Why I hated DF but like MO

rageagainst · February 2010

I don't know I used to froth with hatred like most of yall are right now when I played the beta of DF, but am actually very pleased with MO. Sure when I first logged into MO I was left utterly frustrated and appalled at the half implemented features, but I gave it time and it grew on me unlike DF which just got more and more dissapointing.

I think I know why, its because even though MO is anemic of features and those features are not fully implemented, they were added to the game intelligently. You could tell from day 1 in DF that it would take years for combat and specialization to get to the picture we had in our head (and it will get there, but it IS going to take YEARS, check out the stuff DF is planning for 2010); we didn't even know it was possible to ever have an interesting economy with no player vendors and global banking...

ATM in MO combat is atleast 10x more in depth than DF's, and there's forced specialization, with a fast grind to max your skills but the ability to change your specializations fluidly, and there are TONS of skills to specialize in. Everything is crafted by the players, and there is local banking. Sure everything is INCREDIBLY BUGGY AND UNPOLISHED, but that's all they need to do to make the previous true, fix the bugs and polish, unlike DF which has to slowly and meticulously reinvent its features with major add ons.

Miles-Prower · February 2010

Originally posted by rageagainst

I don't know I used to froth with hatred like most of yall are right now when I played the beta of DF, but am actually very pleased with MO. Sure when I first logged into MO I was left utterly frustrated and appalled at the half implemented features, but I gave it time and it grew on me unlike DF which just got more and more dissapointing.
I think I know why, its because even though MO is anemic of features and those features are not fully implemented, they were added to the game intelligently. You could tell from day 1 in DF that it would take years for combat and specialization to get to the picture we had in our head (and it will get there, but its going to take YEARS); we didn't even know it was possible to ever have an interesting economy with no player vendors and global banking...
ATM in MO combat is atleast 10x more in depth than DF's, and there's forced specialization, with a fast grind to max your skills but the ability to change your specializations fluidly, and there are TONS of skills to specialize in. Everything is crafted by the players, and there is local banking. Sure everything is INCREDIBLY BUGGY AND UNPOLISHED, but that's all they need to do to make the previous true, fix the bugs and polish, unlike DF which has to slowly and meticulously reinvent its features with major add ons.

If Darkfall or Mortal Online let me customize my character a lot more; As in, deep Cryptic Style customization, I could see myself playing them.

Right now; however, Each time I log into my Darkfall character I just feel sick to my stomach because my character just looks so ugly.

Yeah, laugh it up. But if I'm going to be killed by people and monsters, I at least want to look good while I do it!

~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!

rageagainst · February 2010

Originally posted by Miles-Prower

Originally posted by rageagainst

I don't know I used to froth with hatred like most of yall are right now when I played the beta of DF, but am actually very pleased with MO. Sure when I first logged into MO I was left utterly frustrated and appalled at the half implemented features, but I gave it time and it grew on me unlike DF which just got more and more dissapointing.
I think I know why, its because even though MO is anemic of features and those features are not fully implemented, they were added to the game intelligently. You could tell from day 1 in DF that it would take years for combat and specialization to get to the picture we had in our head (and it will get there, but its going to take YEARS); we didn't even know it was possible to ever have an interesting economy with no player vendors and global banking...
ATM in MO combat is atleast 10x more in depth than DF's, and there's forced specialization, with a fast grind to max your skills but the ability to change your specializations fluidly, and there are TONS of skills to specialize in. Everything is crafted by the players, and there is local banking. Sure everything is INCREDIBLY BUGGY AND UNPOLISHED, but that's all they need to do to make the previous true, fix the bugs and polish, unlike DF which has to slowly and meticulously reinvent its features with major add ons.

If Darkfall or Mortal Online let me customize my character a lot more; As in, deep Cryptic Style customization, I could see myself playing them.

Right now; however, Each time I log into my Darkfall character I just feel sick to my stomach because my character just looks so ugly.

Yeah, laugh it up. But if I'm going to be killed by people and monsters, I at least want to look good while I do it!

~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!

Well in DF's defence they are redoing the models this year, and they actually look cool, and not disgusting like the current ones

zazz · February 2010

I got your back bud but not sure how long i can hold the incmooing forum crazies inbound back.

Your a brave brave man.

austin11r · February 2010

How much faster is the grind in MO then in DF?

taramir · February 2010

Posts like this are stupid. You like MO, as unfinished, unpolished and buggy as it is over DF which you cant really deny as being pretty polished and not buggy as it is now. How do you figure the combat in MO is 10x more in depth than DF? Was there some sort of scientific equation that went into that statement? I preorded MO months ago and have regretted it for months. Ive also quit DF out of boredom but geez, your post basically said "They need to fix all the essential stuff that makes a game worth a shit and it will be good".

Miles-Prower · February 2010

Originally posted by rageagainst

Originally posted by Miles-Prower

Originally posted by rageagainst

I don't know I used to froth with hatred like most of yall are right now when I played the beta of DF, but am actually very pleased with MO. Sure when I first logged into MO I was left utterly frustrated and appalled at the half implemented features, but I gave it time and it grew on me unlike DF which just got more and more dissapointing.
I think I know why, its because even though MO is anemic of features and those features are not fully implemented, they were added to the game intelligently. You could tell from day 1 in DF that it would take years for combat and specialization to get to the picture we had in our head (and it will get there, but its going to take YEARS); we didn't even know it was possible to ever have an interesting economy with no player vendors and global banking...
ATM in MO combat is atleast 10x more in depth than DF's, and there's forced specialization, with a fast grind to max your skills but the ability to change your specializations fluidly, and there are TONS of skills to specialize in. Everything is crafted by the players, and there is local banking. Sure everything is INCREDIBLY BUGGY AND UNPOLISHED, but that's all they need to do to make the previous true, fix the bugs and polish, unlike DF which has to slowly and meticulously reinvent its features with major add ons.

If Darkfall or Mortal Online let me customize my character a lot more; As in, deep Cryptic Style customization, I could see myself playing them.

Right now; however, Each time I log into my Darkfall character I just feel sick to my stomach because my character just looks so ugly.

Yeah, laugh it up. But if I'm going to be killed by people and monsters, I at least want to look good while I do it!

~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!

Well in DF's defence they are redoing the models this year, and they actually look cool, and not disgusting like the current ones

Can I finally do my character's makeup? No joke. I spent more time doing my character's makeup in Champions Online and Aion than I did on the starting zones. I'm huge on that! Also, some better hairstyles couldn't hurt. The hair is terrible. Give us 3.0/4.0 shader hair at least. Yeesh!

~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!

rageagainst · February 2010

Originally posted by austin11r

How much faster is the grind in MO then in DF?

The problem w/ DF is that there is no cap, not necessarily the grind (though at the beginning it was like an epic korean mmo). They are trying to curb this this year by making people choose skills that will gimp other skills, or completely not let you use other skills, and are speeding up the grind. We'll see how it works out, the grind is much faster than how it started though.

In MO there's a 1000 skill point cap (or soft cap, not sure). I maxed theivery in one day of grind (though its good to note I didn't do it like I was supposed to and made a stealing circle, but still the longest I heard it take anyone to max theivery is 2 weeks, and he did it the hard way)

rageagainst · February 2010

Originally posted by taramir

Posts like this are stupid. You like MO, as unfinished, unpolished and buggy as it is over DF which you cant really deny as being pretty polished and not buggy as it is now. How do you figure the combat in MO is 10x more in depth than DF? Was there some sort of scientific equation that went into that statement? I preorded MO months ago and have regretted it for months. Ive also quit DF out of boredom but geez, your post basically said "They need to fix all the essential stuff that makes a game worth a shit and it will be good".

Polish =/= a good game

I admitted that MO is completely buggy, but you can see behind it to an awesome game that's already there. At the beginning of DF, if you looked past the bugs, you would see the POTENTIAL for an awesome game. I mean you've seen AV add in tons and tons of features, but it still doesn't feel as sandboxy as it should (partly because the features being added follow the same mistakes the launch features did. Trade routes? Yeah because there's no reason to have trade routes in the game, instead of revamping the economy, you add npc trade routes... brilliant!)

If you subtract the bugs from MO's features, what you see a strong and well thought out foundation for a true sandbox game, not Shadowbane (minus specialization and customizing your castle) with fps combat.

I don't know, but DF IS a good game, and is polished to be good at what it is. Its just not the game promised which was a player skill driven sandbox mmo. There's tons of polish on DF. But yeah I was watching that game for a while, and at launch they just randomly slammed on their features and tried to put some semblance of polish, and they are now in the process of morphing the game into a fully fledged sandbox, wheras there's MO which is coming to the table with its sandbox nature very much in mind. That's the point of the OP I guess, DF came around to take the place of SB and then UO while MO is coming around to take the place of UO and then SB.

Slapshot1188 · February 2010

Originally posted by rageagainst

Polish =/= a good game
I admitted that MO is completely buggy, but you can see behind it to an awesome game that's already there. At the beginning of DF, if you looked past the bugs, you would see the POTENTIAL for an awesome game. I mean you've seen AV add in tons and tons of features, but it still doesn't feel as sandboxy as it should (partly because the features being added follow the same mistakes the launch features did. Trade routes? Yeah because there's no reason to have trade routes in the game, instead of revamping the economy, you add npc trade routes... brilliant!)
If you subtract the bugs from MO's features, what you see a strong and well thought out foundation for a true sandbox game, not Shadowbane (minus specialization and customizing your castle) with fps combat.
I don't know, but DF IS a good game, and is polished to be good at what it is. Its just not the game promised which was a player skill driven sandbox mmo. There's tons of polish on DF. But yeah I was watching that game for a while, and at launch they just randomly slammed on their features and tried to put some semblance of polish, and they are now in the process of morphing the game into a fully fledged sandbox, wheras there's MO which is coming to the table with its sandbox nature very much in mind. That's the point of the OP I guess, DF came around to take the place of SB and then UO while MO is coming around to take the place of UO and then SB.

Sorry but I think polish is misused by most people on here. Polish is what you do when something is finished to make it "refined or elegant". Mortal's features do not need polish.. they need to be FINISHED... FEATURE COMPLETE... Then you can talk about polish to make it nice and shiny. games that are revamping skills systems, combat systems, crafting systems, guild systems, housing systems and magic systems (pretty much the entire game) are not in the "polish' stage they are in the game design phase...

BarCrow · February 2010

Originally posted by Miles-Prower

Originally posted by rageagainst

I don't know I used to froth with hatred like most of yall are right now when I played the beta of DF, but am actually very pleased with MO. Sure when I first logged into MO I was left utterly frustrated and appalled at the half implemented features, but I gave it time and it grew on me unlike DF which just got more and more dissapointing.
I think I know why, its because even though MO is anemic of features and those features are not fully implemented, they were added to the game intelligently. You could tell from day 1 in DF that it would take years for combat and specialization to get to the picture we had in our head (and it will get there, but its going to take YEARS); we didn't even know it was possible to ever have an interesting economy with no player vendors and global banking...
ATM in MO combat is atleast 10x more in depth than DF's, and there's forced specialization, with a fast grind to max your skills but the ability to change your specializations fluidly, and there are TONS of skills to specialize in. Everything is crafted by the players, and there is local banking. Sure everything is INCREDIBLY BUGGY AND UNPOLISHED, but that's all they need to do to make the previous true, fix the bugs and polish, unlike DF which has to slowly and meticulously reinvent its features with major add ons.

If Darkfall or Mortal Online let me customize my character a lot more; As in, deep Cryptic Style customization, I could see myself playing them.

Right now; however, Each time I log into my Darkfall character I just feel sick to my stomach because my character just looks so ugly.

Yeah, laugh it up. But if I'm going to be killed by people and monsters, I at least want to look good while I do it!

~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!

I agree...only I don't care if I look good. I just don't want to look like the person killing me.

rageagainst · February 2010

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Originally posted by rageagainst

Polish =/= a good game
I admitted that MO is completely buggy, but you can see behind it to an awesome game that's already there. At the beginning of DF, if you looked past the bugs, you would see the POTENTIAL for an awesome game. I mean you've seen AV add in tons and tons of features, but it still doesn't feel as sandboxy as it should (partly because the features being added follow the same mistakes the launch features did. Trade routes? Yeah because there's no reason to have trade routes in the game, instead of revamping the economy, you add npc trade routes... brilliant!)
If you subtract the bugs from MO's features, what you see a strong and well thought out foundation for a true sandbox game, not Shadowbane (minus specialization and customizing your castle) with fps combat.
I don't know, but DF IS a good game, and is polished to be good at what it is. Its just not the game promised which was a player skill driven sandbox mmo. There's tons of polish on DF. But yeah I was watching that game for a while, and at launch they just randomly slammed on their features and tried to put some semblance of polish, and they are now in the process of morphing the game into a fully fledged sandbox, wheras there's MO which is coming to the table with its sandbox nature very much in mind. That's the point of the OP I guess, DF came around to take the place of SB and then UO while MO is coming around to take the place of UO and then SB.

Sorry but I think polish is misused by most people on here. Polish is what you do when something is finished to make it "refined or elegant". Mortal's features do not need polish.. they need to be FINISHED... FEATURE COMPLETE... Then you can talk about polish to make it nice and shiny. games that are revamping skills systems, combat systems, crafting systems, guild systems, housing systems and magic systems (pretty much the entire game) are not in the "polish' stage they are in the game design phase...

Yeah, I think I'm able to see this game positively b/c of the horror stories I heard from early beta. You're right, atm this game looks like an alpha, but I see it with the understanding that the devs simply lack the money to make it look any better at its current stage. I think its because they communicate with us in the forum and even state that their game isn't near perfect and the reasons for it (and what will and won't be in for launch), unlike AV which boasted its game would be more feature complete than games already out there.

But they are constantly adding new features every patch so its yet to be seen how much will be there at launch, I expect just as much as they told us would be in launch, which is the foundation of the game but nothing to boast about. If they launched the game TODAY, it would be very feature incomplete for even SV's standards and VERY buggy, but there would be players that were soley blacksmiths, theives, archers, mages, miners, pk'ers, anti-pker's (because the flagging system actually makes sense in this game), and hybrids of them. There would be people saving up to build houses for themselves, and groups of players saving up to build keeps. LMB spam in combat would be impossible, even for noobs. And last but not least, there would be an economy run soley by the players. Do you remember what the environment of the game when DF released. Do you know the environment it is in now?

If you look at the features that DF is trying to aim to obtain in 2010 and beyond, MO already has a lot of it. Sure DF is a lot more stable, polished, and featured but its just a different type of game all together from MO atm.

Annwyn · February 2010

Originally posted by rageagainst

I don't know I used to froth with hatred like most of yall are right now when I played the beta of DF, but am actually very pleased with MO. Sure when I first logged into MO I was left utterly frustrated and appalled at the half implemented features, but I gave it time and it grew on me unlike DF which just got more and more dissapointing.
I think I know why, its because even though MO is anemic of features and those features are not fully implemented, they were added to the game intelligently. You could tell from day 1 in DF that it would take years for combat and specialization to get to the picture we had in our head (and it will get there, but it IS going to take YEARS, check out the stuff DF is planning for 2010); we didn't even know it was possible to ever have an interesting economy with no player vendors and global banking...
ATM in MO combat is atleast 10x more in depth than DF's, and there's forced specialization, with a fast grind to max your skills but the ability to change your specializations fluidly, and there are TONS of skills to specialize in. Everything is crafted by the players, and there is local banking. Sure everything is INCREDIBLY BUGGY AND UNPOLISHED, but that's all they need to do to make the previous true, fix the bugs and polish, unlike DF which has to slowly and meticulously reinvent its features with major add ons.

I think you are slightly misinformed and are comparing DarkFall at launch rather than the current DarkFall with Mortal Online Open Beta (as you claim that you are comparing Mortal Online Beta with the current DarkFall, which is a foulish idea)

First Magic Specialization was added in June, Melee and Archery specialization was added in December. DarkFall still has Global Banking (except for Villages that now have Local Banking as of December) and Player Vendors were also added in December. Players barely use player vendor as the Trade Chat is a lot more efficient though.

DarkFall's grind was fixed in June. DarkFall doesn't force you to specialize but it's viable. You can also change your specialization as much as you want though you must pay the price of the specialization you will use as a replacement, you can also simply remove the specialization at no cost.

A good 90% of the items are crafted by the players too.

As for DarkFall re-inventing it's features with every expansions, you should know that these additions are, for the most part, based on player's feedback.

---

Now, as you mentionned, Mortal Online is INCREDIBLY BUGGY AND UNPOLISHED and do not discard it as if "it's nothing major which can be fixed easily". StarVault will have to work their asses of and fix their game otherwise it will flop. And while I believe Mortal Online has an awesome crafting system (and possibly one of the best that I have seen), currently I believe it's the only point where Mortal Online is actually superior to DarkFall (In my opinion).

Also note that I do not wish for Mortal Online to fail. I would love Mortal Online to be a success even though it's not my type of FFA PvP Game.But I simply had to clear a few false facts in OP's post.

movindude · March 2010

http://mortalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page Great site for those looking forward to this game. I know I am.

HanoverZ · March 2010

Originally posted by movindude

http://mortalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page Great site for those looking forward to this game. I know I am.

What has changed in 4 days? How do you do a 180 when nothing has changed????

"I am so deserate to find a good game and wanted this to work with all it's promises that I wish I could have given it a 10 but its still beta........course I have played beta's that were polished and this is just a mess. If they come out without some huge fix they should change the name to Mortal Offline."www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3412813#3412813

Diekfoo · March 2010

Originally posted by movindude

http://mortalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page Great site for those looking forward to this game. I know I am.

Thanks for the link. I will check it out later.

Neoptolemus · March 2010

Originally posted by rageagainst
Polish =/= a good game
I admitted that MO is completely buggy, but you can see behind it to an awesome game that's already there. At the beginning of DF, if you looked past the bugs, you would see the POTENTIAL for an awesome game.

I'd disagree here. Potential in and of itself is useless to you and I unless that potential is reached. I'm not paying a monthly fee to play a game that is good in theory, but in reality garbage. Whether or not that potential is reached depends on the competency of the development team, which is reflected in the quality of their work.

SV right now inspire no confidence in me whatsoever with their slapdash, shoddy approach to building up their game, and therefore I am more likely to believe that this game will never realise its potential until they learn to focus on properly developing each feature individually instead of throwing a random spread of broken placeholders. I'd rather have a patch introduce one fully functional, fleshed-out feature like a day/night cycle than a dozen half-done features that don't even work half the time.

Azdul · March 2010

Originally posted by rageagainst

The problem w/ DF is that there is no cap, not necessarily the grind (though at the beginning it was like an epic korean mmo). They are trying to curb this this year by making people choose skills that will gimp other skills, or completely not let you use other skills, and are speeding up the grind. We'll see how it works out, the grind is much faster than how it started though.
In MO there's a 1000 skill point cap (or soft cap, not sure). I maxed theivery in one day of grind (though its good to note I didn't do it like I was supposed to and made a stealing circle, but still the longest I heard it take anyone to max theivery is 2 weeks, and he did it the hard way)

If you wonder why there is a grind in MMO - it's because there isn't enough content. DF could have 100x faster skill gains - but you would run out of things to do in a month. They speed up magic grind 6x in September'09 - because there was enough content incoming to keep people interested for few months more.

It was the same in case of WoW - leveling up from 1 to 60 was speed up as soon as they've introduced more content above lvl 60. Even now after level 80 WoW becomes grindy.

No grind approach of Mortal Online can be good or can be bad. It's fun to max your character in 1 week - but there need to be content to keep you playing after that. "Sandbox" is not enough - if they expect players to create interesting situations and new challenges - they need to give them tools to do that.

IAmMMO · March 2010

Originally posted by rageagainst

I don't know I used to froth with hatred like most of yall are right now when I played the beta of DF, but am actually very pleased with MO. Sure when I first logged into MO I was left utterly frustrated and appalled at the half implemented features, but I gave it time and it grew on me unlike DF which just got more and more dissapointing.
I think I know why, its because even though MO is anemic of features and those features are not fully implemented, they were added to the game intelligently. You could tell from day 1 in DF that it would take years for combat and specialization to get to the picture we had in our head (and it will get there, but it IS going to take YEARS, check out the stuff DF is planning for 2010); we didn't even know it was possible to ever have an interesting economy with no player vendors and global banking...
ATM in MO combat is atleast 10x more in depth than DF's, and there's forced specialization, with a fast grind to max your skills but the ability to change your specializations fluidly, and there are TONS of skills to specialize in. Everything is crafted by the players, and there is local banking. Sure everything is INCREDIBLY BUGGY AND UNPOLISHED, but that's all they need to do to make the previous true, fix the bugs and polish, unlike DF which has to slowly and meticulously reinvent its features with major add ons.

I'm the opposite, I like Darkfall and hate MO. To me MO is just a dry dull auto generated world, with only few areas like a town done with some idea of a design. I don't like those photo realism textures in MO, they just bland the world out for me.

IMHO DF engine beats the Unreal engine for large scale seamless world and large scale battles hands down, no way will MO ever do the scale of battles you see in DF, MO engine just not up to it.DF engine been built from the group up for this and it show in how well it runs large battles. DF got the edge, the fleshing out is coming to match MO features.Also to call DF combat shallow is to show you never got that far in to it. full of tactic skill, and good refllexes, it not just spam the button, you have different attacks to get off from the best position on your enemy etc,

DF can already do a lot more than MO can, MO dev team still dreaming about getting more than 80 people in one area without lag. In 5 years time DF will stand will above MO, just wait on see, I may be wrong, but this is my prediction as a long time Pc exclusive gamer.

Hedeon · March 2010

I really dont get how you can say this one game is better than DF pure cause of the skill system. which is the only thing in the game that sorta works.

SV already now is close to have to release this game, so Ive stopped really follow it, they have been very fair in telling of the state of their game, but Im not going to sit wait for a game I know wont be done the next couple of years.

love the idea of mortal online on the text that they aim for realizing,....they just are very far away and they try accomplish it with a very small team. worse of all there is just about no PvE so you cant go anywhere without YOUR OWN RACE killing you.

they need to add and fix alot of features and Im not going to pay for a game development or I d have bought a part of the company if I wanted to....which I wouldnt either since lost faith in SV get anywhere close to a proper product before release.

either way have fun, hope Im wrong for your sake ;

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