I couldn't disagree more strongly. Game developers and publishing companies are out to make money. This goes for Indie studies as well as massive ones like Blizzard. If we really want GOOD sandbox games we should NOT support the shovelware/fix it later mentality. We should NOT be helping to lower the (already ridiculously low) bar for released products. THAT my friend is the surest way to guarantee failure for the sandbox genre. Instead we need to demand a complete and functional game.. so that when the non-hardcore crowd goes and tries it, they are amazed and fall in love with the game. As it stands, as proven by the massive poll on these forums, the OVERWHELMING majority of people exposed to Mortal have a horrendous impression of the game. How exactly does that HELP those of us that really want sandboxes to thrive? It doesn't help at all and just turns off a chunk of the gaming base to the entire genre... possibly forever.
Fully agree.
SV are a new team with little previous experience, and yes if the problem here was just a few rough edges in terms of graphics and sound I'd happily cut them slack.
The problem though is that they're rushing to put out their content instead of spending time focusing their efforts where they're needed most, and polishing up the content before handing it to us for wider testing. For that, there is no excuse whatsoever, it's poor direction at its worst and being a small indie team is not an excuse for poor development ethos.
Stuff is just thrown in half-done all over the place with little to no apparent control. A cave system is added with just one mob that's stuck in the ceiling, important core mechanics are thrown in without even the most rudimentary checks for bugs and exploits. Take some pride in your work!
Oh, and it was referred to as the "miracle patch" because MO badly needs one in order to become even close to retail standard. Unfortunately, due to SV's previous track record with patches, it's unlikely there ever will be one.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. Game developers and publishing companies are out to make money. This goes for Indie studies as well as massive ones like Blizzard. If we really want GOOD sandbox games we should NOT support the shovelware/fix it later mentality. We should NOT be helping to lower the (already ridiculously low) bar for released products. THAT my friend is the surest way to guarantee failure for the sandbox genre. Instead we need to demand a complete and functional game.. so that when the non-hardcore crowd goes and tries it, they are amazed and fall in love with the game. As it stands, as proven by the massive poll on these forums, the OVERWHELMING majority of people exposed to Mortal have a horrendous impression of the game. How exactly does that HELP those of us that really want sandboxes to thrive? It doesn't help at all and just turns off a chunk of the gaming base to the entire genre... possibly forever.
My dear friend, don't you understand that a game what is aimed for niche market shouldn't usually go to open beta phase, do you know why? Because of the word niche... Most likely, majority of people here and around the world ain't used to games like this, they do not understand the mechanics or anything how the game works and functions. They see the word 'sandbox', "mkay, I do what I want" indeed, they should, and they do. But when they do 'that' they don't get the bigger picture of the game as they haven't played it well enough, it's the same as judging world of warcrafts pve with lvl 7 first time character. People go around and swing their starteraxe, use their 13 str and then come to the conclusion "Combat seems to suck balls". They haven't been there since block A and tested the best weapons in the game (The old crafting system made the best quality weapons) and noticed how fast the combat is and how much it has actuall y been changed. Also, they do not understand why does it lag in an open beta, well, it's a huge stresstest to be honest, to avoid the problems, for example DFO, AoC had in start. I've been following people around the intardnetz to see what they think about MO, and the first time experience is rough, but when you actually explain how the game works, go and play with the new people and start doing actual things what they should have done from the start, they get completely different view from the game. It's not such simple task to say "Okay, we must hate the game as it's not regular mainstream game we are used to, instead it's developed by 20man for 4 years, we should never ever give that group a change to develop any further becaue they didn't make a quality product from the start" That should never, ever be the case. Also, people should read the dev plans before doing anything. I think, that every player out here, should be an idealist, they should be very open minded (which most people definitely ain't) and figure out how things are.
My dear friend, don't you understand that a game what is aimed for niche market shouldn't usually go to open beta phase, do you know why? Because of the word niche... Most likely, majority of people here and around the world ain't used to games like this, they do not understand the mechanics or anything how the game works and functions. They see the word 'sandbox', "mkay, I do what I want" indeed, they should, and they do. But when they do 'that' they don't get the bigger picture of the game as they haven't played it well enough, it's the same as judging world of warcrafts pve with lvl 7 first time character. People go around and swing their starteraxe, use their 13 str and then come to the conclusion "Combat seems to suck balls". They haven't been there since block A and tested the best weapons in the game (The old crafting system made the best quality weapons) and noticed how fast the combat is and how much it has actuall y been changed. Also, they do not understand why does it lag in an open beta, well, it's a huge stresstest to be honest, to avoid the problems, for example DFO, AoC had in start. I've been following people around the intardnetz to see what they think about MO, and the first time experience is rough, but when you actually explain how the game works, go and play with the new people and start doing actual things what they should have done from the start, they get completely different view from the game. It's not such simple task to say "Okay, we must hate the game as it's not regular mainstream game we are used to, instead it's developed by 20man for 4 years, we should never ever give that group a change to develop any further becaue they didn't make a quality product from the start" That should never, ever be the case. Also, people should read the dev plans before doing anything. I think, that every player out here, should be an idealist, they should be very open minded (which most people definitely ain't) and figure out how things are.
*EVERY* game should go into some sort of open beta at some point. Whether open beta is a free for all like MO (not necessarily a good idea) or open beta is done by a certain number of users (ie, Darkfall) is obviously a difference.
Open beta isn't about figuring out combat sucks -- even though it does, and I've used the better weapons too -- it's about figuring out server load, cost per user, metrics for growth, and the actual stability of the servers.
As for the 'figuring out the game' for new players well... SV should have thought of that before. If you have a game that has a high learning curve you need to either be unique and amazing (MO isn't, EVE is) when you launch, or you need to handhold players so they get used to it. Oh yea, and they need some actual DIRECTION in the game. It's not about going in and just using your imagination, you use the content that's in the game to create your own adventure. Unfortunately, there's basically no content, and even the AI makes you laugh so you can't get a decent roleplay going.
In the end, the game will stand on its own merits. I've seen the MO forums go ballistic on new players saying "we don't need you anyway", and soon they will see that after the population falls off, the game is still in shambles, they will be the first ones to come around and say "the game is really good now, honest, come back!".
Hercules: why did you use "open beta" phrase instead of "free trial", because it's obvious that you have no idea what "beta" means, and misinterprets it with "stress test".
If you say so.
I guess that's why Henrik messaged me about what servers to buy and talked with me about how overworked he was and all that, because I have no idea what I'm talking about. Not because I do this stuff for a living, or anything.
Hercules: why did you use "open beta" phrase instead of "free trial", because it's obvious that you have no idea what "beta" means, and misinterprets it with "stress test".
I'd argue the two are pretty much the same. An open beta is where everybody is invited to participate, thus getting the maximum number of people on the servers pre-release just like a stress-test. Because of this, by the time you open the doors for everyone to have a look, the game should be in the final stages of polish and tweaking so that your future customers can see what the final thing would look like. Once the floodgates open, there will be plenty of work necessary fixing server balance, load etc without having to also fix endless bugs and adding new content at the same time.
That said, given that the game isn't even feature-complete yet I'd argue this isn't technically a beta at all, at least as far as traditional game development milestones go. But then again it's just a term being thrown around so if SV want to call this an "open beta" then fine. If they were to even consider calling this a free trial then they'd probably need their heads examined.
Terminology aside, the key point here is they've cocked it all up. The wider audience doesn't want to sit there watching the stage being constructed and the actors rehearsing their lines, they want to see the show in its final form and right now it isn't looking so healthy. As far as publicity goes, SV messed this one up by revealing the ugly development side in all its glory to the people they're meant to be drawing in.
Hercules: why did you use "open beta" phrase instead of "free trial", because it's obvious that you have no idea what "beta" means, and misinterprets it with "stress test".
I'd argue the two are pretty much the same. An open beta is where everybody is invited to participate, thus getting the maximum number of people on the servers pre-release just like a stress-test. Because of this, by the time you open the doors for everyone to have a look, the game should be in the final stages of polish and tweaking so that your future customers can see what the final thing would look like. Once the floodgates open, there will be plenty of work necessary fixing server balance, load etc without having to also fix endless bugs and adding new content at the same time.
That said, given that the game isn't even feature-complete yet I'd argue this isn't technically a beta at all, at least as far as traditional game development milestones go. But then again it's just a term being thrown around so if SV want to call this an "open beta" then fine. If they were to even consider calling this a free trial then they'd probably need their heads examined.
Terminology aside, the key point here is they've cocked it all up. The wider audience doesn't want to sit there watching the stage being constructed and the actors rehearsing their lines, they want to see the show in its final form and right now it isn't looking so healthy. As far as publicity goes, SV messed this one up by revealing the ugly development side in all its glory to the people they're meant to be drawing in.
I had stated many, many months ago (almost a year, I think) that beta = feature complete.
If they are adding features in during their "open beta" then it's not a beta. It's an alpha. Unfortunately SV has conned everybody into thinking that Blizzard is the only company that goes by those rules, but if they actually took a computer science class, they'd know that *EVERYBODY* goes by those rules.
My dear friend, don't you understand that a game what is aimed for niche market shouldn't usually go to open beta phase, do you know why? Because of the word niche... Most likely, majority of people here and around the world ain't used to games like this, they do not understand the mechanics or anything how the game works and functions. They see the word 'sandbox', "mkay, I do what I want" indeed, they should, and they do. But when they do 'that' they don't get the bigger picture of the game as they haven't played it well enough, it's the same as judging world of warcrafts pve with lvl 7 first time character. People go around and swing their starteraxe, use their 13 str and then come to the conclusion "Combat seems to suck balls". They haven't been there since block A and tested the best weapons in the game (The old crafting system made the best quality weapons) and noticed how fast the combat is and how much it has actuall y been changed. Also, they do not understand why does it lag in an open beta, well, it's a huge stresstest to be honest, to avoid the problems, for example DFO, AoC had in start. I've been following people around the intardnetz to see what they think about MO, and the first time experience is rough, but when you actually explain how the game works, go and play with the new people and start doing actual things what they should have done from the start, they get completely different view from the game. It's not such simple task to say "Okay, we must hate the game as it's not regular mainstream game we are used to, instead it's developed by 20man for 4 years, we should never ever give that group a change to develop any further becaue they didn't make a quality product from the start" That should never, ever be the case. Also, people should read the dev plans before doing anything. I think, that every player out here, should be an idealist, they should be very open minded (which most people definitely ain't) and figure out how things are.
My friend.. niche market has nothing to do with selling a complete product. As I stated in my message above I strongly believe that allowing a company to lower the bar (even lower than our normal attrocious standards) is quite damaging to the sandbox genre. Already thousands of people have tried Mortal online through the Open Beta and this was their first experience with a game billed as a sandbox. Many of those people are lost to the sandbox genre forever because their impression is now that "sandbox" means incomplete game with nothing to do except harvest the same ore/timber, craft weapons and armor.. and kill each other (for no reason other than killing each other).
Instead of lowering our standards we need to raise them and demand that companies release feature complete games and not shovelware with the mentality that it can all get fixed at some later time after release.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I guess that's why Henrik messaged me about what servers to buy and talked with me about how overworked he was and all that, because I have no idea what I'm talking about. Not because I do this stuff for a living, or anything.
k, if you say so.
btw. what do have servers in common with "beta test" phrase ? Of course not physically.
edit: mmkay, trolling is the thing which connects everything my trolling explained it perfectly
-- /thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
Comments
Fully agree.
SV are a new team with little previous experience, and yes if the problem here was just a few rough edges in terms of graphics and sound I'd happily cut them slack.
The problem though is that they're rushing to put out their content instead of spending time focusing their efforts where they're needed most, and polishing up the content before handing it to us for wider testing. For that, there is no excuse whatsoever, it's poor direction at its worst and being a small indie team is not an excuse for poor development ethos.
Stuff is just thrown in half-done all over the place with little to no apparent control. A cave system is added with just one mob that's stuck in the ceiling, important core mechanics are thrown in without even the most rudimentary checks for bugs and exploits. Take some pride in your work!
Oh, and it was referred to as the "miracle patch" because MO badly needs one in order to become even close to retail standard. Unfortunately, due to SV's previous track record with patches, it's unlikely there ever will be one.
My dear friend, don't you understand that a game what is aimed for niche market shouldn't usually go to open beta phase, do you know why? Because of the word niche... Most likely, majority of people here and around the world ain't used to games like this, they do not understand the mechanics or anything how the game works and functions. They see the word 'sandbox', "mkay, I do what I want" indeed, they should, and they do. But when they do 'that' they don't get the bigger picture of the game as they haven't played it well enough, it's the same as judging world of warcrafts pve with lvl 7 first time character. People go around and swing their starter axe, use their 13 str and then come to the conclusion "Combat seems to suck balls". They haven't been there since block A and tested the best weapons in the game (The old crafting system made the best quality weapons) and noticed how fast the combat is and how much it has actuall y been changed. Also, they do not understand why does it lag in an open beta, well, it's a huge stresstest to be honest, to avoid the problems, for example DFO, AoC had in start. I've been following people around the intardnetz to see what they think about MO, and the first time experience is rough, but when you actually explain how the game works, go and play with the new people and start doing actual things what they should have done from the start, they get completely different view from the game. It's not such simple task to say "Okay, we must hate the game as it's not regular mainstream game we are used to, instead it's developed by 20man for 4 years, we should never ever give that group a change to develop any further becaue they didn't make a quality product from the start" That should never, ever be the case. Also, people should read the dev plans before doing anything. I think, that every player out here, should be an idealist, they should be very open minded (which most people definitely ain't) and figure out how things are.
You can burn me, but i wont die.
*EVERY* game should go into some sort of open beta at some point. Whether open beta is a free for all like MO (not necessarily a good idea) or open beta is done by a certain number of users (ie, Darkfall) is obviously a difference.
Open beta isn't about figuring out combat sucks -- even though it does, and I've used the better weapons too -- it's about figuring out server load, cost per user, metrics for growth, and the actual stability of the servers.
As for the 'figuring out the game' for new players well... SV should have thought of that before. If you have a game that has a high learning curve you need to either be unique and amazing (MO isn't, EVE is) when you launch, or you need to handhold players so they get used to it. Oh yea, and they need some actual DIRECTION in the game. It's not about going in and just using your imagination, you use the content that's in the game to create your own adventure. Unfortunately, there's basically no content, and even the AI makes you laugh so you can't get a decent roleplay going.
In the end, the game will stand on its own merits. I've seen the MO forums go ballistic on new players saying "we don't need you anyway", and soon they will see that after the population falls off, the game is still in shambles, they will be the first ones to come around and say "the game is really good now, honest, come back!".
Hercules, I know you, doesn't really matter at all what you say. This is personal.
You can burn me, but i wont die.
If you say so.
I guess that's why Henrik messaged me about what servers to buy and talked with me about how overworked he was and all that, because I have no idea what I'm talking about. Not because I do this stuff for a living, or anything.
I didn't know you hated me so much to feel it's personal. I guess when I rag on bad games that you like, I suppose you may feel it's warranted.
I'm just here for the entertainment factor right now.
I'd argue the two are pretty much the same. An open beta is where everybody is invited to participate, thus getting the maximum number of people on the servers pre-release just like a stress-test. Because of this, by the time you open the doors for everyone to have a look, the game should be in the final stages of polish and tweaking so that your future customers can see what the final thing would look like. Once the floodgates open, there will be plenty of work necessary fixing server balance, load etc without having to also fix endless bugs and adding new content at the same time.
That said, given that the game isn't even feature-complete yet I'd argue this isn't technically a beta at all, at least as far as traditional game development milestones go. But then again it's just a term being thrown around so if SV want to call this an "open beta" then fine. If they were to even consider calling this a free trial then they'd probably need their heads examined.
Terminology aside, the key point here is they've cocked it all up. The wider audience doesn't want to sit there watching the stage being constructed and the actors rehearsing their lines, they want to see the show in its final form and right now it isn't looking so healthy. As far as publicity goes, SV messed this one up by revealing the ugly development side in all its glory to the people they're meant to be drawing in.
I'd argue the two are pretty much the same. An open beta is where everybody is invited to participate, thus getting the maximum number of people on the servers pre-release just like a stress-test. Because of this, by the time you open the doors for everyone to have a look, the game should be in the final stages of polish and tweaking so that your future customers can see what the final thing would look like. Once the floodgates open, there will be plenty of work necessary fixing server balance, load etc without having to also fix endless bugs and adding new content at the same time.
That said, given that the game isn't even feature-complete yet I'd argue this isn't technically a beta at all, at least as far as traditional game development milestones go. But then again it's just a term being thrown around so if SV want to call this an "open beta" then fine. If they were to even consider calling this a free trial then they'd probably need their heads examined.
Terminology aside, the key point here is they've cocked it all up. The wider audience doesn't want to sit there watching the stage being constructed and the actors rehearsing their lines, they want to see the show in its final form and right now it isn't looking so healthy. As far as publicity goes, SV messed this one up by revealing the ugly development side in all its glory to the people they're meant to be drawing in.
I had stated many, many months ago (almost a year, I think) that beta = feature complete.
If they are adding features in during their "open beta" then it's not a beta. It's an alpha. Unfortunately SV has conned everybody into thinking that Blizzard is the only company that goes by those rules, but if they actually took a computer science class, they'd know that *EVERYBODY* goes by those rules.
My friend.. niche market has nothing to do with selling a complete product. As I stated in my message above I strongly believe that allowing a company to lower the bar (even lower than our normal attrocious standards) is quite damaging to the sandbox genre. Already thousands of people have tried Mortal online through the Open Beta and this was their first experience with a game billed as a sandbox. Many of those people are lost to the sandbox genre forever because their impression is now that "sandbox" means incomplete game with nothing to do except harvest the same ore/timber, craft weapons and armor.. and kill each other (for no reason other than killing each other).
Instead of lowering our standards we need to raise them and demand that companies release feature complete games and not shovelware with the mentality that it can all get fixed at some later time after release.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
k, if you say so.
btw. what do have servers in common with "beta test" phrase ?
Of course not physically.
edit: mmkay, trolling is the thing which connects everything
my trolling explained it perfectly
--
/thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)