creates MMO games at reasonable cost in 18 to 24-month cycles;
Hold on a moment; is that part saying that they expect all of their future MMOs to be pushed out the door somewhere after only 1.5 - 2 years of development time?
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
creates MMO games at reasonable cost in 18 to 24-month cycles;
Hold on a moment; is that part saying that they expect all of their future MMOs to be pushed out the door somewhere after only 1.5 - 2 years of development time?
Yes, that's exactly what it says. Their goal is to reuse the same game engine in these indefinitely many MMOs they will be churning out. They cite economy of scale as a key advantage, basically the same support/GM team is used for all the games at once, and obviously technology improvements enter all the games at once. They are also re-using things like animations/emotes, costume parts, general option menus, controls, etc where ever they can, and although the game servers are on distinct hardware clusters (thank goodness), the chat server, mail server, and account servers are shared between all the games. In practice, the two games feel like Mods of each other, like Oblivion/Fallout3 etc, differing mostly on the level of art and scripting that a modder could do.
creates MMO games at reasonable cost in 18 to 24-month cycles;
Hold on a moment; is that part saying that they expect all of their future MMOs to be pushed out the door somewhere after only 1.5 - 2 years of development time?
Yes, that's exactly what it says. Their goal is to reuse the same game engine in these indefinitely many MMOs they will be churning out. They cite economy of scale as a key advantage, basically the same support/GM team is used for all the games at once, and obviously technology improvements enter all the games at once. They are also re-using things like animations/emotes, costume parts, general option menus, controls, etc where ever they can, and although the game servers are on distinct hardware clusters (thank goodness), the chat server, mail server, and account servers are shared between all the games. In practice, the two games feel like Mods of each other, like Oblivion/Fallout3 etc, differing mostly on the level of art and scripting that a modder could do.
Great. That's just peachy. There went the last hope I had of playing a Forgotten Realms based MMO; there's no way the engine they are using now can do that setting justice.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Originally posted by championsFan This article is aimed to inform people about Cryptic's business model. I am a lifetime subscriber for Champions, and as you may know we recently found out that our first content update that includes a new zone will be a micro-transaction expansion. The STO fans don't want their game to turn out like CO, so many of them will deny the message I am trying to share: Cryptic and Atari want to make a lot of money really fast while delivering as little support as possible. In case it helps people listen, to get their subs refunded and back out before it's too late, I want to bring to your attention John Needham, Chief Executive Officer of Cryptic Studios:"...Moving to Sony Online Entertainment in 2001, John served as senior vice president of business development, focusing on international expansion and the formation of a cross-platform publishing, distribution and marketing label. He later managed business development, strategic initiatives, international operations, customer service and quality assurance for SOE as senior vice president of business development and operations. At Cryptic, John provides executive leadership to all departments and will guide the company as it expands from a development house to an international publisher of MMOGs." Read: will guide the company as it strives for record profit margins by charging more and providing less than any one else in the business!
In CO it has become clear that they won't be providing the standard level of post launch updates that is usually included in an MMO sub cost. Instead they expect us to pay extra for anything beyond bug fixes. They arranged a few free post-launch updates for us as well, but nothing since November. That is just to point out that the currently announced free updates for STO don't prove anything conclusively. If you are an STO fan, denial is not the right action, this problem will soon effect you, it goes beyond CO. The better course of action is to communicate to Cryptic that enough is enough with these increasingly greedy micro-transactions, that the market will not support the ratio of profit to effort that they are trying to get away with. The executives are truly out of touch, and they are not seeing how bad this will fail in the long term. They plan to keep making bare minimal games around fanboy IPs, make a killing at launch, and then extracting high profits per player once the game falls to a hardcore fan audience that will pay $5 for this and that attire etc. We are fans, and we can tolerate this to a point, but we must make them understand that there are limits, and we demand more quality, and if the executives don't get the message then we will all lose the games we are a fan of.
First, if you are saying they do their job wrong, bring some hard data to support your statements and make some relevant conclusions.
Second, it all boils down whether the product is worth the price it is being offered or not and the value of worth is purely subjective.
Trying to incite people to not buying the product by pandering biased, half-incorrect, baseless assumptions is as qualifying as business practices you accuse them for.
@championsFan: Thanks a lot for that link/excerpt. I've really begun to have growing suspicions of Atari/Cryptic and their questionable business practices, and this confirms them.
It's as if their plans are to release a plethora of single-player games with a limited online multiplayer component so they can call them MMOs and feel justified in charging a monthly fee (I won't even mention the MTs, that's a whole 'nother story). On top of that, they can simply tag their games as "casual" so they have an excuse for the content being so light. And as the monthly fees go right into their pockets, customers will be left wondering why there are so few bugs being fixed (compared to the ones being introduced) and why content updates are so unsubstantial and infrequent. But by that time, these guys would have already moved onto their next venture. Not a game specifically, but a money-making venture. Yes, there's a difference, and it's all about how it's looked at while it's developed.
I may not have seen much from them but from the little I've seen, I honestly don't consider them responsible enough to handle the ongoing development/management aspect of MMOs...but hey, the idea of monthly fees in addition to MTs sounds pretty tasty, right? Why not go with the bare minimum and see how much you can get away with, and for how long...?
Admittedly, this is a lot of speculation on my part, but either way they're not getting another dime from me. I regretfully bought CO + a 6-month sub, that's more than enough. Another strike and it's shame on them.
Why not go with the bare minimum and see how much you can get away with, and for how long...?
That's the question, isn't it? How many MMOs can they shove out the door this way before the customer base says enough?
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
First, if you are saying they do their job wrong, bring some hard data to support your statements and make some relevant conclusions. Sure, would you like to hear the part about CO having 500-2000 concurrent users every night. That is the worldwide total for the entire game, but it is only similar to the number of players on a single shard in most games. Source: Scintillations Population thread on the official forums.
Or would you like to hear that so far CO is being treated by Atari as a 14 million euro R&D write off (loss), and that they have revised their operating profit forecast from "neutral to slightly positive" to "neutral to slightly negative", in the last 4 months. Source: Atari Corporate website.
Second, it all boils down whether the product is worth the price it is being offered or not and the value of worth is purely subjective. No, that is a naively plausible but in practice not used theory of value. In the real world, value is determined by the supply and demand in the free market. Trying to incite people to not buying the product by pandering biased, half-incorrect, baseless assumptions is as qualifying as business practices you accuse them for. I am not sure what you think my bias is, I play Champions every day. I am happy with my lifetime sub. In this thread I am striving to be objective, logical, and descriptive. Which one of my statements was half incorrect, and which one was baseless (aside from the public facts that you neglected to look up that I was so kind as to provide for you to inform you) ?
I said to myself after being burned by SOE, "I should really keep track of the filth that worked at SOE so I could watch where the rats have scattered."
I said that to myself and did nothing and I'm PAYING FOR THAT MISTAKE.
Originally posted by parrotpholk I think what he is pointing out is that Cryptic provides less support for the same money as the other MMO dev houses. While this may be true as long as people accept it and worse pay for it, it will continue. To have a item mall and a sub is already enough but to charge for what would be free content anywhere else is stretching it.
I agree with that.
We had to purchase the latest expansion of Lord of the Rings (Siege of Mirkwood). I had my doubtsa bout it, but bought it anyway. But I bought it with a sidenote for myself that if a next expansion would be charged, I'd quit LotR for sure (that while I have a lifetime sub and did not even complete all content).
Keep in mind that in almost 3 years Siege of Mirkwook was the first expansion that had to be bought...
About Cryptic... I didn't buy STo, I did do beta though. I was really disappointed by the game's content and quality in general. When I heard there'd be an itemshop, I decided to skip STo completely. Now that I hear that CO even offers expansions in the itemshop, I'd figure that STo will get these soon as well.
So basically, you buy a single-player game with internet extensions, pay a monthly fee for it and as a bonus you didn't eve get the whole package and you have to pay for extra items/expansions as well through the itemshop.
This might be a good look at making profit the Ferrengi way, but in MMOs this is not normal. I would not be surprised if Cryptic would be declared bankrupt in 2 years from now if they don't change their billing methods soon...
*feels real sorry for all those that took a lifetime subscription for Cryptic games*
Originally posted by championsFan Sure, would you like to hear the part about CO having 500-2000 concurrent users every night. That is the worldwide total for the entire game, but it is only similar to the number of players on a single shard in most games. Source: Scintillations Population thread on the official forums.
Or would you like to hear that so far CO is being treated by Atari as a 14 million euro R&D write off (loss), and that they have revised their operating profit forecast from "neutral to slightly positive" to "neutral to slightly negative", in the last 4 months. Source: Atari Corporate website.
And how is that saying anything?
I said hard data - market analysis, financial state report, expenses, costs, forecasts, etc.
If you criticize business model, you have to know what it is based on first.
I am sorry, but what you posted is equal to: 'Haha, Cryptic fails!' pointless rant.
Originally posted by championsFan No, that is a naively plausible but in practice not used theory of value. In the real world, value is determined by the supply and demand in the free market.
Yes, that is exactly what I have said.
Originally posted by championsFan I am not sure what you think my bias is, I play Champions every day. I am happy with my lifetime sub. In this thread I am striving to be objective, logical, and descriptive. Which one of my statements was half incorrect, and which one was baseless (aside from the public facts that you neglected to look up that I was so kind as to provide for you to inform you) ?
Conclusions that are based on false assumptions are considered biased because it is the personal motives adding invalid values and implication to assumptions.
Originally posted by championsFan Read: will guide the company as it strives for record profit margins by charging more and providing less than any one else in the business!And here we go again:...in fact John Needham is much more responsible for the current Cryptic business model.
Your implication of how to read the bio of John Needham clearly shows how your personal motives plays role in here.
I already pointed out to you before, if you want to critize something, you have to know something about it first. Now you make claims about internal processes of the company?
I could go on but it would be just the same story.
Your intentions might be honest but what I think you try to do here is to take customer point of view, grab some facts and imply them on how the company is run.
This does not work, you need to see both sides of the coin.
I actually think you all should listen to the OPs advice. He was an avid champions fan through and through. When the game launched and there were tons of problems he stood by the game and talked about how fun it was. It takes a lot to turn a loyal fan around. If the OP is putting information out so that others don't get burned as he feels he has been, they should really make an effort to at least understand what he's saying.
Well said.
Problem is, that as long as people keep throwing money, in bucket loads, at companies like Cryptic. Nothing will ever change.
With all the lifetime subs/longterm subs and initial box sales. Cryptic already made a return on investment AND profit, before the game even released!
So they got all the money already UPRONT! So what's left, is putting the game in lowest maintainance mode possible after the first month and squeeze out what's left to squeeze out... till it dries up.
So again. As long as people are not willing to see what Cryptic is doing and keep themselves in denial. Nothing will ever change!
Don't forget peeps.. Jack E is on record saying the primary reason they received the Star Trek contract was because they could churn out STO in 2 years as Atari requested.. You have to love those "quickest" or "lowest" bid contracts.. LOL Normally means CRAP product in the end..
Sure, would you like to hear the part about CO having 500-2000 concurrent users every night. That is the worldwide total for the entire game, but it is only similar to the number of players on a single shard in most games. Source: Scintillations Population thread on the official forums.
Or would you like to hear that so far CO is being treated by Atari as a 14 million euro R&D write off (loss), and that they have revised their operating profit forecast from "neutral to slightly positive" to "neutral to slightly negative", in the last 4 months. Source: Atari Corporate website.
And how is that saying anything?
I said hard data - market analysis, financial state report, expenses, costs, forecasts, etc.
Oh, you mean data that is conveniently impossible to obtain. Why would you expect consumers to ever have so much information before making a decision, despite the fact that they must make purchasing decisions each day?
If you criticize business model, you have to know what it is based on first.
I have already given you statements from corporate strategy documents that prove my point, that you are not attempting to refute. I would even say you are endlessly attacking the form of my argument instead of the content.
I am sorry, but what you posted is equal to: 'Haha, Cryptic fails!' pointless rant.
Don't be sorry, becuase you are the only one who seems to have trouble seeing how the statements I am making logically follow from the evidence I have provided.
Originally posted by championsFan
No, that is a naively plausible but in practice not used theory of value. In the real world, value is determined by the supply and demand in the free market.
Yes, that is exactly what I have said.
No, you said value is "totally subjective." Demand for luxury goods is subjective, yes, but supply is not. The "totally subjective" theory of value is something that a college economics course will explicitly debunk, not that people don't go through such classes without learning, in fact that is the norm.
Originally posted by championsFan
I am not sure what you think my bias is, I play Champions every day. I am happy with my lifetime sub. In this thread I am striving to be objective, logical, and descriptive. Which one of my statements was half incorrect, and which one was baseless (aside from the public facts that you neglected to look up that I was so kind as to provide for you to inform you) ?
Conclusions that are based on false assumptions are considered biased because it is the personal motives adding invalid values and implication to assumptions.
Like I said, you are the only one having trouble understanding the reasoning, and then you take the further ironic step of using your misunderstanding to conclude that I am using false reasoning and am therefore biased. I have no bias, I just want to explain that Cryptic charges more and provides less than other companies, in their MMOs. I even play Champions everyday, it is just really expensive and under-maintained.
Originally posted by championsFan
Read: will guide the company as it strives for record profit margins by charging more and providing less than any one else in the business!
And here we go again: ...in fact John Needham is much more responsible for the current Cryptic business model.
Your implication of how to read the bio of John Needham clearly shows how your personal motives plays role in he
What is the implication? He apparently worked at SOE for 5 years (note that it states nothing between SOE and Cryptic, and he joined Cryptic in 2006). And my point that Cryptic charges more and provides less, that is a fact, documented in their plans and actions.
I already pointed out to you before, if you want to critize something, you have to know something about it first. Now you make claims about internal processes of the company?
I could go on but it would be just the same story.
Your intentions might be honest but what I think you try to do here is to take customer point of view, grab some facts and imply them on how the company is run.
This does not work, you need to see both sides of the coin.
I understand that you don't respect me, but most people are listening to me so I don't have to care about convincing you. It turns out that I spend hours on the official forums each day, I have read all of the investment documentation about Atari, and I am literate and analytical. Do you actually know anything about Cryptic to argue the substance of my statements, or are you just going to attack me and the form of my argument, already substantially referenced by forum standards, because that is all you have done so far?
As an artist and a former (former!!!) art director at a game company I can say I left for many reasons. A firend of mine that was one of the founders of a huge game company, now assimilated by MS, also bemoaned these exact issues and more. Art is dead...killed by money. Vincent painted for himself but needed wanted to sell because he wanted to live to paint more. We no longer live by what I was taught back in the day..."make a game you love to play, cannot wait to play and by the last milestone still love to play and there will be a market for it." This is dead...DEAD! Now it is about target this and market that and getting at least 20% back on the investment. Theme, idea, art, style and true greatness tak a back seat to money and the making of it. The money people, suits, run the day to day and have the the producers by the wallet. In the past two weeks I have had two friends tell me 80-90% of the art jobs at their companies, different companies and different regions of the country, are moving to China and Mexico and the few artists left will simply be sub art directors approval monkeys. Gaming is going downhill fast...just pop open a cold one, put in Morrowind and Oblivion and watch the flaming juiceball slide down to hell. Sometimes you just gotta say weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
I totally agree. I'm an artist/animator in the industry and I've been watching this happen for years now. The industry is just not the same as it was. On the flip side I'm seeing a greater number of smaller studios cropping up which are devoted to their product, not just because they believe in it but also because they have to succeed to survive. And let the big corps outsource to china. Most of the work that comes back is garbage anyways, just like most of their games. Its unfortunate though that so many will be scrambling for work.
In short, if players want good games, they'll have to start wading through the avalanche of advertising for garbage franchises and support smaller studios who produce quality work.
As an artist and a former (former!!!) art director at a game company I can say I left for many reasons. A firend of mine that was one of the founders of a huge game company, now assimilated by MS, also bemoaned these exact issues and more. Art is dead...killed by money. Vincent painted for himself but needed wanted to sell because he wanted to live to paint more. We no longer live by what I was taught back in the day..."make a game you love to play, cannot wait to play and by the last milestone still love to play and there will be a market for it." This is dead...DEAD! Now it is about target this and market that and getting at least 20% back on the investment. Theme, idea, art, style and true greatness tak a back seat to money and the making of it. The money people, suits, run the day to day and have the the producers by the wallet. In the past two weeks I have had two friends tell me 80-90% of the art jobs at their companies, different companies and different regions of the country, are moving to China and Mexico and the few artists left will simply be sub art directors approval monkeys. Gaming is going downhill fast...just pop open a cold one, put in Morrowind and Oblivion and watch the flaming juiceball slide down to hell. Sometimes you just gotta say weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
I totally agree. I'm an artist/animator in the industry and I've been watching this happen for years now. The industry is just not the same as it was. On the flip side I'm seeing a greater number of smaller studios cropping up which are devoted to their product, not just because they believe in it but also because they have to succeed to survive. And let the big corps outsource to china. Most of the work that comes back is garbage anyways, just like most of their games. Its unfortunate though that so many will be scrambling for work.
In short, if players want good games, they'll have to start wading through the avalanche of advertising for garbage franchises and support smaller studios who produce quality work.
That's why I am supporting ICARUS studios with their Fallen Earth.
It's a great game with lots of potential. Eventho it has plenty of issues. It is still a 100 times better. Has 50 times more content, wich is also a lot more interesting and diverse an fun. And a ton more features as well. Than all the stuff Cryptic is rushing out the door!
And above all. It has also a single server, vast open zones and basically no instancing (except some small mission interiors.)
Originally posted by championsFan Why would you expect consumers to ever have so much information before making a decision, despite the fact that they must make purchasing decisions each day? <snip>
Financial statements have no bearing on my me since I am buying their product, not the company.
All I have to decide is to: Do I like their game to pay their price? That is all what matters.
I made an effot here for you:
Originally posted by championsFan They arranged a few free post-launch updates for us as well(edit: talking about CO), but nothing since November. That is just to point out that the currently announced free updates for STO don't prove anything conclusively.
: False. It does not prove anything. At most, it could be considered as reason for doubts in case of STO future.
Originally posted by championsFan ...the market will not support the ratio of profit to effort that they are trying to get away with.
: What is this based on?
Originally posted by championsFan They plan to keep making bare minimal games around fanboy IPs, make a killing at launch, and then extracting high profits per player once the game falls to a hardcore fan audience that will pay $5 for this and that attire etc
: Any proof or base? Your point?
Originally posted by championsFan ...in fact John Needham is much more responsible for the current Cryptic business model.
: What is this based on?
Originally posted by championsFan Needham has had years of experience with nickel and diming customers as a senior VP of SOE, a company with notoriously poor customer service.
: Your point?
Originally posted by championsFan If you look into the details, STO and CO are for most players more expensive than any other MMO without a real economy (i.e. without a way to sometimes get money out). $5 for a costume? This is like paying $5 for a set of gear, but without any stats. Meanwhile there is a $15/month sub, and the game is much buggier than at launch (like no MMO I have played before, it comes from them sharing engine between STO and CO, now our superheroes fly like spaceships, etc).
: False and nonsense. 1) More expensive than what MMO? How do you compare them, especialy when they have different business models? 2) Mixing CO and STO together? C-Store for STO was launched as pilot project only with unclear future. 3) Using same engine, ok so what? Your point?
Originally posted by championsFan It is exactly the economic principles of your beloved real-world that will bankrupt them if they continue to misunderstand the market and mis-price their products so badly relative to the competition.
: What is this based on?
As you found out, such informations I required from you are not only impossible obtain but they are mandatory to have if you want to prove your points(see above).
At this point I consider topic closed for me because there is little I can add.
Why would you expect consumers to ever have so much information before making a decision, despite the fact that they must make purchasing decisions each day?
<snip>
Financial statements have no bearing on my me since I am buying their product, not the company.
You have just talked in the circle. The business plan is relevant to the consumer, because the consumer is expected to pay more and receive less than the industry norm. Then you complained that I have not proven that is the business plan, that you need to see:
"market analysis, financial state report, expenses, costs, forecasts, etc. If you criticize business model, you have to know what it is based on first."
but now those things have no bearing on you. Your responses have been shallow and glib that bit by bit you contradicted yourself. If your new angle is that you don't care about the business model because you are not an investor, then that research is also deficient for a consumer.
All I have to decide is to: Do I like their game to pay their price?
That is all what matters.
It is an MMO, so you need to also think about the price in the future, and the future of the game's population, and revenue in relation to new content development. Predicting all these things is the job for any diligent consumer, and as you have deeply failed to see, these predictions follow from the underlying business model that they have described publicly in detail and that I have linked in this thread.
I made an effot here for you:
Originally posted by championsFan
They arranged a few free post-launch updates for us as well(edit: talking about CO), but nothing since November. That is just to point out that the currently announced free updates for STO don't prove anything conclusively.
: False. It does not prove anything. At most, it could be considered as reason for doubts in case of STO future.
Reading comprehension. Specifically the part where I agree with you and says that these observations "don't prove anything."
Originally posted by championsFan
...the market will not support the ratio of profit to effort that they are trying to get away with.
: What is this based on?
It is based on reading complaints about expensive price of the game both on the forums and in the zone chat. It is based on hundreds of players saying "I will not support the ratio of profit to effort that they are trying to get away with." It is based on there being no precedent for an MMO with prices this high and with post launch support so low.
Originally posted by championsFan
They plan to keep making bare minimal games around fanboy IPs, make a killing at launch, and then extracting high profits per player once the game falls to a hardcore fan audience that will pay $5 for this and that attire etc
: Any proof or base? Your point?
What can I do for you if you ignore the detailed proof that I provided in the post you are quoting? The proof is the excerpt from their strategy document. The point is that before entering a relationship with Cryptic consumers should realize that they will charge more and provide less support.
Originally posted by championsFan
...in fact John Needham is much more responsible for the current Cryptic business model.
: What is this based on?
He has been the CEO of Cryptic since 2006, but Bill Roper signed on as the Executive Producer for Champions Online in 2008. It should be fairly obvious to any rational person who is paying attention that Needham is much more responsible for the current Cryptic model than is Bill Roper. For one thing, Bill Roper is not involved with Star Trek Online at all. Therefore the CEO is more involved...than him...(this is like pulling teeth).
Originally posted by championsFan
Needham has had years of experience with nickel and diming customers as a senior VP of SOE, a company with notoriously poor customer service.
: Your point?
My point is that he has years of experience with charging more and providing less than the competition (this is the reputation of SOE). I guess I should also say, that reputation and past behavior are generally a good indicator of future behavior.
Originally posted by championsFan
If you look into the details, STO and CO are for most players more expensive than any other MMO without a real economy (i.e. without a way to sometimes get money out). $5 for a costume? This is like paying $5 for a set of gear, but without any stats. Meanwhile there is a $15/month sub, and the game is much buggier than at launch (like no MMO I have played before, it comes from them sharing engine between STO and CO, now our superheroes fly like spaceships, etc).
: False and nonsense.
1) More expensive than what MMO? How do you compare them, especialy when they have different business models?
It is difficult to compare without looking at the details. No matter how expensive and common the micro-transactions are, you can always defend them as optional. At some point that just does not match reality. The reality is most players are spending over $20 a month on CO (source: official forum poll). For a game without a real economy (cannot convert back to real cash), and without any free new zone areas, that is quite expensive.
2) Mixing CO and STO together? C-Store for STO was launched as pilot project only with unclear future.
A pilot project with an unclear future? Let me describe what the C store has been like in Champions so far: exponentially growing in size and greed. The shocking inclusion of federation/ferengi in the C store on launch day (I know you weren't shocked, I am talking about the hundreds of players who were) fits this growth curve as well.
3) Using same engine, ok so what? Your point?
I made several points, for example recently my superheroes have started flying around with space ship controls for the last 3 weeks.
Originally posted by championsFan
It is exactly the economic principles of your beloved real-world that will bankrupt them if they continue to misunderstand the market and mis-price their products so badly relative to the competition.
: What is this based on?
They were shooting for 100,000 subscriptions as "break even" for Champions but they failed to reach this modest target. Looking towards the future, they are charging a higher price than other MMOs, and also not providing anything exceptional in terms of post-launch support. Basic microeconomic analysis shows that a company which charges more for less will not be in business for very long.
As you found out, such informations I required from you are not only impossible obtain but they are mandatory to have if you want to prove your points(see above).
OK, so what is the plan then, just buy STO, since we cannot possibly see in advance the degree to which it will be over priced and under maintained ? LOL.
Why don't you explain to us why you are defending the company from my attack?
At this point I consider topic closed for me because there is little I can add.
This I would agree with, on the basis of your statements so far I would even say you could not add anything to the topic in the first place. I did not want to leave your challenges unanswered, but they were hardly worth responding to as I don't feel like you are honestly debating. If Cryptic were not executing the greedy plan I was describing, that would be great news for me, as my name is ChampionsFan and I play Champions everyday. Unfortunately, they are executing this plan, I have seen a lot of people get upset by it in the last 6 months, and so I explaining to STO so at least they will be warned.
Originally posted by championsFan Cryptic and Atari want to make a lot of money really fast while delivering as little support as possible.
What you have given here is the basic definition of a Corporation. They employ Corporate Officers, to make as much money, with as little cost as possible, so as to maximize profit. If this is a surprise to you, and somehow unexpected, then you need to re-evaluate your understanding of how things work in the real world.
There is a thing called product quality and customer satisfaction. Not all companies are out to to "make a quick buck".
When i buy Nike sneakers I do that because I know it will hold high quality and last a long time aswell as being comfortable to wear and look good.
When I buy a Japanese car I expect it to have state of the art technology aswell as good quality.
When I buy a BMW I expect performance, safety and excellent quality.
If all these companies were out to make a quick buck, creating subpar products to make an initial killing profit and then move on then they would not have built the reputation for quality products that they have.
Cryptic are quickly making a name for themselves for getting out, shallow, unfinished products with alot of bling bling to make a quck profit. However their retention rate is poor and they are charging for content patches that other companies release for free AND they have a subscription fee on top of that. I bet alot of people will never buy a Cryptic product after STO. I am sure I will not.
What's funny is companies like Cryptic make SOE look like masters of the trade. That's saying a lot coming from someone of my background, ex-SWg vet (hater). SOE offered free 30 day comebacks to SWG recently, after playing STO SWG(NGE) felt heaven sent. That's not even taking into consideration, the rest of the newly released MMO's out there, that are all shallow one trick ponies. Look at EQ2, VG:SOH, SWG and even planetside. You see games that are wide open, have tons to do, and offer so much more than what you see in STO, and for the same price.
I'm not the only ex-swg hater I've seen make this statement either, I've seen it said by some who are even more venom filled toward SOE than I. If a company makes SOE and the NGE look excellent, they are doing something seriously wrong.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Yamota However their retention rate is poor and they are charging for content patches that other companies release for free AND they have a subscription fee on top of that.
There once was a time when Cryptic released free updates as well. Unfortunately it looks like greed won out in the end with them.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
not that I am for micro transactions or Item malls for that matter but correct me if I am wrong...
Didn't EQ have a monthly sub and each expansion initially cost you extra money? I know you can buy them all cheap but originally didn't you have to purchase each expansion?
Expansions are one thing.. content patches are another.. When you have gaps in content that was missing from the game, because of oversight or timing, I have never met a company that has ever charged for it.. However, it looks like cryptic is doing that with CO and STO might be next..
From a business point of view I can see why the model is being changed from a sub to a sub+ what you want to spend, but the end is the same, you do not spend money on something you do not want or need. If players tend to want to buy a g-string for their character, or something to reset the skills then so be it. Those players are what the CEO and everyone are hoping for and with all of us being individuals, some will buy into it.
The market has become exactly what we as players and consumers have let it, and that blame can be distributed evenly amongst us all. I hated SWG after the CU/NGE and yes I am a smedly hater also, but only because they ruined the game FOR ME and my playstyle, not because he wanted to profitt from it.
The attachment we all get to a game that we enjoy to play after work, or on some downtime from kids and responsibilities is considered a Luxury, not a way of life, I do enjoy a nice game of questing, running around with people from work on the server spanking up fools in a few diff games, but at the end of the game time, I know I will either play it again because I enjoyed it, or will not because it just sucked. We are all consumers and What Leroy Jenkins likes, Might not be what Chuck Norris likes. This market could not pull together and agree to put water on someone on fire much less which game is better than the rest or who takes care of their people "players".
If Cryptic shows me first hand that I am going to need to purchase something other than the game to level my character, get upgrades or anything else in STO then I will simply cancel the subscription. I for one while cannot blame them for wanting to make money. but can however control if I pay for any of their services. Greed and Malice in the gaming industry has spread outward and will continue to do so as long as the consumers let it. Just remember this, If you do not like the product, do not play the product, just because they make it, does not mean we will all come play it.
I am holding out on making any decisions on STO and I preodered it in jan so I can add it to my collections with Asherons Call2, SWG and all Expansions and WOW and all their expansions if it becomes more of a hassle to pay than play. See while I did enjoy them, there is always a choice.
If Needham walks into Cryptic and exploits the players and 'makes" it so that you have to buy the virtual items to advance the game, then it will go in the box in the closet and they will join the Ranks of SOE for me. I am just playing this until BIOwares SWTOR comes out, and the same go for their butts to, while I was impressed with The old republic series and with Dragon Age, I will not think twice about canning them also. I mean lets be for real, then the Koreans get the Game engines up to speed, hell I would rather support them if they will meet the communities wants.
not that I am for micro transactions or Item malls for that matter but correct me if I am wrong... Didn't EQ have a monthly sub and each expansion initially cost you extra money? I know you can buy them all cheap but originally didn't you have to purchase each expansion?
The original EQ had paid expansions, but those expansions added in entire continents with multiple zones. Heck, one expansion added in a moon with many different zones. Unfortunately in EQ2 you started seeing what Cryptic is doing; there were $7 dollar adventure packs that added in a questline. That's one of the reasons I stopped playing that game early on.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Comments
Hold on a moment; is that part saying that they expect all of their future MMOs to be pushed out the door somewhere after only 1.5 - 2 years of development time?
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Hold on a moment; is that part saying that they expect all of their future MMOs to be pushed out the door somewhere after only 1.5 - 2 years of development time?
Yes, that's exactly what it says. Their goal is to reuse the same game engine in these indefinitely many MMOs they will be churning out. They cite economy of scale as a key advantage, basically the same support/GM team is used for all the games at once, and obviously technology improvements enter all the games at once. They are also re-using things like animations/emotes, costume parts, general option menus, controls, etc where ever they can, and although the game servers are on distinct hardware clusters (thank goodness), the chat server, mail server, and account servers are shared between all the games. In practice, the two games feel like Mods of each other, like Oblivion/Fallout3 etc, differing mostly on the level of art and scripting that a modder could do.
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
Hold on a moment; is that part saying that they expect all of their future MMOs to be pushed out the door somewhere after only 1.5 - 2 years of development time?
Yes, that's exactly what it says. Their goal is to reuse the same game engine in these indefinitely many MMOs they will be churning out. They cite economy of scale as a key advantage, basically the same support/GM team is used for all the games at once, and obviously technology improvements enter all the games at once. They are also re-using things like animations/emotes, costume parts, general option menus, controls, etc where ever they can, and although the game servers are on distinct hardware clusters (thank goodness), the chat server, mail server, and account servers are shared between all the games. In practice, the two games feel like Mods of each other, like Oblivion/Fallout3 etc, differing mostly on the level of art and scripting that a modder could do.
Great. That's just peachy. There went the last hope I had of playing a Forgotten Realms based MMO; there's no way the engine they are using now can do that setting justice.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
First, if you are saying they do their job wrong, bring some hard data to support your statements and make some relevant conclusions.
Second, it all boils down whether the product is worth the price it is being offered or not and the value of worth is purely subjective.
Trying to incite people to not buying the product by pandering biased, half-incorrect, baseless assumptions is as qualifying as business practices you accuse them for.
@championsFan: Thanks a lot for that link/excerpt. I've really begun to have growing suspicions of Atari/Cryptic and their questionable business practices, and this confirms them.
It's as if their plans are to release a plethora of single-player games with a limited online multiplayer component so they can call them MMOs and feel justified in charging a monthly fee (I won't even mention the MTs, that's a whole 'nother story). On top of that, they can simply tag their games as "casual" so they have an excuse for the content being so light. And as the monthly fees go right into their pockets, customers will be left wondering why there are so few bugs being fixed (compared to the ones being introduced) and why content updates are so unsubstantial and infrequent. But by that time, these guys would have already moved onto their next venture. Not a game specifically, but a money-making venture. Yes, there's a difference, and it's all about how it's looked at while it's developed.
I may not have seen much from them but from the little I've seen, I honestly don't consider them responsible enough to handle the ongoing development/management aspect of MMOs...but hey, the idea of monthly fees in addition to MTs sounds pretty tasty, right? Why not go with the bare minimum and see how much you can get away with, and for how long...?
Admittedly, this is a lot of speculation on my part, but either way they're not getting another dime from me. I regretfully bought CO + a 6-month sub, that's more than enough. Another strike and it's shame on them.
That's the question, isn't it? How many MMOs can they shove out the door this way before the customer base says enough?
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
I said to myself after being burned by SOE, "I should really keep track of the filth that worked at SOE so I could watch where the rats have scattered."
I said that to myself and did nothing and I'm PAYING FOR THAT MISTAKE.
I agree with that.
We had to purchase the latest expansion of Lord of the Rings (Siege of Mirkwood). I had my doubtsa bout it, but bought it anyway. But I bought it with a sidenote for myself that if a next expansion would be charged, I'd quit LotR for sure (that while I have a lifetime sub and did not even complete all content).
Keep in mind that in almost 3 years Siege of Mirkwook was the first expansion that had to be bought...
About Cryptic... I didn't buy STo, I did do beta though. I was really disappointed by the game's content and quality in general. When I heard there'd be an itemshop, I decided to skip STo completely. Now that I hear that CO even offers expansions in the itemshop, I'd figure that STo will get these soon as well.
So basically, you buy a single-player game with internet extensions, pay a monthly fee for it and as a bonus you didn't eve get the whole package and you have to pay for extra items/expansions as well through the itemshop.
This might be a good look at making profit the Ferrengi way, but in MMOs this is not normal. I would not be surprised if Cryptic would be declared bankrupt in 2 years from now if they don't change their billing methods soon...
*feels real sorry for all those that took a lifetime subscription for Cryptic games*
And how is that saying anything?
I said hard data - market analysis, financial state report, expenses, costs, forecasts, etc.
If you criticize business model, you have to know what it is based on first.
I am sorry, but what you posted is equal to: 'Haha, Cryptic fails!' pointless rant.
Yes, that is exactly what I have said.
Conclusions that are based on false assumptions are considered biased because it is the personal motives adding invalid values and implication to assumptions.
Your implication of how to read the bio of John Needham clearly shows how your personal motives plays role in here.
I already pointed out to you before, if you want to critize something, you have to know something about it first. Now you make claims about internal processes of the company?
I could go on but it would be just the same story.
Your intentions might be honest but what I think you try to do here is to take customer point of view, grab some facts and imply them on how the company is run.
This does not work, you need to see both sides of the coin.
Well said.
Problem is, that as long as people keep throwing money, in bucket loads, at companies like Cryptic. Nothing will ever change.
With all the lifetime subs/longterm subs and initial box sales. Cryptic already made a return on investment AND profit, before the game even released!
So they got all the money already UPRONT! So what's left, is putting the game in lowest maintainance mode possible after the first month and squeeze out what's left to squeeze out... till it dries up.
So again. As long as people are not willing to see what Cryptic is doing and keep themselves in denial. Nothing will ever change!
Cheers
Don't forget peeps.. Jack E is on record saying the primary reason they received the Star Trek contract was because they could churn out STO in 2 years as Atari requested.. You have to love those "quickest" or "lowest" bid contracts.. LOL Normally means CRAP product in the end..
And how is that saying anything?
I said hard data - market analysis, financial state report, expenses, costs, forecasts, etc.
Oh, you mean data that is conveniently impossible to obtain. Why would you expect consumers to ever have so much information before making a decision, despite the fact that they must make purchasing decisions each day?
If you criticize business model, you have to know what it is based on first.
I have already given you statements from corporate strategy documents that prove my point, that you are not attempting to refute. I would even say you are endlessly attacking the form of my argument instead of the content.
I am sorry, but what you posted is equal to: 'Haha, Cryptic fails!' pointless rant.
Don't be sorry, becuase you are the only one who seems to have trouble seeing how the statements I am making logically follow from the evidence I have provided.
Yes, that is exactly what I have said.
No, you said value is "totally subjective." Demand for luxury goods is subjective, yes, but supply is not. The "totally subjective" theory of value is something that a college economics course will explicitly debunk, not that people don't go through such classes without learning, in fact that is the norm.
Conclusions that are based on false assumptions are considered biased because it is the personal motives adding invalid values and implication to assumptions.
Like I said, you are the only one having trouble understanding the reasoning, and then you take the further ironic step of using your misunderstanding to conclude that I am using false reasoning and am therefore biased. I have no bias, I just want to explain that Cryptic charges more and provides less than other companies, in their MMOs. I even play Champions everyday, it is just really expensive and under-maintained.
Your implication of how to read the bio of John Needham clearly shows how your personal motives plays role in he
What is the implication? He apparently worked at SOE for 5 years (note that it states nothing between SOE and Cryptic, and he joined Cryptic in 2006). And my point that Cryptic charges more and provides less, that is a fact, documented in their plans and actions.
I already pointed out to you before, if you want to critize something, you have to know something about it first. Now you make claims about internal processes of the company?
I could go on but it would be just the same story.
Your intentions might be honest but what I think you try to do here is to take customer point of view, grab some facts and imply them on how the company is run.
This does not work, you need to see both sides of the coin.
I understand that you don't respect me, but most people are listening to me so I don't have to care about convincing you. It turns out that I spend hours on the official forums each day, I have read all of the investment documentation about Atari, and I am literate and analytical. Do you actually know anything about Cryptic to argue the substance of my statements, or are you just going to attack me and the form of my argument, already substantially referenced by forum standards, because that is all you have done so far?
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
I totally agree. I'm an artist/animator in the industry and I've been watching this happen for years now. The industry is just not the same as it was. On the flip side I'm seeing a greater number of smaller studios cropping up which are devoted to their product, not just because they believe in it but also because they have to succeed to survive. And let the big corps outsource to china. Most of the work that comes back is garbage anyways, just like most of their games. Its unfortunate though that so many will be scrambling for work.
In short, if players want good games, they'll have to start wading through the avalanche of advertising for garbage franchises and support smaller studios who produce quality work.
poster number 41 !dont shortchange asia on the mmo front!they might surprise a lot !they are learning at an insane pace
and contrary to most mmo maker they arent affraid to addopt new technology,so im willing to bet they ll be ahead of the mmo food chain within 5 years
your first will be buying mmo engine from perfect world ,and all those other mmo maker from there
dont know if you played perfect world(the game )latelly but i suggest you try it to lvl 10 or ask a friend to stream you in HD
a psychic total spell effect surrounding a psychic .i havent seent that since guild wars.
thats just an expension for an old game.so imagine their 2010 success title grand mundo(too smart AI) etc
I totally agree. I'm an artist/animator in the industry and I've been watching this happen for years now. The industry is just not the same as it was. On the flip side I'm seeing a greater number of smaller studios cropping up which are devoted to their product, not just because they believe in it but also because they have to succeed to survive. And let the big corps outsource to china. Most of the work that comes back is garbage anyways, just like most of their games. Its unfortunate though that so many will be scrambling for work.
In short, if players want good games, they'll have to start wading through the avalanche of advertising for garbage franchises and support smaller studios who produce quality work.
That's why I am supporting ICARUS studios with their Fallen Earth.
It's a great game with lots of potential. Eventho it has plenty of issues. It is still a 100 times better. Has 50 times more content, wich is also a lot more interesting and diverse an fun. And a ton more features as well. Than all the stuff Cryptic is rushing out the door!
And above all. It has also a single server, vast open zones and basically no instancing (except some small mission interiors.)
Cheers
Financial statements have no bearing on my me since I am buying their product, not the company.
All I have to decide is to: Do I like their game to pay their price?
That is all what matters.
I made an effot here for you:
: False. It does not prove anything. At most, it could be considered as reason for doubts in case of STO future.
: What is this based on?
: Any proof or base? Your point?
: What is this based on?
: Your point?
: False and nonsense.
1) More expensive than what MMO? How do you compare them, especialy when they have different business models?
2) Mixing CO and STO together? C-Store for STO was launched as pilot project only with unclear future.
3) Using same engine, ok so what? Your point?
: What is this based on?
As you found out, such informations I required from you are not only impossible obtain but they are mandatory to have if you want to prove your points(see above).
At this point I consider topic closed for me because there is little I can add.
Financial statements have no bearing on my me since I am buying their product, not the company.
You have just talked in the circle. The business plan is relevant to the consumer, because the consumer is expected to pay more and receive less than the industry norm. Then you complained that I have not proven that is the business plan, that you need to see:
"market analysis, financial state report, expenses, costs, forecasts, etc. If you criticize business model, you have to know what it is based on first."
but now those things have no bearing on you. Your responses have been shallow and glib that bit by bit you contradicted yourself. If your new angle is that you don't care about the business model because you are not an investor, then that research is also deficient for a consumer.
All I have to decide is to: Do I like their game to pay their price?
That is all what matters.
It is an MMO, so you need to also think about the price in the future, and the future of the game's population, and revenue in relation to new content development. Predicting all these things is the job for any diligent consumer, and as you have deeply failed to see, these predictions follow from the underlying business model that they have described publicly in detail and that I have linked in this thread.
I made an effot here for you:
: False. It does not prove anything. At most, it could be considered as reason for doubts in case of STO future.
Reading comprehension. Specifically the part where I agree with you and says that these observations "don't prove anything."
: What is this based on?
It is based on reading complaints about expensive price of the game both on the forums and in the zone chat. It is based on hundreds of players saying "I will not support the ratio of profit to effort that they are trying to get away with." It is based on there being no precedent for an MMO with prices this high and with post launch support so low.
: Any proof or base? Your point?
What can I do for you if you ignore the detailed proof that I provided in the post you are quoting? The proof is the excerpt from their strategy document. The point is that before entering a relationship with Cryptic consumers should realize that they will charge more and provide less support.
: What is this based on?
He has been the CEO of Cryptic since 2006, but Bill Roper signed on as the Executive Producer for Champions Online in 2008. It should be fairly obvious to any rational person who is paying attention that Needham is much more responsible for the current Cryptic model than is Bill Roper. For one thing, Bill Roper is not involved with Star Trek Online at all. Therefore the CEO is more involved...than him...(this is like pulling teeth).
: Your point?
My point is that he has years of experience with charging more and providing less than the competition (this is the reputation of SOE). I guess I should also say, that reputation and past behavior are generally a good indicator of future behavior.
: False and nonsense.
1) More expensive than what MMO? How do you compare them, especialy when they have different business models?
It is difficult to compare without looking at the details. No matter how expensive and common the micro-transactions are, you can always defend them as optional. At some point that just does not match reality. The reality is most players are spending over $20 a month on CO (source: official forum poll). For a game without a real economy (cannot convert back to real cash), and without any free new zone areas, that is quite expensive.
2) Mixing CO and STO together? C-Store for STO was launched as pilot project only with unclear future.
A pilot project with an unclear future? Let me describe what the C store has been like in Champions so far: exponentially growing in size and greed. The shocking inclusion of federation/ferengi in the C store on launch day (I know you weren't shocked, I am talking about the hundreds of players who were) fits this growth curve as well.
3) Using same engine, ok so what? Your point?
I made several points, for example recently my superheroes have started flying around with space ship controls for the last 3 weeks.
: What is this based on?
They were shooting for 100,000 subscriptions as "break even" for Champions but they failed to reach this modest target. Looking towards the future, they are charging a higher price than other MMOs, and also not providing anything exceptional in terms of post-launch support. Basic microeconomic analysis shows that a company which charges more for less will not be in business for very long.
As you found out, such informations I required from you are not only impossible obtain but they are mandatory to have if you want to prove your points(see above).
OK, so what is the plan then, just buy STO, since we cannot possibly see in advance the degree to which it will be over priced and under maintained ? LOL.
Why don't you explain to us why you are defending the company from my attack?
At this point I consider topic closed for me because there is little I can add.
This I would agree with, on the basis of your statements so far I would even say you could not add anything to the topic in the first place. I did not want to leave your challenges unanswered, but they were hardly worth responding to as I don't feel like you are honestly debating. If Cryptic were not executing the greedy plan I was describing, that would be great news for me, as my name is ChampionsFan and I play Champions everyday. Unfortunately, they are executing this plan, I have seen a lot of people get upset by it in the last 6 months, and so I explaining to STO so at least they will be warned.
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
What you have given here is the basic definition of a Corporation. They employ Corporate Officers, to make as much money, with as little cost as possible, so as to maximize profit. If this is a surprise to you, and somehow unexpected, then you need to re-evaluate your understanding of how things work in the real world.
There is a thing called product quality and customer satisfaction. Not all companies are out to to "make a quick buck".
When i buy Nike sneakers I do that because I know it will hold high quality and last a long time aswell as being comfortable to wear and look good.
When I buy a Japanese car I expect it to have state of the art technology aswell as good quality.
When I buy a BMW I expect performance, safety and excellent quality.
If all these companies were out to make a quick buck, creating subpar products to make an initial killing profit and then move on then they would not have built the reputation for quality products that they have.
Cryptic are quickly making a name for themselves for getting out, shallow, unfinished products with alot of bling bling to make a quck profit. However their retention rate is poor and they are charging for content patches that other companies release for free AND they have a subscription fee on top of that. I bet alot of people will never buy a Cryptic product after STO. I am sure I will not.
My gaming blog
What's funny is companies like Cryptic make SOE look like masters of the trade. That's saying a lot coming from someone of my background, ex-SWg vet (hater). SOE offered free 30 day comebacks to SWG recently, after playing STO SWG(NGE) felt heaven sent. That's not even taking into consideration, the rest of the newly released MMO's out there, that are all shallow one trick ponies. Look at EQ2, VG:SOH, SWG and even planetside. You see games that are wide open, have tons to do, and offer so much more than what you see in STO, and for the same price.
I'm not the only ex-swg hater I've seen make this statement either, I've seen it said by some who are even more venom filled toward SOE than I. If a company makes SOE and the NGE look excellent, they are doing something seriously wrong.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There once was a time when Cryptic released free updates as well. Unfortunately it looks like greed won out in the end with them.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
not that I am for micro transactions or Item malls for that matter but correct me if I am wrong...
Didn't EQ have a monthly sub and each expansion initially cost you extra money? I know you can buy them all cheap but originally didn't you have to purchase each expansion?
Expansions are one thing.. content patches are another.. When you have gaps in content that was missing from the game, because of oversight or timing, I have never met a company that has ever charged for it.. However, it looks like cryptic is doing that with CO and STO might be next..
From a business point of view I can see why the model is being changed from a sub to a sub+ what you want to spend, but the end is the same, you do not spend money on something you do not want or need. If players tend to want to buy a g-string for their character, or something to reset the skills then so be it. Those players are what the CEO and everyone are hoping for and with all of us being individuals, some will buy into it.
The market has become exactly what we as players and consumers have let it, and that blame can be distributed evenly amongst us all. I hated SWG after the CU/NGE and yes I am a smedly hater also, but only because they ruined the game FOR ME and my playstyle, not because he wanted to profitt from it.
The attachment we all get to a game that we enjoy to play after work, or on some downtime from kids and responsibilities is considered a Luxury, not a way of life, I do enjoy a nice game of questing, running around with people from work on the server spanking up fools in a few diff games, but at the end of the game time, I know I will either play it again because I enjoyed it, or will not because it just sucked. We are all consumers and What Leroy Jenkins likes, Might not be what Chuck Norris likes. This market could not pull together and agree to put water on someone on fire much less which game is better than the rest or who takes care of their people "players".
If Cryptic shows me first hand that I am going to need to purchase something other than the game to level my character, get upgrades or anything else in STO then I will simply cancel the subscription. I for one while cannot blame them for wanting to make money. but can however control if I pay for any of their services. Greed and Malice in the gaming industry has spread outward and will continue to do so as long as the consumers let it. Just remember this, If you do not like the product, do not play the product, just because they make it, does not mean we will all come play it.
I am holding out on making any decisions on STO and I preodered it in jan so I can add it to my collections with Asherons Call2, SWG and all Expansions and WOW and all their expansions if it becomes more of a hassle to pay than play. See while I did enjoy them, there is always a choice.
If Needham walks into Cryptic and exploits the players and 'makes" it so that you have to buy the virtual items to advance the game, then it will go in the box in the closet and they will join the Ranks of SOE for me. I am just playing this until BIOwares SWTOR comes out, and the same go for their butts to, while I was impressed with The old republic series and with Dragon Age, I will not think twice about canning them also. I mean lets be for real, then the Koreans get the Game engines up to speed, hell I would rather support them if they will meet the communities wants.
The original EQ had paid expansions, but those expansions added in entire continents with multiple zones. Heck, one expansion added in a moon with many different zones. Unfortunately in EQ2 you started seeing what Cryptic is doing; there were $7 dollar adventure packs that added in a questline. That's one of the reasons I stopped playing that game early on.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan