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Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Ryzom,VG:SOH,FFXI and Eve online
Distopia
Member EpicPosts: 21,183
You might wonder why my title is as it is. Well if so you're in luck because I'm going to answer that for you.
I've been following the PUB more than usual lately, and if there is anything I've noticed it's the abundance of topics related to games being too easy, I've even made a thread on the subject.
Then something dawned on me, and I wondered WTF am I talking about. Maybe I overlooked the games I listed above, or maybe, just maybe I'm going senile. Any way I digress...
Why do so many people sit around complaining that there are no challenging games to play. When there are games like these on the market? Sure a few games out of so many isn't much. They still offer a home for those wishing they could relive those old MMO days. They're very much designed around the principle desires most of these posters express.
Why are people not playing these games, what is missing from them that turns you away?
-edit, because I think I really am going senile, LOL.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Each of those games have some big issues that some people just can't get over.
DF: Grindy as hell, crappy low budget dev team, FFA pvp doesn't appeal to alot of people
Fallen Earth: Not as sandboxy as people would like, kind of boring and dry
EVE: Many find it boring in general due to lots of time sinks, many don't like not being able to walk on foot out of ships
-------------------------
Because complaining is always easier.
There's a lot of good games out there, but i dont really understand why people don't play them. I'm quite amazed when people say things like "wow that's exactly like my dream game! now only if it had a ranger class or better graphics!" people are way too picky nowadays.
I like all of these three games and I play them all.
REALITY CHECK
Let's say hypothetically that somebody created the perfect mmorpg. I belive a lot of people on these forums wouldn't like it:)
Heh, Those three games along with Ryzom are the reason I continue to believe in the genre.
Im taking a break right now but all three of the games you listed are awesome.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Each of your points have merit and make perfect sense, before I ask myself, as opposed to...
So many always complain that games are too different today, to paraphrase- "they've fudged up the MMO". Yet we have the above games sitting as solid examples this simply isn't true. Sure we don't have the EA's, SOE's or blizzards making them. But then again when did we ever have those companies making them? Those companies only aquired the games, and dismantled the original teams who made them.
Also technically speaking as an example Darkfall runs significantly better than SWG did. Sure it has issues, the same as any other game. Maybe a few more than normal (today) but compared to older games (which were prone to problems weekly) there's really no difference.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I actually consider these MMOs to be real MMOs, the genuine article. My opinion of each and why I do not currently play it...
Darkfall: I do not play it and won't... FreeForAll PvP. I suck at PvP and I am nothing more than prey in this one. Enough said. Nope, never tried this one... I knew better.
Fallen Earth: I am impressed with this one and what I have heard of it. However.... I will NOT play any MMO that is built upon a post-cataclism Earth.... since I personally believe the Earth will end up very much like it is portrayed in FE and I have no desire to play a MMO about just yet... I will play the real life version soon enough (yes I am being serious, not sarcastic).
Ryzom: I fell in love with this game. The virtual world itself feels (in a way) like it's alive. My problem with this game is that it has been passed around (owned by multiple companies) like everyone's girlfriend and I don't want to deal with the "baggage". I still do not trust Ryzom's servers won't be shut down because of a lawsuit by someone else that claims to own it that we don't know about yet. If this MMO had not had such a twisted history of ownership I would be playing Ryzom.
VG:SOH... by this I am guessing you mean Vanguard... I played this for a while, but when I was there it felt like a single player game... because I was lucky if I saw more than one or two other Players an hour during my subscription. My final decision to leave Vanguard wasn't about player population though as I felt it was a great MMO and that I was going to love it..... it was about me making the choice to refuse to pay subscriptions to any SOE game, no matter how good the MMO is. I will never do business with Sony Online Entertainment. I happen to love the changes they are doing with SWG as of late, but I will not return... and I loved SWG too.
