The Developers neverending quest to Balance classes in an mmo...

franksalbe · March 2010

In the game developer’s ultimate quest to balance classes in MMORPGs... they get an epic FAIL!

I considered myself a casual - hard core gamer. Meaning I play MMORPG's for extensive amount of time, but more for the social aspect then getting into the hardcore aspects of pure pvp or pure raiding. Social gamers tend to be Jacks of all Trades. We play a little of everything with in reason.

I have played in MMORPG game life so far, EQ, EQ2, SWG, and currently WOW / WAR.

We (meaning gamers) over the past decade have put up with a lot of crap in the name of BALANCE. We've gone through: nerfs, skills being removed, mechanics being overhauled, and the ever so popular game change to another complete different game (you all know which game I am pointing this at). Although the last notation there was not due mainly to Balance issues in the game it played its part in. We have put up with a lot 'Ish and doled out plenty of cash to constantly being let down over and over again.

Now, before I continue. Some may not agree, maybe because they were on the better receiving side of said balance or just didn't mind the change at all. Those by all means are fine with me, but let’s not kid ourselves here. Plenty a games have gone through changes which just complete polarize the community and eventually drains the life of a game.

My question to the MMORPG community is: How should game balancing issues be treated overall?

Here is my brief answer to this. If you find yourself at a point in the game where 1 class or several class seem to be OP compared to other classes, Instead of nerfing said class in the quest to balance the class just give it a weakness to counter balance there inherit OP.

Example: Give certain less desirable classes certain skills which can momentarily critically sub due the OP class. If the Archer type class needs some love and the OP Wizard class needs to be put in there place. Give the Archer class a skill which silences said OP class for 5 seconds with a immunity for 15 secs after that and can be reapplied again.

This example would due 2 things in the game.

1. Make a class less desired more essential in the overall balance of forming a party and said Archer can finally join said parties with out having to beg .

2. Brings the effectiveness of OP class down a notch. No nerfing required. No breaking of mechanics.

I do capitulate to the fact that some balance issue can occur due to a glitch which cause a class to do things it was not mean to be done. “Glithes” like these need to be address no matter what. That does not mean that you need to complete warp a classes bread and butter structure to please the masses who feel they get to much butter.

What do you think MMORPG? What are some of your ideas on class Balance and how it can be handled better?

Amathe · March 2010

I have been playing mmos for over a decade, so I have heard every rationalization a developer can give over why they have to nerf. I still hate it. And if they do it more than the industry norm, I usually quit.

Games like to promote "choice." They pay lip service to that idea, but then if you make good choices they punish you.

The solution? Design better. Test better. And if that still results in one class playing better than a similar class, boost the weaker classes somehow. If the issue is not class versus class but the game as a whole, make the game harder. Most of them are too easy as it is, so there's plenty of room in that department.

I quit WoW because I was on a treadmill, where for months I would try to make my character a little better, and no sooner had I done it then I got creamed with the nerf bat. I really wasn't making any real progress, and I tired of it.

franksalbe · March 2010

I agree with you on quite a few points there bro!

Game design needs to be address ALOT more In MMO's. Especially if PVP is going to be involved.

As for PVE all i can is that "A hard game for the most part is not a bad game". Games are most fun when they present a genuine challenge.

Game design definitely contributes to balance issues to the point that one to many games have been rush to production.

If time becomes an issue in terms of game development. Then launch the game completed with the game structure that is complete and by all means add the rest as you go. I rather have a game that has no end game content and stops at a certain point then be disappointed with a poorly designed end game experience.

As from a balance standpoint, developers need to take more painstaking steps in looking at each class and measuring how they stack up against their counterparts. I think this step is being looked over way to often in game design, hence the never ending quest to balance

Axehilt · March 2010

Balance is critical.

Decisions are the fundamental reason to play games instead of reading, or watching a movie. Decisions are interaction.

In an unbalanced game, your decisions aren't really decisions. An overpowering choice will exist, and all other options are mistakes rather than decisions. You may as well not exist as a player, because you're not really playing the game -- you don't interact with it -- you're simply following the path of least resistence.

Imbalance creates shallow games, where the path to victory is obvious. This makes the game grow old extremely fast. The secret of course is that you're always following the path of least resistence, but it takes years to discover that path in a great game, whereas it takes hardly anytime to "solve the game" when something is blatantly imbalanced.

