Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
No such thing as a casual MMO.
Jimmy_Scythe
Member CommonPosts: 3,586
I have some hard fast rules that define a game as casual:
- An entire level or game round only takes between 3 to 5 minutes to complete.
- The user interface is either WASD + mouse (arena shooter) or the arrow keys plus no more than four action keys
- Multiplayer consists of either 4 player free for all or (AT MOST) 3 on 3 team play.
Examples of casual games would be Galcon Fusion, Off-Road Velociraptor Safari and FastCrawl.
MMOs, by their very nature are not casual. I dare you to find one MMO where you can even play for 30 minutes and still feel rewarded, even on the lower levels. Maybe some browser MMOs can fall into this catagory since you can define your entire list of actions for the day over a coffee break, but when I see the words "casual" and "MMO" together it usually means an item mall game that only requires an hour and half of game time until you hit the lvl 10 wall and have to buy stuff to lessen the ungodly pain of the grind.
You see, casual games are like early arcaded games. Short, intense, and rewarding in and of themselves. Yes, games like Peggle and Bookworm use pleasant artwork, colored lights and exciting sound effects waaaayyyyyyy out of proportion of your level of accomplishment to make you feel like you're doing well and keep you playing. That isn't the same as bribing you with an actual reward in order for you to feel rewarded. Once you cross into the nickel and dime reward systems of MMOs, you are making a decision to force a grind on the players. You are hedging your bets that if the game isn't any fun, at least the OCD crowd will buy and play your game just to collect every little item and acheivement.
If it involves hours of Grind, it isn't casual. See rule #1. If it has three hotbars worth of "skills" and about five different screens to navigate, inventory, character, quest, crafting, etc., then it isn't casual. See rule #2. If it has open PvP areas with 100+ People free for all or 100+ people per faction in the area, then it isn't casual. See rule #3. MMOs cannot be casual. Period.
Comments
The beautiful thing about our world is that many things aren't all black and white. Same thing goes for mmo's. What one person defines as casual could be completely different from someone else.
I define casual differently.
Time-Based - You play casually, meaning < 20 hours a week.
Not everyone judges a game based on how soon you will be rewarded. Whether you're gaining a level every day or not doesn't define whether or not you're playing casually. As long as you're moving in the right direction, you're doing fine for the most part. This is the beauty of MMO's. They can be completed quickly, so you can move on to the next MMO, or you can take your time and progress very slowly. Progress is still progress, whether you feel rewarded every 5min or every few hours of gameplay.
You define casual in an extremely limited way and one that I doubt even one other person agrees with and then by your definition you declare that there is no such thing as a casual mmo. I declare your post has very limited content.
Fighting the good fight.
I'll have to agree with alot of this.
Excactly.
Playing Fallen Earth since release, where some players have spend less time and already have capped lvl or even several cap lvl'd toons, my main is now 26 and a Alt rifleman lvl 12, to me that's me playing the game very casual.
Felt the same way about Star Wars Galaxies again a very casual game as I could progress any time and didn't need to be playing 24/7, tho at time I actualy did spend allot of time with it it still was a very casual MMORPG for me.
People who have this playstyle of grind will probebly not understand what casual in this genre means in the way I consider it due to having that grind playstyle they themselfs put onto their own. Havn't played a MMORPG that had grind, but again that's mainly due to my playstyle, since I dislike grind I chose not to have such playstyle.
you grind with 3 hotbards and have five different screens and theres open pvp areas which are only open in some closed area?
and you dont feel rewarded even on the "lower levels"
sounds allmost fun
you should try "casual"Massive Multiplayer Online called Team Fortress 2,even at "lower levels" you get rewarded even in 10 secs ingame
Generation P
Well I define a game, as casual, if it has fluffy bunnies. No fluffy bunnies - no casual!
Please use hard terms next, to avoid looking ignorant.
P.S. Casual car driving is still much more complicated, than casual bycicle driving. It's all in the perspective.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
OH NOEZ!!!! I defined something!!! You can't do that!!! You have to leave terms like "casual" and "hardcore" and "sandbox" no more than vaguely realized bullshit so that people can argue pointlessly about them on forums like this one!!!
Go check out Miniclip or Kongregate or Arcadepod. Hang out at Jay is Games for a week or two. Play all the games over at Blurst. These sites represent the casual market. Most of it is web based with advertising revenue, but some of it is direct download retail. Much of the casual market is a combination of the two business models. If you play enough of those games, two hours ought to be enough to play a good number of them, you'll see that all of the rules in my definition are at play. The three rules I listed are the common characteristics of the most popular casual games out there. From Diner Dash to Gemcraft Chapter Zero, they are all short play sessions with simple, intuitive controls.