EvE Online: in my humble and noobish opinion this is the best true MMO currently available, but it is not for everyone. I do believe CCP has done a great job with their MMO and I did play this for over 4 years (and have great memories of my time spent in EvE)... but I suck at PvP and was always just a "dear caught staring into the headlights" in EvE, so I came to the conclusion that I did not belong there. In hindsight it was best that I left EvE even though I miss it in a lot of ways.
It seems like most great MMOs get sucker-punched somehow, either through bad financial management, through bad luck, or bad [insert controversy here]. A few have made it, and I hope all of these MMOs end up doing well after all is said and done.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
I can't speak for the other games but..
EVE Online isn't challenging.
It's just a game where you advance by maintaining subscription time. Any decent player in that game is going to be held back because they get too much ISK and are held back by a skill advancement system designed for people who only play the game 1 hour per week.
Not to mention you don't have free controls in EVE. The combat system pretty much sucks, press a few buttons and watch. The response to action is very clunky in EVE too, I can't imagine trying to PvP in a game with such bad controls.
You are mistaken about vanguard having any challenge. A few months after release, once SOE took over, leveling speed dramatically increased whereby one has been able to level 1-50 in 5-6 days played just doing solo quests. There is no challenge in regards to mobs as players are greatly overpowered. Raiding is now a joke since they made it super easy where even the most casual of guilds can complete APW with little thought. While Vanguard is a wonderfully designed game, has great classes, great combat and great crafting it is far from a challenging game because of SOE's desire to simply it and becuase they have refused to fund and develop the game.
I would replace Vanguard with Final Fantasy XI.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Yeah I was actually thinking that myself while writing VG.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You play Ryzom? Me too! I hope that we can meet up in the game sometime. As for the first post, the thread starter, thank you for talking about these games. They really are challenging and as of yet I haven't found anything I consider a flaw on Ryzom. I greatly enjoy the game play, the storyline, and the graphics. Not to mention, it is tricky going into an OP war against over forty other guild members from the opposing faction.
www.ryzom.com
That's good to hear, I'm glad to see there are quite a few posters who agree these are great games. As of late all we hear about are the failed games, and how much MMO's suck today. I think to myself, there are other options, that are largely deserted and ignored for no real reason.
I don't understand why people expect the big triple A companies to come up with games like these. They have never been in the business of innovating, which raises questions (for me) about the origin of these expectations.
Think back to UO, EQ or SWG, they werent designed by SOE or EA. They were designed by smaller companies, who were bought out. Why do you think there has never been a true spiritual successor to any of these games? Vanguard may have been, thats a story for another thread though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Hmmm. How to answer why I'm not playing these games. I'll start with the ones I like and move in order down to the ones I don't like.
FFXI: My first true MMORPG after my first MMORPG which was SWG. This game truly broke me in. Atmosphere unmatched. Storyline and cutscenes amazing. Job system and how you unlock them, amazing. Grouping actually amazing once you get into a group. Reasons for not playing? Age of the game, controls are a pain to relearn every time I resub, it is still a pain in the butt to level without a dedicated group and one that has oodles of time which I don't have anymore. Family and all that. Also, FFXIV on the way looking to fix all the above issues. Still, my old school favorite though.
Eve Online: Challenging, big learning curve, but the combat leaves me wanting due to not having enough twitch/action to it. Also, the learning skills over time is unique...except I don't think it is implemented correctly. I shouldn't have to wait 3 days for a skill. OR....if I have to wait 3 days I should be able to actively learn a skill as well while doing something else. As it is, I find myself only logging on to change my skill queue because the rest of the game doesn't really offer me any type of playstyle I enjoy.
Vanguard: Love this game BUT, getting to level 22, hitting the solo quest wall and having NO ONE around to run the 30 or so dungeons available at said level, made me /cry and unsub. They fix these 2 areas and throw more support at it, I'd be back in a second.
Darkfall: Another game where I almost love the skill system but find the grind tedious and I'm just not good at PVP so having all my hard earned stuff taken from me every time I leave a town is just not fun in any respect. That and I HATE forced first person view.
Fallen Earth: I actually liked this game until I had to fight some mobs in the world past the tutorial. The combat was not fun and was plain annoying. Also, not a big fan of post apocalyptic settings.
Ryzom: Lack of music and overly complicated stanza system made me leave this very quickly.
I liked what Ryzom is, though I don't play it simply because I'm more of a Fallen Earth target consumer. I love me some fallen earth, it takes me back to SWG for some reason. The only reason I never stuck around in Ryzom was because the lore never really sucked me in. Everything else about the game was both deep and rewarding. I have a lot of respect for the OG creators of that game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
i enjoy Fallen Earth although was, of course, skeptical at first especially in the setting... ie Grand Canyon.
It works in it's own way... plenty of exploring and towns and you can play the way you want too. Although some hardcore-ists are against the "no respec" option, personally i feel it's more RPG-ish than the traditional MMO.
Do i put a few points into strength to carry more now, even if i'm not melee based. Sure... it's my character... no one complains about the Fallout games lacking "respecs"... some MMORPGs, essentially miss out that RPG we've grown up with...
Combat needs some work... but it's shown a massive rapid improvement within the first 6 months. Companies with previous experiance still haven't quite got the balance right - Cryptic and Mythic, i'm looking at you. yes you.
I'd like to see the expansions branch out into other areas in the US... or like the PS3 game Resistance, within Europe. If anybody played a poor RTS a few years ago (came out on the xbox too), the point of that game was after a nuclear attack on the US capital. Basically you had the russians invading alaska, the south declaring independance... and European forces trying to quell the east.
Fun game fallen Earth, and i do like the premise. Like China, who didn't use or invent glass - lost 300 years of possible technological advancement. I think Humanity has reached that point in evolution that only a catalyst will bring out the best and worst in us... in this case it's mutations and the apocolyptic way the world has become.
Plus you can bet that Japan has mechs !
"nothing actually matters, we're just slightly evolved monkeys clinging to a dying piece of rock hurtling through space waiting for our eventual death." - Frankie Boyle, Mock The Week
First off thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed post. I can agree with a lot of your complaints especially with VG.
It's a shame such a deep game has such a dismal future, as well as had such a failed exsistence. Part of me wishes a substantial number of players would just sign up to VG just to say FU to SOE and play the game they don't want people to play. There's a catch of course, SOE gets the money.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
my answer to this question is that they are niche games - they appeal to a certain type of gamer. Plus they are not easy games and today's average gamer wants games to be easy so that they can get to the end-game before their free month of playtime is up. I have only played three of them Fallen Earth, Ryzom(which was very frustrating to me) and EVE. They are all games that the player base loves but the majority of gamers do not even want to try. I could even argue that if the majority of gamers played them - it would ruin their appeal to the current player base. Most EVE players do not care if anyone else llikes their game, they want only true EVE players to play. My opinion.
Great post!
Just to clarify my intent with this thread I'm not doing this to judge anyone on their preferred games, or attack them for not liking certain games. I just want to know what aspect(s) people think these games are lacking. As well as draw a little attention to them, and generate a positive discussion based on existing MMO's instead of always focusing on the bad ones.
WAR, AOC, Aion and STO aren't the only games that released in the last few years. EVE may be older, yet it still remains a viable game to jump into if you haven't played it yet. The same applies to Ryzom and even VG IMO. These games aren't past their prime yet. If anything their coming into their own as systems can more easily run them now especially in VG's case.
These aren't single player games they don't have a life span of months, it's supposed to be years. I think sometimes we as a community forget this.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I can't talk for all of those games but I can talk for two of them.
Rzyom - This was actually the first MMO I ever played and I loved it, but I eventually moved on and, though I have returned on several occasions, I now find it much too grindy to enjoy.
FFXI - This is actually the closest I've come to my perfect MMO to be honest (ignoring a few issues like job imbalances). The game has a huge grind but because it forces a social element on players it never gets boring. IMO FFXI is a good example of why community is the biggest contributor to the success or failure of an MMO. Without the community this game would be a horrible grind but because of it (and because SE forces players to be a part of it) it's one of the best MMOs on the market.
The only reason I'm not playing now is because I'm awaiting FFXIV, not as a sequel to FFXI, I'm well aware it's going to be a different game, but simply because I know SE is one of the few MMO devs out there that actually know how the fundamental mechanics of a virtual world operate. All of the info we have on XIV so far indicates it is going to be just as heavily community dependent as XI (hell it has full item decay reliant on a player economy), it'll just have some options for solo play this time around as well.
Haha so true.
Of course, though arguably a lot of the complaints you see (which I was referring to) are complaints saying these types of games don't exist any longer and all we have are WOW clones, or easy mode games.
Each indvidual game I listed is a niche, however they all cover different niche's.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Hmmm....this turning into a really intersting thread, better contribute properly.
Eve - Outstanding piece of work, resubed for a month this evening.
Fallen Earth - Playing this as well atm. Got to say I love it, you need at least half a brain to play but I wouldn't exactly call it the most chalenging game out there. Granted I haven't got into s2 yet so it's to early doors to come out with a more balanced opinion.
Darkfall - Tried the trial and enjoyed my time on it. Just not enough to sub to it. For me there was just something that didn't grab me and for the life of me I don't know what it is.
VG:SOH - played for two months and really enjoyed it. If I could have found more people to group with for dungeons and if SOE were going to throw some money at it, I would re-sub in a second.
FFXI - This is one of the only mmo's I have never tried.....why is that?.......Oh man I can't aford to sub three games atm!
Edit...Forgot Ryzom....Cof cof!
Ryzom - for some reason the fact that you can't jump really anoyed me.....that makes me really shallow I know, what with the whole amazing craft system, and the stanzas and the living world. But seriously, no jump! Thats what put me off. Not my proudest moment.
There are fairly solid reasons as to why all of them may not be a good choice for people.
Darkfall: Terrible terrible community. Gameplay is passable.
Fallen Earth: Good, cool dev team, but not sandboxy enough as you feel locked into doing the quests due to the skill point reward quests. A bit too much empty space and not enough to do with it at the moment.
Ryzom: Up,down,up,down. This game has died and been resurrected more times than I can count. I love the lore to it, but the game itself has half finished content everywhere and just flat out broken elements because of the constant flux of developers. In addition, the control scheme is awful, making just interacting a pain. I learned it once, but I could not bare to learn it again.
VG:SOH: Lifesupport. SoE has all but killed the project as they've cut back on development considerably and its just a matter of time before they finally decide its not worth keeping on to bolster their station pass.
FFXI: Once again, cool, but a bit pointless for newcomers with the new one coming around, the billing system is wonky, and the PC client sucks tremendous balls in terms of graphical scaling (lets limit the clip plane on the PC version to something absurd because its like that in the PS2 one 8D) and general controls.
Eve: Really only entertaining if you A: REALLY like trade/craft B: Get your jollies from making other people miserable. IN addition, the amount of metagaming on the forums and with RL cash that goes on makes it the social equivalent of "Facebook in space". Considerable time sinks and isk disparity between players is also an issue. Very pretty, I wish I could like it, but contains glaring flaws for anyone who doesn't want to simply amass isk and grief people.
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!
"FE: A bit too much empty space and not enough to do with it at the moment."
That's not fair. The game is supposed to have a lot of free space and I love it that way. I like long travel times and plenty of space around me, it gives me a sense of realism which is lacking in other games. And it's not true that there's not enough to do. There is plenty to do, I play FE for 5 months (some days even 15 hours a day), and I did not run out of content, I still did not build the best cars. Soon they are gonna increase the cap again, add more recipes, and I still want to try out a charisma-based social character build for my next alt.
REALITY CHECK