Nerfs are inevitable in any sane game. Even the OP's suggestion of "adding a weakness" is just flat-out a nerf (and would be perceived as such by players.) Trying to avoid nerfs via pure buffs just results in more work for the developer, which results in less beneficial changes overall (more effort per change = less changes.) That might be alright, except that there's no real benefit to balancing things this way: either way, the comparitive overpoweredness of that class/ability is going to be nerfed.

Realistically you do want to minimize the visual appearance of nerfs. You don't want to just rattle off a bunch of reductions. And you can often misdirect players from realizing you're nerfing things by doing a nerf+buff ("Fireball's damage increased 50%. Fireballs mana cost and cast time increased 60%.")

theAsna · March 2010

How would you define class balance?

Even if a game only had one class, then there would be issues with ranged vs. close combat and due to the different equipment levels.

Besides, recently I read about a study some british scientist made. They asked people different questions in order to determine with how much a salary someone would be happy.

The scientists wanted to test several theories:

The absolute amount of the salary affects the general happiness
The amount of the salary in comparison to the average salary affects the general happiness
Neither the absolute amount of the salary nor the comparison with the average salary has a big effect, but the increase of their salary in comparison to their "peers/friends/aquaintances" has an effect on the happiness

And guess what. Theory 1) and 2) couldn't be proved. "Astonishingly" it's theory 3) which applies to a significant portion of the people.

If you transfer this result to MMOs, can there be achieved some kind of balance? Whether it's the combat performance of a class, or the individual in-game achievements of a player, players will always compare themselves with others.

Besides it's all numbers. You'll have to gather quite a lot of empirical data to notice class imbalances. Remember, not every player has the same skills. So what is really an imbalance of classes? What is lack of skill or bad tactics? What is envy?

troydavid · March 2010

I personally dislike most balance attempts by developers.

Different types of people (players) are just better at certain things.

I think that balance should be maintained through the player base via well developed mechanics. For example, the game should be designed so that if ONE player becomes over powered, than that player can be defeated by a group of people meaning to do so. There is no reason why one player regardless of level can single-handedly (effortlessly in most cases) defeat three or more players. Make that a game mechanic and the game will always stay balanced.

For PVE, scale the damage given to damage received. That way if a player is level 5 and over-powered and is fighting and soundly defeating lvl 8 mobs (thus being overpowered) the game mechanics should adjust the mobs damage output (or spawn more creatures due to the increased need for damage output) to defeat the overpowered character.

And if a player still figures out a way (without cheating) to win, well yay for strategy and intelligent game play.

Thanks

T

Xiaoki · March 2010

Any good developer will make balance changes when they are necessary. If that causes players like Amathe to quit then thats perfectly fine because leaving things unbalanced would cause a lot more to quit.

You cant just tweak one thing here or one thing there and call it done. MMOs have to be balanced with many different factors in mind. For example:
solo
small group PvE
large group PvE
small group PvP
large group PvP
A slight tweak may be minor in one area but major in another area which would then result in further balancing.

Also, the reason balancing is neverending is because development is neverending. A particular item or spell may be trivial now but combined with a future item or spell and it could become overpowered.

J.Yossarian · March 2010

Originally posted by troydavid

I think that balance should be maintained through the player base via well developed mechanics. For example, the game should be designed so that if ONE player becomes over powered, than that player can be defeated by a group of people meaning to do so.

this reminds me of this old thread from the WoW forums (some of the pictures might not be there):

Hi there.

Recently i saw an enormous amount of posts regarding warlocks, deathcoil, and how overpowered and imbalanced warlocks are.

To help you fellow players, i've decided to write a guide, being a warlock myself, so that more people can succefully defeat warlocks on their server.

This will be a comprehensive guide containing images, spoilers, tactics, and tips to defeat this imba class.

For the purposes of this guide, i'll assume the warlock is Soul-link specced, since it is the most imbalanced build as people say.

Preparation

You can find an SL warlock outside IF or Orgrimmar, this is the place were most SL warlocks hang out.

To initiate combat, you should approach the warlock and talk to him. He will say something about how nerfed warlock were, and how they could not kill anyone in previous patches, and how they became godlike while mages are now water dispensers. After you talk to him, click DUEL to start the fight.

PHASE ONE

You should position yourself as shown in this image:

Phase I (http://img133.imageshack.us/i/warlockmod8jo.jpg/)

The warlock will begin the fight without a pet, because he will feel too overpowered to use a pet against you. MT#1 and MT#2 should position the warlock so that his back will face the tank farther away from the IF door. It is advisable for them to have at least 350 shadow resistance, and one of them should also have 250 fire resist minimum. (This is explained later). Greater Shadow Protection pots are also a good commodity, as Whipper root tubers and +50 stamina potions from the quest in Blasted Lands.

The melee DPS group (shown as YELLOW in the pic) should stay behind the warlock, near the tank farther away from the Gate. This is done because they will need to retreat behind the tank and bandage, from time to time. (Bandage spot is shown on the pic)

The rest of the raid should position as shown in the picture. It is important for the raid to have about 120-200 shadow resistance, which will help sustain the damage. Keep in mind you will need at least 2 dispellers for each debuff type, otherwise you will wipe pretty soon.

During Phase 1, the warlock will perform a series of attacks:

SHADOW BOLT: A bolt of shadow is launched every 4 seconds to the tank that has aggro, causing 1200 to 2500 shadow damage, depending on resistance. A shadow bolt will crit between 3500 and 6500 damage, again depending on the target resistance. This is were MT#2 should come into play: If a Shadowbolt crits MT#1, he will have a debuff that will increase Shadow damage by a Zillion times. This is when MT#2 should taunt the warlock to prevent MT#1 from dying. MT#1 will then do the same thing once another Shadowbolts crits MT#2.

Curse of Doom: Every 1 minute, the warlock will cast CoD on a random raid member. This member should move outside the raid and unload full DPS, since he will die within the minute.

Shadowburn: The warlock will cast Shadowburn everytime he changes target. If one of the raid members gets aggro, he will suffer shadowburn and instantly die. It is important not to OverDPS, or members will die one after another.

Fear: The warlock will cast Fear on a randomy raid member, every few seconds. You should provide everyone with Fear Ward if you have it, and dispel fear ASAP, especcially on MTs and Healers.

Phase 1 is relatively easy and will last until the warlock has 70% life. This can take between 3 and 5 minutes, depending on your equipment.

PHASE TWO

When the warlock reaches 70% life, he will instacast a felhunter and Soul Link it. This is when the fight becomes harder.

Note: You cannot kill the warlock while the felhunter is alive. If you try to, the warlock will say that It's not his time yet and will use an healthstone, which will probably render the fight impossible in phase three.

A few moments before Phase two, the raid should move as shown in the pic.

Image

Note: MT#3 and MT#4, which are tanking the felhunter, should stay at least 10 yards away from the warlock

Phase two is all about killing the felhunter.

The felhunter CANNOT BE DAMAGED by magic, as it has very high magic resistance. Also, during phase two, you should not magic debuff the pet or the warlock, otherwise the felhunter will remove the debuff and heal himself.

MT#1 & #2 should stay on the warlock with a few healers, while the melee DPS group will take down the Felhunter, while the magic

DPS group focuses on the warlock. During this phase, the warlock will receive next to no damage, as he is Soul Linked to the pet.

During Phase two, the warlock will have a new attack at his disposal:

Hellfire: Every 20 seconds, the warlock will cast Hellfire and hit anyone within 10 yards for an incredible amount of Fire damage.

Every DPS class standing near the warlock should retreat as shown in the picture and bandage as soon as he casts hellfire. Only the MT with Fire resistance should remain near the warlock. This is done because if the warlock finds no one within melee range during Hellfire, he will summon an Infernal and wipe the raid.

When the Felhunter is dead, PHASE THREE begins.

PHASE THREE

Phase three will begin as soon as the Felhunter is dead.

Notes: The warlock should be at around 40% health now. If he's any higher than that, you'll prolly not be able to take him down before you wipe. Also, if you have more than 6-7 dead members by now, you will probably wipe as you can't do enough DPS.

During phase three, the warlock will use all his arsenal to kill you.

Curse of Shadow/Elements/Agony: Every 10 seconds, the warlock will cast a random Curse on the entire raid. These debuffs should be removed as soon as possible. If CoE or CoS are not removed after 10 seconds, the warlock will cast Immolate/Shadowbolt on the member, killing him.

Howl of Terror: The Warlock will randomy cast HoT, hitting all the melees around him. You need to be quick and dispel Fear on the MTs otherwise they will lose aggro.

Death coil: The most imbalanced spell in the warlock's arsenal. This spell will be cast on a random raid member killing him, and will heal the warlock. CT_raidassist will warn you when the warlock is about to cast Deathcoil, and all Healers should hide behind the tank. If more than 3-4 healers are killed, the MTs will not be able to sustain damage and die, wiping the raid.

Note: In this pic ( http://img336.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warlock2mod5yb.jpg. ) an arrows point to the out-of-LOS spot for Healers. This is where you should hide when the warlock is about to deathcoil

PHASE FOUR

When the warlock is at 5% life, he does an emote saying "Imba Warlock performs one last service for Blizzard" He will then cast Curse of Doom on the entire raid. This means you need to kill him within one minute, or you will wipe. You should have at least 15-20 DPS classes still alive here, otherwise you won't be able to kill him in time.

If you manage to kill him within the minute, congratulations! You just killed the hardest boss currently in World of Warcraft!

Of course that was a joke.

Other than that I agree with Axehilt, I think he said it better than I am likely to manage.

franksalbe · March 2010

Axehilt - I hear you what you are saying.

And even my suggestion is somewhat of a nerf i guess.

As for the issue of balancing classes versus PVE. I think that has never being quite an issue.

PVE content has never been the main driven force for having to balance.

I have rarely seen a post where someone is complaining that one class does to much damage on NPC's and needs to be balanced so the NPC has a chance... LOL ;D

or that the OP class is making the 5 Hour raid to doable and needs to be toned down.

If anything PVE balance issues only come up when a class seems to not be able to properly contribute in a group or solo certain PVE content.

Nope we are all aware that balance issues arise more from PVP then PVE.

PVP over the past decade has become the go to for end content in most MMO's. It might not be the only end content, but quickly ends up being the most important content for most MMO's and for some the only viable content.

Question: Are developers maybe confused with the ability for gamers ingenuity as OP?

Some gamers are just better at finding the optimal specs for a class then others causing them to seem OP. Some gamers just know how to time skills so well it feels they are running on auto pilot. I see how this might cause issues for developers. I mean just because they made a box does not mean that we will just play inside the box.

Amathe · March 2010

What also makes me nuts is when they try to "balance" PvE based on what PvPers are doing, or vice-versa. They should balance those seperately. The fact that a player can do X amount of damage on a single cast may cause them to one shot everyone in PvP, so nerfing that in PvP makes sense. But that same amount of damage may not be all that much against a raid boss with a million hit points.

Illius · March 2010

When I think of balance I think of everything having a positive and negative aspect. Everything should have a strength and weakness..

If there are melee fighters, then they should obviously excel in up close combat. You want to take them down, stay at range. Same thing with ranged combat. If you get in their face they die. Now lets assume you`re a melee combat oriented guy but you have good range defense like a shield perhaps... well then just reduce their damage out put a bit so that the ranged guy can get away.

Games nowadays seem to balance on very simple terms. It`s not balance in a finite sort of way but rather rough and crude. All they seem to do is swing the nerf bat wildly and whatever they hit blindly gets penalized. I believe the developers need to delve a bit deeper and fine tune rather then what they`re doing now. However I suppose there`s not that many opportunities to fine tune something when subtlety and finesse is not present to start with.

SnarlingWolf · March 2010

If you don't like getting nerfed then don't play the over-powered class.

If you pick up a game and find out what the strongest class is everytime and then go play it, you're going to be the one receiving the most nerfs. It's really as simple as that.

Now have there been cases where nerfs happened on a class that didn't need it? Sure. But the majority of cases have been, and will be that a class or skill was overpowered and it got rebalanced. People complain about it because they like abusing the system and being the strongest around. But even they realize that there was an imbalance.

It doesn't matter much now anyways. Look at one of the more recent MMOs to come out, WAR. That game was so easy to level you could have a max of ever class in a very short span of time. And they gave you so many character slots you could do it almost entirely on one server. So if you like playing the over-powered class you just rolled one of each type of character and leveled him up. Then when the every couple months rebalance came you just switched to the strong character until the next rebalance.

It's the same thing long term players in WoW do, max out a bunch of guys and just change what you play as the balance changes happen.

Amathe · March 2010

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

If you don't like getting nerfed then don't play the over-powered class.

If you pick up a game and find out what the strongest class is everytime and then go play it, you're going to be the one receiving the most nerfs. It's really as simple as that.

How would I know what a game company is going to consider the most overpowered class years later when I start killing boars with my level 1 character at launch? You seem to assume that everyone who plays a class that is nerfed intentionally chose that class because it was destined for greatness, which of course they don't.

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