For me, whether this game become's something I'll play a lot or not will depend upon it's item shop & whether the game design is heavily influenced & dependant upon it. (read: ruined) I'm tired of F2P games giving you a gimped game that you need the item shop to "ungimp" it.
Explain gimping the game through the cash shop?
I mean they need to make money, right?
I prefer the DDO style of F2p where i have to unlock races,classes and zones through the shop. Would that be considered gimping the game to you?
If so then you only want a totally free game without supporting the dev and thats bullshit.
Unlocking content through the shop isn't the same as fundamentally borking the gameplay, and the item shop being the band-aid to said borked gameplay.
DDO is pretty much the exception to what I'm saying, their gameplay is sound, you open up new areas of the game with the shop, new classes, new races, but the core game is solid & not subject to needing the item shop in order to be enjoyable, that sadly is not the case for most F2P games, hence my initial post being worded that way.
Just for info I spent quite a sum of money on DDO & even in RoM but in RoM is was apparent that unless you sink money (and quite a lot of it) in you'll hit a "wall" where you can't go any further in the game at a "reasonable pace" unless you want to grind exhorbitantly, because the higher up you go the more the gameplay gets altered to depend on the shop, DDO just doesn't do that, hence it's the exception. RoM's design is your basic Pyramid scheme, other F2P use other types of devices but none besides DDO yet leave the core gameplay untouched.
Im interested in this title. And Skuz explains the difference well, between a shallow and game-play cheapening item shop, and one that doesn't delve into game-play stat-enhancing items. I hope for the best.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
BP is dead to me, I just read this - it pretty much confirms the worst of F2P as far as I am concerned.
Over at Massively, an interview with Falko Böcker:
Böcker made it clear that Black Prophecy was designed to be a free-to-play game from the ground up, and they're quite enthusiastic about this business model.
"We want the free gameplay to be really, really good," Böcker said. "When you come into the game, you should enjoy it from the beginning, if you pay or not. And we want players to experience everything in the game, whether they're paying or not. There will be no weapon you can't unlock if you don't pay. It might take you longer to get to that point, but all of the content in the game will be free."
He went on to say that the item shop will offer "niceties" such as decals, boosts in getting XP and gear that you want right here and now instead of spending a lot of time getting it.
The key words highlighted above. This will be a cheesy F2P action game where you can grind out incessantly the things you need or you buy them. Based on the whole of the interview it is doubtful the game will really even be an MMO, it is fully instanced with 150 to 200 people in public areas and loading to private combat encounters from there. PvP seems to be arena based and totally contrived. Economy and crafting are minimal. Also, the talk of building up adrenaline to execute a barrel roll seems a terrible contrast to an action style gameplay where player ability to maneuver his own barrel roll should be the only way to do such a move.
BP is just a cheesy grind or pay F2P and from the article it doesn't seem a very credible MMO even.
P2P games have gotten worse in my opinion, they can be just as bad as the low end F2P games. Take STO for example, that is the most instanced, content lacking game I have seen yet and you pay monthly for it plus pay more for extra stuff in their c-store...
Guild wars is F2P, I think its a great game and I expect Guildwars2 to be even better. Black Prophecy has recently caught my attention just cuz its known to be F2P and it looks like it may have more content and quality than STO. If that is the case then I doubt anyone has much to lose when trying it.
Guild Wars is not F2P - it just doesn't have a subscription, you still have to buy the box for the original game and any expansions you want to access.
Yes, if you put it that way then Black Prophecy is not really F2P either (since you can buy an Xp booster pack to save time).
???
How is it contestable that a game like Guild Wars is not free to play since you have to buy the retail box to play at all? F2P games are FREE TO PLAY, no cost to get the game and no cost to play save the 'optional' items or content sold through the cash shop. Guild Wars is subscription free, just like Call of Duty or Mass Effect or any other game save subscription MMOs (buy the box and pay monthly for access) and F2P MMOs (which only have the cash shop costs).
I would agree with your definition of F2P, but I have not yet found a really good MMO that also fits what you said so I still think GW is the closest game to it.
GW does have an initial retail price without subscription. With a one-off payment I consider that normal like any other typical game I buy.
BP is planning to have a number of expansions which you may have to pay for when u want, just like GW. Eventually that is going to make the free version of this game seem limited too. Unless they decide to make the expnasions free, which i doubt.