And BTW, 20 hours a week is a part time job. I don't think that a simple line of time commitment, on the part of the gamer, is sufficient to establish the difference between casual and hardcore. I can play Pac Man for 48 hours straight if I choose. But a single game of Pac Man only lasts between 30 seconds (N00B) to ten minutes (if you're good).... or six hours if you happen to be Billy Mitchell.....
Any game can be played hardcore. So if we catagorize a game as casual, mainstream or hardcore, we have to look at the common characteristics of games that are labeled as such and not the behavior of the gamers who play these games. I can play Off-Road Velociraptor Safari all day long, but you can play through one game of it in less than three minutes. Likewise, I can take WoW in five minute sessions, but I'm not going to get anywhere and I'll spend more time waiting for the game to load than actually playing it. Obviously, these two games are aimed at different audiences.
MMORPGs do not fit the criteria for casual games as established by the games themselves. The term "casual MMORPG" is an oxymoron.
My definition of casual, and I suspect for most people this is true is; "Something I do when I feel like it, when I don't HAVE to do it."
Which pretty much makes up every activity in my life except eating, sleeping, drinking and working.
The rest of it is "casual", I can take or leave anything at any given moment.
Anyone who is deluded enough to believe that any gaming, no matter how committed, that isn't some form of employment isn't "casual" needs to seek medical assistance.
It's all in the eye of the beholder.
I once went to a non-MMORPG gaming forum and the disagreement there was whether someone who played a game for 15 hours a month would still be considered a 'casual' player. To the average gamer MMORPG players are all 'hardcore'.
so what you are asking from yourself is actually ,whats RPG?
You should try to play paper & pen RPGs for few months ,and then that your wow example for few months and then try to find similarities and differences.
Generation P
In Age of Conan in 30 minutes I can knock out a few quests and sell stuff on the Trader. At level 40, I can still knock out a quest or two, do some crafting, and sell on the Trader. Very rewarding, actually.
The term you are using, and thus defining is not a term that I would associate with a game itself. The term "casual", or its defined polar opposite, "hardcore", are instead, to me, a definition of the player themself. Even then, the terms can be used and categorized in many different ways. Some examples of the categories follow.
Time Spent Playing
Defined solely by the attribute of amount of time spent playing a game during a specfic interval. Again, these numbers themselves are arbitrary. It depends on who is defining the player, as to what the benchmark timeframe is.
Casual - Someone who spends less than 20 hours a week playing.
Hardcore - Someone who spends more than 20 hours a week playing.
Activity Level
Defined solely by the attribute of activity level of game sessions, regardless of length of time.
Casual - Someone who isn't regularly focused on any specific task or goal. This player mainly just wanders around "looking for things to do".
Hardcore - Someone who has a regimented schedule planned out of the day's activities. Again, regardless of length of time played. This player knows where he is going, what he is going to do and knows what he is going to do long after he completes each task before him. This is the type of player who will plan out his activities in an effort to maximize effectiveness, such as the best experience gain per hour played.
Dedication Level
Defined solely by the attribute of dedication to the game's available aspects.
Casual - Someone who doesn't care about going everywhere or seeing everything. This player is not concerned with all the possible side quests or achievements.
Hardcore - This player is your professional "Badge Hunter". He strives to take his character to every possible location. He will attempt to complete every possible quest. He will also try to aquire every possible badge/achievement the game may have. This will also spill over into other things, like your "collectors". People who will try to own one of all the game's available "pets" or other similar items.
Prefered Combat Type
Defined solely by the type of combat prefered when playing.
Casual - Someone who does not partake in player versus player combat. This player prefers to combat computer controlled characters instead of a fellow player.
Hardcore - Someone who only plays a game for its player versus player combat. This player will most likely find computer controlled character combat boring or without challenge.
As you can see, most will not agree with you by your very narrow definition. In fact, some, like myself, do not agree that the terms casual and/or hardcore, can even apply to a game itself. I do understand the point you are trying to make but alas, I must disagree with your assessment, even if I were to agree that such a moniker could apply to a game.
In my opinion, it is completely and totally based on the player, as to whether or not they are casual or hardcore.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
Casual is relative a relative term. A casual MMO definition must be defined in terms of the spectrum of existing MMOs.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
I'd consider, say Runescape a casual mmorpg. Nearly instant gratification, log in for x minutes and still be productive etc.
Before someone comes along and says "BUT ITS A BROWSER BASED GAME AND JAVA OMGG!214" i will counter-reply with the fact they are completely clueless.
If we go by your definition, yes, no mmorpg is casual.
But no one agrees to your definition. My definition is that you can advance reasonably forward with an hour of straight play a night. I'm sure many won't agree with mine either.
Agreed. The original post simply builds a straw man and then argues against it.
"I dare you to find one MMO where you can even play for 30 minutes and still feel rewarded, even on the lower levels." - JS
That's pretty much the defining line of your whole post. It obviates the fact that you cannot conceive of any play style other than your own. You seem very set in your particular view of how MMOs are to be played, and that could be why you can so confidently issue a 'dare' on such an easily refutable issue.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nonsense.
