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Ubisoft's New Online Super DRM - Cracked in 1 day

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  • ComnitusComnitus Member Posts: 2,462

    Assassin's Creed II also has this requirement, but I think it's more for Uplay than a DRM measure.


    "Welcome to Uplay, your new destination to fully enjoy Ubisoft games and get extra value out of them with 4 unique services and free extra content.

    - With Uplay Win, you earn Units by performing specific Actions in Uplay enabled games. Those Units can be redeemed for Rewards or saved for better Rewards later, across all Uplay enabled games and across all associated platforms (PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 and PC). Basically, the more you play, the more you win exclusive free content for your favorite games.

    - Uplay Help will give you guidance and tips to enjoy Ubisoft games at their best. Imagine being helped by the developers themselves and by other players or even helping other players yourself.

    - Uplay Share will allow you to create content from within the games and share it with your friends and the rest of the community, be it statistics, pictures, videos or even in-game content such as maps.

    - Uplay Shop will be your destination to browse and buy additional content for your favorite Ubisoft games.

    To start with, only Uplay Win is accessible directly from the Uplay enabled games, but you can already access Uplay Help and Uplay Share from www.uplay.com.

    Stay tuned on what's happening around Uplay: new services, new supported games and special offers will regularly be announced to Uplay members. There are plenty of ways we can let you know: via email, our Twitter feed or here on the news section. So as Uplay gets bigger and better, you'll be right there with us.

    The Uplay Team"


    Obviously, that kind of thing would require Internet access. Either way, I don't care, because now I benefit from an Achievement-like system without having a console.

    image

  • skeaserskeaser Member RarePosts: 4,209
    Originally posted by str8ball3r


    I can understand people being angry because they need internet connection to play the game , but its just the start , soon every game will be like that , however if the server are having troubles the problem is on the company side, I know that the silent hunter DRM was not a big success but it seems that its working for Assassin's creed 2 , seems like you can start the game but cannot do anything as the connection to the server is needed to get some code files needed in the game , so before screaming out loud that you won and that the Ubi big plan failed , maybe you should try to find a working crack for AC2.... good luck

     

    If every game goes connection-based, I'm going to start mailing feces to game companies.

    Sig so that badges don't eat my posts.


  • April-RainApril-Rain Member UncommonPosts: 316

    I was gonna buy assassins creed 2 till i saw the drm, which only upsets the paying customer and not the pirate.

    Check out there forums the drm server has been a pain in the ass having been down over the weekend and slow and unresponsive at other times, a lot of un-happy paying customers over there.......

    Playing: FFXIV
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  • str8ball3rstr8ball3r Member Posts: 10

    I think people are playing with words , imo if you are taking something without paying for a product that you are supposed to pay it can be considered stealing thats why in some country you can have a fine or being arrested for copying cause you don't have the right to sell or distribute the product , if you say that you should download a cracked copy of a game because it includes a DRM its like saying that a house should be robbed because there is an alarm ,you just want a challenge maybe because your life is so miserable that its the only way you can get adrenalin or maybe because you have something against big companies that makes more money than you which is called envy and is one of the capital sin , so Robin Hood was a thief even if he was giving the money to the poor. My point is I don't judge people that downloads cracked games for free ,I don't care at all, I judge people that are not seeing things the way they are and do not accept the fact that its stealing and try to find ways to deliver themselves from the "guilt" of being a thief by playing with words.

  • martieboymartieboy Member CommonPosts: 15

    so imagine, you bought Assassins Creed 2, then after a day or so the servers go down.. you go to forums and see someone from ubisoft post something like:   we are constantly monitoring the servers.

    A day later expecting to see them back online, you sit back try to start the game, and find out you still cant play....

    AKA: YOU bought a game, that prohibits YOU from playing, whilst pirates are happily laughing at you playing away all weekend...

    consider this, then think how YOU would feel if you bought a game that stopped you from playing it... and then consider piracy, a free way to experience (almost) the same as the full game.

  • str8ball3rstr8ball3r Member Posts: 10
    Originally posted by martieboy


    so imagine, you bought Assassins Creed 2, then after a day or so the servers go down.. you go to forums and see someone from ubisoft post something like:   we are constantly monitoring the servers.

    A day later expecting to see them back online, you sit back try to start the game, and find out you still cant play....

    AKA: YOU bought a game, that prohibits YOU from playing, whilst pirates are happily laughing at you playing away all weekend...

    consider this, then think how YOU would feel if you bought a game that stopped you from playing it... and then consider piracy, a free way to experience (almost) the same as the full game.

     

    So far Pirates cannot play AC2 because the internet connection is required to play it since theres missing code files on your dvd that you get access by connecting to their servers , so pirates cannot play more than you do , and as soon as they will fix their server problem everyone that has a real copy of the game will be able to play , its just a matter of time , don't forget that AC2 is their biggest seller and you can be assured that they will fix the problem ASAP , but I understand the anger of buying a game and not be able to play

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,957
    [Mod Edit]



     

    Well look at it in an extreme case.

    company A spends time money and resources to create this product. They release it, everyone copies it and no one buys it and they can't pay their bills and workers so they go out of business.

    Seems pretty real to me.

    If I make something, write something and I want to make my living doing so I expect to be paid if people want access to it.

    It has nothing to do with scarcity.

    if you don't think it's stealing then look at it another way, you have not compensated them for their work. Work that they did for the sole purpose of getting paid for their effort.

    If you were to be hired to dig a ditch and after doing so the person hiring you said they weren't going to pay you then that would be fine with you? They aren't stealing from you because they haven't taken a solid object? I don't think you would be wracking your brains about what they did do to you. And if after the 3rd person did that then you would still be ok? Even though you were hiring your services? I think you would have something to say about that.

    If  a person does somehting and asks that they be paid for their work then that is their right. If you don't want to pay them then don't avail yoruself of their work.

    Just like you would prefer that if a person was not going to pay you in the first place they would not ask you to dig that ditch.

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  • ShijeerShijeer Member Posts: 131
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    [Mod Edit]



     

    Well look at it in an extreme case.

    company A spends time money and resources to create this product. They release it, everyone copies it and no one buys it and they can't pay their bills and workers so they go out of business.

    Seems pretty real to me.

    If I make something, write something and I want to make my living doing so I expect to be paid if people want access to it.

    It has nothing to do with scarcity.

    if you don't think it's stealing then look at it another way, you have not compensated them for their work. Work that they did for the sole purpose of getting paid for their effort.

    If you were to be hired to dig a ditch and after doing so the person hiring you said they weren't going to pay you then that would be fine with you? if after the 3rd person did that then you would still be ok? Even though you were hiring your services?

    If  a person does somehting and asks that they be paid for their work then that is their right. If you don't want to pay them then don't avail yoruself of their work.

    Just like you would prefer that if a person was not going to pay you in the first place they would not ask you to dig that ditch.

     

    The above is the reason why the law and courts approach the issue as a 'financial injury to the claimant'. Indeed the only way to approach it, in law copying has -never- equated stealing, its not even a criminal matter, its a silly political trick to further 'criminalize' the activity by naming it in a more aggressive manner, 'you breached copyright' does not have quite the ring to it as ' you STOLE! '.

    However, the utmost stupidity of the situation comes about from the ridiculous assumption that 1 download = 1 lost sale which is completely bogus. The situation further escalates as the justice system often has no working knowledge of torrents for example, you share tiny bits and pieces of the game with thousands of others, so they think that every IP you connected with got a whole copy when in reality you gave them a negligibly tiny piece. I snatch a cookie from the baker and share the crumbs with a 1000 people I meet on the way, am I to pay the baker for a 1000 cookies ? There is no 'you downloaded from me' or 'I downloaded from him' in internet sharing. I downloaded from a 10 000 people over there but none of them gave me a complete game, I shared with 10 000 over here but did not give away 10 000 copies of the game, is whats happening in reality, who do we blame ? everyone ?!

     

    In no way am I saying that pirates should be left unpunished, or companies unrewarded for their work, merely that the current system is unfair to everyone except the game publisher. It should be something like the following : The game weighs 10 gig, I uploaded 30 gig to the net, I therefore should be responsible  for releasing 3 full composite game copies unto the net. Fine me for my copy and 3 others, but not for a fictitious 1000 !

    As far as DRM goes, I will concur with the majority on this one, in the end it only hurts the real legit customers. Ive been following 'the scene' for many years and games, even the newest, biggest ones with all sorts of 'next gen' security measures are cracked pretty much within a day. At this point its completely pointless, conventional game structure and code has way too many holes to poke at and unless companies start rethinking and rebuilding the thing from the ground up, there is no chance. Its something like microsoft, the lazy approach to constantly build new crap on top of the old crap. Games have pretty much the same basic architecture and crackers have been using the same bag of tricks to break games since the mid 90's lol, DRM or no DRM. The games get cracked so fast because pirates know exactly what to do before the game even comes out. They 'uproot' the DRM from the game, almost -never- do they have to actually deal with the DRM itself, it is therefore more often then not, irrelevant. 

    The other option that's just stupid but starting to come up here and there nonetheless is to use some sort of physical device to authenticate the user, but to be honest the scene will find a way to fool the game there is little doubt about that and the paying customers, as usual will have to deal with the annoyance.

    Should the companies give up ? Probably not, I find their pathetic attempts to halt the flood quite entertaining. However I must add that game success is a popularity thing, the more popular the more sales, so even though companies lose some profit from downloads they gain from the continuing commotion and the subsequent sales. Besides, a large chunk of pirates probably download just because they can and would have not bought the game anyways. Seeing as their benchmark to either download or not to is way way way lower then that of the paying customer, it cost nothing I might as well try it. 

    Finally, in my opinion game prices nowadays are just stupid, companies charge what they can get away with I understand but 30+ quid for something they can reproduce ad infinitum is really pushing it.

    - Shijeer 

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,957
    Originally posted by Shijeer


    1, 
     
     
    However, the utmost stupidity of the situation comes about from the ridiculous assumption that 1 download = 1 lost sale which is completely bogus.
     
    2,





     
     
    Finally, in my opinion game prices nowadays are just stupid, companies charge what they can get away with I understand but 30+ quid for something they can reproduce ad infinitum is really pushing it.
     



    - Shijeer 



     

    in the first statement it depends. Technically it is a lost sale in that you have the efforts of their work but they have not received money so no sale was made.

    In the second case, it is their work and time so they can charge whatever they want.

    If you dont' like it dont' buy it and they may or may not decide to lower their prices if enough dont' buy the product.

    If you worked for me and I decided to pay you a fraction of what you should have earned because I decide that you wanted too much are you going to go "ok, it's your decision to decide".

    You might. Or you might say "I want my blintzes" (obscure simpson's reference).

     

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

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  • Arlana75Arlana75 Member Posts: 31
    Originally posted by sepher

    Originally posted by heartless 
    Do you honestly think that DRM in an Xbox 360 is the Live service? It's definitely part of it but it's not all of it. The hardware also plays a role. What do you think modchips do?
    You keep spouting that DRM works. Please show me that DRM on PCs work. You completely ignored my point that DRM does nothing to deter piracy on PC because pirates don't have to deal with it as it is already removed from the games these pirates download. I've downloaded games before. There is usually a folder containing a crack included on the disk image.
    So who exactly is this DRM aimed at? Who is supposed to be stopped by it and how if the people it is aimed at do not have to deal with it?



     

    I keep bring up Live because its the only undefeatable, and thus -effective- DRM on 360, and the reason why piracy is a lot lower on it than it is with PC.

    All you're not saying is that hardware DRM is defeated the same way software DRM is defeated on PC. My point was that software DRM works; as is the case with Xbox 360. So game companies should continue investing in software DRM, as they are.

    And no I haven't ignored you once as far as to whether or not DRM works on PC. I've called it ineffective due to 1 game being pirated for every 1 game or less purchased. But it'd be a lot worse if there was no DRM at all.

    I don't work in absolutes, its YOU that believes DRM has to either absolutely work, or absolutely not work. I keep saying its all about percentages and margins, and deterrents like DRM are going to have varying degrees of success but never 100% completely work no more than they'll 100% completely fail. That success can only be measured in who HASN'T pirated due to that DRM existing, but since those persons haven't pirated, there's nothing to measure.

    What we can do is look at games like MW2 that release on two different platforms with varying degrees of DRM, and make an educated guess that if the PC had as effective DRM as the 360, via a global, centralized Games for Windows - Live like equivalent to Xbox Live, then maybe piracy on PC would be reduced to a similar ratio of only one pirated for every 1 in 5 or 6 games sold.

    And DRM is aimed at pirates of course, whether or not it always works is a different story. And just because you can crack a game, doesn't mean you get the full experience. We've already been over how online play and online perks are out the window for pirates. DRM is what prevents them from having that full experience. DRM works.



     

    Sigh i wasn't going to post but, Live stops nothing but playing online, a modded xbox can play games, can play games over a lan, they just can't play online. so the xbox drm is pontless unless you are one of the people addicted to playing online. I buy all my games but modded an older 360 I had laying around for fun.

    The best DRM around is an MMORPG with a sub, but even they are pirated a bit with private servers.

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Member UncommonPosts: 2,759
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Shijeer


    1, 
     
     
    However, the utmost stupidity of the situation comes about from the ridiculous assumption that 1 download = 1 lost sale which is completely bogus.
     
    2,





     
     
    Finally, in my opinion game prices nowadays are just stupid, companies charge what they can get away with I understand but 30+ quid for something they can reproduce ad infinitum is really pushing it.
     



    - Shijeer 



     

    in the first statement it depends. Technically it is a lost sale in that you have the efforts of their work but they have not received money so no sale was made.

    In the second case, it is their work and time so they can charge whatever you want.

    If you dont' like it dont' buy it and they may or may not decide to lower their prices.

    If you do work for me and I decide to pay you a fraction of what you should have earned because I decide that you wanted too much are you going to go "ok, it's your decision to decide".

    You might. Or you might say "I want my blintzes" (obscure simpson's reference).

     



     

    1: the point hes making is that companies claiming every download is a lost sale is false because in many cases the person downloading it wouldnt have gone out and bought it anyway and are only downloading i tbecause they can get it for free. claiming they lost profit, when that profit would have never existed in the first place throws everything off. That would be like having a carwash and charging $20, and then someone down the road giving free carwashes, and you claiming they stole your customers/profit, when the reality is a lot of those people wouldnt have bothered stopping to get a wash anyway but since it was free they figured what the hell might as well. Sure you might lose some profit overall, but you would have never made as much as you (or these companies) are claiming to have lost in the first place. It applies even more to the gaming industry due to everything either being downloaded (costing the company nothing to "reproduce" their product) or the fact that copying the data from their files and burning it to a disk and sticking some colorful labels and a box on it isnt all that expensive anymore either. which also leads into point 2...

    2: with what i mentioned above about the cost of reproducing their products, basically its cheaper to put out your game now compared to say 10+ years ago because the majority of games are available for digital download rather than a company neding to actually ship millions of units of their product as well as get it into stores, advertising, etc. Yet rather than a cost in providing a product resulting in a decrease in price, they are saving money AND charging more for games than before. But even with this increase in price, we still want our games. We dont tend to complain to loudly about the pricing WHEN a game is actually worth it, but the trend of pumping out unfinished garbage and charging full price for it is just getting worse and worse and more and more people are seeing this and getting fed up with it and choosing to say screw it, im not gonna pay 50-60 for half a game, but i will play that half a game for free.

    Anyway, went off track a bit there, but as far as the paying you for your work thing... thats a joke. do you really think our spending X amount directly translates into X amount in the devs pockets? no, its money in the pockets of CEOs, Executives, etc, but still the same basic salary/hourly pay for the people who actually made the game regardless of wether they sell a game for 40 vs 60, or sell 1 million vs 2 million. Not to mention, we're in no way setting up a contract with the devs to provide work or service to us for a certain amount of money, whatever company they work for does that. In most cases (maybe not in smaller indy companies with just a few employees) that extra profit earned by sales will in no way impact the actual worker bees, good or bad. Last i checked companies dont say "hey you coded this game for us and it sold well so heres a few millio extra bucks" however they do constantly say "hey good job on making this succesful game for us and making me even richer, now go do it again and ill think about giving you a slight raise while i go wipe my ass with $100 bills"

  • ShijeerShijeer Member Posts: 131
    Originally posted by kaiser3282


     
    [...] as far as the paying you for your work thing... thats a joke. do you really think our spending X amount directly translates into X amount in the devs pockets? no, its money in the pockets of CEOs, Executives, etc, but still the same basic salary/hourly pay for the people who actually made the game regardless of wether they sell a game for 40 vs 60, or sell 1 million vs 2 million. [...]

     

    An excellent point often left unmentioned.

     

    The companies and publishers are parasites that grow around creative minds, they do not deserve -all- of the profits, and once you realize how little of the actual cash goes back to the devs, if at all, we need to start thinking of 10 decimal places after the 0. Don't get me wrong, providing a development environment for the devs and actually selling the game globally is no small feat, but be under no illusion of 'hurting' or 'helping' the devs when you choose against acquiring one of their games.



    - Shijeer

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,957
    Originally posted by kaiser3282




     
    1: the point hes making is that companies claiming every download is a lost sale is false because in many cases the person downloading it wouldnt have gone out and bought it anyway and are only downloading i tbecause they can get it for free. etc
    2: with what i mentioned above about the cost of reproducing their products, basically its cheaper to put out your game now compared to say 10+ years ago because the majority of games are available for digital download rather than a company neding to actually ship millions of units of their product as well as get it into stores, advertising, etc./etc
    Anyway, went off track a bit there, but as far as the paying you for your work thing... thats a joke. do you really think our spending X amount directly translates into X amount in the devs pockets? no, its money in the pockets of CEOs, Executives, etc, /etc



     

    1, it sill doesn't matter because they wanted the item and got it. Therefore lost sale. if I write something, let's say a song, and I want people to pay for the ability to listen to it so that I can make a living and continue writing and you download that and say "well, I wouldn't have payed for it but now that I circumvented the process of obtaining it without paying you I want it" then I would say you are telling yourself stories. In the end you wanted it enough to obtain it therefore it has worth. You don't get to decide whether or not you get the right to circumvent that process. The locals laws do. Don't like the local laws? Then change them.

    2, It still doesn't matter. It is not yours to say that because they have decided to charge x for their products that you get to obtain those prodcuts without paying because you don't like it. Great. You don't like it. Don't buy it and don't have access to it. Otherwise, again, you are telling yourself stories and making up excuses so that you don't have to compensate them. And you say that some of these games are unfinihsed garbage. Well, all the more for you not to want it. But you wanted it enough to download it. Therefore it has value. And though the cost to reproduce "might" (you want to make such claims you show me hard numbers from a reliable source) be lower have you considered that the costs to run a business might run higher? Tell me how much your company puts in your 401k and how much they put into your health insurance plan? I bet dollars to donuts it's more than 10 years ago.

    3, as far as the work thing, again, not for you to decide. So I take the risk of running a company, get a larger share in those profits and you feel you have the right to not compensate for the prodcuts you have copied? Not for you to say. Again, it's for your local laws to decide. I have workers, I offer them a salary and they may or may not want to work for me. If I'm smart I will offer a competitive wage ( but that's me). But in the end, if I take the risks I expect to get the rewards. You dont' like the system then go somewhere where they have barter. Or just don't access the prodcuts.

    Because in the end, no matter what my share is, if I decide that it is not worth it to run my business becuase I'm not being compensated enough to make it worth my while, then I shut down my business and do soemthing else. I shut down my business I then put people out of work. that's not good for the economy.

    Whether you like it or not, we live in a society where people work and they get paid. if you are fabulously wealthy and don't need to get paid then more power to you. But for the rest of us working people, we would like to be compensated for the time and effort we put in. Even if we are not reaping a larger share of the millions.

    Have you ever worked a job that net over 6 figures? Do you know what these people's lives are like? As far as I can see, from what I have seen, they can keep it. I'd rather have my modest salary and less of the worry and frustration. But that is between me and my employer.

    You not liking the system doesn't grant you right to access these products.

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • ShijeerShijeer Member Posts: 131
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by kaiser3282




     
    1: the point hes making is that companies claiming every download is a lost sale is false because in many cases the person downloading it wouldnt have gone out and bought it anyway and are only downloading i tbecause they can get it for free. etc
    2: with what i mentioned above about the cost of reproducing their products, basically its cheaper to put out your game now compared to say 10+ years ago because the majority of games are available for digital download rather than a company neding to actually ship millions of units of their product as well as get it into stores, advertising, etc./etc
    Anyway, went off track a bit there, but as far as the paying you for your work thing... thats a joke. do you really think our spending X amount directly translates into X amount in the devs pockets? no, its money in the pockets of CEOs, Executives, etc, /etc



     

    1, it sill doesn't matter because they wanted the item and got it. Therefore lost sale. if I write something, let's say a song, and I want people to pay for the ability to listen to it so that I can make a living and continue writing and you download that and say "well, I wouldn't have payed for it but now that I circumvented the process of obtaining it without paying you I want it" then I would say you are telling yourself stories. In the end you wanted it enough to obtain it therefore it has worth. You don't get to decide whether or not you get the right to circumvent that process. The locals laws do. Don't like the local laws? Then change them.

    2, It still doesn't matter. It is not yours to say that because they have decided to charge x for their products that you get to obtain those prodcuts without paying because you don't like it. Great. You don't like it. Don't buy it and don't have access to it. Otherwise, again, you are telling yourself stories and making up excuses so that you don't have to compensate them. And you say that some of these games are unfinihsed garbage. Well, all the more for you not to want it. But you wanted it enough to download it. Therefore it has value. And though the cost to reproduce "might" (you want to make such claims you show me hard numbers from a reliable source) be lower have you considered that the costs to run a business might run higher? Tell me how much your company puts in your 401k and how much they put into your health insurance plan? I bet dollars to donuts it's more than 10 years ago.

    3, as far as the work thing, again, not for you to decide. So I take the risk of running a company, get a larger share in those profits and you feel you have the right to not compensate for the prodcuts you have copied? Not for you to say. Again, it's for your local laws to decide. I have workers, I offer them a salary and they may or may not want to work for me. If I'm smart I will offer a competitive wage ( but that's me). But in the end, if I take the risks I expect to get the rewards. You dont' like the system then go somewhere where they have barter. Or just don't access the prodcuts.

    Because in the end, no matter what my share is, if I decide that it is not worth it to run my business becuase I'm not being compensated enough to make it worth my while, then I shut down my business and do soemthing else. I shut down my business I then put people out of work. that's not good for the economy.

    Whether you like it or not, we live in a society where people work and they get paid. if you are fabulously wealthy and don't need to get paid then more power to you. But for the rest of us working people, we would like to be compensated for the time and effort we put in. Even if we are not reaping a larger share of the millions.

    Have you ever worked a job that net over 6 figures? Do you know what these people's lives are like? As far as I can see, from what I have seen, they can keep it. I'd rather have my modest salary and less of the worry and frustration. But that is between me and my employer.

    You not liking the system doesn't grant you right to access these products.

     

    Don't be a drone, we are here to discuss, saying 'oh well, don't like it don't buy it' or 'thats just how it is' is not productive in the least, it does not wish away the problems, piracy is there - deal, companies react - how? why? Lets explore the issues.



    I find it cute that you think it not up to your moral standards and are so protective of the entertainment industry parasite enterprises. Also, quite surprised that you are content with how the things are now, well I guess there is little point in arguing with someone who does not see the problems, issues and possibilities, you will simply defend the status quo.

     

    But just for future reference, there is a difference between manufacturing screwdrivers in a factory and selling copies of an intangible product, the latter is much harder to quantify.



    - Shijeer

     

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,957
    Originally posted by Shijeer


     
    Don't be a drone, we are here to discuss, saying 'oh well, don't like it don't buy it' or 'thats just how it is' is not productive in the least, it does not wish away the problems, piracy is there - deal, companies react - how? why? Lets explore the issues.



    I find it cute that you think it not up to your moral standards and are so protective of the entertainment industry parasite enterprises. Also, quite surprised that you are content with how the things are now, well I guess there is little point in arguing with someone who does not see the problems, issues and possibilities, you will simply defend the status quo.
     
    But just for future reference, there is a difference between manufacturing screwdrivers in a factory and selling copies of an intangible product, the latter is much harder to quantify.





    - Shijeer
     



     

    I'm more than confident that I'm not a drone. But me not believing in pirating music, software does not make me one. It means that I believe in the strength of people's work and their rights to their labor. If you have worked and I will assume that you have I would find it hard to believe that you dont' believe in benefitting from the fruits of yoru labor.

    I am more than happy to explore the issues. But you have to present things in a way other than "I don't like it because the man is evil therefore I get to do what I want". Because I'm arguing from the point that as long as these companies work within the law they can charge what they want and distribute that money based on the agreements that they made with their own people. And I as an informed consumer can either buy what they are offering or refuse and then they will have to reconsider how they do business if enough people do this.

    And you know what? In many ways "The man" is evil. But if I don't like things I'm going to work with the system we have in order to make changes. At my age I am wise enough to know that the "young turk" man against the world isn't always going to work and there is a reason we have laws.

    I think it's fair to say that the laws from the 1940's and '50''s are much different now with regards to our citizens so it is fair to say that one can change the laws to better reflect society's wishes. but in this case, society works on the basis that you work and you get paid.

    I dont' believe there is one person on this forum who would disagree or who would involuntarily agree not to reap the rewards of their work.

    You find it cute that I believe in intellectual property laws. Well, let's see... here's something else you can find cute. I write music and have gotten paid for it. I went to school for it, have my degree in it and have worked very hard to hone my craft and get it out there to the people who are interested. I might never get rich (lol, what do I mean "might") but it is a fulfilling life. And I'll be damned if someone will come along and say "you know what... he is published on x label and I think they are a big evil corporation therefore I'm going to download his stuff for free.

    If I give it to you for free then fine. But if I"m supposed to be getting some small royalty then I want to make sure that I get that royalty. And If I decided that I didn't like how the big corporation worked then I would not work with them.

    Now, let's say I decide to go the internet route. I put up a website and sell my music to people. But I charge 20.00 per cd or album download. Then someone comes along and says "you know, he charges too much and I would never buy his stuff but I can get it for free so I think I will. And I will offer it to others for free as well. I think I would have reason to be pissed. Cute heh?

    So as far as selling screw drivers and an "intangible product" I think I more than know what goes into creating this intangible product thank you very much.

     

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  • LogansanLogansan Member UncommonPosts: 45
    Originally posted by tvalentine


    i'm with Sepher. Piracy is lame, and rather then blaming DRM on the companies i blame it on pirates. I've never had an issue with DRM, as long as i can play the game i'm happy.



     

    I'm not taking sides in any way, but I think the problem with this particual type of DRM is that many people simply will not be able to play these game (not legally anyway).

    I was looking forward to buying Settlers 7, but now there is no point as my interenet is not a constant stable connection. And I will never play a crack game (my choice) so I have to miss out on what could be a great game.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,957
    Originally posted by Logansan

    Originally posted by tvalentine


    i'm with Sepher. Piracy is lame, and rather then blaming DRM on the companies i blame it on pirates. I've never had an issue with DRM, as long as i can play the game i'm happy.



     

    I'm not taking sides in any way, but I think the problem with this particual type of DRM is that many people simply will not be able to play these game (not legally anyway).

    I was looking forward to buying Settlers 7, but now there is no point as my interenet is not a constant stable connection. And I will never play a crack game (my choice) so I have to miss out on what could be a great game.



     

    And this is where I would agree. Not only is it horrible that they require you to be online but it's as if they require you to have internet. Suppose you just didn't care about the internet so you didn't have it. Or suppose you lived in an area that didn't have the internet? Or that it was beyond piss poor. Maybe you do?

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  • ShijeerShijeer Member Posts: 131

    Lets say you run a circus sometime during the past century and have a knack for finding remarkably and quite amusingly distorted men, they are at your disposal. For the sight of whom you charge a not so modest fee to all who wish, in fact the price steadily rises every week. Now one day people start snapping pictures of said men and go about to distribute the entertainment to everyone they meet free of charge.

     

    Your reaction ?

     

    Do you demand a fee from everyone who has seen the pictures ? Do you start catching photographers and demand they pay the fee a thousandfold ? Do you beg the local authority to ban cameras ? Do you have everyone wishing to see the men stripsearched as a precaution ? What do you do ?

     

     

    Well, all 4 reactions are being taken in full force when it comes to the entertainment industry and copyright infringement. The circus owners are the dev companies, the freaky men are games, viewers are gamers, photographers are pirates, the camera is the torrent client, the townsfolk are internet users and the stripsearch is of course the DRM.

     

     

    Do you guys still find it reasonable given my little allegory here ? Or do you still fail to see the conundrum ?

     

    I am of course only having fun, despite my writing style none of what I write should be considered as an insult to anyones views. Sovrath your arguments are of course reasonable.    

     

     

    - Shijeer

    image

  • BlackWatchBlackWatch Member UncommonPosts: 972

    Anyone who supports piracy is a jackass. 

    I am guessing that all of you have jobs or are attending school.  How about, the next time pay checks or report cards come around... I get the good grades or pay checks that you all worked for?  And as for you... big deal right?  I mean, you have a job and will get anther pay check in a few weeks OR there's always next semester for you, right?

    image

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Member UncommonPosts: 2,759
    Originally posted by Logansan

    Originally posted by tvalentine


    i'm with Sepher. Piracy is lame, and rather then blaming DRM on the companies i blame it on pirates. I've never had an issue with DRM, as long as i can play the game i'm happy.



     

    I'm not taking sides in any way, but I think the problem with this particual type of DRM is that many people simply will not be able to play these game (not legally anyway).

    I was looking forward to buying Settlers 7, but now there is no point as my interenet is not a constant stable connection. And I will never play a crack game (my choice) so I have to miss out on what could be a great game.



     

    And thats the main problem with this DRM crap & Ubisoft. They are forcing you to have an internet connection in order to play a game which has no online play (or at least during single player modes). I own my PC or console, and i own the game that i purchased. wtf gives them any right to say in order to play this product which you own, on hardware that you own, you must have an internet connection (which is provided by a 3rd party, not them, giving them even less right to tell me i need one) in order to connect to their servers, even though the game itself doesnt require it.

    If you went to a dealership to buy a car, and were told that sure you can drive the car, but the car has special equipment on it that makes it only work if you come get gas from here, or some such nonsense requiring you to be in some way connected to them in order to use your car, you would tell them to go screw themselves wouldnt you? Thats pretty much what Ubisoft is doing. Theres nothing wrong with trying to stop piracy, but there is a limit, and when it starts impacting legitimate customers and preventing them from using a product which they paid in full for, you need to get your head out of your ass and come up with a better solution. I dont get how this bullshit is even legally allowed. I could understand if say Ubisoft made the hardware (like a console) as well as provided our internet service for us, but thats not the case so how can they get away with telling customers that you not only have to pay us for our product, and even though its not required to run the game, you also need go out and pay for internet service from another company? Now sure, i have internet already so it wouldnt be an extra cost, but im not always home, i also game from work or at other peoples houses and play single player games when i cant get online. But because of the DRM its impossible to play MY game when i want to, only when they say its ok, and thats bullshit.

  • darkpath19darkpath19 Member Posts: 51

     while in no way shape or form do I endorse hacking (in fact my particular line of work is ISS), it's extremely foolish of anyone, regardless of funding, backing, or any other factor, to believe any security system unhackable. In fact when designing these things, it's assumed that it WILL be hacked.

    Admittedly I know very little about the Ubisoft case, but this really seems like a dick move for a company to pull, keeping in mind what is in my opinion the number one rule of ISS.. that it WILL be hacked.

  • championsFanchampionsFan Member Posts: 419

    There is currently a conflict in US copyright law.  The long-standing legal tradition of "fair use" allows backup copies for personal use.  But making backups of modern games requires circumventing DRM, which is a violation of the DMCA. 

    The relevance is to the question of whether I can buy games and then crack them to avoid this DRM nonsense.  Fair use says clearly "yes", and the DMCA says clearly "no."  

    For me it's not about getting games for no cost, that is not what I am focusing on, it's about having the guaranteed freedom to play the games that I purchase.   That is why "new DRM cracked" always has the sound of good news to me.  

     

    Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,957
    Originally posted by Shijeer


    Lets say you run a circus sometime during the past century and have a knack for finding remarkably and quite amusingly distorted men, they are at your disposal. For the sight of whom you charge a not so modest fee to all who wish, in fact the price steadily rises every week. Now one day people start snapping pictures of said men and go about to distribute the entertainment to everyone they meet free of charge.
     
    Your reaction ?
     
    Do you demand a fee from everyone who has seen the pictures ? Do you start catching photographers and demand they pay the fee a thousandfold ? Do you beg the local authority to ban cameras ? Do you have everyone who wishes to see the men stripsearched as a precaution ? What do you do ?
     
     
    Well, all 4 reactions are being taken in full force when it comes to the entertainment industry and copyright infringement. The circus owners are the dev companies, the freaky men are games, viewers are gamers, photographers are pirate, the camera is the torrent client, the townsfolk are other users of the net and the stripsearch is of course the DRM.
     
     
    Do you guys still find it reasonable given my little allegory here ? Or do you still fail to see the conundrum ?
     
    I am of course only having fun, despite my writing style none of what I write should be considered as an insult to anyones views. Sovrath your arguments are of course reasonable.    
     
     
    - Shijeer

     

    That's actually a very good point. But I would argue that the experience of seeing these people live transcends the photos. However, the people snapping these pictures are most likely doing so against the wishes of the Carnival owner.

    You see, what I am saying is that any business owner has the right to run their business they way they like. And in the end, I as the consumer get to decide if I believe in taking part in their products or services.

    Because given your above example, what right do the photographers have to take those photos? Especially if there is a sign indicating "no photography of any kind will be permitted".

    As a consumer you have rights. You have the right to get a product that works the way it was advertised. If you feel you are being cheated you have the right to get your money back.

    But to say "you know, I just don't like how they do business so I will avail myself of their product anyways" doesn't seem to work on any ground. You would have to explain why you would have the right to take those pictures. And if your answer is "because I don't agree therefore I get to do what I want" then where does it stop?

    Society has to have laws in order to work. Otherwise nothing we do will have any meaning at all because there is no ground for us to stand upon.

     

     

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    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • jmccarthy14jmccarthy14 Member Posts: 42

     This is a long thread for a moot argument.

     

    Games and media will continue to be digitally produced.

     

    A percentage of the population will continue to copy it.  It may decrease, to that of say Wii and Xbox piracy, but it WILL exist.

     

    And those companies will probably keep trying to prevent it.  And they will fail, unless MPAA or RIAA lobby for a police state.

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  • ShijeerShijeer Member Posts: 131
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Shijeer


    Lets say you run a circus sometime during the past century and have a knack for finding remarkably and quite amusingly distorted men, they are at your disposal. For the sight of whom you charge a not so modest fee to all who wish, in fact the price steadily rises every week. Now one day people start snapping pictures of said men and go about to distribute the entertainment to everyone they meet free of charge.
     
    Your reaction ?
     
    Do you demand a fee from everyone who has seen the pictures ? Do you start catching photographers and demand they pay the fee a thousandfold ? Do you beg the local authority to ban cameras ? Do you have everyone who wishes to see the men stripsearched as a precaution ? What do you do ?
     
     
    Well, all 4 reactions are being taken in full force when it comes to the entertainment industry and copyright infringement. The circus owners are the dev companies, the freaky men are games, viewers are gamers, photographers are pirate, the camera is the torrent client, the townsfolk are other users of the net and the stripsearch is of course the DRM.
     
     
    Do you guys still find it reasonable given my little allegory here ? Or do you still fail to see the conundrum ?
     
    I am of course only having fun, despite my writing style none of what I write should be considered as an insult to anyones views. Sovrath your arguments are of course reasonable.    
     
     
    - Shijeer

     

    That's actually a very good point. But I would argue that the experience of seeing these people live transcends the photos. However, the people snapping these pictures are most likely doing so against the wishes of the Carnival owner.

    You see, what I am saying is that any business owner has the right to run their business they way they like. And in the end, I as the consumer get to decide if I believe in taking part in their products or services.

    Because given your above example, what right do the photographers have to take those photos? Especially if there is a sign indicating "no photography of any kind will be permitted".

    As a consumer you have rights. You have the right to get a product that works the way it was advertised. If you feel you are being cheated you have the right to get your money back.

    But to say "you know, I just don't like how they do business so I will avail myself of their product anyways" doesn't seem to work on any ground. You would have to explain why you would have the right to take those pictures. And if your answer is "because I don't agree therefore I get to do what I want" then where does it stop?

    Society has to have laws in order to work. Otherwise nothing we do will have any meaning at all because there is no ground for us to stand upon.

     

     

     

    We are talking about vast numbers of people and issues that touch upon pretty much every aspect of society, its not a matter of individual choice. Saying or even proving its 'wrong' will accomplish nothing, it is being done more and more, you cannot prosecute a 5th of the country. So we must consider other angles.



    Its just the way things are, piracy is there, you can do nothing to stop it. There are a 1000 different opinions on it but the simple matter is that its a fact and it will stay that way until both sides, the companies and the users will give something. At the moment we have a one sided witch hunt for the pirates and indeed for everyone that does not conform. It is hurting everyones, the customers, the companies, everyone.



    I would argue that the entertainment industry needs to adapt to the present times. They are still clinging to the old business model that's starting to fail in the digital age. Lobbying the government to force people to go against natural progress of sharing more information more freely. Its easier to download so people do, if companies offered affordable internet services I am sure people, even pirates would conform. Companies like Spotify and last.fm are a good step in the music industry, gaming needs to follow suit. It is not reasonable to expect the government, the law to support and try to save a failing business, its their own fault !



    Yes, I agree we have no right to tell companies how to conduct business and do have a consumer choice to either partake in their services or not. But surely the companies likewise have no right to enforce their outdated business practices on us ! Moving and manipulating the whole system to maintain their business model despite obvious opposition. In a market economy piracy, the complaints, the lost sales are the sign that the companies are not doing something right, -they- should be under pressure to adapt to the market, not the consumers to the companies ! Imagine Mcdonalds suddenly throwing a fit over people making their own hamburgers at home, calling supermarekets to court, crying lost sales when someone eats a home-made burger etc. lobbying the government to ban round buns lol

     

    Piracy eh ? Well how can we use that to our advantage, what does it say ? what do they want ? Not, to cry -theft- and go on a crusade of hurting your potential and current customers. 



     

    - Shijeer

     

     

     

    image

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