The comments I quoted before suggest a traditional F2P model and not a GW or DDO type hybrid where you play the whole of the game for free and simply by region or content access. The article mentioned specifically the lie of everything is attainable for free you can just buy if you want it now and they mention specifically item specific micro transactions. So while I would agree that a "F2P" game where you buy game parts (i.e. buy content packs or regional access) is not so bad in terms of F2P issues BP is not going this route, BP is going to be a cash shop item mall model.
Wow, been waiting a long time for this game. Now with F2P comes a bit of concern, but i'll wait and see how it all pans out before i decide. For now, back to EVE...
Yes, F2P games have lacked the content and "polished" feel along with ridiculous pricing. But this game looks too good to pass up to at least try it.
Who knows, maybe they will have the perfect F2P model where most are happy. As many of you know, you can please most of the people most of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time so there will be those who bitch and moan no matter what model they use. To those who gripe just to be heard, go have fun somewhere else ( or gripe in your case)
The double whammy of recent news—micro-transactions business model and "mostly instanced based, [with] several static zones that players will gather in"—has greatly soured my interest in this game.
Fortunately, Jumpgate Evolution recently broke their long silence and announced a shift away from instanced PvP and a renewed focus on open-world PvP (battlespace will now serve only as a training simulator and not for advancement or rewards).
I've gone from straddling the fence between both titles to squarely in NetDevil's pasture.
For me, whether this game become's something I'll play a lot or not will depend upon it's item shop & whether the game design is heavily influenced & dependant upon it. (read: ruined)
I'm tired of F2P games giving you a gimped game that you need the item shop to "ungimp" it.
Explain gimping the game through the cash shop?
I mean they need to make money, right?
I prefer the DDO style of F2p where i have to unlock races,classes and zones through the shop. Would that be considered gimping the game to you?
If so then you only want a totally free game without supporting the dev and thats bullshit.
No, DDO does not gimp you through the shop because you can unlock that content without paying a dime with favor rewards ingame. GImping with an item shop is when you cannot get an important item without having to buy it.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
For me, whether this game become's something I'll play a lot or not will depend upon it's item shop & whether the game design is heavily influenced & dependant upon it. (read: ruined)
I'm tired of F2P games giving you a gimped game that you need the item shop to "ungimp" it.
Explain gimping the game through the cash shop?
I mean they need to make money, right?
I prefer the DDO style of F2p where i have to unlock races,classes and zones through the shop. Would that be considered gimping the game to you?
If so then you only want a totally free game without supporting the dev and thats bullshit.
No, DDO does not gimp you through the shop because you can unlock that content without paying a dime with favor rewards ingame. GImping with an item shop is when you cannot get an important item without having to buy it.
DDO goes far further over the line in this regard than people lead on. Yes, you cannot buy all items in the store but many key, rare items can be bought and are very pricey.
For me, whether this game become's something I'll play a lot or not will depend upon it's item shop & whether the game design is heavily influenced & dependant upon it. (read: ruined)
I'm tired of F2P games giving you a gimped game that you need the item shop to "ungimp" it.
Explain gimping the game through the cash shop?
I mean they need to make money, right?
I prefer the DDO style of F2p where i have to unlock races,classes and zones through the shop. Would that be considered gimping the game to you?
If so then you only want a totally free game without supporting the dev and thats bullshit.
No, DDO does not gimp you through the shop because you can unlock that content without paying a dime with favor rewards ingame. GImping with an item shop is when you cannot get an important item without having to buy it.
DDO goes far further over the line in this regard than people lead on. Yes, you cannot buy all items in the store but many key, rare items can be bought and are very pricey.
I agree with Smith on cash shops, so I am sad to see BP go this way. it was a game i was considering playing.
RMT cash shops in game are a dishonest and exploitative revenue model that that only in the cold hard truth of the fact benefits only the corperation and not gameplay or the player.
The only reason anyone thinks otherwise is if they are too lazy to play the actual game, or they are just too naive to see the bigger picture.
proft isnt the same as profiteering, a lot of people in this thread should remember that.
proft isnt the same as profiteering, a lot of people in this thread should remember that.
