There is a major difference between what an mmorpg does and what a single player RPG does.
MMORPG games are easy as hell, but they make their grind take so long in some cases months and years to reach level caps, and at that point your ether sick of the game or deprived of any real challenge. End game in mmorpg games usually involves high # of players working together to do something which other than getting everyone on the same page, and eventually getting everyone well geared enough is usually not a challenge just more time consuming.
RPG games are a challenge, they have puzzles, they have bosses that can actually kill you, confusing rooms, and many other things that add to the challenge.
Only really 2 mmos / online games that I know of that actually provide this kind of adventure feel and challenge without so much of the grind.
after i played zelda phantom hour glass and megaman battle network, i find mmo's kinda the same- all u do is grind. quests r grind. all u do is pointless clicking - ur character and mobs taking turns to hit each other.. BORING
now dont hate on me, i dont mean all mmo's, i kinda like the mmo runescape and dungeon and dragon cuz the quests are require more thinking.
I am glad that this was posted on an MMO-dedicated site. I am feeling the same way: MMO Burnout. I've done a lot of solitary RPGs to recapture that immersion that I first had with MMOs. In fact, I went to MMOs for a time because the solitary games were starting to get stagnant to me. One thing that I've really enjoyed is how Mass Effect 2 took a lot of your decisions from Mass Effect 1 to effect the game. Not many games do that and I applaud it as it gives the game a real sense of continuity.
I believe that there is hope as most of the MMOs in production that I've been following seem to want to move towards more innovation instead of trying to stick with the normal formula. I just hope that something interesting sees the light of day to bring me back into the genre.
I agree with SnarlingWolf's comment, and go one step further in saying that MMORPGs should have a high challenge rating, regardless of player skill. Let me give some background that led to my feelings on the topic. A short time ago, I picked up Demon's Souls for the PS3. I had unsubbed from WoW just before that and was looking for a fun console game. Sitting down, I made a character and jumped into the game. An hour later, I was frustrated. The game was hard... unforgivingly hard. Each level had its own tricks and traps, enemies were relentless (even if the AI was weird at times) and charging into a fight meant almost certain death. After another hour of playing and experiencing (what I then thought to be) the incredibly harsh death penalty several times over, I put the controller down and said, "Enough." A week later, and after giving myself time to cool off, I found myself thinking of the game. It had wiped the floor with me and I thought to myself, "Why?" Why couldn't I beat it? I consider myself a capable gamer, but I looked at the games I had been playing and realized I had been gaming in Easy World. WoW had softened me, and now I was playing a game with more versatile features. Realizing this, I sat down again and started playing the game, but this time I took my time and thought about my actions. Where once I got slaughtered by a blue-eyed demon knight on the first level, I spent a few minutes learned his tactics, dodging his blows, and landing hits when and where I could. After letting him heal himself by mistake, I finally downed him and felt something I hadn't in a long while. Accomplishment. I had taken out a minor minion of the level and I felt great. I never felt this while playing WoW or other games like AoC. I was challenged now and a part of my brain switched on that made me adapt to the game, not the other way around. Personally, I would love an MMO to adapt greater AI and have an experience more like Demon's Souls (adapted for MMO landscapes, of course). I love the game through and through now because I understand it, took the time to learn and mold myself to what was required, all while shaping a character. MMORPGs, regardless of what types of people play them, need to have a strong challenging world where not everyone can achieve the 'pinnacle' of success. It'd be there, and always would be, but I don't want to be one of the hundreds of thousands who have achieved the same thing. If 'casual' gamers can't do everything, so be it; that's the fate of a 'casual' gamer. You can still accomplish significant things, but not everything. If you want to pursue challenges, take the time to learn and adapt to the game. Tl;dr version: Demon's Souls gave me a wake-up call and a new perspective when looking at MMORPGs. I know there are other inspiring games out there, but this one showed me I need to be challenged and even killed a few times so I can remember the world is in control, not me. It shouldn't matter what your playstyle is; an MMO world should challenge you to learn its secrets and strategies in order to succeed.
I just picked up this game as well; Soul Lv.40 atm. Felt the same way killing the first blue eyed demon XD.... just wait until you get invaded by another player!
Was just saying to a friend earlier that I hope games like Demon's Souls and Monster Hunter overtake the MMO in the online Arena....another console generation and I think we will have it. Ive had more fun playing Demon's Souls Multiplayer than I have in any MMO for the past 4 years.
I've got to agree here. I have felt this way for several years now. At first I thought it was my having kids or getting old, or whatever. But then I came to the same conclusion as you, mmo's just don't make the pve aspect any fun.
I agree that something needs to change but like others in this thread have already pointed out. Most of today's MMO players aren't going to accept the change. At least not right away. Most of the suggestions mentioned in this thread to make things better would cause major uproar and controversy.
Let's hope the new Bioware MMO will bring something new to the genre. I've given up on MMOs for now, and I am only playing League of Legends when I feel the PvP cravings. At least there I can skip straight to the action.
Haha, exactly what I was going to say, except for the At least there I can skip straight to the action. part!
This is, by far, the best thread, column that I ever read in this site... Congratulations to the writer..
I have lost ´that love feeling´ also and I was striving to know why... I am playing Dragon Age: Origins right now and trying, with a lot of pain, to play Sar Trek Online (I am a trekkie willing to enjoy the game, and I just gave up and canceled my subs). DA:O is givig to me all the thrill that MMOs dont give me anymore... And the reasons are all in this writing... I particularly enjoyed this part:
"The MMO gaming experience has devolved into a game of numbers, far more so than any other genre. While every game possesses its own methods of min-maxing and power gaming, the MMO has made number-crunching "the way." If you don't adhere closely to recommended specs, talents, rotations, or reach certain measurable performance standards, you are the outcast: the noob who needs to L2P, the player who "sucks," the underachiever, even if your methods procure a fun way to play."
Thats right!!! The only difference between one MMO and other is the ´tactic´ on numbers!!! There is no fantasy anymore, there is no innocence anymore, the ´newbie factor´ disappear fastly because the ´gang´ is more worried to know the stats and how to use it to kill the enemy than to discover the world (because, as the writer put it, we all know the drill, to gather 10 frog legs, or to escort this, or that, or to kill this or that, and even PvP games are all the same, a combat between specs and skills like lolcoptering).
I am frankly tired of MMOs, and I can see the genre dying fastly (my girlfriend do prefer to play American McGee Alice than LOTRO that she loved so much, but now it lost the spark, after a few years doing the same thing over and over...).
The only thing briefly amusing on a MMO to me today is the starting, where I can fool myself, specially on char creation, that I am playing a new game... That doesnt last 30 mins...cAnd the fantasy soon dies on numbers of stats and players using the best equip to do the very same thing that they do on ALL MMOS around...
Originally posted by korvix I just picked up this game as well; Soul Lv.40 atm. Felt the same way killing the first blue eyed demon XD.... just wait until you get invaded by another player!
Was just saying to a friend earlier that I hope games like Demon's Souls and Monster Hunter overtake the MMO in the online Arena....another console generation and I think we will have it. Ive had more fun playing Demon's Souls Multiplayer than I have in any MMO for the past 4 years.
I dont think the problem is in the ´level´ of challenge, not to me at least... If that was the problem , PvP with player skill only would solve it... The problem is that we are really tired of the same things all over and over again... Try to kill this blue demon again, again, again and again (over 3-4 years, almost every day) and you will see what I am talking about... All the MMOS are the same, be it easy or difficult, once you get the hang of it, you just know what will happen next... And because this, mostly gamers try the ´math´ side of the MMO to improve their experience of gaming (its natural, they all know what happens next, maybe there is more difference in the numbers). Then you have an army of specialist on equips, tactics of PvP / PvE, all forgetting the game itself and concentrating on numbers, dull tactics..
What you 2 felt killing this demon is not the accomplishment that came from the difficult of the game itself, but the accomplishment that came from you being forced to do YOUR thing, alone by the frist time, to kill it.. You discovered by yourself, and killed it... IT was like YOU killed it by the first time, and doing anything by the first time is difficult.. Get a total newbie to play a MMO and he will be THRILLED with the difficulty (Oh boy, you have to cast this ´root´ thing to stop him, and then getting far from it and then ask my pet to aggro it, and I have to control my threat level, so he doesnt come to met?!?! AMAZING!!!! To kill blue demons I just need to dodge and shoot...).
Love this article and all the input I see from the community here. I figured i should toss my two cents in for your generally mauling.
The problem with these games is not the Developers OR the Community. It is Both. I currently play WoW but I started out playing UO. I was on an RP shard and having a blast until I wanted to get into some of the more group based content. This was when I found that most people who played on this RP server did not want to RP. A fun backstory and a flawed character design make for an interesting play. As a classing Pen and Paper gamer I know that it is what you Cannot do that makes your character fun, not what you can. When I tried to get involved with other players in larger organizations i was told I "was playing the game wrong and could not join them" because I did not Min/Max my character. This was disheartening but was the core of the problem. Now fast forward to now where I play WoW. I still have people telling me "You are playing the game wrong" because my Warlock is not munchkin'd out to DPS 6k. (For those that do not know that is 6 thousand damage a second).
Who is ruining my fun? The developers who created the content that requires me to need other players who want me to fit their mold?
If you have played some of the Raids you know that they can be very hard and require an exacting strategy that can easily be influenced by one player simply standing in the wrong place. If you have ever been in a 25 man raid and wiped on the last boss because you screwed up it is Not pretty. The content is their for the more difficult and more skilled players but really it is only there at the End Game.
Once again whose fault is it that my fun is ruined? The players who have a narrow view of the role I should fulfill or the Developers who created the world that defined the role as it is needed?
Love this article and all the input I see from the community here. I figured i should toss my two cents in for your generally mauling. The problem with these games is not the Developers OR the Community. It is Both. I currently play WoW but I started out playing UO. I was on an RP shard and having a blast until I wanted to get into some of the more group based content. This was when I found that most people who played on this RP server did not want to RP. A fun backstory and a flawed character design make for an interesting play. As a classing Pen and Paper gamer I know that it is what you Cannot do that makes your character fun, not what you can. When I tried to get involved with other players in larger organizations i was told I "was playing the game wrong and could not join them" because I did not Min/Max my character. This was disheartening but was the core of the problem. Now fast forward to now where I play WoW. I still have people telling me "You are playing the game wrong" because my Warlock is not munchkin'd out to DPS 6k. (For those that do not know that is 6 thousand damage a second). Who is ruining my fun? The developers who created the content that requires me to need other players who want me to fit their mold? If you have played some of the Raids you know that they can be very hard and require an exacting strategy that can easily be influenced by one player simply standing in the wrong place. If you have ever been in a 25 man raid and wiped on the last boss because you screwed up it is Not pretty. The content is their for the more difficult and more skilled players but really it is only there at the End Game. Once again whose fault is it that my fun is ruined? The players who have a narrow view of the role I should fulfill or the Developers who created the world that defined the role as it is needed?
Good point, good question...
I think the community is just addicted to this genre of gaming... Its like a bad mexican soap opera... Everyone knows how it ends, but we are all addicted to it, because for some reason, we do expect it to change, praying that it doesnt... We feel safe, we know the drill, we had fun with it in the past... I remember my first days on Darkfall, it was my hope of good gaming... I got myself with 2 other friends, old MMOers (very old, from SWG Pre-CU)... I decided to explore the world, they joined in my blissfull ignorance... Every cave we saw was a surprise!!! Every mob was a doubt (can we kill it, how we kill it? Is it worth the try? Are we being watched by PKs?)... Then a friend who is more addicted than us, saw us playing and said ´You dont need to do it, you will get only crap loot and its too dangerous, come with me, I do knowa place to camp a NPC who drop a good amount of loot and its safe)... Soon our group was disbanded and there I was doing our drill, exactly like every MMO out there, camping a NPC, looting, using the same tactics to get it, over and over again... My friends were happy, I know that they saw our expedition as naive and ´newbie´, and forgot the feeling of being in something new...
Therefore, I do agree with you, its the community fault as it is the devs fault, since they use the same mold, with slight differences, to every MMO... And we, teh community, always pick the easier way, the gray path, the safe one... And we watch the soap opera, knowing that the good guy will marry the poor girld, and the rich villain will suffer a hideous end... And we will cheer with it...
This is, by far, the best thread, column that I ever read in this site... Congratulations to the writer.. I have lost ´that love feeling´ also and I was striving to know why... I am playing Dragon Age: Origins right now and trying, with a lot of pain, to play Sar Trek Online (I am a trekkie willing to enjoy the game, and I just gave up and canceled my subs). DA:O is givig to me all the thrill that MMOs dont give me anymore...
It was the same for me with playing STO and Mass Effect 2 at the same time.
Great article, it really addresses why I struggle to play most MMOs with any degree of success.
There are two games I play that allow for the feeling of permanence most MMOs are missing.
1. EVE Online - Massive alliance battle over territory in the nullsec (0.0) areas of space. What are they fighting over? Territory. Territory owned allows you access to more money and resources, should you be able to exploit them of course. The idea is that your actions actually have consequences. When you build a ship, someone buys it, they get it blown up... they need a new ship. And there you are to build them another one. Everything is player driven, everything is meaningful. I like that about EVE.
2. Wurm Online - Now here is a dream game.... imagine a first person, skill based game, where you can terraform the land with almost no limits, actually cut down or plant trees, build buildings in the size and shape you want, build walls, build ships, mine tunnels into mountains, breed animals (for war or food or work)... that is Wurm Online. If you can get past the sometimes awkward interface and grasp the way the item quality system works (items have a quality level that can be repaired, items take damage by being used, items also decay slowly over time, etc) you will find a game that is actually remarkably good.
I urge anyone looking for a good sandbox game to play this game. A word of warning though: this game is not finished, by any means. It still lacks a lot of animations, the graphics are still being worked on, and the game has its bugs, but trust me, this game is too unique to pass up.
I would have listed Planetside as a third option but... well, techincally, it wasn't permanent, but your actions nonetheless had tangible effects on the game world. Still, the game is no longer what it once was. So here's to Planetside, one of the best games I ever played.
I think MMOs are closer related to "games" like Farmville than to the grand The Legend of Zelda. I also believe we could learn from politics: if things seem to go wrong all the time, don't assume someone makes mistaks. Assume it's the way it's meant to be. Why? MMOs are played for very long periods of time, not just a few dozen hours. The thing that makes you play are your friends and social networks, not really the game. The game must be interesting enough to log in for the first time and it must be good enough to keep you hooked long enough until (mild) addiction kicks in: your social obligations, people to chat and some repetitive tasks to keep you busy. The milestones, levels and things you get, your first mount, the flaming uberpants are designed as the carrot on the stick to push you forward and help you through boring moments. By the time the trinkets have generated enough endogenous value so that the virtual goods are actually somehow important, like the correct brand of sneaker shoes you certainly have. There is data indicating that players master levels faster when their next level up is an important milestone (new ability etc). Level ranges where nothing really special happens are leveled slower, not because people suddenly enjoy the game more. There is just lesser "force" to move them forward, that's when the social stuff is important.
It cannot be too exciting, because you would'nt have time to socialize and you would not do the same repetitive things over and over for a couple of months. Average joe stays with one game for several months. The MMO is made so that you can watch TV or do something else. Metagame counts as well. The MMO just needs to enhance the situation, more like a radio while you drive. Maybe all the things you do are boring if done separately, but they become acceptable and fun once you do the things at the same time. If you play a subscription game, companies don't need (or even want) you to play, they just need to convice you that loggin in while doing something else is worth the money. Actually, they just need enough concurrent players so their systems, most important social aspects, work.
Now, maybe that's not you. You post on a core gamer MMO portal anyway. You actually play the games, because they are somehow fun to you. I am quite certain it's different for the other people out there. Grown up with a brain flooded with information, nano-second video cuts of flashy MTV clips and a short attention span, MMOs are made for them. They aren't meant to be immersive and fun. Why don't we play MMOs from the couch? I guess that's because you need to quickly tab to the internet and you need the extra screen to run your favorite TV show. You can't play from the couch, because that would make MMOs look boring. Your semi comfortable desk chair is perfect to put you into a procrastination mood, where you would LIKE to achieve something but you don't most of the time--designed to make your brain idle. In asia, especially korea, it even becomes one-handed gaming, because people smoke with the other (that's the not so inaccurate prejudice) and they NEED to. You can't make the game challenging and immersive in the larger part of the game. You can have spikes, just enough to serve as a carrot stick. I wonder why MMOs are not more like Farmville, not less. I guess the next Blizzard MMO will be.
Exaggeration for the sake of illustration. I guess developers as idealistic as you exist as well, otherwise we wouldn't have the discussion.
I also love the Zelda series, but I've never heard of an RPG fan who didn't know that Zelda was the name of the Princess . . . and you call yourself one of us, for shame. LOL!
You're right though, today's games have me crying for a game like Asheron's Call or Everquest with the same old grind and better graphics. What happened to MMO's? I can't seem to figure out what it is that all these newer games are missing . . . seems more to me like it's a form of magic to get an MMO right, but more or less I think it's been over-capitalized.
I also believe there are so many factors missing from today's MMO's that the task of working on a new MMO is daunting to the Nth degree. Originality, difficulty, deep story lines, mysterious "undocumented" quests, open exploration and mind-numbing character calculations are among the greatest in my mind. If it sounds too hard to develop and even HARDER to play . . . I want in.
Does anyone recall their first MMO experience? Asheron's Call was my first experience, not but a month or two after it's original launch. Then again, when I was a n00b to the MMO world I didn't read up on ever facet of the game either, I just explored and hoped for the best. So, on the part of individual play-styles, I'd say online collaboration to divulge every facet of every game from the moment of it's conception "spoils" most MMO's before they get a chance to surprise us from the ground up. So, some of the blame we have to put on our very own selves sometimes.
There are also the games that never received the proper polish before launch and continued to have trouble after launch (Asheron's Call 2 and Vanguard come to mind), but had the real potential to draw on their predecessors and usher in a whole new slew of MMO veterans and n00bs alike. With all of the WoW and FFXI/Anime knock-offs out there, it went from picking one of two possibilities (AC or EQ) to "What do I do with myself now?"
I've found myself enjoying The Chronicles of Spellborn, Runes of Magic and Dungeons and Dragons online. Why? They are free and I can't think of not one better P2P game out there that has drawn me in enough to make paying for them worthwhile.
With that said, there is hope! Diablo 3 will be coming out soon, Hero's Journey is still in development, Heroes of Telara is also in development and FFXIV shouldn't keep use waiting for too much longer, right?
Great article all-around. Good luck hunting (for a game, not in one, lol)!
I so agree! MMOs just tend to be point and click for the most part. I mean, yeah, they throw in a few skills, some potions, but it's just SO grind heavy. They really need innovation!
Wow, well said about current and past mmo's. They are indeed very lacking and all fall under the same standards too often. The devs really need to come up with new ideas for mmo's, especially environment interaction. Can you imagine the different possiblities and fun a mmo can have if they did that? Instead of you and your party running up to the boss and hitting it or casting magic on it. You can use objects on the field/room to kill or weaken it. Example: Throwing a spear into the bosses weak point, make a boulder come crashing down on it, or making it fall down a pit temporarily to open a window of opportunity to attack and even kill it. And this doesn't even have to be just for bosses, other enemies can suffer the same fate. They can even make it into a team play action. Not like you can push a boulder by yourself or distract the boss long enough to throw that spear.
UO, WoW, and EQ2 all have such mechanics.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
For me, MMOs have lost their sparkle because of the lack of challenge, because of the lack of imagination in gameplay, and the lack of "reward" for accomplishing something.
Lack of challenge. I really hope the trend of making everything continually easier doesn't continue. But then again a 50 million dollar budget Farmville/MafiaWars would probably rake in the cash.
Imagination. Rigid gameplay standards are the norm now-a-days it seems. You WILL hit buttons x, y, and z in the same order now and forever. I'm a Jason type player. I want a wide array of things that I can do at any time that do a wide variety of things that are all reasonably equal choices to accomplish my goal. Do I feel like my double-barrel shot gun or my chainsaw at this moment? Maybe I want to smash it to bits with an iron. Maybe I'll use my hook shot at this moment and slash it to bits with my chain saw. The clothy should be capable of tanking. The plate guy should be perfectly viable ranged dps.
Reward. Loot doesn't matter anymore. It'll be replaced in a month or less. Save the princess, cure a plague, kill the ultimate bad guy of evil, Save the world from being made mini by gnomes? Dime a dozen within a single MMO. Many MMOs seem to suffer from power-up manga syndrome. The story telling is quite mundane.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Originally posted by midmagic Many MMOs seem to suffer from power-up manga syndrome.
Power-Up Manga Syndrome, LMBO! I hope you don't mind if I use that line someday.
I read a few of your posts Midmagic and for the most part, I agree. Some games DO have interactive environments, but I think the previous poster was talking about the level of interaction that not only goes up to the Legend of Zelda series but does so just as often, just as integrated into every step and (as it appeared to read to me) well beyond.
I still argue that making an MMO out of a game exactly like Oblivion would put smiles on a LOT of faces, but I'd take Zelda as well (which makes me wonder why someone hasn't turned Zelda or another big, original NES title into an MMO). Right about now I'd take a Mario Bros. MMORPG if the devs just kept it "close". Anyways, I keep going back to Oblivion over and over again, and I could practically recite all of the dialog. My point being, look at all of the games that people love . . . they were pretty darn hard and we loved it (that's what she said).
Make it retarded-hard (no offense), put content in it that one one is going to get to until at least a year after the game's released, make it complex to understand, hide quests all over the place (some that may never even be discovered) and make sure you cut anything "cartoony" out of it. Watch me sit at my computer for the next 6 years happily playing until the graphics become completely intolerable and likely well beyond!
::: coughs Asheron's Call :::
Anyways, great posts. It's good to see so many people commenting on the topic and having fun getting it all out there. I know I feel better.
Comments
There is a major difference between what an mmorpg does and what a single player RPG does.
MMORPG games are easy as hell, but they make their grind take so long in some cases months and years to reach level caps, and at that point your ether sick of the game or deprived of any real challenge. End game in mmorpg games usually involves high # of players working together to do something which other than getting everyone on the same page, and eventually getting everyone well geared enough is usually not a challenge just more time consuming.
RPG games are a challenge, they have puzzles, they have bosses that can actually kill you, confusing rooms, and many other things that add to the challenge.
Only really 2 mmos / online games that I know of that actually provide this kind of adventure feel and challenge without so much of the grind.
Monster hunter
and D&D online.
after i played zelda phantom hour glass and megaman battle network, i find mmo's kinda the same- all u do is grind. quests r grind. all u do is pointless clicking - ur character and mobs taking turns to hit each other.. BORING
now dont hate on me, i dont mean all mmo's, i kinda like the mmo runescape and dungeon and dragon cuz the quests are require more thinking.
I am glad that this was posted on an MMO-dedicated site. I am feeling the same way: MMO Burnout. I've done a lot of solitary RPGs to recapture that immersion that I first had with MMOs. In fact, I went to MMOs for a time because the solitary games were starting to get stagnant to me. One thing that I've really enjoyed is how Mass Effect 2 took a lot of your decisions from Mass Effect 1 to effect the game. Not many games do that and I applaud it as it gives the game a real sense of continuity.
I believe that there is hope as most of the MMOs in production that I've been following seem to want to move towards more innovation instead of trying to stick with the normal formula. I just hope that something interesting sees the light of day to bring me back into the genre.
I just picked up this game as well; Soul Lv.40 atm. Felt the same way killing the first blue eyed demon XD.... just wait until you get invaded by another player!
Was just saying to a friend earlier that I hope games like Demon's Souls and Monster Hunter overtake the MMO in the online Arena....another console generation and I think we will have it. Ive had more fun playing Demon's Souls Multiplayer than I have in any MMO for the past 4 years.
I've got to agree here. I have felt this way for several years now. At first I thought it was my having kids or getting old, or whatever. But then I came to the same conclusion as you, mmo's just don't make the pve aspect any fun.
I agree that something needs to change but like others in this thread have already pointed out. Most of today's MMO players aren't going to accept the change. At least not right away. Most of the suggestions mentioned in this thread to make things better would cause major uproar and controversy.
Haha, exactly what I was going to say, except for the At least there I can skip straight to the action. part!
This is, by far, the best thread, column that I ever read in this site... Congratulations to the writer..
I have lost ´that love feeling´ also and I was striving to know why... I am playing Dragon Age: Origins right now and trying, with a lot of pain, to play Sar Trek Online (I am a trekkie willing to enjoy the game, and I just gave up and canceled my subs). DA:O is givig to me all the thrill that MMOs dont give me anymore... And the reasons are all in this writing... I particularly enjoyed this part:
"The MMO gaming experience has devolved into a game of numbers, far more so than any other genre. While every game possesses its own methods of min-maxing and power gaming, the MMO has made number-crunching "the way." If you don't adhere closely to recommended specs, talents, rotations, or reach certain measurable performance standards, you are the outcast: the noob who needs to L2P, the player who "sucks," the underachiever, even if your methods procure a fun way to play."
Thats right!!! The only difference between one MMO and other is the ´tactic´ on numbers!!! There is no fantasy anymore, there is no innocence anymore, the ´newbie factor´ disappear fastly because the ´gang´ is more worried to know the stats and how to use it to kill the enemy than to discover the world (because, as the writer put it, we all know the drill, to gather 10 frog legs, or to escort this, or that, or to kill this or that, and even PvP games are all the same, a combat between specs and skills like lolcoptering).
I am frankly tired of MMOs, and I can see the genre dying fastly (my girlfriend do prefer to play American McGee Alice than LOTRO that she loved so much, but now it lost the spark, after a few years doing the same thing over and over...).
The only thing briefly amusing on a MMO to me today is the starting, where I can fool myself, specially on char creation, that I am playing a new game... That doesnt last 30 mins...cAnd the fantasy soon dies on numbers of stats and players using the best equip to do the very same thing that they do on ALL MMOS around...
I dont think the problem is in the ´level´ of challenge, not to me at least... If that was the problem , PvP with player skill only would solve it... The problem is that we are really tired of the same things all over and over again... Try to kill this blue demon again, again, again and again (over 3-4 years, almost every day) and you will see what I am talking about... All the MMOS are the same, be it easy or difficult, once you get the hang of it, you just know what will happen next... And because this, mostly gamers try the ´math´ side of the MMO to improve their experience of gaming (its natural, they all know what happens next, maybe there is more difference in the numbers). Then you have an army of specialist on equips, tactics of PvP / PvE, all forgetting the game itself and concentrating on numbers, dull tactics..
What you 2 felt killing this demon is not the accomplishment that came from the difficult of the game itself, but the accomplishment that came from you being forced to do YOUR thing, alone by the frist time, to kill it.. You discovered by yourself, and killed it... IT was like YOU killed it by the first time, and doing anything by the first time is difficult.. Get a total newbie to play a MMO and he will be THRILLED with the difficulty (Oh boy, you have to cast this ´root´ thing to stop him, and then getting far from it and then ask my pet to aggro it, and I have to control my threat level, so he doesnt come to met?!?! AMAZING!!!! To kill blue demons I just need to dodge and shoot...).
Love this article and all the input I see from the community here. I figured i should toss my two cents in for your generally mauling.
The problem with these games is not the Developers OR the Community. It is Both. I currently play WoW but I started out playing UO. I was on an RP shard and having a blast until I wanted to get into some of the more group based content. This was when I found that most people who played on this RP server did not want to RP. A fun backstory and a flawed character design make for an interesting play. As a classing Pen and Paper gamer I know that it is what you Cannot do that makes your character fun, not what you can. When I tried to get involved with other players in larger organizations i was told I "was playing the game wrong and could not join them" because I did not Min/Max my character. This was disheartening but was the core of the problem. Now fast forward to now where I play WoW. I still have people telling me "You are playing the game wrong" because my Warlock is not munchkin'd out to DPS 6k. (For those that do not know that is 6 thousand damage a second).
Who is ruining my fun? The developers who created the content that requires me to need other players who want me to fit their mold?
If you have played some of the Raids you know that they can be very hard and require an exacting strategy that can easily be influenced by one player simply standing in the wrong place. If you have ever been in a 25 man raid and wiped on the last boss because you screwed up it is Not pretty. The content is their for the more difficult and more skilled players but really it is only there at the End Game.
Once again whose fault is it that my fun is ruined? The players who have a narrow view of the role I should fulfill or the Developers who created the world that defined the role as it is needed?
Good point, good question...
I think the community is just addicted to this genre of gaming... Its like a bad mexican soap opera... Everyone knows how it ends, but we are all addicted to it, because for some reason, we do expect it to change, praying that it doesnt... We feel safe, we know the drill, we had fun with it in the past... I remember my first days on Darkfall, it was my hope of good gaming... I got myself with 2 other friends, old MMOers (very old, from SWG Pre-CU)... I decided to explore the world, they joined in my blissfull ignorance... Every cave we saw was a surprise!!! Every mob was a doubt (can we kill it, how we kill it? Is it worth the try? Are we being watched by PKs?)... Then a friend who is more addicted than us, saw us playing and said ´You dont need to do it, you will get only crap loot and its too dangerous, come with me, I do knowa place to camp a NPC who drop a good amount of loot and its safe)... Soon our group was disbanded and there I was doing our drill, exactly like every MMO out there, camping a NPC, looting, using the same tactics to get it, over and over again... My friends were happy, I know that they saw our expedition as naive and ´newbie´, and forgot the feeling of being in something new...
Therefore, I do agree with you, its the community fault as it is the devs fault, since they use the same mold, with slight differences, to every MMO... And we, teh community, always pick the easier way, the gray path, the safe one... And we watch the soap opera, knowing that the good guy will marry the poor girld, and the rich villain will suffer a hideous end... And we will cheer with it...
It was the same for me with playing STO and Mass Effect 2 at the same time.
Great article, it really addresses why I struggle to play most MMOs with any degree of success.
There are two games I play that allow for the feeling of permanence most MMOs are missing.
1. EVE Online - Massive alliance battle over territory in the nullsec (0.0) areas of space. What are they fighting over? Territory. Territory owned allows you access to more money and resources, should you be able to exploit them of course. The idea is that your actions actually have consequences. When you build a ship, someone buys it, they get it blown up... they need a new ship. And there you are to build them another one. Everything is player driven, everything is meaningful. I like that about EVE.
2. Wurm Online - Now here is a dream game.... imagine a first person, skill based game, where you can terraform the land with almost no limits, actually cut down or plant trees, build buildings in the size and shape you want, build walls, build ships, mine tunnels into mountains, breed animals (for war or food or work)... that is Wurm Online. If you can get past the sometimes awkward interface and grasp the way the item quality system works (items have a quality level that can be repaired, items take damage by being used, items also decay slowly over time, etc) you will find a game that is actually remarkably good.
I urge anyone looking for a good sandbox game to play this game. A word of warning though: this game is not finished, by any means. It still lacks a lot of animations, the graphics are still being worked on, and the game has its bugs, but trust me, this game is too unique to pass up.
I would have listed Planetside as a third option but... well, techincally, it wasn't permanent, but your actions nonetheless had tangible effects on the game world. Still, the game is no longer what it once was. So here's to Planetside, one of the best games I ever played.
One game to rule them all: DFO
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
I think MMOs are closer related to "games" like Farmville than to the grand The Legend of Zelda. I also believe we could learn from politics: if things seem to go wrong all the time, don't assume someone makes mistaks. Assume it's the way it's meant to be. Why? MMOs are played for very long periods of time, not just a few dozen hours. The thing that makes you play are your friends and social networks, not really the game. The game must be interesting enough to log in for the first time and it must be good enough to keep you hooked long enough until (mild) addiction kicks in: your social obligations, people to chat and some repetitive tasks to keep you busy. The milestones, levels and things you get, your first mount, the flaming uberpants are designed as the carrot on the stick to push you forward and help you through boring moments. By the time the trinkets have generated enough endogenous value so that the virtual goods are actually somehow important, like the correct brand of sneaker shoes you certainly have. There is data indicating that players master levels faster when their next level up is an important milestone (new ability etc). Level ranges where nothing really special happens are leveled slower, not because people suddenly enjoy the game more. There is just lesser "force" to move them forward, that's when the social stuff is important.
It cannot be too exciting, because you would'nt have time to socialize and you would not do the same repetitive things over and over for a couple of months. Average joe stays with one game for several months. The MMO is made so that you can watch TV or do something else. Metagame counts as well. The MMO just needs to enhance the situation, more like a radio while you drive. Maybe all the things you do are boring if done separately, but they become acceptable and fun once you do the things at the same time. If you play a subscription game, companies don't need (or even want) you to play, they just need to convice you that loggin in while doing something else is worth the money. Actually, they just need enough concurrent players so their systems, most important social aspects, work.
Now, maybe that's not you. You post on a core gamer MMO portal anyway. You actually play the games, because they are somehow fun to you. I am quite certain it's different for the other people out there. Grown up with a brain flooded with information, nano-second video cuts of flashy MTV clips and a short attention span, MMOs are made for them. They aren't meant to be immersive and fun. Why don't we play MMOs from the couch? I guess that's because you need to quickly tab to the internet and you need the extra screen to run your favorite TV show. You can't play from the couch, because that would make MMOs look boring. Your semi comfortable desk chair is perfect to put you into a procrastination mood, where you would LIKE to achieve something but you don't most of the time--designed to make your brain idle. In asia, especially korea, it even becomes one-handed gaming, because people smoke with the other (that's the not so inaccurate prejudice) and they NEED to. You can't make the game challenging and immersive in the larger part of the game. You can have spikes, just enough to serve as a carrot stick. I wonder why MMOs are not more like Farmville, not less. I guess the next Blizzard MMO will be.
Exaggeration for the sake of illustration. I guess developers as idealistic as you exist as well, otherwise we wouldn't have the discussion.
Now this post is straight after my own heart!
I also love the Zelda series, but I've never heard of an RPG fan who didn't know that Zelda was the name of the Princess . . . and you call yourself one of us, for shame. LOL!
You're right though, today's games have me crying for a game like Asheron's Call or Everquest with the same old grind and better graphics. What happened to MMO's? I can't seem to figure out what it is that all these newer games are missing . . . seems more to me like it's a form of magic to get an MMO right, but more or less I think it's been over-capitalized.
I also believe there are so many factors missing from today's MMO's that the task of working on a new MMO is daunting to the Nth degree. Originality, difficulty, deep story lines, mysterious "undocumented" quests, open exploration and mind-numbing character calculations are among the greatest in my mind. If it sounds too hard to develop and even HARDER to play . . . I want in.
Does anyone recall their first MMO experience? Asheron's Call was my first experience, not but a month or two after it's original launch. Then again, when I was a n00b to the MMO world I didn't read up on ever facet of the game either, I just explored and hoped for the best. So, on the part of individual play-styles, I'd say online collaboration to divulge every facet of every game from the moment of it's conception "spoils" most MMO's before they get a chance to surprise us from the ground up. So, some of the blame we have to put on our very own selves sometimes.
There are also the games that never received the proper polish before launch and continued to have trouble after launch (Asheron's Call 2 and Vanguard come to mind), but had the real potential to draw on their predecessors and usher in a whole new slew of MMO veterans and n00bs alike. With all of the WoW and FFXI/Anime knock-offs out there, it went from picking one of two possibilities (AC or EQ) to "What do I do with myself now?"
I've found myself enjoying The Chronicles of Spellborn, Runes of Magic and Dungeons and Dragons online. Why? They are free and I can't think of not one better P2P game out there that has drawn me in enough to make paying for them worthwhile.
With that said, there is hope! Diablo 3 will be coming out soon, Hero's Journey is still in development, Heroes of Telara is also in development and FFXIV shouldn't keep use waiting for too much longer, right?
Great article all-around. Good luck hunting (for a game, not in one, lol)!
I so agree! MMOs just tend to be point and click for the most part. I mean, yeah, they throw in a few skills, some potions, but it's just SO grind heavy. They really need innovation!
UO, WoW, and EQ2 all have such mechanics.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
For me, MMOs have lost their sparkle because of the lack of challenge, because of the lack of imagination in gameplay, and the lack of "reward" for accomplishing something.
Lack of challenge. I really hope the trend of making everything continually easier doesn't continue. But then again a 50 million dollar budget Farmville/MafiaWars would probably rake in the cash.
Imagination. Rigid gameplay standards are the norm now-a-days it seems. You WILL hit buttons x, y, and z in the same order now and forever. I'm a Jason type player. I want a wide array of things that I can do at any time that do a wide variety of things that are all reasonably equal choices to accomplish my goal. Do I feel like my double-barrel shot gun or my chainsaw at this moment? Maybe I want to smash it to bits with an iron. Maybe I'll use my hook shot at this moment and slash it to bits with my chain saw. The clothy should be capable of tanking. The plate guy should be perfectly viable ranged dps.
Reward. Loot doesn't matter anymore. It'll be replaced in a month or less. Save the princess, cure a plague, kill the ultimate bad guy of evil, Save the world from being made mini by gnomes? Dime a dozen within a single MMO. Many MMOs seem to suffer from power-up manga syndrome. The story telling is quite mundane.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Power-Up Manga Syndrome, LMBO! I hope you don't mind if I use that line someday.
I read a few of your posts Midmagic and for the most part, I agree. Some games DO have interactive environments, but I think the previous poster was talking about the level of interaction that not only goes up to the Legend of Zelda series but does so just as often, just as integrated into every step and (as it appeared to read to me) well beyond.
I still argue that making an MMO out of a game exactly like Oblivion would put smiles on a LOT of faces, but I'd take Zelda as well (which makes me wonder why someone hasn't turned Zelda or another big, original NES title into an MMO). Right about now I'd take a Mario Bros. MMORPG if the devs just kept it "close". Anyways, I keep going back to Oblivion over and over again, and I could practically recite all of the dialog. My point being, look at all of the games that people love . . . they were pretty darn hard and we loved it (that's what she said).
Make it retarded-hard (no offense), put content in it that one one is going to get to until at least a year after the game's released, make it complex to understand, hide quests all over the place (some that may never even be discovered) and make sure you cut anything "cartoony" out of it. Watch me sit at my computer for the next 6 years happily playing until the graphics become completely intolerable and likely well beyond!
::: coughs Asheron's Call :::
Anyways, great posts. It's good to see so many people commenting on the topic and having fun getting it all out there. I know I feel better.