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Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
HerculesSAS
Member Posts: 1,272
Unfortunately for SV, this is a case of "damned if we do, damned if we don't".
I have maintained all along about SV, that they were not really capable of producing a title of this magntitude. Others who have used the Atlas technology, and Unreal technology, have opted for instance based games. And these are developers who have some previous experience too.
Part of the problem of using a great technology is not only in knowing how to use it, but also how to write your product in a way that is optimal. I think personally, that this is the problem with MO right now. They didn't think much about the technology and just built the game using the tools -- and as a result, the 10 hitboxes, the data that's coming back and forth, the bad placement of client-side data (making the game super easy to hack), etc.... shows all poor design choices due to a lack of knowledge. Any experienced team wouldn't make these decisions, they would make differently bad decisions -- like a bad feature, or a boring game. Kinda like Darkfall.
Let's take a step back for a minute here. Go through history with SV and figure out what the problem is, logically. They didn't have beta forums, or a method on how to provide beta forums. A forum member had to come up with the script they are using in order to migrate people into beta forums. Their online store isn't managed by them -- it's a third party because they don't have the expertise to manage their own account information. Their patcher didn't work from the beginning, and despite many comments about it -- they opted to just adopt a 'fan' creation for their production patcher. And that still doesn't work.
Now looking at all the oversights we actually *know* about, and now we look at the desync issues, the crashing, the memory leaks, the invisible walls, the getting stuck in the middle of the world, the magically teleporting pets and MORE -- what are we to conclude? StarVault can send their guys over to the US, but I've not really heard of this before. It may be another line of BS -- and I wouldn't put it past them, as this is the health of their project is in jeopardy. Oddly enough, it is Epic China that created the network solution, so why is SV flying out to the US, when the support team is in China?
Again, damned if they do, damned if they don't. I think at this point the community is "demanding" answers, as many people who paid for the game already can't really play. So the master plan is to send their devs to Epic, hoping that something more is going to happen that they couldn't figure out over the phone or through teleconference. And yes, Epic, like any other major studio, provides WebEx access and works the problem remotely as if they were RIGHT THERE.
Migrating their code to a 'newer engine' is something funny too -- historically it's shown not to work either. What's the best example I can give you? Anybody know Duke Nukem Forever? It went on FOREVER, because they tried to migrate to the "newer engine" multiple times. Similarly, with Daikatana they did the same thing (for those of you who know the dumbass that is John Romero). But if they want to migrate their codebase into a new engine and expect it to work BETTER in the timespan of a month, or maybe even 3 -- let's say they were working on it since January -- you guys are in for a rude awakening.
Oddly enough, during the whole time the community has shown their want to "wait 6 more months", as if it would make a huge difference. I remember when release was in December, people said "6 more months!" It's March now, and they are still saying "6 more months!". Do the math folks -- you should have been saying "10 more months" back in December, because that's about what it's going to be by the time it releases. The point is, that the 6 months are arbitrary and really just equates to "this game is nowhere near completion", and the 6 months are just a revolving timeframe that keep moving up as the months click by. You'll see, next month when the game is coming out for release again, the community will say the same thing -- 6 more months -- as if it will make a difference.
And in the end, as I said -- SV is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Unfortunately, by taking on a task of the magnititude they envisioned, and not having the necessary experience to pull it off -- they put themselves in this position. Nobody else did it for them, and their promises from last year that included things like siege weapons, herbalism, epic monsters, etc -- have yet to show up in their build. They were great at producing hype, using scripted trailers, leaking information into IRC and then saying "it's Unofficial" but continuing to stroke those things as time went by, and making a very broad statement that has all the fans saying "well they are giving what they promised us!", whereby "promised us" equates to "basic" systems throughout the game.
I can't say I feel sorry for them, but as I've sat on the sidelines for months watching, it's provided a great source of entertainment and irony, and all the steps that Mourning took, that Dark and Light took, SV seems to be taking a step further. And while I could be wrong about all of this, my guesses are as listed above -- it will be interesting to see if the history of this MMO will be one for the wall of shame, and we all look back and sigh as the "next big thing" comes out with promises like SV made. At least we'll hopefully have wisened up about our expectations, about the relevance of developer experience, and about the ambitious nature of MMOs, ESPECIALLY from indy studios.
Time will tell.
Comments
Good write up.
Can't argue with the OP, pretty much spot on however I can't help but root for them, guess I just favor underdogs and dreamers.
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I like to root for the underdogs also, but problem is, from the bad experiences I have had with Starvault (ie taking off the weekends and leaving the servers down; taking 2 week vacation after releasing a game breaking patch during Christmas; etc) I refuse to root for them.
I am now following Xsyon and I hope that game is good and is not full of lies like Mortal Online was. If that happens over at that game, i think I will go back to FPS shooters. I am really sick of these indie companies coming out, saying they will have X, Y and Z and when it actually happens, we find out it was all lies and hype. Being an "indie" company is no excuse for releasing a broken and incomplete product.
I am also sick of the blind support that some of the fans give these indie companies, that is what really bothers me. The only thing they believe is hope and potential while their game is complete garbage... I just do not understand loyalty a supporter gives to a game and a company that has lied repeatedly to them...
The fans say "well that is what they promised at launch" yet they release completely broken and incomplete (basic/placeholder) systems and the fans just ignore it and continually support them... 
I am sorta praying they go bankrupt and a major studio or publisher buys the game for dirt cheap.
They delayed it another month, I am guessing it will launch January 2011.
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Everyone I know hopes that happens. They need a solid publisher backing them, Starvault needs to do more shopping around if the only thing they can find are "carebear" publishers.
I don't think any publishers are interested in a game that has no hope of turning a long term profit, or has any customer retention plans.
I mean seriously, when you have a CEO who basically says "if you don't buy this game you'll never see another like it!", and then right after says, "well, you have to be hardcore to play our game", the odds are high that the business plan was never much of a consideration for the guy who got to make a video game company because his dad paid for it.
Honestly, having a PvP sandbox MMO is something that if you didn't design it right, do everything pretty well and try to go according to a roadmap that 'hits' all the ideas to ensure you have recurring subscriptions coming in, and not leaving due to frustration (ie, thieving), then there is a good sign you were doomed from the start.
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Things are definitely looking bleak for this project, but I am still hopeful they will pull it off. I really want these guys to succeed.
I don't think handing the game off to different developers would help things. The problem is that any major developer that picks the game up would completely change the formula, so the last thing we would want is for them to go bankrupt. If they are forced to sell it off to some big name developer, we will eventually get a game that is VERY different from the Mortal Online we were all hoping for.
I would use the 'quote' function, but it's atrocious so I won't
But to reply to you BelegStrongbow, I think that the only thing worth buying is *some* of the art assets. The crafting system, the skills system, etc... it's fully fleshed out as it is, and the amount of work it will take to re-engineer that to be balanced and make it work well.... they are better off starting from scratch rather than taking somebody else's bad ideas and trying to co-opt them. The crafting system is the only thing to write home about, and it's not overly complicated to program over again -- certainly not worth buying. It's basically "X item" used with "Y item" yields "Z item". The choices are endless in MO because of how many choices you get, but since there's no balance to any of it -- it's a total waste and takes more work to use.
That's why the art is the only thing that's worthwhile, unfortunately. I have to credit their art team for that -- the animations are mediocre but the level design isn't too bad, and cleaning it up and using higher textures it could easily be adopted to something else -- perhaps even another "WOW" type game, where a publisher thinks they can make money.
But MO as it is can't make a dime for a long term, and it's why even if all the bugs were fixed and desync was gone -- the game isn't worth playing because I just don't see it standing the test of time. And in an MMO if I'm going to invest my time and effort, I don't want it to be shut down like a Tabula Rasa or Shadowbane. And arguably, both of those games were better designed than MO.
This must be your masterpiece... A culmination of everything you have put on these forums.
Half of it is rumor, and the other half is misinterpretation of posts by SV. (Migrating to a newer engine? Really?)
It is not worth discussing.
I will start another lesson for you though...
Who out there, in the entire world, will make a sandbox game similar to MO? Everyone has a few on their mind... some are already released, others are still in Beta. But how many compared to the rest of the industry?
You speak of experience, programming skill, and industry standards... but how many companies with the experience are trying to release a Sandbox MMO? How many people with the programming skill are even working on a project, much less an MMORPG? What good are industry standards when no one in the industry will attempt a game like this?
Your critique and complaints might have valid points... but you are ridiculing the individuals who are trying to DO something about it. Do you even see that? Everyone here wants to get across a river... and when someone comes to build a bridge... you decide to belittle them because you knew someone who could do it better. Well... why don't you go get them?
You want a good Sandbox MMO... yet out of the whole world a few people pick up different projects... and you decide to mock their methods, efforts, and attempts.
Why? Because it doesn't fit your standards?
Hey... I have some information for you... apparently none of the MMOs out there are fitting your standards because you are STILL HERE.
The people who developed UO are no longer around... and the individuals with the knowledge and know-how on "Sandbox MMO Development" are... guess what... not working on Sandbox MMOs.
They are working on Themepark MMOs like Warcraft, Aion, or SWtoR to feed their families and send their kids to college. Individuals with the ability, knowledge, and experience are not using it. Undoubtedly some hate their current projects, but don't want to risk working on something that might not help them provide for themselves or their families.
I don't blame them... but I am certainly not going to kick the individuals who come after them that try to fill their shoes. I'm not going to push them away from making something WE ALL WANT regardless of how much "better it could have been".
Things could always have been better... that is a safe argument for anyone to make if they don't want to appear stupid. Until somebody does something... mistakes and all... you will never get what you want. Every Indy developer that comes along might fail, or not produce a product the larger companies are capable of doing... but without them we won't see a sandbox MMORPG for decades.
You fight for the perfect project or you demand there be nothing at all.
You should be fighting for something just a little bit better than what we currently have now.
The devs working on Duke Nukem? They wore pants. So obviously, if you wear pants your game will never come out.
If you do not solely focus on addiction and customer retention, your game will fail.
If you comply with Swedish work laws, your company should go under.
If you try to start an indie software development company out of your garage like how blizzard and microsoft were created, you will fail because only large developers like blizzard and microsoft can succeed at developing software.
People that want smaller innovative companies to succeed are all rabid fanboys with no realistic eye for the world. They should all succumb to rampant negativity because that's how I am and just look how happy it's made me.
The next time I want to point out a list of good examples for a wide range of formal and informal logical fallacies, I'll link this thread. Yeah the game will probably fail and the fanboys will all be disillusioned, it's innovative and has a slim amount of backing. But at least the attempt to emulate intelligent discourse by the trolls here is providing some amount of entertainment.
Why on earth do you argue with him? What a waste of time.
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It is a beacon of light in a forum full of vacuous crap.
I am not entirely certain what is the purpose of this thread, but I blame it on my lack of competance when it comes to English language. Hence, I'll go by what I managed to gather from it. The argument goes that a person using any innate logical sense is to find out that Star Vault are unable to produce even the most simple of features, in or about the game. Therefore, it follows, they are not in possession of the required talent and expertise to fulfil a project of the magnitude they've chosen. As I have pointed out, I do, in a sense, agree with this sentiment not that I would necessarily call it logical. However, I would like to dissect this argument further and see whether there would be those long sought-after beacons of light.
I'll start with the latest argument, that of sending programmers to Epic Games, creator of their game engine, to co-operate and iron out network code. You wonder why they are sending their coders to USA when the technology is made in China as well as question whether this kind of a support even does exist. The first of these question is answered with relative ease by perusing Epic Games' Atlas Technology page. It quite clearly states how they "offer multi-site support in Shanghai and Seattle." Then to that other question, does there exist a support where you can actually send coders to learn from the makers of the engine. That I do not know, and, thus, won't even argue as I am in no possession of industry experience to know what are common practices. In ordinary language semantics, thou, full support would refer to a wide range of support modules, even such integration as purpoted here by CEO of Star Vault. And knowing human nature, actual human presence is a different thing than having someone over at video conference.
The second is the acceptance of constant delays. As you correctly point out, there has been a vast number of players who have said that in three months time, six months time or years time the game would fully reach its potential. We all do know this. Does this hold any truth to it, is therefore the genuine question you are posing and one that is nigh impossible to answer. Their track record isn't the strongest one, that's for certain. Then again, when the game is at such a raw state adding one key feature would make a whole lot of difference. Say, with actually functional AI and Pathfinding there would maybe exist a reason to believe that they can turn the tide. I would imagine that these are also features that will come in one triumphant chunk, which likely is the argument of those supporting the game feverishly. You are therefore having a more solid of the two arguments, but, then again, others can claim faultyness of inductive logics and remind us from Russelian turkey. And, in a sense, the time argument will always be valid for, as they say, as long as there is time there is hope.
The rest of your arguments are of more personal nature and as it is highly subjective I cannot but say that I do mostly agree with you, save with Mourning reference. That other game companies have adopted more instanced approach is something that was likely their design choice, not a limitation set by the game engine as was pointed out on another thread a few weeks back (i.e. Atlas does support seamless worlds). And finally, from that upgrading to newer engine which, I interpret, is once again a language mess-up; unfortunate and unprofessional in a sense (if you wish to communicate in English, get someone who speaks English!) but hardly as game breaking as you are seeing it. I could imagine that he simply means that there are some updates that allow you additional features rather than a new version of the engine which would require you to update your older features.
It's not worth discussing, but you spent half a page discussing it. Gotcha.
Building a game isn't the equivalent of building "indy music". You can't sit in your garage and come up with something miraculous in programming and game design if you've never done it before. And therein lies the problem -- lies.
Lies, you say? Yes, lies. Henrik had touted his "previous work on MMOs" as a point to his experience. We know now that this was totally untrue. He touted features that were never going to make release, ideas that weren't even wholly developed, and enticing teaser videos to showcase a product that had barely started development. Sure, I bought into the hype, I liked the ideas on paper, and I wanted to play the next UO. Not only is MO *not* the next UO, it's not even playable. And that in a nutshell, is why I'm still here. If SV had refunded my money, my interest in this game would have waned a LONG time ago. But they decided to keep my money -- and with that, they kept my attention, and got my criticism.
The problem here lies not with the idea that they are making a sandbox MMO -- I can applaud them for trying. The problem is that they have no business plan for the game, at ALL. Most people agree on this point too. You can make something in a niche market profitable, it's just not easy and has to be planned out meticulously. The easier road is to make a mainstream product like WOW, but with the crowded nature of that market, niche products are a great idea too.
Really, your second to last line says it all for ME -- you should fight for the perfect project -- and I agree. And I have pointed out time and time again where the problems in MO lie, what could be done to rectify it, and how it could be done. Heck, I even gave them code to start on making a patching software that would work properly. They don't have the ABILITY to make that perfect project, and while I can commend you on cheering them on for trying, I personally think they are trying to push a half baked product to a overly excited crowd, only to let them down because they didn't push for the "fight" to get a better product.
If you accept garbage, you will be given garbage. And MO sad to say, is falling right into that description.
Agreed X 1000!!!
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These are the problems. The rest of the post is really just you telling a cool story. Agree on the above tho.
Agreed X 1000!!!
Agreed X 1000!!!
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Y'all need to quit whining and root for Earthrise. I know I wouldn't make a sandbox game when the sandbox community itself isn't even sure of what it wants - or is never completely satisfied, one or the other.
But MO is a joke, I have to admit. From what I've seen and heard.
Very good writeup but I dont feel a bit sorry for them. They duped me out of my money, over 6 months ago, and I still have no game that is worth playing. And they are refusing to return my money.
The thing is I wouldnt mind Starvault and their efforts to create a sandbox game, actually I would commend them for trying to undertake the herculean task of creating a sandbox MMOG. However when they duped me out of 60€ for it, that is when they crossed the line. Basically what has happend is that they have charged full price for a game and then held on to those money for 6+ months without a possibility for refund.
That is borderline scam, in my book, and made them lose any kind of credibility when they are saying that they want to realise their "dream" or "vision". They are in it for the money, like any other MMOG developer, and are doing it using shady bussiness practices and in the process hurting the already damaged reputation of sandbox MMOGs.
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WTF! I mean really do you know any better and know how to make MO any better? Can you actually code it better then what they are doing? I HIGHLY doubt so. I don't get people who make a list of problems and come up with solutions when it is not at all that simple at ALL.
Developing a game is A LOT hardier then it seems especially one such as a seamless world. We are talking about something that is not easy to do and not many people know how to make a good seamless world. On top of that they are trying something totally new and different that yet again has not really been done before.
Also the money excuse is SOOOO LAME! If you pay for something that is YOUR FAULT! You are taking that money and investing something that is a not for sure. I invested money into their game and yes they have screwed me over. SO WHAT! I knew what the risk was involved when I typed my credit card numbers in and I knew I might not even play this game after launch. However I wanted to try something new and I wanted to help out. So shut up with the money excuses.
Ohh and the CEO was right! No one will want to create such a game that MO is trying to be. It is a very risky idea and has a niche crowd that is smaller then probably the population of my city which is fairly small. You can complain and argue about how that is not true but in all honesty it is. Go to the GDC and ask the devs if they would create a game such as MO. Some will say yes but they would also say that it will not have a huge following nor have a huge profit. People are simply not ready for something so straight forward and sorry to say this hardcore as MO is.
To make this more easier to understand why MO is really fighting a losing battle I will list some of the things that goes against it.
It is a skill based game something that is not new but however something that not to many people like.
It is FFA full loot again something not new but however once again something that not many people like at all.
You have no map again something not new but however once again something that not many people like at all.
Upon death you are not instantly returned to some sort of village or something of that nature instead you must find your self a priest. This is something that is considered hardcore and if you think it is not then you are nuts.
There is no instant travel everything is walking or riding meaning this is not really a casual friendly game in fact nothing about this game that I can think of is casual friendly. Meaning MO is cutting a HUGE portion of costumers.
Lets be honest here the devs are not the only reason why this game might be a total failure. There is A LOT of other factors in place either then the devs and I wish more people would see that. That is why I do not give the SV such a hard time cause I actually understand the factors that are against them and I appreciate the amount of work they have done to actually try to make such a game.
So good job SV and I wish the best of luck to them.
I would get a lawyer to write up a legal document to send to them and you will get a refund. Since you said before that you couldn't get a refund from your credit card, that is the only other option I can think of. Yes it is a borderline scam to sell a product for full price, saying it comes out in a few months (September) and then pushing it back another 6 months, while not seeing any exact deadline.
That does sound like a scam and I hope you get your money back.
To the last response, simply -- "Can I code it better?"
My answer is -- probably. I don't know UnrealScript but if I took the time to learn it, it's principles are similar to programming something in basically any language. And that's a process I manage on a daily basis.
The other things, artwork, animations, level building, etc -- I would probably fail at miserably. And then the key component -- having a rich dad -- well, that kind of puts it out of my league. Right now I'm saving for a house, I have a kid with another on the way, and making an MMO isn't my specialty nor do I have the funding to do it.
But I do manage projects for a living -- enterprise systems that scale to more users currently, than MO is handling. Internally we services about 17,000 users, in addition to the external customers we have as well. Sadly, it's financial enterprise systems but in my world, it has to work from the beginning -- and the thought of throwing it all away and starting from scratch is a career ender. That's why I'm well paid to do what I do, and I'm actively recruited by other firms on a regular basis.
Money for this game however, is not the reason I'm annoyed at the situation. It's the fact that they wouldn't refund my money -- when I had no product. I did however, get my box in the mail, but that was about 4 months after I asked for the refund. It's the principle of the matter.
The CEO was right about one thing -- nobody will want to create THIS game. Because *this* game is a horribly designed and even more poorly executed piece of software that has no business plan and no potential for retention, adaptation, and growth. When barely 50 people are online (after the server gets rebooted or crashes), it can *barely* handle that load. And people think a few days with Epic will solve what I believe to be core design problems... they are sorely mistaken. What they are doing now, is like taking a webpage that was written in HTML4.0, and trying to adopt it into HTML5. It will take a *lot* of work, and more than a month will provide them for. Because that "webpage" is humungous, and making it work with all the NEW features of HTML5 is going to take a LONG time to work. And that's not on just one level -- they are upgrading not only their network solution to a newer version, they are upgrading their GAME ENGINE TOO.
The things you listed that MO has going against it are kind of pointless, to be honest -- a good business plan can take features that may not work in the "average" MMO and make them work in a niche one. EVE did it successfully, but they were lucky they started in an era where the competition was much lower than it is now. They also started out a LOT smaller than MO is currently trying to be. The problem is, since they didn't bother to consider the business part of the game, the entire design is basically "I liked this in UO, let's put it in!" as their entire design philosophy. This is due mostly, to immaturity and inexperience. Where else can you go on the web where you find developers actively arguing with forum members, trying to insult them and acting like children? Nowhere else but in MO.
Sadly, the reason MO fails is *not* because of the quality of the code, or the programmers. The reason they are failing now, and will continue to -- is because of their management. When you have somebody who was 'gifted' the entire business because his dad gave him cash to start it, you don't have somebody who worked their way up through the years to understand every facet of business and how to mitigate gains and losses of cash, and to ensure service reliability and account retention -- especially in a online service that they are offering.
If you want SV to be successful, some "uber" hardcore things HAVE to be cut. Theiving may be one for now, until they come up with a system that isn't so imbalanced. Why? Because this is a BUSINESS FIRST, and people will quit if they find themselves continually harassed by thieves -- and that means a loss of revenue. Sure, that may not be "hardcore" enough for a lot of folks here -- and god knows, I loved thievery in UO -- but these systems are a detractor from account retention. There has to be a dividing line, and a core design that looks at both the competitive nature of the game, includes "sandbox" elements that they want, but also keeps players playing and coming back every time.
In MO, there's nothing to "come back for" that isn't better in Darkfall. And that game sucks too.