I think, at least for some developers, it isn't an issue of evil doing profit seeking or anything like that. It is just the unavoidable result of selling instant gratification (rmt) verses a total gaming experience (sub). You just cannot end up with the same kind of game selling the whole package via a sub as when your business is about creating need and selling a solution to that need in the cash shop. This is the key element - rmt/cash shop games must be developed to create that need so they become about something other than the general gameplay experience they become about designing the need and ways to get you to satisfy said need in the cash shop.
This is the key element - rmt/cash shop games must be developed to create that need so they become about something other than the general gameplay experience they become about designing the need and ways to get you to satisfy said need in the cash shop.
This perception leads many away from F2P games that they might enjoy. The best F2P games (some in their 8th year) do not create a need that can only be filled by spending real $$ through the CS, they use the CS to entice people with instant gratification. When done right the CS then becomes a way to buy the hours you would have spent getting the item in-game rather than a pay-to-win facilitator.
I'm not trying to say BP will be perfect in this regard, I'm just saying you shouldn't get discouraged by their F2P model because it could be a good thing. The major keys to this being a success are having a vast selection of CS items, allowing those to be sold or traded in-game, giving those items a high durability or usage time (should provide more than a month of usage), and not providing CS exclusive items that give advantages other than cosmetic or travel based enhancements (get you from A to B faster).
This is the key element - rmt/cash shop games must be developed to create that need so they become about something other than the general gameplay experience they become about designing the need and ways to get you to satisfy said need in the cash shop.
This perception leads many away from F2P games that they might enjoy. The best F2P games (some in their 8th year) do not create a need that can only be filled by spending real $$ through the CS, they use the CS to entice people with instant gratification. When done right the CS then becomes a way to buy the hours you would have spent getting the item in-game rather than a pay-to-win facilitator.
I'm not trying to say BP will be perfect in this regard, I'm just saying you shouldn't get discouraged by their F2P model because it could be a good thing. The major keys to this being a success are having a vast selection of CS items, allowing those to be sold or traded in-game, giving those items a high durability or usage time (should provide more than a month of usage), and not providing CS exclusive items that give advantages other than cosmetic or travel based enhancements (get you from A to B faster).
You make my point. A CS game sells convenience if not outright advantage and I agree there are some at both ends of that spectrum (convenience/advantage). However, my point goes beyond whether they are selling convenience or advantage to the design they have to follow or suffer financial losses and possible failure. In selling the more innocent convenience, rather than the more obviously detrimental advantage, the developers are incentivized to design the game such that getting the things you normally get through playing more and more inconvenient. So yeah, you can play your way to that mount or potion or level but the clear incentive to developers is to pad and pad the time that takes to steer people to buying it now rather than grinding it out. Admittingly, this is less in yoru face offensive and game breaking than selling advantages outright but it is no less destructive to the underlying gameplay in the end. As I said, RMT/cash shop means developers are not designing a game to be fun but rather designing a game to generate micro purchases and that disconnect is what is dangerous to the genre.
As I said, RMT/cash shop means developers are not designing a game to be fun but rather designing a game to generate micro purchases and that disconnect is what is dangerous to the genre.
But I am not making your point at all. I'm saying the developer doesn't need to alter game design in any way. MMORPGs are already difficult when it comes to advancement and item aquisition. This presents a challenge to players which can be enjoyable to overcome depending on how diverse the quest/pve/pvp is and how difficult it is to obtain items/$$. In a P2P model the developers walk a fine line between offering no challange and making the players frustrated. With F2P you open your design to allow a more versitile experience without endagering the revenue model because the CS can be adjusted to balance the game rather than having to change the game.
The CS caters to those who have a "I need it now" mentality, excluding the various reason why and therefore the design changes you seem to think it requires. They do not have to create the need because it already exists in MMOs, both F2P and P2P. Google "WoW gold" for examples of third parties tailored to meet this need in P2P MMOs.
Add the revenue from all those third parties and adjust for convinience, lack of prohibition, confidence in purchase, and even more immediate gratification (no waiting on delivery boy) and you have a better revenue model than P2P in most cases, even with a percentage of the player base not spending a dime.
As I said, RMT/cash shop means developers are not designing a game to be fun but rather designing a game to generate micro purchases and that disconnect is what is dangerous to the genre.
But I am not making your point at all. I'm saying the developer doesn't need to alter game design in any way. MMORPGs are already difficult when it comes to advancement and item aquisition. This presents a challenge to players which can be enjoyable to overcome depending on how diverse the quest/pve/pvp is and how difficult it is to obtain items/$$.
