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The real reason why MMORPGs won't ever be successful on consoles.
Jimmy_Scythe
Member CommonPosts: 3,586
So after geting my ass repeatedly handed to me in League of Legends, I decided it might be time to go check out the forums and the wiki. With the Strategy forum in one tab and the wiki in the other, I looked up a thread concerning tips on the champion I had been using. Less than a page into the thread it dawned on me, LoL was all about the meta game. In fact, most PC exclusive games were like this.
Now there's nothing wrong with metagaming. Some of the greatest games ever made revolve around the meta game. Magic: The Gathering springs directly to mind. Sim racing games, certain JRPGs and sports management games also fit this category. There isn't anything inherently wrong with a good meta game. But this does beg the question: Why are so many meta games on the PC?
going back to LoL for a minute. The game itself is really something of a grind. You defend one of the three lanes on the map, leveling up and returning to base periodically to gear up. The actual game between players is one of controlling space and maneuvering. The meta game however, boils down to knowing your champions role and gearing up in a way that maximizes that character's advantages or nullifies your opponent. It's all reading, memorization and the most basic of math. This is different from a racing sim where you'll make small adjustments, test drive, make some more adjustments, and so on until you have a build that fits your driving style while maximizing the vehicles power, or a sports games where you can build your team out of your favorite players. In both instances, skill can overcome statistical advantages. In LoL, as well as most MMORPGs, once you're behind statistically, you're likely going to remain behind.
So why are PC gamers more open to this kind of straight number stacking, spread sheet gameplay than their console counterparts? It isn't because PC gamers are smarter. Anyone can read a table, add and tell if a number is higher than another. Also, most JRPGs are on consoles and they are built completely on this kind of crap. No, there has to be something about PC gaming culture that is different. And I think I know what it is.
Show of hands, how many of you built your own computer? Wow! There certainly are a lot of you. How many of you have simply upgraded a computer that you bought off the shelf? Really? That is a big number. Tell me something: What was the experience of building or upgrading your computer like? Let me see if I can break this down:
1) You determined what game you wanted to play.
2) You determined what parts you needed.
3) You looked at the money you had to spend and then went shopping for parts.
4) You made a list of possible parts, excluding those parts that wouldn't work with any of the parts.
5) You got the parts and made the computer.
Now take a look at any PC exclusive genre, there are only three, and notice how their meta game fits in with that process. PC gamers are all about twinking and fussing with technology. Like motorheads. If a game can capture the same feelings and processes that go into dicking with computer hardware, then it's going to be huge on the PC. Everything else will be considered "dumbed down" or too console by PC gamers.
You see, it isn't because consoles can't handle MMORPGs. UO came out in 1998 and Everquest came out in 1999. Modern consoles can easily handle the processes that MMORPGs require and then some. The problem with MMORPGs on consoles is that console gamers, who aren't sports fanatics, actually want to play games rather than fuss around with a giant spread sheet and compare numbers all day.
As long as MMORPGs are COMPLETELY about stats, they will remain a PC gaming phenomenon. As soon as someone makes an MMORPG that requires actual skill or strategy, then we'll probably see knock offs of that game pop up on consoles like dandelions. Not unlike all the Diku games that are polluting the interwebs now.
Comments
Cool story bra!
I know I don't have a cool picture to go with it, but who cares...
edit: Oh! Maybe you're missing the point of what makes an RPG too. Have fun with your nonRPG's twitch game though.
if this were a few years ago id probably agree with you, but nowadays theres plenty of PC gamers who also have consoles for games exclusive to consoles, or simply preferring to play certain game types on it. Not only that but theres also twitch based MMORPGs which tend to be at least slightly more skill based like a FPS rather than being all about stats. Theres also been several released on consoles, though not exclusively on them such as FFXI and PSU. Both games were released for XBOX, Playstation, and PC and were at least somewhat similar in popularity across consoles and PC. Its more a matter of actually coming out with a new MMORPG worth playing, wether it be on PC or Console, but unfortunately theres a big issue with that even on the PC lately.
Also, there was the game Two Worlds which was pretty similar to Oblivion in a lot of ways, but unfortunately they completely killed anything to do with online play by making it basically instanced (just a few players loading up into 1 zone/map to play coop or against eachother) and the pvp side of it was basically choosing to play pvp, and then picking a generic class and fighting people with it rather than using an actual customized character with any sort of progression. Basically they made it part RPG on the coop side and part FPS on the pvp side. If they had actually allowed the use of your characters for pvp and expanded it to an actual worled instead of instanced lobby type play it could have been pretty amazing.
While I agree with a great deal of what you mention, I should point out a couple of things.
1st: The ability to maximize and utilize potential is no less a skill. An engineer or captain mentality versus a pilot mentality. All require a skill set.
2nd: The majority of the original MUD players, who then by default became the 1st generation of MMO players were originally tabletop RPG players. Which means that they already preferred a more complex set of rules and mechanisms within their leisure activities. Several console game developers crossed into that interest by releasing games like Final Fantasy or Armored Core. In the meantime, PC game companies were willing to push farther into that niche with things like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, not only surpassing any console game's offering of stat heavy min-max mechanics but bridging the gap to those gamers by licensing the IP of the biggest and best(and therefore most familiar) tabletop game.
All electronic games have statistics and probabilities in them by the very nature of being games, compounded by being electronic. In a non RPG you interact with those numbers much less or not at all, but they are still there. In an RPG, you actually have the ability to not only asses them, but alter them, and there is always an audience for that. Just as there will always be an audience for instant gratification platformers and shooters.
Yes, PC gamers on the whole are more likely to be interested in these types of games, and for many of the reasons you mentioned, but neither console nor PC gamer is more skilled than the other, they just have differing fields of specialization of those skills and how they apply them.
"Cough" GUILD WARS 2 "Cough"
Or it's about the chat windows. Consoles are all about voice now. Can't have 3 hundred people in town all talking at once using voice, but you can using text.
Not to mention hotbars with 50 buttons on them.
All i got from that long wall of pointless text was, console gamers are stupid. It's quite simple really. MMORPGs work better on pc because of the keyboard and mouse. That's it.
I for one, hope to see MMO developers support the next generation of consoles and finally bridge the gap between console and pc players alike. Can you imagine the Ass hats of Darkfall interacting with the dickheads of xbox live. I think the world would actually explode.
"Cough" GUILD WARS 2 "Cough"
Played Guild Wars. Loved Guild Wars. But Guild Wars was not an MMO.
I'm reserving my judgement on Guild Wars 2 until I've actually played it. You must have some info that I don't because I was unaware of any plans to port Guild Wars 2 to consoles.
"Cough" GUILD WARS 2 "Cough"
Played Guild Wars. Loved Guild Wars. But Guild Wars was not an MMO.
I'm reserving my judgement on Guild Wars 2 until I've actually played it. You must have some info that I don't because I was unaware of any plans to port Guild Wars 2 to consoles.
>.>
Check the interview girl
"Cough" GUILD WARS 2 "Cough"
Played Guild Wars. Loved Guild Wars. But Guild Wars was not an MMO.
I'm reserving my judgement on Guild Wars 2 until I've actually played it. You must have some info that I don't because I was unaware of any plans to port Guild Wars 2 to consoles.
>.>
Check the interview girl
so... checke dthe most recent interview and didnt see any mention whatsoever about this. dont think the word console was even used in the entire interview. not to mention this posting by Regina Buenaobra about a month ago:
"Hey, all. We saw this come up on the investor call, and wanted to respond.
I just want to reiterate that the development team is fully focused on making GW2 the best PC MMO ever released. We have a very small team exploring the possibility of console, but there are no definite plans for a console version at this time. The core of Guild Wars 2 development is fully focused on delivering a fantastic PC MMORPG experience."
So again, nothing saying it is coming to consoles, just that there is a very vague possibility that they may eventually port it to console, but no definite plans for it, which means as of now, no it isnt coming to consoles.
well what can i say. CCCP developing dust for the console..Bet that will change some things..
bobm111
CCP,Undead Labs,Turbine, Square Enix,SOE and Funcom all gearing to put mmos on consoles already not to mention there are over 20+mill people who own a console. Nahh it will never work!
I don't know if someone will attempt an MMORPG on a console. I don't know if they'll "do it right" even if they try.
But there's huge opportunity for massive steps forward for MMORPG gameplay. Current MMORPG players are looking for substantially different gameplay (no more "clones"). Changes to the core of what makes MMORPGs fun.
A Console MMORPG requires those massive changes to even be feasible. So if a skilled team of designers tried to tackle such a project, they will inevitably end up with a game ten times simpler than existing MMORPGs but which still manages to provide the key gameplay that makes MMORPGs deep and appealing to people (social interactions, world gameplay, and ideally a fun combat system.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Have we forgotten that FFXI has been going strong for 8 years now as an original console MMO and later ported to PC? The majority of the Japanese player base still prefers it on PS2 even though the PC version is superior due to "PS2 limitations". I see no major problems continuing when FFXIV is released on PC and PS3. It'll be huge in Japan if anything.
PS3 best suited for MMO's out of all the consoles, Its comes with HDD as standard that's easily upgraded to a bigger on, The Cell CPU far more powerful than anything in the Xbox360 or Wii can ever do making it better suited for creating a MMO on. SONY has SOE which has got MMO's incoming for the PS3, PS3 MOVE going open up whole new way to play MMO's with motion sensors the makes the WII motion controllers appear very dated tech. PC and PS3 will be the home of MMO's this decade.
By "simpler" do you mean shallower or just a more elegant interface?
A game can be deep but still easy to pick up an play. If they can pull of games like Monster Hunter Freedom 2 and Disgaea on the PSP, then I think that WoW would be a snap. The only problem is the interface which would have to be tweaked for a gamepad rather than 110 buttons + a mouse.
So yeah... Easier to learn the basics, or just less cruft?
well, technichally i think you can transform a pawn into any other piece than the king, but idk :P
Older consoles could not handle most MMOs. Memory limitations alone would have squashed the console for many MMOs back in the day. They certainly had the compute power and did not have a heavy OS in the way. Why develop a MMO primarily for consoles when the playerbase for MMOs is on another platform? Then there is the reworking of the genre to fit the control scheme that would be required. Its like asking why aren't there a plethora of RTS games on consoles. Input devices and hardware capabilities are often a significant "limiter" on what a game can be like.
However, there is Final Fantasy 11 and EQOA. It has been done and will be done again.
Oh yeah, I also forgot. Network connectivity. Connecting a console to the Internet was not as common as it is today. MMO without a network? I'd like to see it. Hard drives were not prolific. Hm, how to update that MMO when there is no hard disk.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
The aging of the console hardware is too fast to support the long term investement needed for an mmorpg.
The development time for a good MMORPG takes around 5 years, that's even longer than the medium life expectancy of a console.
The update cycles (patches) are too frequent to be supported by the traditional console suppliers.
The standard interface is not adequate enough to communicate and control with the avatars.
MMORPG's (even in its causal form) tend to be played for 3 to 4 hours long playing sessions. Console play is targeted at fast/fun/short sessions.
I think the above 5 points sums it up quite nicely.
Only very small - fast developped - instanced (pre loaded) content, coupled with a limited character progression scheme without much communications could do the tric.
And even then people would hesitate because there is a very limited time/aging bracket attached to it.
Who says the PS3 is not obsolete within 3 years (while my development team is only now on 75% of the needed development time...). This tends to lead to quick cheap instanced solutions without much variation in various playing options in all traditional aspects (pve-pvp-crafting-communications interface) of mmorpg gaming.
Oh it can be made - for sure - and even be succesful, but it would be something like COD MW2 with a little bit of character progression thrown in, not a fully fledged mmorpg.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
By "simpler" do you mean shallower or just a more elegant interface?
A game can be deep but still easy to pick up an play. If they can pull of games like Monster Hunter Freedom 2 and Disgaea on the PSP, then I think that WoW would be a snap. The only problem is the interface which would have to be tweaked for a gamepad rather than 110 buttons + a mouse.
So yeah... Easier to learn the basics, or just less cruft?
Elegant interface. The terms "simple" and "complex" measure how much of a mess a game is to learn. These terms are distinct from "shallow" and "deep", which measure how long you can spend playing the game before you feel there's nothing interesting, nothing left to master.
Chess is simple (a 6 year can easily learn it) yet deep (you can play thousands of games without fully mastering it.)
As the quote goes, "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -Antoine de Saint-Exupery.
So with an MMORPG design, this means distilling each concept down to the core of what makes it fun -- the core interesting decisions -- and presenting that as simply as possible.
I think it also means that each ability will end up being considerably more dynamic. In current MMORPGs nobody really says stuff like "That mage is really good at frostbolting" (or whatever ability/tactic). But you'd need to be able to say that in a console MMORPG, because you basically require a drastically lower number of abilities (which means they individually have to be more dynamic in order for the game as a whole to remain interesting and deep.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Voice chat is only useful in team aspects (such as grouping); keeping it open for opposing sides (such as PVP) leads to the xbox live syndrome - i.e., pre-pubescent, high-pitched voices cursing at you because you killed them. Thank god for *MUTE*.
Also, chess is no fun because you can't solo.
There's a glaring fault in your logic.
There's way more console gamers than PC gamers. There's more than enough people who own consoles that are interested in MMOs (or currently play one) that would be willing to play a good MMO on a console. For instance, I had a lot of friends that wanted to play it Age of Conan on Xbox 360, but didn't have a powerful enough computer to play it. Funcom sure missed the boat on that one.
I once considered myself a PC gamer and preferred it over a console (not anymore however). That said, I've always owned a current gen console. With 100% certainty, I can say that there are many people like myself. If you can afford to keep your computer up to date to play current games, then you can most certainly afford a console as well.
There are many console gamers that enjoy number crunching. That simply isn't a gaming trait unique to PC gamers.
MMO's have already been done and done well on consoles, as previous posters have already indicated. Console MMO's are only to get more popular as time goes on. The lead programmer of WoW and founder of ArenaNet is working on a console MMO right now. http://undeadlabs.com/
If a big worry about a console based MMO is the consoles supported lifetime, well fret not, because consoles these days last longer than your typical computer. The Xbox 360 was released in 2005. I can play games released today with no problem, pop in and go. If you built a computer in 2005 and wanted to play a game released this year, you would have to upgrade your computer.
If an MMO exceeds a consoles "lifetime" there's nothing stopping me from continuing to play as long as the developer continues to support it. People still play FFXI on PS2's today. There's also nothing stopping devs from re-releasing an MMO on future consoles. FFXI has already set the precedence for this.
FFXIV will likely be releasing this year or the next for both the PS3 and PC and I'm willing to bet that it'll command a subscriber base large enough to take second place under WoW with ease. Consoles are fully capable of supporting a successful MMO.
I don't see why they wouldn't. MMO's on the PC are evolving into console games anyways.
Cool story, but they already are.