I'm betting that there would be a whole lot of pissed of people if a restaurant opened up and tried to charge people a Membership fee, Table Usage fee, Silverware/Napkin fee, and Bathroom fee. And I'm betting they'd be even more pissed off if they only found out about some of these fees after they had already walked in, sat down, and started eating... While it may be true that every company wants to make a profit that fact alone does not constitute a valid argument against the people who are saying that Subs+Micro payments+Adventure packs+whatever = greed. It doesn't matter how people want to try and spin the subject there are always going to be people who are going to refuse to buy a product and call a company greedy (e.g. nickel and dime) when they put out a product that has all the basic costs that every other similar product has plus extra costs on top of it. To be honest I'm amazed that so many people are "ok" with companies moving away from a subs only payment system to a Subs+Micro payments+Adventure packs+whatever payment system. I could somewhat understand it if the products where vastly superior but to put it simply they're not. All these extra fees are being charged for things that have always been free in subscription based MMOs and thats not good for us, the consumers. I'm a little disappointed with MMORPG.com for not commenting on the movement by companies to try to charge more for the same/less. If this is a site for the community (and not the developers) I'd expect that they would bring stuff like this up. And I'd hope that we, the community, would support them for doing so.
Greed can be a pretty subjective word. Would you go to work and not expect to be paid for your time? I think not. Well then why would you expect to get anything for free? While I'm sure some companies can be "greedy" with the way they do some of the things they do, I just can't bring myself to blanket an entire industry as "Greedy" just because they want to sell something they worked on. Now the banking industry, well that's another story but the gaming industry? Please.....
Times are hard as we all know, but the free lunch mentality of the gaming community has got to change. People get paid to make adventure packs so it costs someone something to make that pack for you. I don't believe that the sub costs can offset the development costs for something that's not quite big enough to call an expansion but not quite small enough to give away either. So you get to pay for it, or not. In the one case I saw come my way in the form of an adventure pack, I remember it being optional, just like things that are in the micro transaction stores. That means you don't need it to play the game, it won't affect your current experience if you choose to boycott it and your not forced to pay for it. So greed as a motive just doesn't work.
The defense of "I pay my monthly fee to play so I should not have to pay again" just doesn't work either. Most MMO's are $15 a month to play. Roughly $0.50 a day it costs to play. That's not much when you think about how you can not even buy a cola for that anymore. There are overhead costs in running a company, and that goes for business' in every industry. Greed doesn't drive everyone, it's just an easy excuse to use when people don't agree with other peoples business models.
You are a big part of the problem.
Nobody wants a "free lunch" but its getting to the point (due to people putting up with it) that companies that at one time provided a full game for a one time fee and monthly sub are now providing a partial game with a one time fee and a monthly sub AND a ca$h $hop for things which should be in game anyhow.
This at a time when these same companies are laying people off, closing offices and getting rid of overhead- In otherwords, making games cheaper.
These companies are far from 'giving away a free lunch'- These companies are squeezing every dime out of their customers by withholding content unless one pays extra.
-There is a real issue here and if it doesnt get under control soon its going to dominate the industry in online AND offline games- Games will be designed with the sole intent of providing only the very bare essentials and EVERYTHING else will cost. Anyhow, you may not see it now, but you most likely will.
The idea of me paying a sub and then MT fees for cosmetic things doesn't bother me. What bothers me is, my intial payment for the software and then the monthly sub to even use the software I just bought , is being used to pay someone to make fluff items to sell me and get even more money out of me when the money should be going to fix the bugs, game improvements, and further development.
When I see Extra stuff being created to make more money with and the game still has many issues that haven't been fixed (remember, I already paid for the software), then my sub isn't being used properly and it's time to stop playing the game.
I have a feeling my time in this genre is nearing it's end.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
It reminds me of the great North American Video Game crash of 1983. Atari got greedy, much, much greedier than any companies that exist now. For example, they produced the game "E.T. The Extraterrestrial" in about 6 weeks of development time, rushed for xmas, and they expected to sell 5 million copies at $49.95 each (not adjusted for inflation, this was almost 30 years ago). It is one of the worst games ever:
it is an adventure maze, you play as ET and must collect 3 pieces of a telephone before time runs out. You can collect black dots (reeses pieces) to extend your time remaining. When the game ends you start over with the score still accumulating.
Needless to say, games like this undermined the credibility of the entire industry, and over 3 million copies of ET went unsold and were burried in a landfill. The height of Atari's profits and greed is only matched by the staggering losses they incurred from 1983 and onward. Atari flooded the market with bad games, and retailers lowered prices from $50 down to $10 and many retailers got out of the video game business entirely.
In North America we all know that Nintendo saved us in 1985. Nintendo really likes profit, and they are quite ruthless, but they revived the entire industry with their high standards of quality. As expensive as those NES games were, at least they were not greedy profiteering ripoffs, they were all produced up to standards.
For us in 2010, I think things will get worse before they get better, but that if this trend of ripoffs continues the consumers will eventually quit completely. After that it will just be a matter of time until the next value-based reincarnation comes along.
I am a big part of the problem? What did I do except make a counterpoint and put into perspective the complaint that is at hand?
Nobody wants a "free lunch" but its getting to the point (due to people putting up with it) that companies that at one time provided a full game for a one time fee and monthly sub are now providing a partial game with a one time fee and a monthly sub AND a ca$h $hop for things which should be in game anyhow.
Can you name me one game and or company that has launched a game purposely withholding content or items that you have to buy because you need them to play that game? Go ahead, I'll wait while you think about it.
This at a time when these same companies are laying people off, closing offices and getting rid of overhead- In otherwords, making games cheaper
Layoffs and office closures do not make games cheaper, in fact I would suspect quite the opposite would occur because without the added workforce it will take longer to get the product to store shelves. Sure layoffs and closures lessen the burden on overhead, but they don't do anything to cut the workload. Just because you play a game doesn't mean it's not work to make and maintain it.
These companies are far from 'giving away a free lunch'- These companies are squeezing every dime out of their customers by withholding content unless one pays extra.
Again, name that game/company.
-There is a real issue here and if it doesnt get under control soon its going to dominate the industry in online AND offline games- Games will be designed with the sole intent of providing only the very bare essentials and EVERYTHING else will cost. Anyhow, you may not see it now, but you most likely will.
That last part is just absurd. I mean come on do you really think that anyone would support that sort of behavior? Sure seems like the quick way to bankruptcy to me.
How come no one here is making comparisons to X-BOX and PS3's online stores? Seems to me that this has been going on for quite some time now but has mostly slipped under the radar because it started out that way for Sony and Microsoft. I know this is a relatively new concept for MMO's. This is game evolution if you ask me, and not greed like some would like to write it off as but what do i know, I'm just some random on the net like everyone else.
Well, at this point its Fluff- But Fluff which should be included in the game.
Example would be Aion basicly charging for its seasonal festival (something which has always been free) and just the fact that in the last year or so subsciption games are adding cash shops which takes devs time from working on the "game" to work on "profit driven cash shop items" in a time when Devs are being layed off.
I am speaking more of the slippery slope we are on. A cash shop has NO place in a P2P and even if it starts as Fluff, corporate nature guarantees it will expand if people use it.
I dont deny many of your points but you are coming from a mindset where- This is as bad as it will get. Its not... I am looking at this more as what this trend will become, and yes, I really see very basic game being the norm and EVERYTHING costing (to be sold as "you only have to pay for the stuff you want to do") FAR more than the 50 dollar box price plus 15 dollars a month we currently pay.
Even Dragon Age is on the rip off DLC bandwagon. I think (correct me if I am wrong) that those DLC quests were around 20 bucks and had less than 6 hours to complete... And they sold like mad. This is a trend that worries me as a gamer. Very much.
Excuse my grammar and perhaps my incoherancy- Been up all night and still have like 5 more hours to go till I can sleep.
I wasnt meaning to personally say YOU are the problem- Its the attitude that its okay to do these things (sub and cash shop)- Which I know will (if profitable) dominate everything.
Well, at this point its Fluff- But Fluff which should be included in the game. Example would be Aion basicly charging for its seasonal festival (something which has always been free) and just the fact that in the last year or so subsciption games are adding cash shops which takes devs time from working on the "game" to work on "profit driven cash shop items" in a time when Devs are being layed off. I am speaking more of the slippery slope we are on. A cash shop has NO place in a P2P and even if it starts as Fluff, corporate nature guarantees it will expand if people use it. I dont deny many of your points but you are coming from a mindset where- This is as bad as it will get. Its not... I am looking at this more as what this trend will become, and yes, I really see very basic game being the norm and EVERYTHING costing (to be sold as "you only have to pay for the stuff you want to do") FAR more than the 50 dollar box price plus 15 dollars a month we currently pay. Even Dragon Age is on the rip off DLC bandwagon. I think (correct me if I am wrong) that those DLC quests were around 20 bucks and had less than 6 hours to complete... And they sold like mad. This is a trend that worries me as a gamer. Very much. Excuse my grammar and perhaps my incoherancy- Been up all night and still have like 5 more hours to go till I can sleep. I wasnt meaning to personally say YOU are the problem- Its the attitude that its okay to do these things (sub and cash shop)- Which I know will (if profitable) dominate everything.
Even Dragon Age is on the rip off DLC bandwagon. I think (correct me if I am wrong) that those DLC quests were around 20 bucks and had less than 6 hours to complete... And they sold like mad. This is a trend that worries me as a gamer. Very much.
The Dragon Age DLC components are about $5 each. I think the most expensive is Stone Prisoner and it came with almost every boxed copy of DA:O. As for their quests? I've played and completed every one of the DLC and none of them are more than 2 hours long.
DA:O isn't the first to charge for content. Oblivion also charged for content. Content that many players could make for free and better. The only thing Oblivion had that the players didn't was professional voice acting.
As always, the worth of something is based on the consumer as far as this goes.
As far as my opinion? DLC is an effort to combat piracy by making a slight profit from players who don't buy the game, but want extras from it. In practice, many of the "DLC" components are nothing more than things removed from the game and added later. Stone prisoner is actually a good example. Shale was meant to be included in the game but was removed because of time restraints and then later added as a DLC. (Which is why she was included for free in boxed copies)
I've always thought that paying for content in an MMORPG you already pay for is a bad idea, but as far as single player games go, I think it's fine, because it doesn't effect anyone else or how anyone else plays the game except yourself; whereas micro-transactions in MMORPGs stretch the limits of "Basic" subscription players and "Advanced" players who also buy content.
In reality, the easiest thing to do would be offer tiered subscriptions. I think tiered subscriptions are the future of MMORPGs. We'll have to see, though.
If people stop using the cash shops or stores then the companies wont have them, but unf too mnay people use them. IMO For a F2P is fine but not for a subscriber based game. (BBBBBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH waits patiently for WOD mmo!)
I don't think it's enough to stop using cash shops. Players have to cancel their subscriptions and state that cash shops/RMT/disagreeing with the business model is the reason for canceling. If they lose more in monthly subscriptions fees in a way that can be traced directly to the cash shops than they earn each month from having them, it'll be an incentive to get rid of them. As long as having cash shops seems more profitable than not having them, the only reason to get rid of them/not introduce them, is principles.
Personally, I would never play an MMO that relied on more than the subscription fee for profits. I can afford it, but I'd rather pay a higher subscription fee if the additional content is high quality and they don't feel the regular subscription fee covers the cost of producing it. Ads and "beggars" have infected most other kinds of entertainment, and I don't want them in my MMOs.
Even Dragon Age is on the rip off DLC bandwagon. I think (correct me if I am wrong) that those DLC quests were around 20 bucks and had less than 6 hours to complete... And they sold like mad. This is a trend that worries me as a gamer. Very much.
The Dragon Age DLC components are about $5 each. I think the most expensive is Stone Prisoner and it came with almost every boxed copy of DA:O. As for their quests? I've played and completed every one of the DLC and none of them are more than 2 hours long.
DA:O isn't the first to charge for content. Oblivion also charged for content. Content that many players could make for free and better. The only thing Oblivion had that the players didn't was professional voice acting.
As always, the worth of something is based on the consumer as far as this goes.