And there is how you make my point - the challenge of the time and effort is part of the game's allure. So to the extent that this is true the nature of the game deters people from buying even convenience items - so developers are incentivized to extend the curve of time and effort making it not part of the enjoyable challenge people play for but a mindless grind they are willing to spend money to avoid. This is what I am referring to about the necessary disconnect between what a developer is designing and what people are playing.
Consider a bad example, just mentioning it in a cursory way to highlight my point on this (I don't amintain the anology is perfect in detail). Take movies - you buy the ticket and go watch. Ticket prices do not vary according to the movies running time, all movies at a theater cost the same whether they are 90 minutes or 2+ hours. What if you paid X dollars per half hour though? How long would it take before movies got longer and longer and longer in response to the incentive to get more money from a longer movie? Same type of thing here - devs got incentive even selling just convenience items to up the grind and break the risk/reard and challenge mechanics that make up these games and if they do not they lose money.
Eh, I'm on the wall about this game now. I normally am not a fan of sub fees, save for a select few games that were good enough in my opinion to warrant them. As mentioned by AgtSmith, Guild Wars did it right. With DDO, (Maybe I didn't play enough) but I don't like the idea of having to pay to access a new landmass or race or what have you. BP seemed a game that I would willingly pay a sub fee for, that being said, I will give the F2P model a chance when it goes public. I don't care that player12 can buy XP boosts and level faster than me in his new cash shop ship with pretty cash shop paint, IF I am enjoying the gameplay. I care about MY character, not everyone else's.
I guess my bottom line is, I could care less if other players abuse the cash shop, or if the publisher is trying to force my wallet. if I don't want to spend money in the cash shop, I won't. If I enjoy the general gameplay, then I will play the game, and take the "long way" to have nice things. Shouldn't be such a chore if gameplay is enjoyable.
I guess my bottom line is, I could care less if other players abuse the cash shop, or if the publisher is trying to force my wallet. if I don't want to spend money in the cash shop, I won't. If I enjoy the general gameplay, then I will play the game, and take the "long way" to have nice things. Shouldn't be such a chore if gameplay is enjoyable.
A perfectly rasonable way to look at it but you have to keep in mind, if running around nto spending money is fun and entertaining then the DEVs are losing money and the incentive exists to lower the fun to encourage cash shop usage. So while it is reasonable to say if I can have fun for free I will play, the hook to that is that they will keep moving the line to drive sales, not to mention that the entire model is more of a bait and switch trying to lure you in wiht the offer of free play only to hook you and get you to spend.
For me, whether this game become's something I'll play a lot or not will depend upon it's item shop & whether the game design is heavily influenced & dependant upon it. (read: ruined)
I'm tired of F2P games giving you a gimped game that you need the item shop to "ungimp" it.
Explain gimping the game through the cash shop?
I mean they need to make money, right?
I prefer the DDO style of F2p where i have to unlock races,classes and zones through the shop. Would that be considered gimping the game to you?
If so then you only want a totally free game without supporting the dev and thats bullshit.
I prefer DDO's style of F2P also. Because I don't have to use the shop to unlock content, I can unlock it ingame with favor. So I can play the entire game totally free. So in this case, what you call "bullshit", I call true F2P.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
For me, whether this game become's something I'll play a lot or not will depend upon it's item shop & whether the game design is heavily influenced & dependant upon it. (read: ruined)
I'm tired of F2P games giving you a gimped game that you need the item shop to "ungimp" it.
Explain gimping the game through the cash shop?
I mean they need to make money, right?
I prefer the DDO style of F2p where i have to unlock races,classes and zones through the shop. Would that be considered gimping the game to you?
If so then you only want a totally free game without supporting the dev and thats bullshit.
I prefer DDO's style of F2P also. Because I don't have to use the shop to unlock content, I can unlock it ingame with favor. So I can play the entire game totally free. So in this case, what you call "bullshit", I call true F2P.
