The kung fu style has been there for quite some time. Just emerging in the western world more and more.
Fantasy will remain a great concept. It's not the fantasy that makes most games so boring. It's the almost exact same use of fantasy that makes most games suck.
I actually prefer the medieval or "older" setting. I could, however, do without the elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc. I'd actually like to see a medeival style Vampire MMO.
An Underworld style MMORPG would kick butt too....
Blizzard working on another MMO (even under another IP) is a concept even blizzards top officials have said is idiotic. Mainly because it would mean they were competing against themselves. They already have alot put into the next WoW expansion and releasing another MMORPG would take away from that.
Ha, it's true. Only thing is though that WoW has hit peak and will only do so again once the xpack comes. Everyone shows up for a month + the cost of the content regardless if they plan to stick with it as long as they have. Every xpack to come will be a sure-fire thing like that.
As for making another game, *now* is the time to start. 3 years from now WoW will have slowly dwindled and relied on xpacks to make subs fluctuate momentarily, they are going to need a new game that will draw in even the old WoW players that no longer play because of the trust levels in the product. The timing is very good, and the choice to avoid fantasy even better. Otherwise it really would be competition for WoW, there's just no comparing what would be an 8 year old game to a new one. Does AO compete with AoC? Not in the least, regardless of how you want to bring up if either one sucks or has no players in general.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
The kung fu style has been there for quite some time. Just emerging in the western world more and more.
Fantasy will remain a great concept. It's not the fantasy that makes most games so boring. It's the almost exact same use of fantasy that makes most games suck.
That's my point exactly. Fantasy has been done to death so much now, that there is nothing new left in it. It's gotten to the point you can find almost identicle mobs in different games, same character classes, and almost identicle powers. Nothing has changed but the graphics, title and controls.
If all you have for breakfast is a bowl of Trix. Then switching up to Fruitloops, isn't really changing anything exept for the shape of the cerial. No matter how many times you switch between the 2, eventually you will get sick of fruity type cerials, and eventually crave some Captain Crunch.
It's like saying ... when will publishers stop releasing romance novels, or fantasy novels, or mystery novels, etc... It's a genre, and a popular one; as such it will always be around. I understand being burnt out be certain genres though. Hopefully, we will in the future see a diverse selection of fun MMOs in multiple genres, because the problem really isn't the genre, it's the game. Any game can be good or bad whatever setting it's in.
-Just because it's been done to death, doesn't mean it's going to be done more.
-Original pen and paper RPGS started out fantasy (or so I've heard). It's hard to think about RPG and not think about fantasy.
-Fantasy gives you a lot more flexibility when making an MMO when compared to other Genres.
-EVERYONE knows about Lord of the Rings, and if they don't they either live under a rock or know some other fantasy movie/book/video game franchise.
-Just because you don't like fantasy, doesn't mean no one likes fantasy. I LOVE fantasy, just without the elves, orcs, dwarves and such. (In response to one persons post, you can have fantasy without the goofy races. Blizzards RPG Diablo is definitely fantasy, even without Elves. Tolkien fantasy is a sub genre, not fantasy as a whole.)
So there you go. Whether you like it or not, fantasy will live on as long as we have culture.
Frankly it's more then suprising that while MMORPG's are usually played by the same people who enjoy Anime/Manga, no company has tried securing rights to make a game out of an anime with a huge fan base.
Oh and adding on to my last post... There are hundreds of games (usually China or Korea based) that are so anime heavy it's unbearable. Maybe it's just because I HATE anime. You're argument is that people haven't even bothered to take a look at other genres, and instead just tried to copy blizzards success. Though that may have SOME truth to it, certainly not a lot.
I truly believe that there will be fantasy as long as there is RPGs, and vice-versa.
The kung fu style has been there for quite some time. Just emerging in the western world more and more.
Fantasy will remain a great concept. It's not the fantasy that makes most games so boring. It's the almost exact same use of fantasy that makes most games suck.
That's my point exactly. Fantasy has been done to death so much now, that there is nothing new left in it. It's gotten to the point you can find almost identicle mobs in different games, same character classes, and almost identicle powers. Nothing has changed but the graphics, title and controls.
If all you have for breakfast is a bowl of Trix. Then switching up to Fruitloops, isn't really changing anything exept for the shape of the cerial. No matter how many times you switch between the 2, eventually you will get sick of fruity type cerials, and eventually crave some Captain Crunch.
Parts of it have been done to dead, but it can always improve. It's just not done often.
I'm sure in time we'll have some new game which highly improves upon the genre.
The short version goes something like this - never.
It's like urging writers to do away with all the nonsense of writing about the present day world, silly. 'Fantasy' is one of the most fundamental genres of games and, more broadly, fiction in general. Sure, tendencies change, some things become more popular and some less, but they never disappear.
A more constructive complaint would deal with the fact that stuff just seems so damn similar and repetitive. Hardly anyone seems to give a new twist to the grounded and timeless, albeit tired motif of fantasy. Theres is nothing wrong with having fantasy, it just needs to be reinvented in a fresh new way until the same old 'traditional' interpretation we are perpetually regurgitating nowadays hasn't been done a little while to be taken as fresh anew. We are lagging behind a bit with changes in the popularity cycle, likely due to WoW, it created a 'gravitatonal pull' that attracted too many investors to try and copy its success for too long.
But don't worry too much mate, WoW is nearing the end of its product life-cycle and many new, different ideas in the MMO world are on the horizon already.
P.S. I totally get you with the anime/manga fan comment, while it might be an exaggeration to say that a great deal are fans, but there is certainly a fairly large number and an MMO set in the world of say, Bleach or Naruto will become crazy popular really fast, note that DBZ MMO's have been attempted, but by indie devs.
Indeed, there are so many unique anime/manga inspired worlds with such a great deal of diversity and uniqueness that it does seem rather strange that companies choose not to tap into that wealth of creativity.
-Just because you don't like fantasy, doesn't mean no one likes fantasy. I LOVE fantasy, just without the elves, orcs, dwarves and such.
Not sure how you can say you love fantasy but dislike the races that come with it.. Without the races the game isnt a fantasy game but a medieval one.
?
Just goes to show people think LoTR is the king of fantasy.
Fantasy isn't gay elves, dwarves, dragons and knights running around doing quests and retrieving holy relics like crazy, or some generic "Orcs" which are not a bad idea, but they are being used in way to many fantasy games.
Fantasy can range from high fantasy with elves to a gray world with gray balls bouncing on top of red hippos and pink elephants flying in a yellow sea of pudding, or a more realistic approach in which there is a more creative use of races (Such as serpent people or fish people, or maybe were all just humans, maybe demons are not magical creatures of the underworld, maybe magic in this world is a lot more logical, not just hocus pocus, think how they do spectacular stunts in naruto with scientific explanations, I just love those XD)
Fantasy doesn't have to be geeky let me get my wizard hat, it can be badass roleplaying as well, geez.
Fantasy in general is just a world which isn't limited by the laws of reality.
Seriously, the concept of medival/ fantasy based MMO has been done to death over the past decade and a half. The only alternative genre that has recently emerged to counter this standard of MMORPG games has been the Kung fu style. Yet reality is, its just the same load of excriment packaged in an Asian wrapping. It's time for change... Several years ago, I was an avid WoW player. And I remember one of the cruelest April fools jokes Blizzard ever played on its community. It went something like this.. Log into Blizzards WoW site, on April 1. See a banner ad for a new Blizzard MMORPG, World of Starcraft. Click the link, and they had screenshots of what appeared to be an actual game. The buzz in WoW got so big, in that 1 day it could of been considered the most anticipated game of the decade. Yet at 11:59pm the same banner ad, had a stamp over it, saying April fools, and no longer had a working link. The next day it and all evidence of it was gone. Why was this such a cruel joke?!! because it took 2 things people wanted to see and combined them into 1 amazing game idea. It took the constant Fantasy/medival theme out of the MMO, and replaced it with something with an edgier appeal, Sci Fi. It also used a well known game with an already huge fan base to add to the hype. Since that day, it's kind of sad that nobodies marketing department picked up on that. And instead both gaming dev's and pub's have poored most of there resources into trying to copy WoW's success by sticking with the same theme blizzard used. Currently atleast 70% of MMORPG games are fantasy/ medival based. 15% is Kung fu/ fighting, 10% is sci fi, and barely 5% is superhero (even though that should be considered scifi). None of these new games have even tried to capitolize on any of the current trends. Frankly it's more then suprising that while MMORPG's are usually played by the same people who enjoy Anime/Manga, no company has tried securing rights to make a game out of an anime with a huge fan base. Think of it... How many games with completely new themed worlds could be created if all dev's did was look to gamers other interests?? Anyway, this was just a little brain candy for you to chew on, next time you log into your game, and find yourself bored with the same old, same old...
Shadowrun (a mmo not that microsoft raping IP's making it into a shooter shit)
RIFTS.
*edit Oh hell yeah War 40k would be awesome too. If they could bring a battleground scale to 40k scale battles... wow.
Is it possible? Yeah sure... Is it viable for AAA publishers to sink money into after the death of Tabula Rasa? Not really. Fallen Earth is pretty cool and I'm happy there's some company willing to go against the flow and I hope it grows like Eve has. I can say if some company made a solid MMO based on above IP's I'd be hard pressed not to fanboi it up and say "It'll be epic".
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
As soon as people make some good MMO's about: Battletech GURPS Paranoia Shadowrun (a mmo not that microsoft raping IP's making it into a shooter shit) RIFTS.
I have not played GURPS or Paranoia, but OMG yes to RIFTS, please!
Shadowrun was way cool back in the the early 90's when I was a kid, we had lots of PnP time playing shadowrun and I think it would make a great setting for a MMO too.... as long as it doesn't take itself too seriously!!
As for another non-fantasy idea... there was this video game studio, with financial backing by the CIA, who were creating a game that the CIA was consulting with them on... and rumor had it was a mmo. I think that would be pretty darn sweet...
There isn't that much medival about the current MMOs either, just Tolkien and Forgotten realm copies.
I like fantasy but the stories are usually really badly written, most quests in most games seems to been made by 12 year old kids, even Eragon is a masterpiece compared to it.
Arenanet and 38 studios are right in hiring in real authors and that will hopefully make that part better at least but the OP is right, there are comparably too many fantasy MMOs. How bout a historical MMO instead? A western one? There are many genres that deserves a game at least.
There isn't that much medival about the current MMOs either, just Tolkien and Forgotten realm copies. I like fantasy but the stories are usually really badly written, most quests in most games seems to been made by 12 year old kids, even Eragon is a masterpiece compared to it. Arenanet and 38 studios are right in hiring in real authors and that will hopefully make that part better at least but the OP is right, there are comparably too many fantasy MMOs. How bout a historical MMO instead? A western one? There are many genres that deserves a game at least.
Either I am some sort of prodigy, or mankind has little to no imagination as to have writers that cannot expand their horizons (Anime makes some pretty diverse story lines and worlds compared to these lame MMOs)
If I ever make an MMO, I'd probably have the atmosphere be more ancient age (Jerusalem, Roman, AD), I feel it would be a nice change for a fantasy setting (Plus eliminating, classes, designated priest and tank characters with better gameplay rather than buttonmashing)
I think that there is alot of scope for a sci-fi MMO, Warhammer 40K has a fantastic backstory; and a horror MMO is long overdue. I would think that Eve's spinoff Dust might fit the bill nicely too.
It is surprizing that fastasy has been the main focus for some many big MMO, although I suspect that is probably due to companies trying to replicate WoW success. I mean most player get bored and move on between games and I guess that is what games companies are hoping.
Obviously there is Starwars and Star Trek to buck the trend, as well as City of Heroes; so there are alternatives to Fantasy MMO, if you have had enough.
What would be interesting is a MMO that bucks the trend of current repetive game play.
Originally posted by Shijeer P.S. I totally get you with the anime/manga fan comment, while it might be an exaggeration to say that a great deal are fans, but there is certainly a fairly large number
- Shijeer
I don't really consider it an exaggeration, when in the past 2 yrs, I have seen so many references to some sort of Anime, wiether it be a players name or guild (matter of fact one of the gaming communities I'm a part of was named after an Anime that most of the members don't even watch).
I am glad that many of you agree, it's odd the mainstream dev's don't try and tap into that resource, especially when it's blatently starring them in the face, and being mentioned in their games all the time. Kinda make me realize how much they actually pay attention to gamers interests.
As far as fantasy goes. Yes fantasy and RPG have gone hand in hand for over 30yrs and there is no reason for it to die. But, it has been done to death. I mean how many Fantasy based MMO's have been released in the past 10yrs. If you don't know you can guesstimate by clicking the games list and organizing by genre. I see it as, fiction gave birth to fantasy, and in many ways I consider scifi the evolution of fantasy. I'm not saying to get rid of the genre all together, just help it evolve past the repetitiveness its been lingering in. Think about it, you can keep fantasy in a game but give it more of an edge, by simply saying "what would something like D&D look like if 20,000 years had past in the world?" Or, what would dragons, orcs, fairies, and elves look like if they had time to evolve, and how could you set up a game in that type of world?
Constant redesign of the same concepts and themes, show a sever lack of imagination. Which will only lead to more repetition. And repetition, as every MMOgamer knows, leads to boredum.
Add in the fact that in the past 5yrs, most publishers have decided that figuring out new ways to make a buck is more important then the quality of the product, or happiness of the gamer, means the future of MMORPGs is starring down a bleak, boring, road of crap filled with grinding and déjà vu.
Comments
I actually prefer the medieval or "older" setting. I could, however, do without the elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc.
I'd actually like to see a medeival style Vampire MMO.
The kung fu style has been there for quite some time. Just emerging in the western world more and more.
Fantasy will remain a great concept. It's not the fantasy that makes most games so boring. It's the almost exact same use of fantasy that makes most games suck.
An Underworld style MMORPG would kick butt too....
Ha, it's true. Only thing is though that WoW has hit peak and will only do so again once the xpack comes. Everyone shows up for a month + the cost of the content regardless if they plan to stick with it as long as they have. Every xpack to come will be a sure-fire thing like that.
As for making another game, *now* is the time to start. 3 years from now WoW will have slowly dwindled and relied on xpacks to make subs fluctuate momentarily, they are going to need a new game that will draw in even the old WoW players that no longer play because of the trust levels in the product. The timing is very good, and the choice to avoid fantasy even better. Otherwise it really would be competition for WoW, there's just no comparing what would be an 8 year old game to a new one. Does AO compete with AoC? Not in the least, regardless of how you want to bring up if either one sucks or has no players in general.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
That's my point exactly. Fantasy has been done to death so much now, that there is nothing new left in it. It's gotten to the point you can find almost identicle mobs in different games, same character classes, and almost identicle powers. Nothing has changed but the graphics, title and controls.
If all you have for breakfast is a bowl of Trix. Then switching up to Fruitloops, isn't really changing anything exept for the shape of the cerial. No matter how many times you switch between the 2, eventually you will get sick of fruity type cerials, and eventually crave some Captain Crunch.
It's like saying ... when will publishers stop releasing romance novels, or fantasy novels, or mystery novels, etc... It's a genre, and a popular one; as such it will always be around. I understand being burnt out be certain genres though. Hopefully, we will in the future see a diverse selection of fun MMOs in multiple genres, because the problem really isn't the genre, it's the game. Any game can be good or bad whatever setting it's in.
Here's some reasons why fantasy will NOT die.
-Just because it's been done to death, doesn't mean it's going to be done more.
-Original pen and paper RPGS started out fantasy (or so I've heard). It's hard to think about RPG and not think about fantasy.
-Fantasy gives you a lot more flexibility when making an MMO when compared to other Genres.
-EVERYONE knows about Lord of the Rings, and if they don't they either live under a rock or know some other fantasy movie/book/video game franchise.
-Just because you don't like fantasy, doesn't mean no one likes fantasy. I LOVE fantasy, just without the elves, orcs, dwarves and such. (In response to one persons post, you can have fantasy without the goofy races. Blizzards RPG Diablo is definitely fantasy, even without Elves. Tolkien fantasy is a sub genre, not fantasy as a whole.)
So there you go. Whether you like it or not, fantasy will live on as long as we have culture.
This statement is false.
Not sure how you can say you love fantasy but dislike the races that come with it.. Without the races the game isnt a fantasy game but a medieval one.
This statement is false.
That's my point exactly. Fantasy has been done to death so much now, that there is nothing new left in it. It's gotten to the point you can find almost identicle mobs in different games, same character classes, and almost identicle powers. Nothing has changed but the graphics, title and controls.
If all you have for breakfast is a bowl of Trix. Then switching up to Fruitloops, isn't really changing anything exept for the shape of the cerial. No matter how many times you switch between the 2, eventually you will get sick of fruity type cerials, and eventually crave some Captain Crunch.
Parts of it have been done to dead, but it can always improve. It's just not done often.
I'm sure in time we'll have some new game which highly improves upon the genre.
The short version goes something like this - never.
It's like urging writers to do away with all the nonsense of writing about the present day world, silly. 'Fantasy' is one of the most fundamental genres of games and, more broadly, fiction in general. Sure, tendencies change, some things become more popular and some less, but they never disappear.
A more constructive complaint would deal with the fact that stuff just seems so damn similar and repetitive. Hardly anyone seems to give a new twist to the grounded and timeless, albeit tired motif of fantasy. Theres is nothing wrong with having fantasy, it just needs to be reinvented in a fresh new way until the same old 'traditional' interpretation we are perpetually regurgitating nowadays hasn't been done a little while to be taken as fresh anew. We are lagging behind a bit with changes in the popularity cycle, likely due to WoW, it created a 'gravitatonal pull' that attracted too many investors to try and copy its success for too long.
But don't worry too much mate, WoW is nearing the end of its product life-cycle and many new, different ideas in the MMO world are on the horizon already.
P.S. I totally get you with the anime/manga fan comment, while it might be an exaggeration to say that a great deal are fans, but there is certainly a fairly large number and an MMO set in the world of say, Bleach or Naruto will become crazy popular really fast, note that DBZ MMO's have been attempted, but by indie devs.
Indeed, there are so many unique anime/manga inspired worlds with such a great deal of diversity and uniqueness that it does seem rather strange that companies choose not to tap into that wealth of creativity.
- Shijeer
Not sure how you can say you love fantasy but dislike the races that come with it.. Without the races the game isnt a fantasy game but a medieval one.
?
Just goes to show people think LoTR is the king of fantasy.
Fantasy isn't gay elves, dwarves, dragons and knights running around doing quests and retrieving holy relics like crazy, or some generic "Orcs" which are not a bad idea, but they are being used in way to many fantasy games.
Fantasy can range from high fantasy with elves to a gray world with gray balls bouncing on top of red hippos and pink elephants flying in a yellow sea of pudding, or a more realistic approach in which there is a more creative use of races (Such as serpent people or fish people, or maybe were all just humans, maybe demons are not magical creatures of the underworld, maybe magic in this world is a lot more logical, not just hocus pocus, think how they do spectacular stunts in naruto with scientific explanations, I just love those XD)
Fantasy doesn't have to be geeky let me get my wizard hat, it can be badass roleplaying as well, geez.
Fantasy in general is just a world which isn't limited by the laws of reality.
______________________________________________________________________
I also don't have anything against anime style MMOs, I have everything against fruity anime MMOs (The entire anime MMO cast).
Warhammer 40,000 MMORPG by THQ / Relic.
As soon as people make some good MMO's about:
Battletech
GURPS
Paranoia
Shadowrun (a mmo not that microsoft raping IP's making it into a shooter shit)
RIFTS.
*edit Oh hell yeah War 40k would be awesome too. If they could bring a battleground scale to 40k scale battles... wow.
Is it possible? Yeah sure... Is it viable for AAA publishers to sink money into after the death of Tabula Rasa? Not really. Fallen Earth is pretty cool and I'm happy there's some company willing to go against the flow and I hope it grows like Eve has. I can say if some company made a solid MMO based on above IP's I'd be hard pressed not to fanboi it up and say "It'll be epic".
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I think that developers want to capitalize on the success that WoW has by playing it safe and develop a Medieval fantasy MMO.
they just don't wan to take any chances developing any other setting because of it.
but at the same time there's some developers out there that have develop MMO's not based on Medieval fantasy
at all. not that many,but some is better than nothing.
you're absolutely right.storyline is what developers should be focusing on.after all that's what mediaval fantasy is all about.
I have not played GURPS or Paranoia, but OMG yes to RIFTS, please!
Shadowrun was way cool back in the the early 90's when I was a kid, we had lots of PnP time playing shadowrun and I think it would make a great setting for a MMO too.... as long as it doesn't take itself too seriously!!
As for another non-fantasy idea... there was this video game studio, with financial backing by the CIA, who were creating a game that the CIA was consulting with them on... and rumor had it was a mmo. I think that would be pretty darn sweet...
Hey! I like dragons and spaceships. Oooo...Ooooo how about dragons flying spaceships?!?!
________________________________
Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
There isn't that much medival about the current MMOs either, just Tolkien and Forgotten realm copies.
I like fantasy but the stories are usually really badly written, most quests in most games seems to been made by 12 year old kids, even Eragon is a masterpiece compared to it.
Arenanet and 38 studios are right in hiring in real authors and that will hopefully make that part better at least but the OP is right, there are comparably too many fantasy MMOs. How bout a historical MMO instead? A western one? There are many genres that deserves a game at least.
There are actually several D&D settings like that, Spelljammers were probably the largest of them. Nothing new there.
Either I am some sort of prodigy, or mankind has little to no imagination as to have writers that cannot expand their horizons (Anime makes some pretty diverse story lines and worlds compared to these lame MMOs)
If I ever make an MMO, I'd probably have the atmosphere be more ancient age (Jerusalem, Roman, AD), I feel it would be a nice change for a fantasy setting (Plus eliminating, classes, designated priest and tank characters with better gameplay rather than buttonmashing)
I think that there is alot of scope for a sci-fi MMO, Warhammer 40K has a fantastic backstory; and a horror MMO is long overdue. I would think that Eve's spinoff Dust might fit the bill nicely too.
It is surprizing that fastasy has been the main focus for some many big MMO, although I suspect that is probably due to companies trying to replicate WoW success. I mean most player get bored and move on between games and I guess that is what games companies are hoping.
Obviously there is Starwars and Star Trek to buck the trend, as well as City of Heroes; so there are alternatives to Fantasy MMO, if you have had enough.
What would be interesting is a MMO that bucks the trend of current repetive game play.
I don't really consider it an exaggeration, when in the past 2 yrs, I have seen so many references to some sort of Anime, wiether it be a players name or guild (matter of fact one of the gaming communities I'm a part of was named after an Anime that most of the members don't even watch).
I am glad that many of you agree, it's odd the mainstream dev's don't try and tap into that resource, especially when it's blatently starring them in the face, and being mentioned in their games all the time. Kinda make me realize how much they actually pay attention to gamers interests.
As far as fantasy goes. Yes fantasy and RPG have gone hand in hand for over 30yrs and there is no reason for it to die. But, it has been done to death. I mean how many Fantasy based MMO's have been released in the past 10yrs. If you don't know you can guesstimate by clicking the games list and organizing by genre. I see it as, fiction gave birth to fantasy, and in many ways I consider scifi the evolution of fantasy. I'm not saying to get rid of the genre all together, just help it evolve past the repetitiveness its been lingering in. Think about it, you can keep fantasy in a game but give it more of an edge, by simply saying "what would something like D&D look like if 20,000 years had past in the world?" Or, what would dragons, orcs, fairies, and elves look like if they had time to evolve, and how could you set up a game in that type of world?
Constant redesign of the same concepts and themes, show a sever lack of imagination. Which will only lead to more repetition. And repetition, as every MMOgamer knows, leads to boredum.
Add in the fact that in the past 5yrs, most publishers have decided that figuring out new ways to make a buck is more important then the quality of the product, or happiness of the gamer, means the future of MMORPGs is starring down a bleak, boring, road of crap filled with grinding and déjà vu.
There are actually several D&D settings like that, Spelljammers were probably the largest of them. Nothing new there.
OK there smart guy. How about spaceships flying dragons! AHHA!
________________________________
Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
When is the fantasy/medival MMO trend going to end?
Never.
What a silly question.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.