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Instead of attacking Mobs, the Mobs attack you (Kill Ten Rats)
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
The problem is MMORPG quests. What are they? Pretty much FedEx and KTR (kill ten rats).
You can substitute any Mob for rats. Kill ten wolves, kill ten ogres, etc.
The only other variant I know is collect x, where x is a random Mob drop. Like collect 10 wolf pelts. But when you kill a wolf, sometimes it drops a pelt, sometimes it doesn't, so you just keep killing till you finally get 10 pelts.
I'm not getting super creative here, and trying to replace killing stuff. That's the fun part of the MMORPG, IMO.
But, what if the quest was anything you could think up, and then the Mobs attack you during the quest (which is where the killing stuff comes in).
What are quests? Mostly short stories in the form of NPC dialog. Sometimes they inform you about the lore of the game, important NPC's, sometimes they don't. But most of the time they try to tell a shallow short little story. Sometimes it's just kill ten rats and I'll give you 3 silver pieces, or some boots of crappiness. But most of the time it's some story about rats have overtaken my cellar, please clear out the cellar, or something like that.
But the quest is a direct command to kill x.
So how about this instead? When you do a quest, a set number of mobs spawn and attack you. But killing the mobs isn't the quest, it's just what happens when you do the quest.
For example, the bartender doesn't say, the cellar is overrun with rats, please kill the rats (KTR). Instead, the bartender says I'm short on help. Can you please go to the cellar and bring me more beer?
When you touch the beer after getting the quest, you're attacked by rats. You bring up some beer, the bartender says I need some more, you get more beer, you're attacked by rats, till the quest is done.
So the quest is not Kill X, the quest is Get Beer. The rats are just an impediment to doing the quest.
With this model, yes, you're still killing x, but you're not told ot "Kill X" you're told to do different stuff. Go carve my name on the Big Oak tree in the Enchanted forest, go negotiate a treaty between the Ogres and Trolls, go find me a moonstone, etc., etc.
When you carve on the tree, Ents attack you. When you talk to the Ogres, Trolls attacks you, when you talk to the Trolls, Ogres attack you, when you get the moonstone, bandits attack you, and so on.
Worthwhile, just the same as KTR?
Comments
theres already quests like this
I imagine it's pretty much the same as Kill Ten Rats. Really, I'm more fond of getting in a group and grinding that doing quests.
You just described Escort quests, bub. A lot of games do this.
LOTRO has several quests designed exactly as you describe. You're sent to collect something, you find it, but when you click on it, and surprise, some mobs run in and start beating on you. I like those because they don't overuse it enough that you'd expect it, so the first time you complete those quests you're genuinely surprised and taken off guard for a second.
As the poster above me said, there are some games with this type of model already in place. Another type that Blizzard uses is the Escort Quest, which usually involves random mob attacks.
It's not a bad suggestion though and definitely highlights the fact that, I believe, players are getting tired of the Quest model as it is currently implemented. For me, it's not the kill count that bothers me, but the fact that, as an adventurer setting out to make my place in the world, I end up spending the first half of my year as a glorified exterminator.
The "shallow short little story" is interesting (sometimes) the first time around, but it quickly loses any significance, especially when you see the same story over and over with the number or type of mob being the only difference.
Even now, when I hear the word "quest", I think of the epic struggle I fought through playing Chrono Trigger. That was a quest...to save humanity. Killing 10 rats is nothing more than an often frustrating episode in watching the XP bar go up more.
I NEVER looked at my "To Next Level" when playing (insert famous NES/SNES/PS1 game here). I didn't care because I was enjoying the QUEST!
Sorry...did a bit of ranting there. I'll leave it for my own sake. Any suggestion to change the current model is good in my book though!
"Going Against The Grain Should Be A Way Of Life"
mm! op! i like the idea !but do i see myself playing this:
ok men you got to kite those wolf!but ten have to touch you so you are infected but you have to survive and come back here infected (no heal)so we can find a cure for it!
mm!it might be fun!
What is the difference?
How about a quest like,
for PvP:
Bartender says, "I been trying to get some beer to the locals in town x but this Guild (Players not in your faction) keeps stopping me so go grab your guild and go find this guild and wipe there ass so I can travel safely.
for PvE:
Bartender says, "A bunch of has been no good bastards are trying to destroy my wagons. Take my wagon but bring it back in one piece. "
The mobs attack the wagon and you gotta keep it in tack by repairing it while fighting off mobs.
I'd say there are 4 types of MMO quests, it's nearly impossible to break away from these:
Kill X, Collect (whether from killing or gathering), Fed Ex, and Escort.
I think Blizzard actually has made efforts since TBC to break away from these set quests. While you can consider things like the bombing runs introduced in TBC as part of the Kill X category, it's at least something different from the typical MMO norm and they are some of my favorite quests. At lot of interesting quests involving taking control of vehicles and powerful in game characters were introduced in TBC and further added in WotLK. I know it's hard to change the typical mold and even these quest types could be lumped into one of the four categories, but at least Blizzard made an effort to create (some) unique quests.
the issue of quest is this !in the past quest were epic you had lot of chance to die on every encounter
player whinned those werent important moment so they should be able to grind them mindlessly ,game maker said ok!ok!
so now instead of killing 10 very hard wolf to lvl ,you kill 10 000 very easy mindlessly(grinding)
yep its the sorry state we are in!the best in the futur will be when there are classic server(freaking hard foe at every corner
so no need to kill 10k amount of them when they are very hard to kill
but you are right in one way !there is no scare factor in mmo anymore !like you dont jump out of your skin and your girlfriend beside you dont yell like a banshy when you get surprise attacked
in mortal online tho the scare factor must be intense if you have your headphone on for the game
you caliterally blinded ,it is first person view aND in my book its the only way to bring a scare to player like this:
was i followed by a rogue ,will i be ganked ,is there anyone watching me in the hills etc
only first person view(locked there)can bring this scare
imagine any game your walking in a care suddenly you get attacked if your 3 person view you just turn and you kill mob
but if your first person view the wolf attack from behind hes on your back you got to do a special move to remove him you forget because of the scare factor!
that being said whole game cant be in first person view all the time in this
wow would have the edge !exemple
they send you to aq40 (your playing cataclysm)
but you have to weir a special helmet (first person view only)in aq40 in that instance just adding this small thing so your locked in first person view just made this instance insanelly hard!
countless instance become enjoyable ,but i do not see whole game being played in first person view .i would be sick
that for sure!but mandatory first person view in dungeon i can defenitly dig this tho
Actually, you had to kill 10k very hard wolves in a group , in 1 spot for a few weeks on end. Don't try killing something besdies a wolf, because that wolf offers the best EXP for the level you're at. Killing those goblins over there is much less efficient, so you'll have to kill 20k of them, which means you're wasting your time. Don't try doing it alone either, because thats a REAL waste of time. So you go back to killing those wolves, day after day after day after day, ect, ect. Older MMOs were so damn simplistic and 1 dimensional;)
Wait so instead of just wandering around safe in the woods killing 10 rats, now I have to wander around in the woods watching to make sure I don't stray too far because I could die due to pseudo-random encounters, which don't fit in anywhere at all and completely discourage exploration, all the while trying to find a safe way to get through the woods to get beer or deliver a package?
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The rats are angry and the rats want BEER. Beware the drunken ninja rats.
"In tack" is nothing.
"intact" is a word which means untouched, or unharmed.
Thanks
T
Fusion of Fedex and Grocery-list quests. Damn, I was going for '5 words or less'.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
DDO is all about the quest, any killing you do is just to make it through to the end of a mission.
It's far from perfect though, I think they used this no-senseless-grind setup a little too harshly, since killing in ddo offers no exp unless you have an optional quest for killing those mobs along the way.
World gameplay = crappy quests.
Guild Wars PVE missions should've been the future, tbh. They took all the good teamplay of MMORPGs and combined it with quality story-driven, objective-driven missions. You didn't kill mobs because someone wanted 10 of them dead, you kill them because they were in your way on your path to reach some important storyline-relevant objective.
Sadly, high quality missions and better ability design than any MMORPG weren't enough for the game to be overall more fun than other games out there. Improve GW's controls (and mobility,) give me 16 ability slots instead of 8 (or just a full-on normal class system), and have extended PVE progression, and I would've stuck with GW over any other game. GW's PVP focus and controls were the only things holding it back from being an amazing PVE game.
You can do some similar things with World PVE, it's just 2x harder. Which means either half the quality, half the quantity, or double the dev costs to create the game. And since players obsess over non-instanced world gameplay, they're dealt exactly what they've asked for: low-quality quests.
Things are improving, as they always do. Devs are creating innovative tricks like phasing to hybridize World and Instanced gameplay, which certainly improves things. But everything is improving: meaning that given the same budget an instanced game will always provide a higher quality experience (as long as that experience doesn't rely on player interaction outside the group.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Ok.. k.. I got it... no really this is good.
How about a quest where you have to get a job, and you have to go like sit at a desk for 8 hours of game time per day, when you're done doing this for one week, you get like a reward or something??!!!
OK! Let's hear someone else! These are GREEATT!
And they are even more annoying than fedex or collect x quests because 99 times out of 100 the person / thing you are escorting dyes when something breathes on it.
And they are even more annoying than fedex or collect x quests because 99 times out of 100 the person / thing you are escorting dyes when something breathes on it.
Isn't that want some people want though? Difficulty? That would make it actually hard=)
The biggest problem here is that all MMOs function as a GUI overlay on a D20 skeleton.
The only way you can break out of this trend is to eliminate levels and quests all together and turn it into a true sandbox game where you can do whatever you want within certain boundaries.
I.E. you can choose to kill 10 rats in the Inn's basement if you venture there (remember, no quest). Now, as a twist, if you do kill them, you get a discount rate for the inn's merchandise. Thus you can shape your character according to your needs. Be a Samaritan, do the things that are obviously helpful for the community you live in, reap the rewards. Be a rogue, mug everything that has a pulse, and expect an arrow in the back every time you blink.
It’s not hard to implement this mechanics, it’s quite easy actually. You already have ‘reputation’ gains for killing adverse mobs in lots of MMOs. You’ll do it because you want to do it, not because you have to do it.
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
The bulk of MMORPGs is about killing. Equipment, profession, reputation, all that aims at you beeing able to kill more powerful stuff and not beeing killed that easily yourself. And if 99% of a game is about killing and combat, then it's just natural that 99% of the quests are about combat as well. Anything else would make no sense.
In the end it comes down on the reasons why you are told to kill something. And there it depends on what type of player you are. If you are one of those "oh lots of text, I skip that and just go killing" then you'll get bored pretty quickly of quests, since most of them are basically the same (and have to be in these games). If you read the quests though, it depends on the writing skills and creativity of the designers. If the quest description just says "I'm hungry, kill 5 giraffes so I have food" or "there are 10 spiders in my basement, kill it" then you could skip that as well. If there are however interesting short (or somethig long) stories about quests that suck you in, build up a mood and make you curious on why is that and that happening, then the designers did a good job.
But in the end, it's all about killing, because the games are. Games that are a lot about PvP will have lots of PvP quests (ie WAR). Games that are a lot about crafting will have lots of crafting stuff (FE). If you expect more, you have to wait for more creative games that allow for example terraforming or building stuff.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
I have a different opinion on what a "sandbox" is.
I don't think either of us is correct, just people differ on what they want to see in a sandbox.
IMO, a sandbox has little or nothing to do with your character, but is instead all about your ability to affect the world.
Getting a discount on beer is interesting, but doesn't add any sandbox quality to the game.
The reason being, it only affects YOU, not the game world.
Making beer in the tavern go down or up in price for EVERYONE in the game is a sandbox quality, and much cooler.
I have to agree with Beermangler, sorry.
People expect way too much when it comes to a sandbox. You can't make a game that successfully allows you to affect the world without years of playing the game trying to get to a point you can.
Why? Because you simply can't make a game where everyone can change the world. The biggest reasons being:
1. No one wants everyone to be all-powerful. A lot of people are already hating on SWToR simply because Jedi are a starting class. Imagine if you had more power.
2. All it takes is one asshat to ruin it for everyone. Sure, you have the power to reverse what he did, but that's not the point. The point is that he was able to and you were powerless to stop him because everyone has the same power.
3. If everyone has the same power, the power to change the world, you're not making it a sandbox. You're changing the type of game entirely. You're going from some pseudo-sanbox realm to something completely different, like some sort of Black and White Online or Populous Online...
Are you getting my drift?
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I have a different opinion on what a "sandbox" is.
I don't think either of us is correct, just people differ on what they want to see in a sandbox.
IMO, a sandbox has little or nothing to do with your character, but is instead all about your ability to affect the world.
Getting a discount on beer is interesting, but doesn't add any sandbox quality to the game.
The reason being, it only affects YOU, not the game world.
Making beer in the tavern go down or up in price for EVERYONE in the game is a sandbox quality, and much cooler.
A sandbox is where you can do whatever you want withing the boundaries of the world (the end of the sand box). Trouble is you can NEVER have a sandbox game because you are still bound by the rules and regulations of the programmers. In theory you can choose not to kill the rats or not, but there are consequences for doing or not doing the quest which is all summed up in lines of code that the programmer has predetermined. In the original sandbox game (which coincidentally is called "playing in a sandbox") you are only bound by the limits of your own imagination. Choice does not a sandbox make.
The only thing you're bound by is the fact that it's still a piece of code.
Check out the MUD I'm making!