F2P if you are willing to jump through massive hoops and put up with tons of built in annoyances is valid, I suppose, I just think it is inaccurate to call it F2P as you pay with time, annoyance, and grind. I suppose that is better than cash for those unwilling to pay cash for a sub or even spend cash in the item shop, but I think the people willing to do this are few and far between so the idea that any of these games are really F2P is ridiculous to the bulk of the playerbase. And before you contest this ascertion, if it where not a fact then F2P MMOs would go out of business - so I content that there are no F2P MMOs. The question is wether you buy the game a' la carte or you buy a sub and get full access (or worst case, you do both).
Comments
Explain gimping the game through the cash shop?
I mean they need to make money, right?
I prefer the DDO style of F2p where i have to unlock races,classes and zones through the shop. Would that be considered gimping the game to you?
If so then you only want a totally free game without supporting the dev and thats bullshit.
Unlocking content through the shop isn't the same as fundamentally borking the gameplay, and the item shop being the band-aid to said borked gameplay.
DDO is pretty much the exception to what I'm saying, their gameplay is sound, you open up new areas of the game with the shop, new classes, new races, but the core game is solid & not subject to needing the item shop in order to be enjoyable, that sadly is not the case for most F2P games, hence my initial post being worded that way.
Just for info I spent quite a sum of money on DDO & even in RoM but in RoM is was apparent that unless you sink money (and quite a lot of it) in you'll hit a "wall" where you can't go any further in the game at a "reasonable pace" unless you want to grind exhorbitantly, because the higher up you go the more the gameplay gets altered to depend on the shop, DDO just doesn't do that, hence it's the exception. RoM's design is your basic Pyramid scheme, other F2P use other types of devices but none besides DDO yet leave the core gameplay untouched.
Im interested in this title. And Skuz explains the difference well, between a shallow and game-play cheapening item shop, and one that doesn't delve into game-play stat-enhancing items. I hope for the best.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
Here is to hoping for the best,. I will try the game when it comes out. Still looks interesting.
BP is dead to me, I just read this - it pretty much confirms the worst of F2P as far as I am concerned.
Over at Massively, an interview with Falko Böcker:
Böcker made it clear that Black Prophecy was designed to be a free-to-play game from the ground up, and they're quite enthusiastic about this business model.
"We want the free gameplay to be really, really good," Böcker said. "When you come into the game, you should enjoy it from the beginning, if you pay or not. And we want players to experience everything in the game, whether they're paying or not. There will be no weapon you can't unlock if you don't pay. It might take you longer to get to that point, but all of the content in the game will be free."
He went on to say that the item shop will offer "niceties" such as decals, boosts in getting XP and gear that you want right here and now instead of spending a lot of time getting it.
The key words highlighted above. This will be a cheesy F2P action game where you can grind out incessantly the things you need or you buy them. Based on the whole of the interview it is doubtful the game will really even be an MMO, it is fully instanced with 150 to 200 people in public areas and loading to private combat encounters from there. PvP seems to be arena based and totally contrived. Economy and crafting are minimal. Also, the talk of building up adrenaline to execute a barrel roll seems a terrible contrast to an action style gameplay where player ability to maneuver his own barrel roll should be the only way to do such a move.
BP is just a cheesy grind or pay F2P and from the article it doesn't seem a very credible MMO even.
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P2P games have gotten worse in my opinion, they can be just as bad as the low end F2P games. Take STO for example, that is the most instanced, content lacking game I have seen yet and you pay monthly for it plus pay more for extra stuff in their c-store...
Guild wars is F2P, I think its a great game and I expect Guildwars2 to be even better. Black Prophecy has recently caught my attention just cuz its known to be F2P and it looks like it may have more content and quality than STO. If that is the case then I doubt anyone has much to lose when trying it.
Guild Wars is not F2P - it just doesn't have a subscription, you still have to buy the box for the original game and any expansions you want to access.
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Yes, if you put it that way then Black Prophecy is not really F2P either (since you can buy an Xp booster pack to save time).
???
How is it contestable that a game like Guild Wars is not free to play since you have to buy the retail box to play at all? F2P games are FREE TO PLAY, no cost to get the game and no cost to play save the 'optional' items or content sold through the cash shop. Guild Wars is subscription free, just like Call of Duty or Mass Effect or any other game save subscription MMOs (buy the box and pay monthly for access) and F2P MMOs (which only have the cash shop costs).
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I would agree with your definition of F2P, but I have not yet found a really good MMO that also fits what you said so I still think GW is the closest game to it.
GW does have an initial retail price without subscription. With a one-off payment I consider that normal like any other typical game I buy.
BP is planning to have a number of expansions which you may have to pay for when u want, just like GW. Eventually that is going to make the free version of this game seem limited too. Unless they decide to make the expnasions free, which i doubt.
(edited: just a typo)
The comments I quoted before suggest a traditional F2P model and not a GW or DDO type hybrid where you play the whole of the game for free and simply by region or content access. The article mentioned specifically the lie of everything is attainable for free you can just buy if you want it now and they mention specifically item specific micro transactions. So while I would agree that a "F2P" game where you buy game parts (i.e. buy content packs or regional access) is not so bad in terms of F2P issues BP is not going this route, BP is going to be a cash shop item mall model.
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Yes, F2P games have lacked the content and "polished" feel along with ridiculous pricing. But this game looks too good to pass up to at least try it.
Who knows, maybe they will have the perfect F2P model where most are happy. As many of you know, you can please most of the people most of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time so there will be those who bitch and moan no matter what model they use. To those who gripe just to be heard, go have fun somewhere else ( or gripe in your case)
The double whammy of recent news—micro-transactions business model and "mostly instanced based, [with] several static zones that players will gather in"—has greatly soured my interest in this game.
Fortunately, Jumpgate Evolution recently broke their long silence and announced a shift away from instanced PvP and a renewed focus on open-world PvP (battlespace will now serve only as a training simulator and not for advancement or rewards).
I've gone from straddling the fence between both titles to squarely in NetDevil's pasture.
Ya this game was one I was really looking forward to........
I'll pay a monthly fee........just make the damn game as was promised.
F2P = fail
This is great. I won't have time to play it enough to worth a $15 sub.
Now i can play a bit here and there for free. Definitely a postiive for me.
No, DDO does not gimp you through the shop because you can unlock that content without paying a dime with favor rewards ingame. GImping with an item shop is when you cannot get an important item without having to buy it.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
DDO goes far further over the line in this regard than people lead on. Yes, you cannot buy all items in the store but many key, rare items can be bought and are very pricey.
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I agree with Smith on cash shops, so I am sad to see BP go this way. it was a game i was considering playing.
RMT cash shops in game are a dishonest and exploitative revenue model that that only in the cold hard truth of the fact benefits only the corperation and not gameplay or the player.
The only reason anyone thinks otherwise is if they are too lazy to play the actual game, or they are just too naive to see the bigger picture.
proft isnt the same as profiteering, a lot of people in this thread should remember that.
I think, at least for some developers, it isn't an issue of evil doing profit seeking or anything like that. It is just the unavoidable result of selling instant gratification (rmt) verses a total gaming experience (sub). You just cannot end up with the same kind of game selling the whole package via a sub as when your business is about creating need and selling a solution to that need in the cash shop. This is the key element - rmt/cash shop games must be developed to create that need so they become about something other than the general gameplay experience they become about designing the need and ways to get you to satisfy said need in the cash shop.
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This perception leads many away from F2P games that they might enjoy. The best F2P games (some in their 8th year) do not create a need that can only be filled by spending real $$ through the CS, they use the CS to entice people with instant gratification. When done right the CS then becomes a way to buy the hours you would have spent getting the item in-game rather than a pay-to-win facilitator.
I'm not trying to say BP will be perfect in this regard, I'm just saying you shouldn't get discouraged by their F2P model because it could be a good thing. The major keys to this being a success are having a vast selection of CS items, allowing those to be sold or traded in-game, giving those items a high durability or usage time (should provide more than a month of usage), and not providing CS exclusive items that give advantages other than cosmetic or travel based enhancements (get you from A to B faster).
-Greater Force
You make my point. A CS game sells convenience if not outright advantage and I agree there are some at both ends of that spectrum (convenience/advantage). However, my point goes beyond whether they are selling convenience or advantage to the design they have to follow or suffer financial losses and possible failure. In selling the more innocent convenience, rather than the more obviously detrimental advantage, the developers are incentivized to design the game such that getting the things you normally get through playing more and more inconvenient. So yeah, you can play your way to that mount or potion or level but the clear incentive to developers is to pad and pad the time that takes to steer people to buying it now rather than grinding it out. Admittingly, this is less in yoru face offensive and game breaking than selling advantages outright but it is no less destructive to the underlying gameplay in the end. As I said, RMT/cash shop means developers are not designing a game to be fun but rather designing a game to generate micro purchases and that disconnect is what is dangerous to the genre.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
But I am not making your point at all. I'm saying the developer doesn't need to alter game design in any way. MMORPGs are already difficult when it comes to advancement and item aquisition. This presents a challenge to players which can be enjoyable to overcome depending on how diverse the quest/pve/pvp is and how difficult it is to obtain items/$$. In a P2P model the developers walk a fine line between offering no challange and making the players frustrated. With F2P you open your design to allow a more versitile experience without endagering the revenue model because the CS can be adjusted to balance the game rather than having to change the game.
The CS caters to those who have a "I need it now" mentality, excluding the various reason why and therefore the design changes you seem to think it requires. They do not have to create the need because it already exists in MMOs, both F2P and P2P. Google "WoW gold" for examples of third parties tailored to meet this need in P2P MMOs.
Add the revenue from all those third parties and adjust for convinience, lack of prohibition, confidence in purchase, and even more immediate gratification (no waiting on delivery boy) and you have a better revenue model than P2P in most cases, even with a percentage of the player base not spending a dime.
-Greater Force
And there is how you make my point - the challenge of the time and effort is part of the game's allure. So to the extent that this is true the nature of the game deters people from buying even convenience items - so developers are incentivized to extend the curve of time and effort making it not part of the enjoyable challenge people play for but a mindless grind they are willing to spend money to avoid. This is what I am referring to about the necessary disconnect between what a developer is designing and what people are playing.
Consider a bad example, just mentioning it in a cursory way to highlight my point on this (I don't amintain the anology is perfect in detail). Take movies - you buy the ticket and go watch. Ticket prices do not vary according to the movies running time, all movies at a theater cost the same whether they are 90 minutes or 2+ hours. What if you paid X dollars per half hour though? How long would it take before movies got longer and longer and longer in response to the incentive to get more money from a longer movie? Same type of thing here - devs got incentive even selling just convenience items to up the grind and break the risk/reard and challenge mechanics that make up these games and if they do not they lose money.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
Eh, I'm on the wall about this game now. I normally am not a fan of sub fees, save for a select few games that were good enough in my opinion to warrant them. As mentioned by AgtSmith, Guild Wars did it right. With DDO, (Maybe I didn't play enough) but I don't like the idea of having to pay to access a new landmass or race or what have you. BP seemed a game that I would willingly pay a sub fee for, that being said, I will give the F2P model a chance when it goes public. I don't care that player12 can buy XP boosts and level faster than me in his new cash shop ship with pretty cash shop paint, IF I am enjoying the gameplay. I care about MY character, not everyone else's.
I guess my bottom line is, I could care less if other players abuse the cash shop, or if the publisher is trying to force my wallet. if I don't want to spend money in the cash shop, I won't. If I enjoy the general gameplay, then I will play the game, and take the "long way" to have nice things. Shouldn't be such a chore if gameplay is enjoyable.
Total MMOs played: 274|Enjoyed: 9. >:|
A perfectly rasonable way to look at it but you have to keep in mind, if running around nto spending money is fun and entertaining then the DEVs are losing money and the incentive exists to lower the fun to encourage cash shop usage. So while it is reasonable to say if I can have fun for free I will play, the hook to that is that they will keep moving the line to drive sales, not to mention that the entire model is more of a bait and switch trying to lure you in wiht the offer of free play only to hook you and get you to spend.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
I prefer DDO's style of F2P also. Because I don't have to use the shop to unlock content, I can unlock it ingame with favor. So I can play the entire game totally free. So in this case, what you call "bullshit", I call true F2P.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
F2P if you are willing to jump through massive hoops and put up with tons of built in annoyances is valid, I suppose, I just think it is inaccurate to call it F2P as you pay with time, annoyance, and grind. I suppose that is better than cash for those unwilling to pay cash for a sub or even spend cash in the item shop, but I think the people willing to do this are few and far between so the idea that any of these games are really F2P is ridiculous to the bulk of the playerbase. And before you contest this ascertion, if it where not a fact then F2P MMOs would go out of business - so I content that there are no F2P MMOs. The question is wether you buy the game a' la carte or you buy a sub and get full access (or worst case, you do both).
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD