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Developers And Executives Are Out Of Touch With Gamers
Dawnherald
Member Posts: 146
As we see the rise of more and more "sandbox" games in the general gaming genre ( they're not really on a level of MMO sandbox, but it is a buzzword often used by marketting executives to evoke images of The Elder Scrolls : Oblivion ), I feel that both developers and executives are out of touch with the gaming market.
Take a look at what players are expecting even in single player games these days, all that is truly wanted is some sort of freedom and reasonable graphics to play the game. And, yet, as people want more and more freedom within games, MMOs are becoming more and more constrictive!
World of Warcraft in vanilla was what I'd count as the perfect level of sandboxness in a themepark game. The world was quite explorable, had lots of secrets, there were quite a few things to do, lots of little interesting items that could often change the pace of a fight, if not the game itself. Essentially, it captured the zeitgeist of what people were looking for in an MMO and expanded upon that when The Burning Crusade came out, even if a little bit of the magic was lost in certain places. Now WotLK seems to have started the dirge to end WoW ( it is, however, not it's swan song, just merely the start of the end ) with a massive loss of freedom and introduction of constrictions for players on how to play the game.
Take a look at all the "themepark" games that've came out since. Players imagined massive worlds, epic adventures, brilliant gameplay. And what did we get instead? Age of Conan and Warhammer Online. They SQUANDERED the lore of the settings with instancing and small zones. And, honestly, I suspect this is the reason they failed. Players will put up with next to anything if there's a promise of secrets or adventure around the corner, and these games lacked that horrendously.
So, yes, what I'm suggesting is that, as these developers and executives try more and more to make "WoW concentrated" is that they're concentrating the wrong thing. It's as if, instead of making orange juice concentrate, I took out all the little bits and tried to sell that as a product. Sure, a few will buy it and enjoy it, but it's just not right, it's not capturing what makes orange juice enjoyable. They're out of touch, and until someone makes and advertises a sandbox game correctly ( it doesn't have to be perfect, just needs to be advertised well ), we're going to be stuck with the bits of the orange juice being forced down our throats, instead.
Comments
Good post, OP. Congrats.
Anyway in the AoC you are wrong. The designers tried on purpose to make a experience as linear as possible, even walking out of his way to add invisible walls to stop people walking outside of the path in mountains.
Good post op. Developers do need take thier time develping games and not putting them out quickly due to budget concerns if at all possible. WAR is a great example that was a victim of all sorts of shenanigans I wont list here.
(DDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH raise plunger in salute to Op's post!)
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
It's not that easy though.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan
Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
You are unfair, they work hard to trick as many people as possible to give them 15 bucks every month.
It's not that easy though.
No, Actually it is that easy.
Many people pull it off everyday.
A game like world of warcraft is the linear stereotype.
I think of sandbox as a game where you can shape things youreself.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/261448/page/5
"I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people."
- Parsalin
It's starting to get sad. I see more out of F2P games than a lot of these P2P games. I don't know, I guess I don't believe developers do it "For the Gamers" anymore. It's just business and that's how it seems to be staying.
Most people are so blind by false hope that their game of choice (let's say they are an avid fan of the IP) that they will lynch anyone that says otherwise and happily pay up the $/per month because they know 6 months down the line the game will be what it was supposed to be at launch.
I'm just rambling now but I am seriously seeing a shift on the developers portion and on the gamers, seems a lot aren't going to take BS from developers anymore which is good. Will it stop them from promising you the holy grail of MMO's, nope.
Spend wisely, good luck.
It's not that easy though.
No, Actually it is that easy.
Many people pull it off everyday.
I disagree, MMO development is not easy.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan
Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
Its not the devs. In fact the devs aren't really devs anymore. They're employees. Publishers backed by investors are calling the shots and they are driven solely by a desire to make money. If I may be allowed a 'dagnabit' moment... back in the day, devs drove the process and their drive was lets make a great awesome game that will make us a lot of money. With investors at the helm the quality of the game is not a secondary, or even tertiary concern. The only concern is to make money. And if you're thinking "But how can they make money with a bad game?" You haven't been paying attention to the shopping habits of your average consumer.
Here is what i think:
1. Devs are retards for listening to people in forums on how to make or modify thier game. Once the company decides on how a game is to be made and run, it stays that way (for the most part). They should not listen to the tiny percent of cry babies that yell the most and loudest.
2. Make games challenging. New games are made for kids who are 6, they are pathetically easy. Look back at all the old MMOs. UO, EQ, FFXI and SWG (i know there are some older ones). Those games got progressively harder and more complex as they were developed. Loss of XP, de-leveling, decay of items, PURE classes and craftsmen, player run economies, replay ability, and true sandbox (like SWG where you dropped into the game and stood there going...what do i do now? figure it out!).
3. Games now toss that little "MMO" on there and what do you really have? A button mashing game, where everyone is a killer who can heal himself or a doctor who can nuke everyone. Everyone can solo "if you want", which really turns into your only choice b/c grouping just falls to side for one reason or another (mainly everyone is max level raiding). Where does that leave you? A RPG with networking. The only real grouping you have left are raids. Great just what everyone wants, another run in the same place we've all been the last 4 months every other night, what fun.
What is needed is something that is a true sandbox with no real restrictions, just an open world with different classes required to do their own specific jobs. Questing, raiding, badge hunting, crafting, dancing or being a doctor is all up to you. Sure, they can make it where you can change jobs with 1 toon like FFXI but the classes cant do everything.
The problem is that people want to be alpha and a jack of all trades. The idea that "freedom" is about everyone being able to do everything even if they cant get a group. Well, that's the reason why we are where we are today and everyday you see a new post about how every new game is a clone that has nothing new to offer but a different skin.
lol are serious !yes they listen!do they ear!hell no they are too busy satisfying the whims of the guy signing their paycheck
even if most game dev know some of the boss decision are suicidaldo you think they will say it ?hell no !boss is right boss is always right ,he doesnt yel he argument etc etc etc!
if game dev had listened to forum every mmo would be 64 bit and probably would have been since 2006 lol.they didnt ear anything you or me said!
Honestly I feel, while I play WoW wannabe's, like I am getting the lame generic off the shelf version of a product. Like you said it seems like a quick hack. Like they had some massive program that constucts games for them but puts together a whole bunch of garbage that sucks.
No one gets it, and until they do we are stuck with nothing more then the 5 year old lame excuse for an MMORPG that WoW is now.
Do not try to be a great gamer, just be a gamer. Cause, I don't care how good you are anyway.
Devs are not out of touch with Gamers.Some Gamers are out of touch with the fact style of game they want is not the style of the masses want.
It seems to me that " sandbox " games are labeled as such because the devs / whoever think its a free ticket of the game being void of content. That in turn makes the game really really really pathetic. A ' Sandbox ' game to me is a game that offers both worlds and choice.
I myself dont view UO any different than I view WoW.. I enjoyed crafting more with UO than I did with WoW but at the same time I enjoyed exploring in WoW more than I did in UO. I like the skills system that UO offered but IMO it did it wrong along with all the other games that copied it. Games like Kingdom of Drakkar and Legends of Kesmai did the skills system the right way.
the only time you ll get new techno or other ways to do game is when blizzard release it or f2p from asia release it
but no big company in english country will risk it!
SInce developers and exec are after your money, I would be very surprized if they were not going to great lengths to find out what gamers want - and give it to them (at a cost).
Unfortunately, this is unlike to keep forum posters happy, who in my experience are rarely "typical" gamers.
To paraphase a poster in the WAR forums; "I logged on for three minutes ... and decide it was crap". Most MMO players have a bit more attention span. Now WAR has it good point and it less good points, but generally it is a solid game. It could be improved by more content and classes, and it follows and well trod path (with a few excellent new ideas like public quests). Now I wanted all the Warhammer armies at launch, and I wanted them to all be in conflict with each other - and the ruddy devs didn't do it !!!
..and this cuts to core of the problem I feel. What we want in a game is everything, now; and in a way so that we will always be the top dog too. Clearly un-achiveable, and clearly unlike to make any money for the companies.
Take LoTR, very good at working out exactly what its players are moaning about, and fixing it. Also very good at adding feature that it players enjoy. Again this leads to a solid game, with a good player bases (and income).
Do we see a lot of games that really don't hit the mark? Well certainly Star Trek is getting considerable criticism, but it is early day so far; and again, a lot of the un-popular decision do appear to be based around game mechanics and getting the game out in a short space of time (not desirable but understandable).
At the end of the day, if Devs etc are out of touch, then players won't part with their cash to play the games. The Devs create a killer game, players will flock to it, and helpfully suggest improvements. The difficult bit is finding the gold nugget of "advice" in the stream of hostile comment. Paricularly in general forums where posters often have very odd agenda; I often think WAR had to create its own forum so it could concentrait on listing to what it players were saying.
If you want to make billions like WoW then make a game like those in the movie "Gamer" just without using real people, and of course setting it not in a real world environment but in a virtual one.
I guarantee people will flock to it like a junkie who badly needs a fix.
Do not try to be a great gamer, just be a gamer. Cause, I don't care how good you are anyway.
mm! war was popular at lunch !are you telling me all the player that left from there and went back to wow (wich they were so tired of seeing they couldnt stand)made a mistake lol!no at lunch there WAS a lot of serious issue!all the player that left cant be wrong lol even if war wished it had been.same thing for age of conan a big crowd of gamer baught it '
so many in fact that aoc deactivated dx10 (player were furious)with reason they buy a dx10 title that is just a dx9 title lol
and countless other issue.im sorry but the fact is the one that chose to release back then released too early
check now cataclysm is coming soon .so lot of game will try to release before wow because after it will be very close to gw2
and guild wars 2 will sell 2 million copy in the first month easy .so company are stuck
they release early or they release mid year next year.often the boss say hell no i cannot afford to wait a year since the game is ready lets lunch .but it wasnt ready but dev couldnt say that to the boss he might get fired so nobody speak and they lauch
the countless of game that needed at least 6 month of polish before being ready!
What you describe isnt what define a sandbox.
Classes is clearly linear. Questing as per todays definition, is linear.
Groups are a matter of choice, the lack of it limit the possibilies.
If by raiding you refer to "go into instance Z and kill boss X, then wait for it to respawn", then that is linear.
Sandbox is a metaphor.
Imagine a little guy sitting in the sandbox with a bucket and a plastic spade.
He builds a sandcastle, decide to change it after looking at it.
Then the neighbour kid smashes the castle..
Freedom is what sandbox is all about.
A true sandbox is an "enviroment" with a few clearly set rules and borders.
http://www.urbandictionary.com
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4081/the_history_and_theory_of_sandbox_.php
It seems that a lot of people just throw around words without knowing what they mean.
I guess at some point we got a new guy in class. One that werent native. One day he asks someone "what does idiot mean?", the ansver he get is "it means youre cool".
Now every time someone call that guy an idiot, he smiles..
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/261448/page/5
"I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people."
- Parsalin
What you describe isnt what define a sandbox.
Classes is clearly linear. Questing as per todays definition, is linear.
Groups are a matter of choice, the lack of it limit the possibilies.
If by raiding you refer to "go into instance Z and kill boss X, then wait for it to respawn", then that is linear.
Sandbox is a metaphor.
Imagine a little guy sitting in the sandbox with a bucket and a plastic spade.
He builds a sandcastle, decide to change it after looking at it.
Then the neighbour kid smashes the castle..
Freedom is what sandbox is all about.
A true sandbox is an "enviroment" with a few clearly set rules and borders.
http://www.urbandictionary.com
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4081/the_history_and_theory_of_sandbox_.php
It seems that a lot of people just throw around words without knowing what they mean.
I guess at some point we got a new guy in class. One that werent native. One day he asks someone "what does idiot mean?", the ansver he get is "it means youre cool".
Now every time someone call that guy an idiot, he smiles..
we didnt invent the term sandbox
listen to the latest tube from eve.the dude in the video explain their definition and say
WE CALL IT A SANDBOX!
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/view/videos/play/1487/Butterfly-Effect-in-EVE-Online.html
I guess the people that invented the sandbox term were softwere developers that needed to test out stuff.
I know eve have been called a sandbox, so have darkfall. Ive played both for a short time.
In eve you progress by spending real time leveling skills. If thats not linear then i dont know what is.
Another couple of things is the different ship classes and gear. Each ship have different atributes that make it resemble a typical linear MMO. Among some of the most stupid things in the game(my oppinion) is that a big ship cant hit a smaller one properly.
There are alot of rules in that game that strictly control gameplay. The game might be big and complex, but not sandbox.
Darkfall have a slightly different approach. Each skill is leveled when used. Its really slow, and i never got the feeling of getting somewhere.
When some guy decided to pick a fight with me, i never stood a chance. Maybe the gear helps alot, never got to try some goodies.
After spending roughly 50 hours trying to gather crafting materials i still could only craft the most basic things.
Gathering materials is like swimming upsteam in that game. You dont even get wood every time you chop trees, and the skill didnt seem to matter at 50.
About the only good thing i have to say about darkfall is that some people were nice.
Its not sandbox, its as linear as they come.
I dont care what the developers of these games say. Developers say alot of *******
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/261448/page/5
"I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people."
- Parsalin
This
This
It's time the developers stop trying to make games fore EVERYBODY to begin with. Spend a little money on research, find your target market and stop trying to be WoW. WoW is WoW, we don't need another one. You make a game for everyone and you wind up pleasing no one.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
It's kinda a catch 22 these days. Players demand the latest and greatest shaders and physics and eye candy so top end programmers with cutting edge skills are needed. The hay-day of MUDs is gone but they had their glory because the creative types could use simple scripting and fundamental programming to convey their worlds.
Now you need a swat-team of animators, character artists, environment artists, tools programmers, graphic programmers, network programmers, who need to be managed by project managers, leads, who report to the CEO's who report to the investors. The complexity of MMO development has simply boomed to such a degree that people don't want a simple adobe hut, they want the empire state building.
So the projects like LOVE are rare, but welcome. Meanwhile indi people try and make a game like Mortal Online or Darkfall and are hen-pecked to death by people comparing the game to AAA titles backed by huge teams of top end stuff. Sure there's people who are happy with decent graphics but want solid good gameplay, but sadly they're not as vocal or as numerous to represent in terms of sales or users. The majority of users want shiny screenshots to capture their attention. And that takes a big team.
Delivering what people consider "standard" in MMO's today is a laundry list as well. MMO's have just gotten extremly more complex and so have people's expectations of what they want.
Arioc Murkwood
Environment Artist
Sad but true.
This is actually a load of crap, to be perfectly honest.
Why do you think we are steadily getting more "sandbox" games ( going by Wikipedia's definition here, which only really applies to single player games, but the concepts are the same ) in the single-player and small scale multiplayer market? It's because players want freedom, instead of offering freedom, we're getting funnelled down tiny tracks, getting given limiting classes and being told it's the most limitless experience in any game ever.
I mean, look at the "best RPGs" of the last few years, Oblivion, Dragon Age, Fallout 3, the Witcher. They're all very non-linear, even if they do have a storyline to follow, and two of them don't even have classes to choose.