Originally posted by Wizardry Battlegrounds are just another way Blizzard creates a carrot on a stick.These are nothing more than loot chasing with zero challenge,there is no challenge because you do not really die,there is no penalty for dying,you just respawn in a different spot then run back ,rinse and repeat,grab your rewards,rinse and repeat,very shallow design. ...
Aren't video games in general a giant carrot on a stick? Trying to treat an MMORPG like WoW as a big waste of time is a bit ironic because that's the whole point of video games to begin with. Rather than sit at home and be bored, you could play video games like WoW or <insert favorite MMO here> to help you pass the time. If these aren't entertaining someone enough, they either need to find something/somewhere else to have fun or they can just sit there be at a complete loss while everyone else enjoys their respective game/genre. In the end, we're all trying to chase a big carrot on a stick and many people seem to be enjoying every bit of it.
PvP in Wow is an afterthought, especially the battle grounds. At least they removed the twinks from the lower level ones because the average gamer would not have a chance otherwise.
The problem with pvp in Wow is that death is such a non event. You cannot have good pvp where death does not impose decent penalties.
Nice article. It would have been nice with some WG (Warsong Gulch) pics to go along with it.
As for the twinking, it's long gone as the twink community is still alive and no longer have to bitch at the scrubs/noobs/etc. The highest geared players now in every bracket are the die hard PvPers that are leveling and generally in good BoA (Bind on Account) gear. The BoA gear (shoulders/chest) give extra XP too, so those players tend to level fast thru BGs or questing. Warsong Gulch is actually fun again (played two twink - lots of fun too), as you now have more variety of people queueing, less bitching and the team makeup changes game to game. Only at 80 when you hit WG with premades can it be a rugged battle. Also the level 80s that are in BGs are often really well geared.
All the BG's have their good/bad. Personally I'd love changes to AV as the zergfest is boring and repetitive, although this is generally only in the level 80 group. AV shouldn't be consistently 5-6 minutes long! Having a 'daily quest' for the BG offers gold, more xp, honor, etc. and the 'honor' gear is necessary to compete in PvP at the higher levels. Overall the latest changes to WoW have made it more fun as there are more variety of BGs (Warsong Gulch, Arathi, AV, Eye of the Storm, Strand of the Ancients, Isle of Conquest and Wintersgrasp) Although I wish they'd fix Wintersgrasp make it Battlegroup wide and get rid of the damn tenacity. It doesn't work.
Someone had mentioned that WoW should have rare recipe drops - they do. There have always been rare recipe drops in the instances and rare world drops. The new LFG tool, you get a loot bag at the end, always something pertaining to you class. So LFG is no longer an issue, queues are short 15 at the outside usually 1-3 minutes for a tank, 5 maybe for a healer.
It's a fun game and there are endless things to do, I know guildmates that only arena/BG, those that only raid, those that do world events/chase achievements and the blend that is the majority of WoW players that enjoy the variety.
I've played a number of MMO's over the years and other than EQ, EQII, I've not enjoyed any other MMO for any length of time as much as I do WoW.
So, if you don't like WoW don't play it! Pretty simple.
what i dont get is if they want to be eilte at lvl 19 ,29,39,49,59,69,79 bracket ,why they dont ALL lock lovel and leave the regular bg to the regular people?
The twink queues are atrociously long. You can queue all night long and not get in a game in some brackets.
They did the same thing to premade teams awhile back. They made it so that if you join the BG as a team (in a multiplayer game?!) then you basically didn't get to play because the queues could be over two hours long.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
PvP in Wow is an afterthought, especially the battle grounds. At least they removed the twinks from the lower level ones because the average gamer would not have a chance otherwise.
The problem with pvp in Wow is that death is such a non event. You cannot have good pvp where death does not impose decent penalties.
It doesn't sound like you've played the game at all. Just compile everything you've heard and carry on the hate.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Originally posted by svenson I can't believe nobody has mentioned this. You only get XP from battlegrounds if you COMPLETE the objectives!!!! Like in warsong gulch you will ONLY get xp if you cap the flag. But most twinks dont like to cap the flags, they prefer just to sit in the middle of the field 2-3 shotting people. The twink community as far as ive seen is very much alive in NON XP LOCKED battlegrounds. On my low level chars the BGs are still completely unplayable.
Finally someone who sounds like they've actually played some wg recently. Another big issue that ruins these low level bg's is the fact that EVERYONE is in those freakin' heirlooms. But don't stop there, if you have heirlooms that means you have an 80 with gold. What does that mean? Crusader, 15 agi, stam up the butt.. at least mongoose was moved out of that gear's range. I rolled up on a new server for a dungeon group with my friends, and there's no way I'm shelling out $25 to move my main over so that means I'm left to the mercy of these no skill semi-twinks. Instead of having three or four invincible super-people per bg, now it's an army of almost-invincible clickers
Battlegrounds are just another way Blizzard creates a carrot on a stick.These are nothing more than loot chasing with zero challenge,there is no challenge because you do not really die,there is no penalty for dying,you just respawn in a different spot then run back ,rinse and repeat,grab your rewards,rinse and repeat,very shallow design. Blizzard has an extremely hard time creating challenging content,EVERYTHING they design is just easy mode to have players coming back for rewards/loot,EVERY single aspect of Blizzard's design always points to this.This might be working well for them,but it does nothing to make players think or create some new ideas or content to the genre,it is just the same old same old every time,MORE instances chasing loot rewards. This might be all the MAJORITY of WOW players understand and know,after all WOW was their first game,but Blizzard is NOT helping this genre move forward,they are just reliving what makes them money,nothing more.This is called MONEY development NOT game development. The problem for Blizzard is that their game engine is so weak,there is nothing more they can do but continue to create instances with carrots on a stick,keep those subscriptions coming back to chase rewards.Instead put some MEANING into the content,even a weak game engine allows for meaning,but Blizzard just does not have the ability it seems in their management,they are one dimensional designers. Example of MEANING.I will let Blizzard slide and continue their cheap Instances design,but how about have players die and they are booted out?You die you get no reward?How about have reasons inside the instance that relay into the real game world?perhaps have bosses that drop rare recipes or rare crafting items?how about players that get the most kills inside the battle get a certain reward and those that heal the most get a certain reward?How about the player that defends the structure the longest gets bonus rewards? How about you fight to gain control of a certain structure,then once you win you have a certain amount of time to unlock secrets that take team work,that offer rewards or perhaps you can unlock the ability to set traps,why does it have to be so simplistic as to just PVP each other and win that structure,grab your reward and thanks for coming out?How about a ranking system for successive wins?or just successive survival in each Battleground?The rank can continue into the real world giving players bonuses to speed or bonuses to battle,after all it is called Battlegrounds make some bonuses to battle,makes sense.
What a bunch of nonsense. Adding more penalties for dying does not make a game more challenging. After all the combat and enemies you fight will remain exactly the same, regardless death penalty.
Adding a death penalty only increases the timesink of having to regain lost experience or items or haviing to play through the same content again they already beat. Thats not challenging, thats just increasing the timesink.
Also, your description of WoW is very inaccurate. There are instances but WoW has much more to offer than just instances.
Adding more penalties for dying creates consequences for DUMB play.
All I have to say is this....
Arathi Basin
I was perched at Lumbermill in an Arathi Basin, directing traffic, and saw the same guy run SOLO into a group of 4+ at Blacksmith.......only to burned down in an instant. Same guy rezes up and runs RIGHT BACK to the same group at Blacksmith and dies AGAIN.
Instead of this guy helping out another group that might have been slightly outnumbered or outgunned.....he's off doing his own thing, engaging in combat where it doesn't matter or engaging in combat where they have ZERO impact on the match as a whole.
It happens time and time again....
Warsong Gultch
I got thrown into a WSG match that was already in progress and the Horde team had wiped the majority of our raid. As everyone rezed at the Graveyard, they ran off the cliff into a waiting group of Horde in a single file fashion....getting picked off one by one. NO ONE had the presence of mind to maybe GO AROUND the group of baddies as a collective group.
Why?
Because no harm no foul for dieing.
Arathi Valley
I capped Ice Wing Bunker by myself and called for support. There were atleast 15 fellow Horde players fighting RIGHT OUTSIDE of the bunker and NOT ONE of them responded to my calls for help to burn it to the ground and progress the game. Finally 3 Alliance got into the bunker and easily took it back, despite the 15 Horde standing just outside the bunker...mindlessly killing and dieing.
Why?
Because no harm no foul for dieing....
The common theme among all of these scenarios is that people don't PvP with purpose other than smashing a few faces in until they get the scrap honor / XP for lossing the match. They queue up for the next Battleground and repeat the same mindless process.....and complain that it takes too long to get the rewards.
I'm not saying that you need to loose XP or inventory items for dieing........but some kind of stick to rap someone on the knuckles for playing STUPID would go along way to increase the overall enjoyment of the experience for everyone.
PvP in Wow is an afterthought, especially the battle grounds. At least they removed the twinks from the lower level ones because the average gamer would not have a chance otherwise.
The problem with pvp in Wow is that death is such a non event. You cannot have good pvp where death does not impose decent penalties.
It doesn't sound like you've played the game at all. Just compile everything you've heard and carry on the hate.
What he said is true.
Queue for any Battleground you like and just look at all the TERRIBLE play on display.
You know why people continue to do the same FAIL things in BGs, even after they have been in existance for over 3 years? Because not only are people not punished for death....they are rewarded for failure.
If its easier to play "If its RED, its DEAD" in some random field and get scrap honor / xp for losing than it is to work together as a team and coordinate attacks and tactics for maximum honor / xp......people are going to take the easy route so long as it eventually yields rewards.
It's the reason there are so many people are AFKing through Battlegrounds. It's the reason so many people who have no interest in PvP are taking up raid spots in BG PUGs. It's the reason that people who genuinely enjoy PvPing for the sake of being able to fight something smarter than the crap monster Artificial Intelligence have quit playing out of pure fustration.
I'm not saying that you have to lose XP or items upon death to make it meaningful. Something small as taking away tokens & Honor from Honor Kills for the loosing BG team would go a long way. I think you would find more people will be working the objectives in a team objective based PvP senario more if the Honor gained from COMPLETING the objectives was the only gaurenteed honor in a BG.
I gave wow a try late last year and recently closed down my accounts. The game really is not challenging in and of itself. The only way it becomes challenging is if you limit yourself in some way. The bg's were great when I first started playing them but as I found out, a group of people that know what they're doing have no challenges there. Same with pve. The only thing I found challenging in pve or in pvp was running with a pug. More times than not the challenge was trying to overcome another player's stupidity. For the life of me I never could figure out how someone made to 60+ and still had no idea how many of their class's mechanics worked or how to fulfill their role in a group. Pre-mades that knew what they're doing know their roles, know when to kill and when to stop. Doing those simple things allowed me to go from 40-80 with maybe a hand full of deaths. It was when I ran with a pug that our holy specced priest would dump all his mana using shadow magic, (after having queued as healing), then scream at our pally for not healing. The same things happened in bgs. That guy just standing there healing the guy that everyone around you is attacking with no effect? How can he not be your primary target? Because stupidity prevails.
Comments
Aren't video games in general a giant carrot on a stick? Trying to treat an MMORPG like WoW as a big waste of time is a bit ironic because that's the whole point of video games to begin with. Rather than sit at home and be bored, you could play video games like WoW or <insert favorite MMO here> to help you pass the time. If these aren't entertaining someone enough, they either need to find something/somewhere else to have fun or they can just sit there be at a complete loss while everyone else enjoys their respective game/genre. In the end, we're all trying to chase a big carrot on a stick and many people seem to be enjoying every bit of it.
PvP in Wow is an afterthought, especially the battle grounds. At least they removed the twinks from the lower level ones because the average gamer would not have a chance otherwise.
The problem with pvp in Wow is that death is such a non event. You cannot have good pvp where death does not impose decent penalties.
what i dont get is if they want to be eilte at lvl 19 ,29,39,49,59,69,79 bracket ,why they dont ALL lock lovel and leave the regular bg to the regular people?
The twink queues are atrociously long. You can queue all night long and not get in a game in some brackets.
They did the same thing to premade teams awhile back. They made it so that if you join the BG as a team (in a multiplayer game?!) then you basically didn't get to play because the queues could be over two hours long.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
It doesn't sound like you've played the game at all. Just compile everything you've heard and carry on the hate.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Finally someone who sounds like they've actually played some wg recently.
Another big issue that ruins these low level bg's is the fact that EVERYONE is in those freakin' heirlooms. But don't stop there, if you have heirlooms that means you have an 80 with gold. What does that mean? Crusader, 15 agi, stam up the butt.. at least mongoose was moved out of that gear's range. I rolled up on a new server for a dungeon group with my friends, and there's no way I'm shelling out $25 to move my main over so that means I'm left to the mercy of these no skill semi-twinks.
Instead of having three or four invincible super-people per bg, now it's an army of almost-invincible clickers
What a bunch of nonsense. Adding more penalties for dying does not make a game more challenging. After all the combat and enemies you fight will remain exactly the same, regardless death penalty.
Adding a death penalty only increases the timesink of having to regain lost experience or items or haviing to play through the same content again they already beat. Thats not challenging, thats just increasing the timesink.
Also, your description of WoW is very inaccurate. There are instances but WoW has much more to offer than just instances.
Adding more penalties for dying creates consequences for DUMB play.
All I have to say is this....
Arathi Basin
I was perched at Lumbermill in an Arathi Basin, directing traffic, and saw the same guy run SOLO into a group of 4+ at Blacksmith.......only to burned down in an instant. Same guy rezes up and runs RIGHT BACK to the same group at Blacksmith and dies AGAIN.
Instead of this guy helping out another group that might have been slightly outnumbered or outgunned.....he's off doing his own thing, engaging in combat where it doesn't matter or engaging in combat where they have ZERO impact on the match as a whole.
It happens time and time again....
Warsong Gultch
I got thrown into a WSG match that was already in progress and the Horde team had wiped the majority of our raid. As everyone rezed at the Graveyard, they ran off the cliff into a waiting group of Horde in a single file fashion....getting picked off one by one. NO ONE had the presence of mind to maybe GO AROUND the group of baddies as a collective group.
Why?
Because no harm no foul for dieing.
Arathi Valley
I capped Ice Wing Bunker by myself and called for support. There were atleast 15 fellow Horde players fighting RIGHT OUTSIDE of the bunker and NOT ONE of them responded to my calls for help to burn it to the ground and progress the game. Finally 3 Alliance got into the bunker and easily took it back, despite the 15 Horde standing just outside the bunker...mindlessly killing and dieing.
Why?
Because no harm no foul for dieing....
The common theme among all of these scenarios is that people don't PvP with purpose other than smashing a few faces in until they get the scrap honor / XP for lossing the match. They queue up for the next Battleground and repeat the same mindless process.....and complain that it takes too long to get the rewards.
I'm not saying that you need to loose XP or inventory items for dieing........but some kind of stick to rap someone on the knuckles for playing STUPID would go along way to increase the overall enjoyment of the experience for everyone.
It doesn't sound like you've played the game at all. Just compile everything you've heard and carry on the hate.
What he said is true.
Queue for any Battleground you like and just look at all the TERRIBLE play on display.
You know why people continue to do the same FAIL things in BGs, even after they have been in existance for over 3 years? Because not only are people not punished for death....they are rewarded for failure.
If its easier to play "If its RED, its DEAD" in some random field and get scrap honor / xp for losing than it is to work together as a team and coordinate attacks and tactics for maximum honor / xp......people are going to take the easy route so long as it eventually yields rewards.
It's the reason there are so many people are AFKing through Battlegrounds. It's the reason so many people who have no interest in PvP are taking up raid spots in BG PUGs. It's the reason that people who genuinely enjoy PvPing for the sake of being able to fight something smarter than the crap monster Artificial Intelligence have quit playing out of pure fustration.
I'm not saying that you have to lose XP or items upon death to make it meaningful. Something small as taking away tokens & Honor from Honor Kills for the loosing BG team would go a long way. I think you would find more people will be working the objectives in a team objective based PvP senario more if the Honor gained from COMPLETING the objectives was the only gaurenteed honor in a BG.
I gave wow a try late last year and recently closed down my accounts. The game really is not challenging in and of itself. The only way it becomes challenging is if you limit yourself in some way. The bg's were great when I first started playing them but as I found out, a group of people that know what they're doing have no challenges there. Same with pve. The only thing I found challenging in pve or in pvp was running with a pug. More times than not the challenge was trying to overcome another player's stupidity. For the life of me I never could figure out how someone made to 60+ and still had no idea how many of their class's mechanics worked or how to fulfill their role in a group. Pre-mades that knew what they're doing know their roles, know when to kill and when to stop. Doing those simple things allowed me to go from 40-80 with maybe a hand full of deaths. It was when I ran with a pug that our holy specced priest would dump all his mana using shadow magic, (after having queued as healing), then scream at our pally for not healing. The same things happened in bgs. That guy just standing there healing the guy that everyone around you is attacking with no effect? How can he not be your primary target? Because stupidity prevails.