Facebook social MMOs are casual MMOs. Farmville has 31+ million players, and it's not because it's "hardcore". I'm currently in what is essentially a 38-man raid in Castle Age (the player cap for this activity is 100.) The raid is partially PVP even (the fiction is that you're involved in a PVE siege, but you advance the siege's progress by battling random players and defeating them.)
If you're going to insist social MMOs aren't MMOs, then you're basically saying "Of the hardcore MMORPGs, none of them are casual." Well, duh! if you're going to strictly speak only about the hardcore MMOs then yes, none of them are casual. Obviously.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A casual MMORPG is for me a game you can log on and off infrequently for different amounts of time and still progress and have some fun.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
That's what it is for me, as well. The aspect of MMOs that works against casual gaming isn't so much a game mechanic as it is the feeling that one needs to keep up with everyone else. That's not a game design issue that's a human behavior issue. Put a big white number in the upper corner of the screen and suddenly it becomes the most important goal - it's the easiest to work towards as there is no thinking involved, just repetition.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
so what you are asking from yourself is actually ,whats RPG?
You should try to play paper & pen RPGs for few months ,and then that your wow example for few months and then try to find similarities and differences.
No. There are casual RPGs. Aside from the aforementioned FastCrawl there is Lost Labyrinth and Half Minute Hero. There are certian entries in the Mystery Dungeon series that fit the bill as well. In fact, if it wasn't for the convoluted and painful interfaces, most Roguelikes would fall very solidly into the casual catagory.
This doesn't work. Since casual FPS games, casual platform games, casual strategy games, casual sports games, etc., all share the characteristics listed. A casual MMO would also have to have those characteristics. Again, it isn't the player or the player expectations that define a game as casual. The defining features are simplicity and brief play sessions.
On this site, calling Farmville an MMO is heresy. Hell, it's debateable as to whether or not some of these things are even games. If all I have to do is check a few boxes and come back in a day or so, you can't really say that I'm playing these things as much as playing with them.
Now games like Neptune's Pride are obviously games. But now we have a question of whether we're going to measure time per session or overall time played. in the case of Neptune's Pride, a game can take several weeks to play out, but on a daily basis you're only actively playing for about 10 to twenty minutes. I'm pretty sure that the ease of interface rules Neptune's Pride out, but the question is still there.
This is almost funny.
What the OP and everyone else seem to be lacking, and often confusting for subjectivity, is CONTEXT.
In the context of MMOs there are casual and hardcore ones and casual MMO players and hardcore ones.
To use a term that has a level of subjectivity and remove context and then blanket a definition is rather dumb to be frank. There are different types of games. Some label themselves as casual games. Because those games are casual in thier conext doesn't mean that an MMO can not be casual in any context.
You did list a bunch of casual games. But every genre of game has examples of more casual or more hardcore of that genre.
You wanted an example where you can get a satisfactory feeling of accomplishment from playing an MMO in 30 minutes or less? Many crafting professions in many MMOs: SWG, EVE or PotBS to name a few.
30 min or less combat/leveling: Global Agenda, WoW PvP.
Those are ones I have experience with. I'm sure more are out there.
On this site, calling Farmville an MMO is heresy. Hell, it's debateable as to whether or not some of these things are even games. If all I have to do is check a few boxes and come back in a day or so, you can't really say that I'm playing these things as much as playing with them.
Now games like Neptune's Pride are obviously games. But now we have a question of whether we're going to measure time per session or overall time played. in the case of Neptune's Pride, a game can take several weeks to play out, but on a daily basis you're only actively playing for about 10 to twenty minutes. I'm pretty sure that the ease of interface rules Neptune's Pride out, but the question is still there.
Castle Age is a better example, as it involves more direct coordination between large groups of players. Regardless of whether MMORPG.com or its posters think it's somehow beneath them to acknowledge such games, it is a social MMORPG.
But yeah, it boils down to you asking one of two questions:
The latter question is silly.
The former question is more open-minded to the actual gameplay. And in Castle Age's case, it's pretty dang casual (as well as being Massive, Multiplayer, Online, and an RPG.) There's tricks to "doing well in PVP" (you have to hunt down a bunch of items to amp up your chances, as well as recruiting a ton of friends) but to just play the game normally is incredibly simple and completely casual.
As for Neptune's Pride, that's an 8-player multiplayer game (not an MMO.) It also isn't particularly casual (straightforward, simplified 4X game though it may be.) It's a little odd to pick out Neptune's Pride when there's such a long list of similar strategy games which are MMOs (Astro Wars, Utopia, Travian, Freesky Online, etc.) (NP not being an MMO actually avoids the major reasons MMO Web Strategy games suck, but that's offtopic.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver