis.
Now we have people like StarVault who promise the world, deliver a buggy, broken, piece of garbage and say it's the second coming of UO. And we as consumers sit there and say "well I believe in their vision!" The free market works on the principles of weeding out GARBAGE. And if MMO consumers were better principled, we'd get better games -- plain and simple. SV would not be trying to make the huge game they are now, but would instead start out small with a focused game that actually may have worked. Customers would accept or reject them on that basis. And what does it bring for the future? Developers will look at how easy it is to con customers and promise the world again -- hooking people onto their "vision" and delivering a broken piece of garbage, yet again. And it will happen over and over, until customers are willing to say "no", and demand some level of quality.
I work in financial software, and I can tell you if we went through the development process like SV or many other MMOs (that have failed or are about to), we would all be fired. Sorry to say, but I'm just sick of companies making idiots of customers, and paving the way for more to do it on a regular basis.
Good post. I agree with most of it. Unfortunately developers never seem to learn. Gamers have been preaching this for years and they still don't seem to get it. After every game failure you think that they will finally learn...but they dont.
I'll still take a buggy broken sandbox over a buggy broken themepark however.
/shrug
Currently Playing: DAOC Uthgard
Previously Played: UO, DAOC, Shadowbane, AC2, SWG, Horizons, COX, WOW, EQ2, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, Vanguard, Rift, SWTOR, ESO, GW2.
Theres a open beta for this game. Open as in anyone can join for free. So, people, try it out and see for yourself, all it might cost you is time (and maybe some frustration).
And Hercules, whats the idea of making a thread with "business plan" and "player retention" in the headline, then say you dont know anything and just delivers another one of your rants about this game? You should really take some time off these forums, its starting to look like an unhealthy obsession to you.
Thanks for the concern about my health, but I only post while I'm at work, and since it's more entertaining than just going through old emails to do no work, I spend plenty of time off these forums. When I'm not at work.
Check my time stamps for posts -- they are only M-F and during working hours for me. Go figure, eh?
Well, I'm not even going to argue since you already have all the answers.
My point is, I want to encourage developers to do things like that so we (I) get rid of all the mainstream themes out there. Even if they try and fails, we can all hope that another company with the right funds, more experience, and more manpower will buy it up and complete it with the manpower and funds necessary.
So, I still want to encourage new companies try their dreams out since the demand is out there. Finally we got some of them to suceed (just look at DFO which obviously is still floating).
I think we can agree on one thing, it is the funds, experience and manpower that are lacking for the indies, but I still embrace them for trying!
Why not try to help them suceed, instead of talking how they are failing? Since you are writing in this parts of the forums, states the fact that you are a sandboxer as well? And you still want MO to fail?
At this point all we can do is wait and see. I've played throughout most of the closed beta, for months now. Many of us closed beta testers did not want the game to go "gold" anytime soon, but it is what it is.
MO has tremendous potential, but at the same time its far from ready for release. Will it crash and burn? maybe. Will it grow into its potential? maybe. at this point I dont know what else can be said, except wait and see.
I will refrain from bashing the game itself and respond to the post title even though the OP got away from the topic himself.
I have followed this game for quite awhile. From a business standpoint I can't see how a individual could think they could build a game from nothing in 2 years. If I take the example of Sigil (made Vanguard). This company had a few well known developers as well as a huge staff compared to starvault. They took over 5 years to release a product and still everyone agrees they released a product way too early. The reward was sony aquires whats left for pennies and all the company disappears along with most the employees jobs.
Even the F2P grinders take years to port their games into a western market and that is mostly just translation stuff.
If this was a huge company such as sony or blizzard maybe they would have the funding to get a new game out in a very short time frame. Still everyone who has studied business knows that adding more people may actually increase the time to compete something.
If they were saying look what we have come help us test but we are a year from release you would even have many of the people slamming this game say much different things. Asking for money I think is what changes many people opinion.
I would really like to see this game succeed but I suspect the only way it will be around in the future is if someone like sony buys up the scraps after they fail. Maybe they can limp along but now they have the added expense of running a game and still paying the developers and the rent.
When true fans of a game like this are reluctant to part with their $50 for a game that may be unfinished how are they every going to tempt the rest of the player base into a game with a open rule set.
Good post! Should be stickied somewhere!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I want a good sandbox, like anybody else. I liked the concept of MO, but there is no cohesive design behind it other than "lets take UO rules and put them into a new game". There is no foresight on their part and for that reason, they *will* fail, it's not even a matter of me wanting them to.
Experience is the key factor in developing anything, nevermind an MMO. These guys haven't shipped a working version of PONG yet, and we are sitting here being "supportive" because they want to make the next UO. I'm sorry, I work in the industry of software development and I'm not going to root on a bunch of inexperienced developers that have no clue about cohesive design or standards in the development process. It makes ME, as a person in that industry, look bad. If every person who had a good idea tried to make a game, and stupid people kept on buying them because they had good ideas, you'd NEVER have a good game -- just a bunch of crappy ones because nobody bothered to get working experience on what they were doing before they set out on their grand scheme.
I offered what little advice I could a long time ago. I told them (and gave them code) to make a new patcher. Their patcher *still* sucks, even after being made by a forum volunteer. I told them to focus on a few aspects of gameplay and ditch the fluff, so that people had incentive to stay, because X feature of the game was *that good*. There are NO good features in the game worth staying for. And I told Henrik that if he wants to make this game, he needs experience on the team, and he flat out told me that it would cost too much to do. And the result is what you have now.
I will bet you money right now though, that no other company will "buy up MO" and try to make it work. It's exactly because there is *NO* business plan around it. It's just a guy who liked UO enough to try to recreate it with his dad's cash. It's a great example of why gamers can't make games.
And before you compare MO to DF, at least Aventurine built their own engine, scaled it to work and support players, it almost never crashes (even during beta), and has 10 times the features than MO during its beta and even more now that it's been out a while. I personally think the game is still boring as the PvP doesn't have enough depth for my tastes, but that's a matter of opinion. The game itself actually plays well and there's real content behind it, with REAL developers who built something from the ground up. Not to mention, they actually staged their beta at the time when -- you guessed it -- the game was actually feature complete for launch. They followed the proper method of development and as a result, you see a polished game even during the beta. Was it boring? Sure. But it all worked, and worked well. Their launch was botched due to their buying process and other factors, but when you were actually IN the game, it played quite well.
I want a good sandbox game in the theme of UO, like many other players. But I also want it to work well, I want a solid business plan around it so I know that I can play it for a while and be vested to it, I want it to have polish on the features that are most important, and I want the design to be thoroughly vetted and thought through so it knows how to take you from a newbie to an advanced player in a PvP world. Yes, I ask for a lot -- but my money will only be earned by those that can deliver it.
For you, as you stated... you demand a lot less and as a result, you will keep getting a lot less. And the more like you that do it, the more of us that will have to stay tuned for horribly developed games by people that have no idea what they are doing, trying to make a quick buck or think that because they are good at PLAYING games, they can make one too. The more people that think like me, you'll see more QUALITY products because the consumers demand them, and the bad ones will be thrown to the curb from the beginning. This is how it works with manufactured goods, and this is how it should work with virtual goods like an MMO. You don't think Ford lost its crown because Toyota sucked, did you? Ford got better because they realized nobody was going to buy their crap if they sold it the way it was. Now they aren't bad, but Toyota's still better. But it moved the chain of quality up a notch for everybody.
Expect less. Get less. Bottom line.
I think the bottom line is that someone who WANTS to support a small indie project like MO should support it. And someone who DOESNT want to support a small indie project like MO shouldn't support it. Why does one side insist that the other side is wrong and try to get them to change their mind? We are all entitled to our own opinions and capable of making our own decisions.
If you think that MO is a waste of time, move along and go play/support something else. Quit trying to save the gaming world by standing on a soapbox and preaching against it on this forum.
Currently Playing: DAOC Uthgard
Previously Played: UO, DAOC, Shadowbane, AC2, SWG, Horizons, COX, WOW, EQ2, LOTRO, AOC, WAR, Vanguard, Rift, SWTOR, ESO, GW2.
Sigh.. Well, yeah that is your statement and I got it and respect it.
Me, I rather see peaple trying (entrepreneurs) new stuff, than people just sitting and doin what they are told day in and day out, complaining about everything. In the last case, there is not much new stuff comming up is there?
All for me...
^
I d agree to that, ppl that buy MO know its from a small team, and over time will learrn from their mistakes, and customers complaints.
besides, when SV go bankrupt its not quite something other developers/wannabe developers, will strife to do too. Now saying when, only because I doubt they will survive, even if they are very honest about what state they release in. atleast Id not be able to play a very undone game for the next 1..2..3..4 or 6 years. before it reaches a state where you can call it a game, especially with DFO around,, being able to go around killing ppl and harvest doesnt make a game....its the most basic features
time may tell me wrong but sure doubt enough will pay for MOs development.....if you do, imo you should be part owner and not a customer...but then others will be more fan of this kind of MMO than me. Especially aint fond of my own race killing me with no penalty (yea I know they got a penalty, but not big enough for own race imo...again flavour I guess)