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Another how do you play this thread
gauge2k3
Member Posts: 442
First let me say I have not played this game in several years. I just happened to be browsing the EVE forums as I've always wanted to like this game, so I tend to visit from time to time. This post is essentially my problem with the game.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1292834
To sum up what the OP in that post is saying. He basically saying that he keeps hearing via in game, and on online resources that pvping with low sp is possible to do successfully. However, he has never seen it done in practice.
Now, what is funny about this post is, not a single person actually offers any concrete advice. They all reference other material, which they may or may not have tried themselves, or have any proof of actually working. This is also my problem with the game. After SEVERAL guides, I had not seen success in pvp. Most people will attribute this to me being unintelligent, or slow, or some other deragatory term. All I can say in response is that I am indeed an intelligent person with a degree in computer science and a minor in mathematics. I do have the ability to follow instructions, and have played many PvP oriented games successfully.
It appears to me that these guides are written by people who do use the equipment they will say works, but they already have millions upon millions of sp. I think the OP of that guide was looking for someone to help him, who was also willing to put their neck out there and take credit for the solution. No one was wiling to do that in his post.
I still to this day wonder if it is possible to PvP successfully with lower sp/equipment. It doesn't make sense that you can logically, yet people disagree with this all over the place. I would imagine with tons of SP you would have to be pretty bad to lose to someone with very little sp? Or in the wrong ship at the time lol :P
I tired to make this post at litte of flaming as possible, and I hope we can have a decent discussion on whether or not it is possible to do this, and if it is how. I understand saying things over again isn't very productive to most people, but if you would keep references down to a minimum I would appreciatte that.
Last thing, that poster (if you read how long it has been since I played) is not me >< I only say this because someone would try to say it was lol.
Comments
While it is true that you can pvp effectively with little sp, it is not true that you can pvp effectively with little experience in the game. I have been in eve for quite some time now and have learned the ropes, and as such I know the tactics and countertactics I need to put in place to gain an edge in a particular battle. However, for a new player to just jump in to pvp, odds are they are going to have a rough time until they learn more about the mechanics and logistics of eve pvp.
If you really want to get immersed in to the experience, there are corporations out there that will instruct you on how it all works. A good example is Eve University, who offer courses and provide experts in the various fields of the game. It will still take some trial and error to get a feel for it yourself, but they definitely give you quite the helping hand.
I play in a sandbox.
It takes a long time to learn how to pvp in EvE, especially if you take the self-taught route.
A solo veteran player using a rookie character will be successful. A true rookie player will not. EvE pvp really isn't about your character skills, they're important but what's more important is that you understand the mechanics of the game at a very deep level. Especially when you're solo.
I went from being the most hardcore minerbear in EvE to being in the top 1000 on Battleclinic almost entirely solo - I know firsthand that it's not easy. But when I first got started in PvP I had the combat-SP equivilent of a two-month old player because I'd been doing almost nothing but industry for a year so I know it's possible. But like I said - it's about player skills - I might not have had much SP related to pew-pew but I did have a year of actual play time under my belt and I knew what sites to read and what all the ships did and what strats to use, etc.
Compared to the ships I was flying (I flew nothing but a Tristan for almost six months, mostly AFs and Inties for another six months after that. I still fly mostly T1 cruisers and BCs) I had tons of money. Dropping 10 mil on a good frigate fit is nothing when you have a billion ISK in the bank. And when I died horribly (and I did horribly. I died horribly lots and lots at first, just like everyone does) I literally had a dozen more ships fit up and ready to go in my home station, and a can full of spare implants for the odd times I got podded.
I'm not saying it's impossible for a true rookie player to get into pvp. It just takes patience (just like everything else in EvE), real-world skill, and money. There are lots of good corps out there that show new players the ropes - I really can't suggest a true new player trying to get into pvp solo unless they're absolutely sure that's what they want to do.
To me, that pretty much sums it up. TBH the only way to really be effective in PVP early on is be apart of a group. The game gives many advantages in terms of speed and escape to new players, but it's hard to really understand it without experience. Your style of game play is important too. You have to be willing to adapt to what the game gives you, and not force your notion of what PVP should be on the game.
if you think you can just train a few skills jump in a BS and go blast some people, it's probably going to end badly. You have to be aggresive, but also take the time to learn each ship and how to use it as part of a group. You will die a lot, but you will also learn and win too.
TBH, I think asking if you can PVP in this game is just the wrong question. It's really a question of whether you can find a group of people you enjoy flying with. In many ways that can be the hardest part of the game, especially as your skills and experience grow and you want to try new things.
I find it's helpful to have several different groups you can fly with. Friends from an old corp, your current corp, your alliance, all doing slightly different things in different areas.
I high-lighted this particular piece simply because this is your advantage when you started the bloodshed. I have yet to see a comprehensive guide to how a new(ish) player is able to compete in PvP much like the OP is seeking.
Personally I don't think it's possible for a new player do to so and that is simply because of too many obstacles. If it's not SP, it's ISK. If not ISK, it's experience. If not experience, it's SP. Vicious cycle, really, and one of the main reasons I couldn't get into the PvP despite my attraction to the game.
Pvping on day one will get you totally destroyed unless you fly around with more experienced players.
I don't care what anyone says, go ahead grab that rifter with 100k sp and go out into low sec and see how many targets you kill lol.
Most you could do is bait newbs in high sec or flip miners (that dont use hulks and T2 drones).
Don't get me wrong I love eve, I think that a good mmo should require a time investment.
Many people disagree with me, well... All I can say to them is there are other games they can play.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
One thing mentioned, in the thread you attributed, was Red vs. Blue. While there is no maximum SP limit, it is, to the best of my knowledge, intended for low sp requirements. There are others here who may have more experience with Red vs. Blue and how effective a low SP pilot might be. Also, there are a few videos out there showing frigate fights and such, so it seems there is some practical application to the spirit of red vs blue.
I think there have been improvements to make new players viable more quickly. Mainly, I consider the increased training speed (below 1.6mil SP i believe) and the 2 neural remaps you get as a new character. Still, as Rockgod99 pointed out, Day 1 PvP might not end too well for a person. Maybe "pvp'ing within your first month" is a better way to put it since that is the measurement of purchased game time. Doesn't sound as enticing though : (
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Yeah In one month you should be ok. I was solo pvping in a Vexor on my 30 day mark.
did I have a ton of targets? no, Did I have to run a lot? yeah, was it more frustrating than fun? yes.
But this is how I like my mmos. I like that carrot. I like that feeling that I completely suck and will have to invest major time skilling, farming and making social ties to make it in Eve.
Others disagree.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
OK, I can help here... (and by the way, you can never have enough threads like this)
The problem is no matter how amazing, clear and accurate a guide is... its only that, a guide! My experience with eve is that a guide is useless. As you have found out! They are good for certain things like statistics and number crunching, but other than that its difficult.
What you need to learn the things you want to learn is for someone to physically show you! In-game!.. Which simply means joining a good corp, but when joining a corp make it clear what you want to learn.
Is it possible to pvp with low SP + Low grade equipment. Definatly!... but solo?...and with only a few months experience playing Eve? thats tricky!... very tricky.
The truth is, I could take a low SP character, and make a cheap ship... armed with my extensive knowledge I could make this low SP character and cheap ship work for me. But you, in the same ship and the same character would struggle.
Pvp in Eve is not really about your character, and its not really about your ship (since its simply rock, paper, scissors) its more about acuiring intelligence (knowledge) on your opponent.
To illustrate... if you knew that there was a player in the belts in a low-sec system, and you knew what ship they were in and you knew exactly where in that system he is (or will be) then you could craft a 5 day old character to take him out, easily... But of course obtaining this information is very hard.
Eve provides you with tools and information on how to obtain this information but they are very tricky tools to learn without first making a thousand mistakes.
Eve just isnt a game thats very solo friendly... If, like me you've played for years and have means to gain ISK whenever then I can confidently solo... But its not something Id reccomend a new player to do. It takes huge amounts of patience, and a bit of luck.
I just wanted to add that there is more to Eve than just PvP !
Yes, its a very PvP centric game but huge chunks of the player base enjoy eve for years upon years and never once get involved with pvp.
So dont beleive that in order to enjoy eve you have to get into that side of things. I think I played Eve off an on for over a year before I decided to leave high-sec and venture into 0.0.. It was an eye opener and I kick myself now for waiting so long. But thats not to say I didnt enjoy my time in highsec... Making Safe ISK is very addictive
I think red vs blue migbht be what you want to get into. Gives you an instant "team", which is frequently lead by experienced FC's who know what they are doing and how to best organize fleets of small ships full of inexperienced pilots.
Just last month I flew with a guy who was brand new to EVE, barely understood anything about the game, yet his kill record in red vs blue was 30-6.
When not running ops in my corp he was roaming low sec (often solo) looking for targets in his frigate.
Just know, your results may vary and more likely than not, you're going to die a whole bunch of times until you figure the PVP out (or get someone to show you)
edit: One more thing, EVE is a complete MMO, therefore you have to master the 3 major elements of it to get the full experience.
PVP - Goes without saying, you should know how to fight, but you can avoid it.
PVE - You must learn to generate income somehow, either in game or through selling Plex's to fund your PVP habit.
Diplomacy - You need to find yourself strong team mates to help you learn the game and survive. You also need to learn who not to piss off or be willing to bear the consequences when you do.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I tries to use others guide as they most likely will be better then one that I would try to compose. Not neglecting the fact that it save time.
My advice would be:
Have patience, and find that target that is just as scared of a fight that you is. He could say "shit" and spam the warp to button one to many so he won't be able to start fighting you early enough.
So, have patience.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Well I thank you all for being honest. I see the trend is that a guide is rendered somewhat useless because the people writing them are writing them from the perspective of someone who already has experience in the scene. The general answer seems to be that someone should show you in game.
To retort on this, I found EVE to be very lonely. I thihnk we can all agree the new corp is good for getting answers and socializing but not so much for anything else. I tried joining a corp but that is actually very hard. You wouldn't think so with a server that has 30k+ logged in at once all the time lol.
Anyways, maybe there are people in here who have corps that are noobie(but not idiot) friendly that can offer a guy a hand
?
TBH I did like getting ISK more than pvping when I did play and I made it to a 2 laser mining barge thingy, forget the name. And I had an amarr hauler decked out with some cargo expanders. But back to the loneliness lol, just wasn't much fun without buddies.
It depends on the definition of successful.
If one defines it as being a "solo pwnmobile" that can take on multiple targets and come out alive (but severely scratched), then no.
But isn't that one month old character in a cheap T1 fitted frigate that locks down a target just long enough for his backup to arrive before he beats feet (or gets blown up), successful?
Isn't that one month old character in a frigate (or shuttle) that scouts ahead of the main fleet and spots the enemy in local (or on a gate) and saves the majority of the fleet from being ambushed, successful?
Isn't that one month old character in a frigate (or industrial) that transports ammo or much needed fittings to a fleet op that can change the outcome from "run away" to "we win," successful?
Isn't that one month old character in a frigate that happens upon an unescorted war dec industrial and blows it up, thus preventing either arrival of needed mods/ammo or an influx of income to your enemy, successful?
Isn't that one month old character in a (mining) frigate who mines/hauls ore, which is used to produce ships/mods/ammo and without the war machine grinds to a halt, successful?
Isn't that one month old character sitting in a station learning how to play the market creating ISK with which they can purchase more ships/mods/ammo, and at the same time creating competition for their enemies goods that drives down their profits, successful?
These are only a few examples. The underlying message is that PvP isn't just MWDing towards the closest ship and turning on your guns, though that is a major aspect of it. There are many things that a new player can do that both directly and indirectly affect PvP combat.
Indeed! And I agree, Eve is a game that hates new players... its any wonder that it picks up new players at all.
Its like there are a lot of people out there who WANT to like it, but cant quite figure out what it is that everyone else likes so much.. and since it picks up a steady amount of subscribers it almost feels as if your missing out on something.
And trust me, you will feel like this for some time in eve, Even if you do join a corp! But one day the penny drops... or several pennys drop over the course of a few days and suddenly your addicted.
I do agree with other posters though, Join the Red Vs Blue alliance.. and just listen and learn and follow people (thats literally all I did)
Or join Faction Warfare... again, wait until someone starts a fleet, join up, activate Eve voice and just listen, and follow instructions as best you can.
Its not long before the infecious obsession from others starts to wear off.
First off, being "successful" in pvp is a subjective definition. A lot depends on what you want to accomplish.
As others have said it is certainly possible to be useful in pvp with low sp/cheap ships, so long as you are working with others. Or you are just talking about beating the occasional moron or other solo lowbie in lowsec.
Regardless of what some claim, I do not believe a low sp/cheap gear character can beat a significantly higher sp/gear character outside of some very specific ship/gear mis-matches or other total fluke circumstances. (and ruling out catching someone on a horrid computer or dial up connection from outer Mongolia) Invariably the people I see advocating the "just get out there and pew-pew" strategy are the ones happily padding their killboards off the lemmings who buy it.
That said, the people are what make EVE...find a good pvp corp you fit in with and it is great fun.
I'd agree with this a lot.
Successful doesnt mean that you managed to blow up a ship... It might mean successfully terrorising a group of people without losing your own ship.
It could also just mean that when you turn up in a system, everyone reacts to your presense in someway.. either by docking up or just suddenly being cautious... being cautious constantly can be very draining and eventually you can force people to make mistakes.. they could be looking at their scanner too much and forget to switch on the repairer or something.
When I made my second character I made it with the intention of becoming a pirate, so I made a minmatar.. I was in a rifter fitted with just T1 equipment!.. I fitted a plate to the rifter instead of a repper. it was a new character with about 1m SP.
My first PVP encounter was solo with another rifter... This rifter was fully t2 fitted in the hands of a 15m SP charcter, and I won !
I'm feverishly trying to find the Killboard link, but it was so long ago now.... anyway, the point is I only survived because I had a plate and outlasted this guy.... I've had loads of encouters like this, some I win some I lose.. well, most I lost to begin with but as I learned more and more it was better.... but the point is, Just because your ship is laden with t2 gear and the pilot is High SP, does NOT guarantee a win for him.
That was indeed fun, and I was elated for weeks.. the pilot was actually a goonswarm so I couldnt have asked for a better start... but, it didnt bother him, we both had fun and he probably doesnt even remember it by now, however I have to say that I have enjoyed pvp with a fleet of people a hell of a lot more than I enjoyed that solo experience.
Once you start fighting for something that has meaning, an objective part of a larger plan thats more than yourself, thats when PvP in eve gets fun... not roaming around for hours upon hours waiting for a tasty morsel. For me at least.