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General: Three Distinct Factions
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
MMORPG.com's Jon Wood talks about the benefit of having three distinct factions in a game by referencing the new FPS title, Aliens vs. Predator.
When I got home from this year's Game Developers Conference, I decided that I was going to treat myself to a new FPS. Now, I was a fan of FPS before I'd even heard of an MMORPG and part of my gaming heart will always lay with classics like DOOM, Wolfenstein, Hexen and their slew of sequels.
I wasn't sure what to get. I'd already burnt out on Left 4 Dead 2, and I could hear the siren call of Modern Warfare 2, a game that I feel like a lapsed gamer for not picking up on day one. Then I got a phone call from one of my gaming friends. He and I had killed a lot of hours in Battlefield 2142, a game that he recommended to me, so when he started telling me how I "absolutely HAD to get Aliens vs. Predator," I put thoughts of Call of Duty out of my head and went for the less conventional choice. I'm glad I did.
Read Three Distinct Factions.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
Just to be clear, since you make this sound like something revolutionary. You realize they made the same game with the same name many years ago. Even then it had the 3 factions that all played much differently.
The original game was decent, I'm sure they've tweaked the multiplayer to be even better now as well. I do remember clinging to the ceiling as an alien and waiting for the marine to pause for a moment before dropping down and slicing my tail through him. The predator's fire and return disc was good fun too.
But at the same time I was never impressed enough with the game to buy this new version of it, although I considered it a couple times.
But MW2 has plenty of fun as well (this one I did buy), although compared to a solid game like bf2 it is lacking. It's sales are mostly due to how arcade it is, it simply took a realistic setting and made the multiplayer completely super fast unrealistic arcade style which all the halo fans enjoy.
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It is really a great multiplayer experience. Thank god they released dedicated servers! It was hell without them.
To the poster above me... really? Its a bad game? Name me one reason why you shouldnt recommend it?
Don't glorify BF:BC2 too quickly. The game is nice, but it is still having lots and lots of issues. Really a shame that games release in a beta state more and more.
And DICE could learn from the CR staff of some MMOs, regarding interaction with customers (yes, it isn't an MMO, but considering the amount of work DICE still has to do after launch it isn't too far off).
I completely agree with the 3 faction system. Its a huge advancement over 2 factions and even more so when each is unique. To me 3 just seems like the sweet spot, 4 is cumbersome and 2 is boring. The only other system that beats 3 factions would be guild based PvP, but even that often lacks the scale and ease of faction combat.
You mention FPS being your first love and its obvious you love MMO's or you wouldn't be here. I find it odd you did not mention Planetside, as it is the king of FPS in an MMO. Three factions with unique weapons and when people so choose, they can use that for unique strategies, some of which even involve stealing enemy weapons and vehicles to use against them. E.g. As an infiltrator I would often steal the side arm of the enemy I was fighting so when I picked people off from behind they would recognize the sound of the gun as their own and not respond to their dieing allies.
I'd also like to point out, that while two factions may team up to humble the biggest faction. More often then not, I have seen the two average size factions team up to annihilate the weakest faction. While it may sound broken, its simply human nature and more so, its fun!
Thanks for the nice write-up! I might hit bestbuy and pick this one up. The Alien is already appealing to me from what you wrote.
I'm not sure what kind of kick back was involved for hyping a FPS here as something innovative (when as has been pointed out, the game is in of itself a regurgitation of a prior incarnation of the game which even then was not innovative).
Personally, I have found the games that have the most enjoyment as far as PvP goes - go beyond NPC factions. Players should be able to fight for NPC factions (should be able to change factions with some game mechanic as well), they should be able to form their own factions (and deal with any possible repercussions of their actions), and the actions of the factions should mean something in the game rather than being some endless and tedious stalemate.
As for distinct factions, would it not be more about distinct racials? After all, if you are talking technology or the like; inevitably during an arms race there is going to be that element of stealing and reproducing technology. The proliferation of technology may include distinctions on certain levels, but overall there will be an undeniable sameness - otherwise, end of story as factions are eliminated. Heck, take a look at the original AvP - you have a "human" using an "Alien" head as a shield and a "Predator" weapon. Heck, look at the Predator movies for the same sort of thing.
Say we go with WoW (being one of those popular games, eh?) as an example of how two factions is fail. We have the third xpac coming out for this game, and the players are still the only people limited to faction by race. People see various races as members of both factions all the time. They see members of the different factions working together against other non-player factions, yet the players do not have the opportunity to do the same. They see members of subfactions within factions carrying out their schemes, without being able to throw their lot in with those factions. They see members of the two factions that should hate each other as members of the same faction without being able to do anything about it. Players of the different factions watch NPCs of the different factions talk, are able to talk to NPCs that should be part of the other faction, but they cannot talk to players of the other faction themselves.
Look at what is happening with CoH:GR, where your actions determine whether you are a hero or a villain (along the lines of Fable, eh?). Imagine a WoW where yes, you start out as a particular race - meaning you start either in a racial area or a neutral area. What you do determines which "faction" you belong to...and heck, add in the ability to join or form your own faction. You could still have the overall main theme of the Alliance and the Horde going back and forth between war and peace; but you would not be limited to such a linear and artificial path. A person should be able to be a member of the Alliance, but still not welcome in Dwarven lands for acts they have committed. It makes me think back to SWG where my Bothan merchant was secretly a Rebel so he would not run into issues with the Imps. Heck, a player could openly declare their association with the Alliance or the Horde or they could just fight the greater threat both face. They could be involved with a faction that is not associated with either to further the goals of that faction.
It is funny how Blizzard abandoned the two faction thing with Warcraft after Orcs vs. Humans; but they cling to it so tightly with World of Warcraft.
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So the focus on the article is a FPS game with a product shot?
I swore I logged into MMORPG.com...hmmm...
I think he wrote this in respects to and perhaps as a hint to MMORPG devs. to take notice as the faction/racial/gameplay mechanics of AvP.
Heck, taking AvP and working w/ that, I'm sure SEGA would one day make an MMORPG using the fps version as a base to start from. Who knows. Would be nice though.
/shrugs
While I completely agree that MMORPG's need to have 3 faction combat a la DAOC the write up on how each of the sides play in this game makes me think it really should have been called Starcraft the FPS'er.
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3 faction sometimes works, sometimes does not. Let's take your example and merge it with two MMO examples.
Planetside - 3 factions. I absolutely hated three factions in that game. Seriously. There was nothing worse than spending an evening hammering it out with the TR (I was NC) only to have the VS come waltzing in to back-hack us with minimal interference. I know this is supposed to be "two sides teaming up against a larger third" but when the VS had most of the continents locked and we were having a hell of a battle without them it was just a sour note that screwed over an entire evening's gaming.
Battlefield: Europe (WWIIOL) - 3 factions, 2 sides. Brits/French on one side, Germans on the other. Far better of the two games precisely because there was no third faction to come strolling into the backfield taking towns without opposition. In fact they put a nix to that happening early on through the use of links, offense and defensive links. Something Planetside also did as well.
3 factions is a holy grail to some people. I, however, remain unconvinced that it is the holy grail for all people. It certainly isn't for me. I only see it as a mechanic by which two sides are in for an unfulfilling night.
1: The faction that loses territory to another unopposed.
2: The faction that gains territory by sitting around, unopposed.
Not just another pretty color.
Three factions would have saved Warhammer online. I think many people who tried that game expected or at least hoped that a third faction would be added since it worked so well in DAoC. Mythic's greatest failure was ignoring many of it's greatest accomplishments in DAoC and assuming the nice graphics and implementation of player quests would trump great gameplay and well thought out pvp.
I wholehearted agree that three (or more) factional-based systems... including diversity in how they work, what advantages & disadvantages they have, adds a layer of depth that too often MMO's forget about.
Star Wars Galaxies.. has really only ever been a 2 faction game.. even if there is a 'neutral' pilot 'faction'... its really just become about someone hiring themselves out to one side or the other, with slightly different ships and ship-only abilities.
But on the ground, SWG only supports ONE system, that is the same for both factions.. the only real variation is which animiation effect you have, your rank title... cosmetic. While the rebel vs. imperial war was part of the story, all the wonderful variations in non-war factions, like Crime (Hutt) vs. Security (Naboo/Corellia) remains unexplored.
Star Trek Online.. the youngling in the MMO-like universe... barely has two factions, but it has the potential to easily have three. Federations (PvP/PvE), Klingon (PvP for now) and Romulan (only NPC at the moment). Personally, I'd rather play a Romulan than Klingon... and I am probably not alone. Nothing against Klingon players... but having a 3rd faction keeps everything just a bit more 'unbalanced'... particularly if the game developers really explore the ship & group skill variety to its utmost.
I hope STO moves to a full 3 faction system. I've given up hope that SWG will ever mange to be much more than it is right now, in terms of factions and professions anyway.
I played one of the old AvP games, sorry I cannot remember which one, but I really enjoyed playing all 3 styles... each was a great experience. I might pick up the new game... if I can find the time so play it between all these MMO grinds & forum posts
SWG/STO/(SWTOR)
I'm wondering why no1 mentioned RF Online? 3 factions, all different as hell (mechs/humans/midgets), chaos pots to be able to kill your own race and REASON to join factions fight (if you won Chip War, you could, as the only faction of all three, start mining in The Core, which gave you tons of money/materials). Ye, it's Korean, it's grind, but it has it's brightly shining sides (and if nothing changed, it's for free).
I just hope Warhammer 40k MMORPG will make all our dreams come true, warhammer world, machinery, melee/ranged setups for same classes and 3 factions :]
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Meh I gave up on my 48 Scientist due to the fact that the pvp'ers kept killing me, forcing me to buy inviso pots, and teleport pots from the store.
I realized that you'll get ganked everywhere possible and forced to buy those pots to get away. Sadly I reallized from RFO what a ripoff item shops f2p models are.
On the note of difference of races, RFO isn't a good example as many of the classes and skills are repeated in the other race/faction. The only difference is that each race/class has a specialized class you can choose... but mostly all the Teir 1-3 skill trees are almost identical for each different race/class.
RF on...lol
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DAoC and the third faction was great PvP... the best in any MMO till date why?
-3 factions
-realm points
-CLear goals other then just killing the ennemy
-Crowd controll gave a tactical twist to the combat
But i am still wayting on the game that implements all the above with 5 factions instead of 3
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Would have been intresting if OP would have mentioned how devs could make this happen in a genre like MMORPG where you can expect hundreds of players playing simultaneously on one server, instead of what is obvious how it can be delivered in multiplayer games.
AvP is a nice game but to say MMORPG devs should learn from it is NOT what I would like MMORPG developers to actually do.
It works great in multiplayer games as we expect it the way it is, MMORPG should offer so much more that it's kinda unrealistic to expect such a limited experiance from a MMORPG.
Okay lets say they should learn from it, is it that we want our PVP experiance to be inside small instances where we can do a 16vs16 battle against eachother?
I guess in an MMORPG you can't have the Alien crawling on cielings, or sides of walls... they'd be forced to walk/run like any other class? Perhaps you're right in that making distinctive gameplay differences for MMORPGs might prove technically impossible or improbable to execute correctly, as it does in fps games. Too bad, you feel that way... I'm 50/50 on that it would prove to difficult... but still an effort should be made to find something new that could be implemented in an MMORPG, techincal difficulties asside. I think the OP is just trying to suggest that it's a good idea on paper, and perhaps why not try it for MMORPGs... at worse it will fail, or moderately offer something new albeit not perfected for MMORPG environment, or at best give a whole new gameplay mechanic that could open up and set new trends in MMORPG game designs.
Well who knows at this point what could or might happen, still I do like that he suggests this as a possibility, ... perhaps mmo devs should take notice... can't hurt really, and this to the benefit of all gamers if one day one dev. should succeed in this.
I feel like MAG for ps3 despite being for console has been overlooked, as it IS a three factioned FPS, MMO-like game.
3 factions?
Yes certainly the best idea for pvp games:
- DAoC
- Planetside
I only played those two games that offered this feature, but for me they are the 2 best ... due to the factions triangle.
All mmo that appeared recently with only 2 factions just miserably failed, in my humble opinion for sure
Before concluding, i just hope W40k will offer more factions than that!
Maybe that's why American bipartisan system seems gridlocked... they could use a 3rd faction... err party i mean lol.
Maybe that's why American bipartisan system seems gridlocked... they could use a 3rd faction... err party i mean lol.
There are other parties but being part of another party doesn't actually get results when others say "if you vote "green, libertarian, communist, etc then you are throwing away your vote".
but you know, one can't impose a system on a people. It has to grow organically from the individual society.
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I guess in an MMORPG you can't have the Alien crawling on cielings, or sides of walls... they'd be forced to walk/run like any other class?
Nah not really but read what you say below this.
Perhaps you're right in that making distinctive gameplay differences for MMORPGs might prove technically impossible or improbable to execute correctly, as it does in fps games.
Excactly
Too bad, you feel that way...
Ah you got me wrong here, it would be awesome if we could have that in a MMORPG, but you see as you yourself said before it's at the moment technically impossible or improbable to execute correctly, so don't give me that Too bad you feel that way cause as said it would be awesome but think about your own words as I repeated them
I'm 50/50 on that it would prove to difficult... but still an effort should be made to find something new that could be implemented in an MMORPG, techincal difficulties asside. I think the OP is just trying to suggest that it's a good idea on paper, and perhaps why not try it for MMORPGs... at worse it will fail, or moderately offer something new albeit not perfected for MMORPG environment, or at best give a whole new gameplay mechanic that could open up and set new trends in MMORPG game designs.
Well who knows at this point what could or might happen, still I do like that he suggests this as a possibility, ... perhaps mmo devs should take notice... can't hurt really, and this to the benefit of all gamers if one day one dev. should succeed in this.
I am all for innovations, but would like to see things being perfected with what we have and we not there yet, single/mulitplayer have proven this already with many games that have come and gone in several years, what do we have that comes close to perfection in this genre? Once we see developers actually being close to perfection I hope we will see new innovative idea's come to "virtual life"
But I do want it to be massive and not some instance like multiplayer games, tech will get there, but as said we not there yet.
DAoC made me love and yearn for MMO PvP. 3 factions was a HUGE advantage to that game. WARHAMMER could have been awesome if it didnt run poorly and had a 3rd faction.