As far as my opinion? DLC is an effort to combat piracy by making a slight profit from players who don't buy the game, but want extras from it. In practice, many of the "DLC" components are nothing more than things removed from the game and added later. Stone prisoner is actually a good example. Shale was meant to be included in the game but was removed because of time restraints and then later added as a DLC. (Which is why she was included for free in boxed copies)
I've always thought that paying for content in an MMORPG you already pay for is a bad idea, but as far as single player games go, I think it's fine, because it doesn't effect anyone else or how anyone else plays the game except yourself; whereas micro-transactions in MMORPGs stretch the limits of "Basic" subscription players and "Advanced" players who also buy content.
In reality, the easiest thing to do would be offer tiered subscriptions. I think tiered subscriptions are the future of MMORPGs. We'll have to see, though.
People that havent kept up with the topic dont understand what BW is attempting to do with their $15 downloads in both Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2.
Both games come with a code to receive this content for free with a new game purchase. The ME2 one has been the better deal thus far IMO...as both gave another char and content. The ME2 one just recently also provided a cosmetic update, with the possibility of more in future(Cerberus Network).
It is when someone sells their copy, to a company like GameStop, that the problems occur. The code is only good for one use, thus anyone who would buy the game second hand will be forced to pay the $15.
It is BW/EA way of dealing with the aftermarket of their product(for which they receive no money).
I support this move as GameStop buys used games for crack-head prices, then only knocks off 5 bucks for the used copy vs the cost of an entirely new game. When you add in the cost of the 15 buck download, it becomes cheaper to just buy a new copy in the first place...thus BW receives their just royalties on the game they made.
It does have a downside though. For folks like me, with multiple X-Box 360s in the house(We have 3 Elites, and an original 360 suffering from RROD), if my kids want to play these games I have to plop down 15 bucks each if they wanna play on their consoles, as I wont let them play on my big screen TV.
Even though I hate that EA bought up BW, I will always support BW. They have been my fav game dev since BG1, and until I no longer get an entertaining gaming experience from their storylines, will continue to be.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Forgot to add...BW takes a shot at used game retailers in ME2. There is a guy in Citadel Station that is a used game seller. If you click on him several he makes some humerous comments. One of those is basically "We will give you 2 credits for your used game".
There is also a reference from one of your team mates that is a shout out to a BG1/2 char....but will not spoil it for folks.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
It reminds me of the great North American Video Game crash of 1983. Atari got greedy, much, much greedier than any companies that exist now. For example, they produced the game "E.T. The Extraterrestrial" in about 6 weeks of development time, rushed for xmas, and they expected to sell 5 million copies at $49.95 each (not adjusted for inflation, this was almost 30 years ago). It is one of the worst games ever: it is an adventure maze, you play as ET and must collect 3 pieces of a telephone before time runs out. You can collect black dots (reeses pieces) to extend your time remaining. When the game ends you start over with the score still accumulating. Needless to say, games like this undermined the credibility of the entire industry, and over 3 million copies of ET went unsold and were burried in a landfill. The height of Atari's profits and greed is only matched by the staggering losses they incurred from 1983 and onward. Atari flooded the market with bad games, and retailers lowered prices from $50 down to $10 and many retailers got out of the video game business entirely. In North America we all know that Nintendo saved us in 1985. Nintendo really likes profit, and they are quite ruthless, but they revived the entire industry with their high standards of quality. As expensive as those NES games were, at least they were not greedy profiteering ripoffs, they were all produced up to standards.
For us in 2010, I think things will get worse before they get better, but that if this trend of ripoffs continues the consumers will eventually quit completely. After that it will just be a matter of time until the next value-based reincarnation comes along.
I heard this before and yes this is exactly what we need. I'm willing to wait a couple years for the good quality games to come out again. Away with the bug ridden, incomplete, unoriginal, price raising, unchallenging games a granny is able to play. (wii)
Might not be that far off. The casual audience does not really care about gaming as much as we do. They do not read reviews and with all these bad games on the wii they get burned game after game and will stop buying. Thats what happened in the Atari games crash right? loads of crappy games with a nice boxcover.
Even Dragon Age is on the rip off DLC bandwagon. I think (correct me if I am wrong) that those DLC quests were around 20 bucks and had less than 6 hours to complete... And they sold like mad. This is a trend that worries me as a gamer. Very much.
The Dragon Age DLC components are about $5 each. I think the most expensive is Stone Prisoner and it came with almost every boxed copy of DA:O. As for their quests? I've played and completed every one of the DLC and none of them are more than 2 hours long.
DA:O isn't the first to charge for content. Oblivion also charged for content. Content that many players could make for free and better. The only thing Oblivion had that the players didn't was professional voice acting.
As always, the worth of something is based on the consumer as far as this goes.
As far as my opinion? DLC is an effort to combat piracy by making a slight profit from players who don't buy the game, but want extras from it. In practice, many of the "DLC" components are nothing more than things removed from the game and added later. Stone prisoner is actually a good example. Shale was meant to be included in the game but was removed because of time restraints and then later added as a DLC. (Which is why she was included for free in boxed copies)
I've always thought that paying for content in an MMORPG you already pay for is a bad idea, but as far as single player games go, I think it's fine, because it doesn't effect anyone else or how anyone else plays the game except yourself; whereas micro-transactions in MMORPGs stretch the limits of "Basic" subscription players and "Advanced" players who also buy content.
In reality, the easiest thing to do would be offer tiered subscriptions. I think tiered subscriptions are the future of MMORPGs. We'll have to see, though.
People that havent kept up with the topic dont understand what BW is attempting to do with their $15 downloads in both Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2.
Both games come with a code to receive this content for free with a new game purchase. The ME2 one has been the better deal thus far IMO...as both gave another char and content. The ME2 one just recently also provided a cosmetic update, with the possibility of more in future(Cerberus Network).
It is when someone sells their copy, to a company like GameStop, that the problems occur. The code is only good for one use, thus anyone who would buy the game second hand will be forced to pay the $15.
It is BW/EA way of dealing with the aftermarket of their product(for which they receive no money).
I support this move as GameStop buys used games for crack-head prices, then only knocks off 5 bucks for the used copy vs the cost of an entirely new game. When you add in the cost of the 15 buck download, it becomes cheaper to just buy a new copy in the first place...thus BW receives their just royalties on the game they made.
It does have a downside though. For folks like me, with multiple X-Box 360s in the house(We have 3 Elites, and an original 360 suffering from RROD), if my kids want to play these games I have to plop down 15 bucks each if they wanna play on their consoles, as I wont let them play on my big screen TV.
Even though I hate that EA bought up BW, I will always support BW. They have been my fav game dev since BG1, and until I no longer get an entertaining gaming experience from their storylines, will continue to be.
Then have them deal with the 2nd hand commercial market (like gamestop) another way that does not harm normal consumers like me. I sell my console games to fellow gamers when I get tired of them. In return it makes me able to buy more new games on day 1.
One way for them to deal with the "gamestop" problem is to refuse delivering new game titles to gamestop, if they sell games 2nd hand from their publisher. Problem solved.
This is also a good example of greed. They complain they do not see money from 2nd hand games. Well they already sold the game once. A carpenter is not demanding 20% of a wooden table he once made that is sold 2nd hand.
I'm sorry, but the whole idea of applying the concept of "greed" to what a company charges for a completely voluntary form on entertainment makes me wonder what world people are living in. "What the market will bear" will always be the overriding guideline for what a company charges for a product, short of government intervention. There is a reason MMO sub fees arent $50/mnth, but it sure isnt because of some form of game company altruism where Blizzard and others think they are already making enough money.
Which is not to say that I am a fan of cash shops and the like. On the contrary, I would think very hard before I spent any money on an MMO that charged extra for anything other than cosmetics. But rather than spending time on pointless and misguided rants against the greed of companies, vote with your wallets. It is advice often offered, and almost as often ignored by forumites, but it doesnt make it any less valid.
To use the original poster's example of restaurants charging silverware and napkin fees, and the like. He is quite right in observing that people would be really pissed off. However, the reason restaurant owners chose not to charge such fees isnt because they are somehow "less greedy" that other business owners, but because you can be pretty sure their restaurant would be empty as soon as they started.
I'm sorry, but the whole idea of applying the concept of "greed" to what a company charges for a completely voluntary form on entertainment makes me wonder what world people are living in. "What the market will bear" will always be the overriding guideline for what a company charges for a product, short of government intervention. There is a reason MMO sub fees arent $50/mnth, but it sure isnt because of some form of game company altruism where Blizzard and others think they are already making enough money. Which is not to say that I am a fan of cash shops and the like. On the contrary, I would think very hard before I spent any money on an MMO that charged extra for anything other than cosmetics. But rather than spending time on pointless and misguided rants against the greed of companies, vote with your wallets. It is advice often offered, and almost as often ignored by forumites, but it doesnt make it any less valid. To use the original poster's example of restaurants charging silverware and napkin fees, and the like. He is quite right in observing that people would be really pissed off. However, the reason restaurant owners chose not to charge such fees isnt because they are somehow "less greedy" that other business owners, but because you can be pretty sure their restaurant would be empty as soon as they started.
You're right of course. If noone used cash shops, there would be no games with cash shops. It's just as pointless to blame players for bad business practices as it is to blame companies for being greedy, though. It's kind of like blaming junkies for drug trafficking. I know, one is legal, and the other is not, but both rely on addiction to be profitable. Start off cheap. Get people hooked. Get them to see real value in something they don't need, and wouldn't normally want. Profit.
I'm not saying there should be laws governing these practices. I just don't think "voting with your wallet" has much effect. People who actually care, already do. Those that don't, fund the business. If you really want to vote with your wallet, you should probably donate money to companies with business practices you agree with rather than making a point out of not spending money on the others.
Anyway, I do agree with everything you say. I just hate the trends in the MMO marked, and don't really feel there's anything to do about it. MMO forums are as good a place to vent frustration as any.
It reminds me of the great North American Video Game crash of 1983. Atari got greedy, much, much greedier than any companies that exist now. For example, they produced the game "E.T. The Extraterrestrial" in about 6 weeks of development time, rushed for xmas, and they expected to sell 5 million copies at $49.95 each (not adjusted for inflation, this was almost 30 years ago). It is one of the worst games ever: it is an adventure maze, you play as ET and must collect 3 pieces of a telephone before time runs out. You can collect black dots (reeses pieces) to extend your time remaining. When the game ends you start over with the score still accumulating. Needless to say, games like this undermined the credibility of the entire industry, and over 3 million copies of ET went unsold and were burried in a landfill. The height of Atari's profits and greed is only matched by the staggering losses they incurred from 1983 and onward. Atari flooded the market with bad games, and retailers lowered prices from $50 down to $10 and many retailers got out of the video game business entirely. In North America we all know that Nintendo saved us in 1985. Nintendo really likes profit, and they are quite ruthless, but they revived the entire industry with their high standards of quality. As expensive as those NES games were, at least they were not greedy profiteering ripoffs, they were all produced up to standards.
For us in 2010, I think things will get worse before they get better, but that if this trend of ripoffs continues the consumers will eventually quit completely. After that it will just be a matter of time until the next value-based reincarnation comes along.
Thats a perfect analogy of whats happening. The mmorpg industry started with developers who were passionate about their work. And so we got games that were overflowing with goodness. Look at Asherons Call. Developed by people who were so passionmate about mkaing mmo's. It wasnt the super profitable cash cow game, but the game itself was awesome. Monthly updates every month without fail. The first tuesday of every month, new items, new quests, new storyline, tons of new stuff every month.
Then WoW happens, and the greed bastards of the world take notice.... Next thing you know we are getting sold business models instead of works of passion. Instead of good games we are getting good business models. Ill take my 20 bucks, ok, now here is your gaming experience. Great, now give me another 20 bucks and aill make the screen flash again...
Theres no doubt about it, there are greedy people in this world that ruin things for the rest of us. The Banks and Lenders in general just proved this for the entire US. And then they turn around and try to blame the people they were preying on. WHo they also turned to and asked for help, who they also turned to for bonuses.
There are still good development teams out there. They are just becomign fewer. The business model ones are going to take it as far as they can. Theres enough teenagers out there with their parents credit card numbers tattoo'd on their forearms to ever stop them.
For the rest of us, we can do our research, be vocal, and start identifying the companies who are seeling out.
I think its safe to assume any company that starts charging for in game content is selling out. Arguments could be made either way, im convinced.
I think the best indicater of sell out greed dev teams int he future will be those that try and reach the market through CONSOLE!
The development teams working from a passion to develop great games will stick to the PC format. But you will soon see all the sell out companies quickly trying to breach the console market... mark my words...
I think we are indeed heading towards a MMO crash.
It is noticeable MMOs aren't being able to survive on the flat monthly fee (and not because of development costs, because bandwidth and processing power actually got cheaper and we all should remember MMOs don't aim for high-end consumer specs, the same could be deduced about server specs), with some actually dropping it (the F2P "flood") in order to be competitive.
Add all these and the fact they still keep flooding the market with these rushed or old re-releases and we should all start preparing for it, the average costs will keep increasing more and more for the consumer (even though the monthly fee is static you are getting more and more virtual items for sale).
Theres no doubt about it, there are greedy people in this world that ruin things for the rest of us. The Banks and Lenders in general just proved this for the entire US. And then they turn around and try to blame the people they were preying on. WHo they also turned to and asked for help, who they also turned to for bonuses.
There are still good development teams out there. They are just becomign fewer. The business model ones are going to take it as far as they can. Theres enough teenagers out there with their parents credit card numbers tattoo'd on their forearms to ever stop them.
For the rest of us, we can do our research, be vocal, and start identifying the companies who are seeling out.
I think its safe to assume any company that starts charging for in game content is selling out. Arguments could be made either way, im convinced. I think the best indicater of sell out greed dev teams int he future will be those that try and reach the market through CONSOLE!
The development teams working from a passion to develop great games will stick to the PC format. But you will soon see all the sell out companies quickly trying to breach the console market... mark my words...
The question is, will you get suckered into it?
Hell no. And I agree... But cross platforming is what scares me there. The future MMO being on all Consoles and PC (hell probably with I-Phone applications as well)
Its going to take a good and passionate Indie company to pull it off- Which will be much more possible as technology cheapens- But I suspect it will get alot worse before it gets better.
It is getting harder and harder to find cash shop free servers in any game. I would be willing to pay $19.99/mo + expansions if they just keep the damn cash shops out of game play.
I'm sorry, but the whole idea of applying the concept of "greed" to what a company charges for a completely voluntary form on entertainment makes me wonder what world people are living in.
I don't see how greed has anything to do volentary or involentary and I don't think you were trying to make that distinction. I'm curious to know what you think constitutes greed on behalf of a companies actions. i.e. At what point is has a company gone beyond just wanting to profit from their business actions. I tend to think of greed as "a selfish and excessive desire for more of something than is needed".
Now some people have made the argument that I just want a "free lunch" which isn't true. I fully understand, and stated as much, that companies want to make a profit and that I do not fault them for that. Where I draw the line between a company "wanting profit" and company being "greedy" is when companies take the standard pricing models (Subs) and build as many "extra" fees on top of it as they can or think they can get away with (Subs Plus). You don't seem to consider that the difference between profit and greed but you do agree that you don't like the "Subs Plus" systems.
You said "What the market will bear" and what you were saying is correct but if people who disagree with "Subs Plus" express their opinion and why (in a reasonable manner) then they can effect the opinions of others and drive down "What the market will bear". If you and I both "vote with our wallets" but 10 other people, who may or may not know how the system is changing and how it used to work, are not then you and I will have little impact. Which is why when you say that I, or we, are wasting our time on "pointless and misguided rants" I would disagree. Expressing a different opinion on a matter is not misguided and trying to get others, and MMORPG.com, to understand my point of view is not pointless.
To be fair to everyone here I think that this thread has been one of the more civil, on topic and non-rant filled conversations about this topic that has come up. Course once I say that there will probably be trolls all over the place.
Comments
Greed can be a pretty subjective word. Would you go to work and not expect to be paid for your time? I think not. Well then why would you expect to get anything for free? While I'm sure some companies can be "greedy" with the way they do some of the things they do, I just can't bring myself to blanket an entire industry as "Greedy" just because they want to sell something they worked on. Now the banking industry, well that's another story but the gaming industry? Please.....
Times are hard as we all know, but the free lunch mentality of the gaming community has got to change. People get paid to make adventure packs so it costs someone something to make that pack for you. I don't believe that the sub costs can offset the development costs for something that's not quite big enough to call an expansion but not quite small enough to give away either. So you get to pay for it, or not. In the one case I saw come my way in the form of an adventure pack, I remember it being optional, just like things that are in the micro transaction stores. That means you don't need it to play the game, it won't affect your current experience if you choose to boycott it and your not forced to pay for it. So greed as a motive just doesn't work.
The defense of "I pay my monthly fee to play so I should not have to pay again" just doesn't work either. Most MMO's are $15 a month to play. Roughly $0.50 a day it costs to play. That's not much when you think about how you can not even buy a cola for that anymore. There are overhead costs in running a company, and that goes for business' in every industry. Greed doesn't drive everyone, it's just an easy excuse to use when people don't agree with other peoples business models.
You are a big part of the problem.
Nobody wants a "free lunch" but its getting to the point (due to people putting up with it) that companies that at one time provided a full game for a one time fee and monthly sub are now providing a partial game with a one time fee and a monthly sub AND a ca$h $hop for things which should be in game anyhow.
This at a time when these same companies are laying people off, closing offices and getting rid of overhead- In otherwords, making games cheaper.
These companies are far from 'giving away a free lunch'- These companies are squeezing every dime out of their customers by withholding content unless one pays extra.
-There is a real issue here and if it doesnt get under control soon its going to dominate the industry in online AND offline games- Games will be designed with the sole intent of providing only the very bare essentials and EVERYTHING else will cost. Anyhow, you may not see it now, but you most likely will.
The idea of me paying a sub and then MT fees for cosmetic things doesn't bother me. What bothers me is, my intial payment for the software and then the monthly sub to even use the software I just bought , is being used to pay someone to make fluff items to sell me and get even more money out of me when the money should be going to fix the bugs, game improvements, and further development.
When I see Extra stuff being created to make more money with and the game still has many issues that haven't been fixed (remember, I already paid for the software), then my sub isn't being used properly and it's time to stop playing the game.
I have a feeling my time in this genre is nearing it's end.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
It reminds me of the great North American Video Game crash of 1983. Atari got greedy, much, much greedier than any companies that exist now. For example, they produced the game "E.T. The Extraterrestrial" in about 6 weeks of development time, rushed for xmas, and they expected to sell 5 million copies at $49.95 each (not adjusted for inflation, this was almost 30 years ago). It is one of the worst games ever:
it is an adventure maze, you play as ET and must collect 3 pieces of a telephone before time runs out. You can collect black dots (reeses pieces) to extend your time remaining. When the game ends you start over with the score still accumulating.
Needless to say, games like this undermined the credibility of the entire industry, and over 3 million copies of ET went unsold and were burried in a landfill. The height of Atari's profits and greed is only matched by the staggering losses they incurred from 1983 and onward. Atari flooded the market with bad games, and retailers lowered prices from $50 down to $10 and many retailers got out of the video game business entirely.
In North America we all know that Nintendo saved us in 1985. Nintendo really likes profit, and they are quite ruthless, but they revived the entire industry with their high standards of quality. As expensive as those NES games were, at least they were not greedy profiteering ripoffs, they were all produced up to standards.
For us in 2010, I think things will get worse before they get better, but that if this trend of ripoffs continues the consumers will eventually quit completely. After that it will just be a matter of time until the next value-based reincarnation comes along.
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
I am a big part of the problem? What did I do except make a counterpoint and put into perspective the complaint that is at hand?
Nobody wants a "free lunch" but its getting to the point (due to people putting up with it) that companies that at one time provided a full game for a one time fee and monthly sub are now providing a partial game with a one time fee and a monthly sub AND a ca$h $hop for things which should be in game anyhow.
Can you name me one game and or company that has launched a game purposely withholding content or items that you have to buy because you need them to play that game? Go ahead, I'll wait while you think about it.
This at a time when these same companies are laying people off, closing offices and getting rid of overhead- In otherwords, making games cheaper
Layoffs and office closures do not make games cheaper, in fact I would suspect quite the opposite would occur because without the added workforce it will take longer to get the product to store shelves. Sure layoffs and closures lessen the burden on overhead, but they don't do anything to cut the workload. Just because you play a game doesn't mean it's not work to make and maintain it.
These companies are far from 'giving away a free lunch'- These companies are squeezing every dime out of their customers by withholding content unless one pays extra.
Again, name that game/company.
-There is a real issue here and if it doesnt get under control soon its going to dominate the industry in online AND offline games- Games will be designed with the sole intent of providing only the very bare essentials and EVERYTHING else will cost. Anyhow, you may not see it now, but you most likely will.
That last part is just absurd. I mean come on do you really think that anyone would support that sort of behavior? Sure seems like the quick way to bankruptcy to me.
How come no one here is making comparisons to X-BOX and PS3's online stores? Seems to me that this has been going on for quite some time now but has mostly slipped under the radar because it started out that way for Sony and Microsoft. I know this is a relatively new concept for MMO's. This is game evolution if you ask me, and not greed like some would like to write it off as but what do i know, I'm just some random on the net like everyone else.
Well, at this point its Fluff- But Fluff which should be included in the game.
Example would be Aion basicly charging for its seasonal festival (something which has always been free) and just the fact that in the last year or so subsciption games are adding cash shops which takes devs time from working on the "game" to work on "profit driven cash shop items" in a time when Devs are being layed off.
I am speaking more of the slippery slope we are on. A cash shop has NO place in a P2P and even if it starts as Fluff, corporate nature guarantees it will expand if people use it.
I dont deny many of your points but you are coming from a mindset where- This is as bad as it will get. Its not... I am looking at this more as what this trend will become, and yes, I really see very basic game being the norm and EVERYTHING costing (to be sold as "you only have to pay for the stuff you want to do") FAR more than the 50 dollar box price plus 15 dollars a month we currently pay.
Even Dragon Age is on the rip off DLC bandwagon. I think (correct me if I am wrong) that those DLC quests were around 20 bucks and had less than 6 hours to complete... And they sold like mad. This is a trend that worries me as a gamer. Very much.
Excuse my grammar and perhaps my incoherancy- Been up all night and still have like 5 more hours to go till I can sleep.
I wasnt meaning to personally say YOU are the problem- Its the attitude that its okay to do these things (sub and cash shop)- Which I know will (if profitable) dominate everything.
No offense taken so no worries.
The Dragon Age DLC components are about $5 each. I think the most expensive is Stone Prisoner and it came with almost every boxed copy of DA:O. As for their quests? I've played and completed every one of the DLC and none of them are more than 2 hours long.
DA:O isn't the first to charge for content. Oblivion also charged for content. Content that many players could make for free and better. The only thing Oblivion had that the players didn't was professional voice acting.
As always, the worth of something is based on the consumer as far as this goes.
As far as my opinion? DLC is an effort to combat piracy by making a slight profit from players who don't buy the game, but want extras from it. In practice, many of the "DLC" components are nothing more than things removed from the game and added later. Stone prisoner is actually a good example. Shale was meant to be included in the game but was removed because of time restraints and then later added as a DLC. (Which is why she was included for free in boxed copies)
I've always thought that paying for content in an MMORPG you already pay for is a bad idea, but as far as single player games go, I think it's fine, because it doesn't effect anyone else or how anyone else plays the game except yourself; whereas micro-transactions in MMORPGs stretch the limits of "Basic" subscription players and "Advanced" players who also buy content.
In reality, the easiest thing to do would be offer tiered subscriptions. I think tiered subscriptions are the future of MMORPGs. We'll have to see, though.
I don't think it's enough to stop using cash shops. Players have to cancel their subscriptions and state that cash shops/RMT/disagreeing with the business model is the reason for canceling. If they lose more in monthly subscriptions fees in a way that can be traced directly to the cash shops than they earn each month from having them, it'll be an incentive to get rid of them. As long as having cash shops seems more profitable than not having them, the only reason to get rid of them/not introduce them, is principles.
Personally, I would never play an MMO that relied on more than the subscription fee for profits. I can afford it, but I'd rather pay a higher subscription fee if the additional content is high quality and they don't feel the regular subscription fee covers the cost of producing it. Ads and "beggars" have infected most other kinds of entertainment, and I don't want them in my MMOs.
The Dragon Age DLC components are about $5 each. I think the most expensive is Stone Prisoner and it came with almost every boxed copy of DA:O. As for their quests? I've played and completed every one of the DLC and none of them are more than 2 hours long.
DA:O isn't the first to charge for content. Oblivion also charged for content. Content that many players could make for free and better. The only thing Oblivion had that the players didn't was professional voice acting.
As always, the worth of something is based on the consumer as far as this goes.
As far as my opinion? DLC is an effort to combat piracy by making a slight profit from players who don't buy the game, but want extras from it. In practice, many of the "DLC" components are nothing more than things removed from the game and added later. Stone prisoner is actually a good example. Shale was meant to be included in the game but was removed because of time restraints and then later added as a DLC. (Which is why she was included for free in boxed copies)
I've always thought that paying for content in an MMORPG you already pay for is a bad idea, but as far as single player games go, I think it's fine, because it doesn't effect anyone else or how anyone else plays the game except yourself; whereas micro-transactions in MMORPGs stretch the limits of "Basic" subscription players and "Advanced" players who also buy content.
In reality, the easiest thing to do would be offer tiered subscriptions. I think tiered subscriptions are the future of MMORPGs. We'll have to see, though.
People that havent kept up with the topic dont understand what BW is attempting to do with their $15 downloads in both Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2.
Both games come with a code to receive this content for free with a new game purchase. The ME2 one has been the better deal thus far IMO...as both gave another char and content. The ME2 one just recently also provided a cosmetic update, with the possibility of more in future(Cerberus Network).
It is when someone sells their copy, to a company like GameStop, that the problems occur. The code is only good for one use, thus anyone who would buy the game second hand will be forced to pay the $15.
It is BW/EA way of dealing with the aftermarket of their product(for which they receive no money).
I support this move as GameStop buys used games for crack-head prices, then only knocks off 5 bucks for the used copy vs the cost of an entirely new game. When you add in the cost of the 15 buck download, it becomes cheaper to just buy a new copy in the first place...thus BW receives their just royalties on the game they made.
It does have a downside though. For folks like me, with multiple X-Box 360s in the house(We have 3 Elites, and an original 360 suffering from RROD), if my kids want to play these games I have to plop down 15 bucks each if they wanna play on their consoles, as I wont let them play on my big screen TV.
Even though I hate that EA bought up BW, I will always support BW. They have been my fav game dev since BG1, and until I no longer get an entertaining gaming experience from their storylines, will continue to be.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Sorry for dbl post....
Forgot to add...BW takes a shot at used game retailers in ME2. There is a guy in Citadel Station that is a used game seller. If you click on him several he makes some humerous comments. One of those is basically "We will give you 2 credits for your used game".
There is also a reference from one of your team mates that is a shout out to a BG1/2 char....but will not spoil it for folks.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I heard this before and yes this is exactly what we need. I'm willing to wait a couple years for the good quality games to come out again. Away with the bug ridden, incomplete, unoriginal, price raising, unchallenging games a granny is able to play. (wii)
Might not be that far off. The casual audience does not really care about gaming as much as we do. They do not read reviews and with all these bad games on the wii they get burned game after game and will stop buying. Thats what happened in the Atari games crash right? loads of crappy games with a nice boxcover.
The Dragon Age DLC components are about $5 each. I think the most expensive is Stone Prisoner and it came with almost every boxed copy of DA:O. As for their quests? I've played and completed every one of the DLC and none of them are more than 2 hours long.
DA:O isn't the first to charge for content. Oblivion also charged for content. Content that many players could make for free and better. The only thing Oblivion had that the players didn't was professional voice acting.
As always, the worth of something is based on the consumer as far as this goes.
As far as my opinion? DLC is an effort to combat piracy by making a slight profit from players who don't buy the game, but want extras from it. In practice, many of the "DLC" components are nothing more than things removed from the game and added later. Stone prisoner is actually a good example. Shale was meant to be included in the game but was removed because of time restraints and then later added as a DLC. (Which is why she was included for free in boxed copies)
I've always thought that paying for content in an MMORPG you already pay for is a bad idea, but as far as single player games go, I think it's fine, because it doesn't effect anyone else or how anyone else plays the game except yourself; whereas micro-transactions in MMORPGs stretch the limits of "Basic" subscription players and "Advanced" players who also buy content.
In reality, the easiest thing to do would be offer tiered subscriptions. I think tiered subscriptions are the future of MMORPGs. We'll have to see, though.
People that havent kept up with the topic dont understand what BW is attempting to do with their $15 downloads in both Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2.
Both games come with a code to receive this content for free with a new game purchase. The ME2 one has been the better deal thus far IMO...as both gave another char and content. The ME2 one just recently also provided a cosmetic update, with the possibility of more in future(Cerberus Network).
It is when someone sells their copy, to a company like GameStop, that the problems occur. The code is only good for one use, thus anyone who would buy the game second hand will be forced to pay the $15.
It is BW/EA way of dealing with the aftermarket of their product(for which they receive no money).
I support this move as GameStop buys used games for crack-head prices, then only knocks off 5 bucks for the used copy vs the cost of an entirely new game. When you add in the cost of the 15 buck download, it becomes cheaper to just buy a new copy in the first place...thus BW receives their just royalties on the game they made.
It does have a downside though. For folks like me, with multiple X-Box 360s in the house(We have 3 Elites, and an original 360 suffering from RROD), if my kids want to play these games I have to plop down 15 bucks each if they wanna play on their consoles, as I wont let them play on my big screen TV.
Even though I hate that EA bought up BW, I will always support BW. They have been my fav game dev since BG1, and until I no longer get an entertaining gaming experience from their storylines, will continue to be.
Then have them deal with the 2nd hand commercial market (like gamestop) another way that does not harm normal consumers like me. I sell my console games to fellow gamers when I get tired of them. In return it makes me able to buy more new games on day 1.
One way for them to deal with the "gamestop" problem is to refuse delivering new game titles to gamestop, if they sell games 2nd hand from their publisher. Problem solved.
This is also a good example of greed. They complain they do not see money from 2nd hand games. Well they already sold the game once. A carpenter is not demanding 20% of a wooden table he once made that is sold 2nd hand.
imo cosmetic items are ok and if they drop in pvp even better
BestSigEver :P
I'm sorry, but the whole idea of applying the concept of "greed" to what a company charges for a completely voluntary form on entertainment makes me wonder what world people are living in. "What the market will bear" will always be the overriding guideline for what a company charges for a product, short of government intervention. There is a reason MMO sub fees arent $50/mnth, but it sure isnt because of some form of game company altruism where Blizzard and others think they are already making enough money.
Which is not to say that I am a fan of cash shops and the like. On the contrary, I would think very hard before I spent any money on an MMO that charged extra for anything other than cosmetics. But rather than spending time on pointless and misguided rants against the greed of companies, vote with your wallets. It is advice often offered, and almost as often ignored by forumites, but it doesnt make it any less valid.
To use the original poster's example of restaurants charging silverware and napkin fees, and the like. He is quite right in observing that people would be really pissed off. However, the reason restaurant owners chose not to charge such fees isnt because they are somehow "less greedy" that other business owners, but because you can be pretty sure their restaurant would be empty as soon as they started.
You're right of course. If noone used cash shops, there would be no games with cash shops. It's just as pointless to blame players for bad business practices as it is to blame companies for being greedy, though. It's kind of like blaming junkies for drug trafficking. I know, one is legal, and the other is not, but both rely on addiction to be profitable. Start off cheap. Get people hooked. Get them to see real value in something they don't need, and wouldn't normally want. Profit.
I'm not saying there should be laws governing these practices. I just don't think "voting with your wallet" has much effect. People who actually care, already do. Those that don't, fund the business. If you really want to vote with your wallet, you should probably donate money to companies with business practices you agree with rather than making a point out of not spending money on the others.
Anyway, I do agree with everything you say. I just hate the trends in the MMO marked, and don't really feel there's anything to do about it. MMO forums are as good a place to vent frustration as any.
Thats a perfect analogy of whats happening. The mmorpg industry started with developers who were passionate about their work. And so we got games that were overflowing with goodness. Look at Asherons Call. Developed by people who were so passionmate about mkaing mmo's. It wasnt the super profitable cash cow game, but the game itself was awesome. Monthly updates every month without fail. The first tuesday of every month, new items, new quests, new storyline, tons of new stuff every month.
Then WoW happens, and the greed bastards of the world take notice.... Next thing you know we are getting sold business models instead of works of passion. Instead of good games we are getting good business models. Ill take my 20 bucks, ok, now here is your gaming experience. Great, now give me another 20 bucks and aill make the screen flash again...
Theres no doubt about it, there are greedy people in this world that ruin things for the rest of us. The Banks and Lenders in general just proved this for the entire US. And then they turn around and try to blame the people they were preying on. WHo they also turned to and asked for help, who they also turned to for bonuses.
There are still good development teams out there. They are just becomign fewer. The business model ones are going to take it as far as they can. Theres enough teenagers out there with their parents credit card numbers tattoo'd on their forearms to ever stop them.
For the rest of us, we can do our research, be vocal, and start identifying the companies who are seeling out.
I think its safe to assume any company that starts charging for in game content is selling out. Arguments could be made either way, im convinced.
I think the best indicater of sell out greed dev teams int he future will be those that try and reach the market through CONSOLE!
The development teams working from a passion to develop great games will stick to the PC format. But you will soon see all the sell out companies quickly trying to breach the console market... mark my words...
The question is, will you get suckered into it?
I think we are indeed heading towards a MMO crash.
It is noticeable MMOs aren't being able to survive on the flat monthly fee (and not because of development costs, because bandwidth and processing power actually got cheaper and we all should remember MMOs don't aim for high-end consumer specs, the same could be deduced about server specs), with some actually dropping it (the F2P "flood") in order to be competitive.
Add all these and the fact they still keep flooding the market with these rushed or old re-releases and we should all start preparing for it, the average costs will keep increasing more and more for the consumer (even though the monthly fee is static you are getting more and more virtual items for sale).
And they deserve it.
Hell no. And I agree... But cross platforming is what scares me there. The future MMO being on all Consoles and PC (hell probably with I-Phone applications as well)
Its going to take a good and passionate Indie company to pull it off- Which will be much more possible as technology cheapens- But I suspect it will get alot worse before it gets better.
It is getting harder and harder to find cash shop free servers in any game. I would be willing to pay $19.99/mo + expansions if they just keep the damn cash shops out of game play.
I don't see how greed has anything to do volentary or involentary and I don't think you were trying to make that distinction. I'm curious to know what you think constitutes greed on behalf of a companies actions. i.e. At what point is has a company gone beyond just wanting to profit from their business actions. I tend to think of greed as "a selfish and excessive desire for more of something than is needed".
Now some people have made the argument that I just want a "free lunch" which isn't true. I fully understand, and stated as much, that companies want to make a profit and that I do not fault them for that. Where I draw the line between a company "wanting profit" and company being "greedy" is when companies take the standard pricing models (Subs) and build as many "extra" fees on top of it as they can or think they can get away with (Subs Plus). You don't seem to consider that the difference between profit and greed but you do agree that you don't like the "Subs Plus" systems.
You said "What the market will bear" and what you were saying is correct but if people who disagree with "Subs Plus" express their opinion and why (in a reasonable manner) then they can effect the opinions of others and drive down "What the market will bear". If you and I both "vote with our wallets" but 10 other people, who may or may not know how the system is changing and how it used to work, are not then you and I will have little impact. Which is why when you say that I, or we, are wasting our time on "pointless and misguided rants" I would disagree. Expressing a different opinion on a matter is not misguided and trying to get others, and MMORPG.com, to understand my point of view is not pointless.
To be fair to everyone here I think that this thread has been one of the more civil, on topic and non-rant filled conversations about this topic that has come up. Course once I say that there will probably be trolls all over the place.