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General: Community Spotlight: Why Not Just Skip the Leveling Up Part?
MikeB
Community ManagerAdministrator RarePosts: 6,555
This week’s Community Spotlight focuses on the thread “Why not just skip the leveling up part?” by Athecar. In the original post, Athecar compares the leveling up track to an “elongated tutorial,” but he feels it goes on too long, and wonders why we can’t just “skip the leveling up part.” Or at least reduce it to about a dozen levels, making the point that most of us have already done the leveling up bit countless times and it is getting a bit old.
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Read this week's Community Spotlight here.
Comments
If you are going to take that attitude, why play a MMO? Isn't a FPS exactly what you are looking for?
While I am no fan of level systems, skill systems would elicit the same complaint from this guy. He belongs in a FPS.
The worst thing you can do to a MMO is speed up advancement because usually players quickly get tired of what end game content there is. All you have to do is look at many of the releases in the past two years.
as i have said in the other thread i have probably done more and been more successful in MMOs than 95% of the scrubs on this forum, so I think i have a pretty good idea of what im looking for.
with that said.
show me an FPS with the content of say EQ2 or WoW where i can interact with thousands on a server and I will happily leave the MMO genre.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
so then if you got rid of the need for the developers to waste time with 10000 "kill X, Y and Z mob and return to me". they could solely focus on endgame content for ALL playstyles.
the Evil Raider that outgears you and makes you cry for welfare epics on the forums.
When I first saw this thread, the first thing that came to mind was the system similar to SWG when it originally came out. There were no levels really and you just gained XP and stuff to level up different skills.
What's up with this when you click the link to the article?
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I got the same warning.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
Yes, imao that's the better way to "level up", which is necessary learn to play your class/char good.
Look at GW, there you learn through the PVE for the PVP part of the game.
Yes, GW is a good example of an alternative way to do things, I mentioned it in the thread as well.
In Guild Wars, it was possible with a template character of choice to jump from the start to 'endgame' content which consisted of the high level PvP arenas.
In fact, there was a split between the PvE content and the PvP content: the PvP endgame content could be jumped to rightaway - with a template char of chosen class and a limited range of skills. if you wanted to do the PvE content - explore the world, do the quests, hunt the zones for all the different skills that existed, then you had to follow the regular path with leveling your starter char and so on.
This catered to both of the groups, the ones who wanted to dive into the endgame PvP right away from the start but weren't that much interested in questing, level grinding and exploring the world and the lore, and the other group who were interested in exactly that. Of course, when you followed the regular path you would at the end have more skills collected. But that didn't mean you could easily defeat someone who went into PvP with a premade char right from the start, far from.
But I found Daitengu's post (post #140) interesting too, he talked about why the (character) leveling as it is today is there in the first place, where it comes from and such.
PS: I got the same 'bad page' alert when I click on the link to the article, something wrong with it?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I suppose if there's a value to the process of slowly leveling up and gradually earning more skills, getting more powerful etc is the fact that you learn to play your class from the ground up.
I'm sure whatever MMO we're playing (LOTRO in my case) we've all met the power-leveled players who don't really know how to play their class well, and so giving players all the power and all the skills from the get go is perhaps not such a good thing, there's needs to be some sort of gradual build-up of your character methinks
I think the level up process is outdated and needs something more refreshing. I can learn my class from 1 to 10, I don't need to play for 50+ levels to figure out what I am suppose to do. If learning a class is such a need, make it where there are only something like 20 levels *similar to GWs* but make is so you have to party most of the time so you have to learn how your class works in groups. Also, like it was mentioned before, if companies didnt have to bother with the pointless quest lines then they could work on the end game most of the time (which is what people want anyway) and make it good.
But I would be surprised if a company (besides GWs) to make this attempt anytime soon. Even GW2 is going to a more traditional type of MMO. So apparently they arn't going to make the same attempt twice.
I'd be much more interested in an MMO which didn't have a level-cap at all.
The whole topic is just another example of the instant gratification generation who have been raised on the whole 'the real game game begins at the endgame' koolaid. Developers that subscribe to this endgame ideaology need to be kicked in the balls. The 'real game' should begin the second my bloody characters spawns into the game for the first time. The 'real game' shouldn't be some whack-a-mole skninner box geal treadmill.
About warning ,probably one of tne adverts/banners ,same thing happened friday at anandtech.com ,be careful .Use script blocker with your browser .
Leveling is fine IF it isn't mindless grinding and goes at the right pace and also IF you are reward substantially with each level. I think EQ2 does well here, always giving abilities at just about every level, even if it is just an upgrade. I remember hating the odd levels in WoW because you didn't get anything but stat increases.
Why not skip it? Because RPGs are more about the path to get there than actually getting there. An evolvement of your character is a central focus point of RPGs, so much that if you take it away I would not consider it to be an RPG.
So: Early Game - Mid Game - End Game are all important aspects and what makes a game fun is if the path from Early Game to End Game is a fun experience or not.
End Game is probably more important then the other two because that is where you will end up eventually (if you stick to the game) but that is not a reason to neglect the other two.
My gaming blog
The "leveling up" helps to get to know your class, the lore ...and i like it. I am focused on endgame but i like spending 1-2 months leveling. I like reading quests. I like to progress trough different new zones. I like I like
Sorry for my english
I think the problem is that most games force you to level to enjoy the good parts of the game. Bottom line, leveling isn't fun in MMORPGs. If leveling was actually fun then this wouldn't be a problem. The fun part of MMORPGs would be the process getting there, and not as much the reward of doing it.
This statement is false.
To everyone that thinks that the real game start at "End game".
GTFO of MMORPG games!! There, I said it.
My suggestion... Go back to your console/FPS/RTS games where you obviously belong/come from.
RPG's have always been & always will be about leveling/progression! If you don't want that, what the hell are you doing here? The damn place is called MMORPG.com ffs...
yeah instead of "whack-a-mole skinner box gear treadmil" it should be a "whack-a-mole skinner box LEVEL treadmil"
kid, what are you talking about?
No seriously, the whole idea od "leveling" + "endgame" goes against the very multiplayer persistent medium that is MMOs. It stratifies players into artificial little "level boxes" from which they cannot communicate (either in group PvE or PvP) and it enforces the "grind" - basically when you play the game and are not actually having fun - you play it so you might have fun later, presumably at "endgame" or when you catch up with your pals.
Imo GW has absolutely the best (so far) approach to the RPG + MMO thing. You advance your characters - but horizontally instead of vertically. An almost perfect noob can join vets in PvE or try to fight them in PvP. There is a definite sense of progression there but it is not a dumb carrot-on-a-stick treadmil.
And yes, it is quite perfectly possible to have a truly massively multiplayer online game, and yes even a sandbox one, which uses a GW character progression model. Just imagine what games like Darkfall or EVE would be like if your character advanced in a way similar to GW...
What is truly sad is that in pen-and-paper RPGs this whole discussion has been done and over with many many years, if not decades ago.. Yes, it is possible to have a non-linear character advancement scheme and yes, a RPG does not have to depend solely on the size of your level (read number of HPs or stat levels). A good example from a similar gaming genre is CCG-s and especially Magic The Gathering. You do not get "better cards" by collecting them (in translation - advancing) - you get more cards to choose from when building your deck - and whaddayaknow? It turns out to be much more satisfying than getting +1, +1, +1......
However it is much easier for the devs do design and balance a +1, +1, +1... progression instead of a multi-dimensional lateral one. As long as the players are not bored with +1, +1, +1 dinging they'll keep churning out such RPGs with linear and ultimately deeply unsatisfying progression. Why should they bother anyway when the public is quite happy with ding ding ding treadmills?
Blyeh, it seems even GW is falling to this "RPG = leveling" BS... GW 2 is advertised with "more levels!" It is just plain sad - they were on the right track, as demonstrated by the success of their first model, and now they are falling into the ratrace leveling hole. I've been playing RPGs from the first D&D and I've been following the development of the RPG systems from the very start... What sickens me the most is how disgustingly primitive the "RPG" in "MMORPG" turned out to be. Imo only CCP might have a shot at something quality and non-grindy with their "World of Darkness" since they've shown a strong commitment to non-linear RPG advancement in the past and WhiteWolf's pen-and-paper RPG system is quite close to this.
I thought the painfully long levelling system in mmorpg's was there to make us buy subscriptions month after month before we reach the end game content?
Could be wrong though.
Why are there so many cutesie, fantasy, childish MMO's. Give me blood, gore and a long lasting challenge. I don't need my hand being held along the way. Thanks.
Yes, but it is a deeply flawed system. Players either reach the "endgame" and unsub or they get frustrated with not being able to reach the "endgame" and unsub.
Actually the leveling+endgame is a game-life model straight out of single-player non-subscription games. You consume the content that you bought and then you buy another game. It is pathetic that major MMORPG developers are still stuck on this totally outdated model. The whole concept of "ending the game" should be abolished from MMO design dictionary. The goal should be to make the game enjoyable INDEFINITELY - as it is. And the only way to provide enough fresh content so the players can consume it INDEFINITELY is by allowing the players to create the content for themselves and each other. In short, sandbox - or whatever evolves out of that ancient concept (tho i'm losing hope.. if sandboxes got 10% of the money spent into developing leveling+endgame models, who knows where would we be now?)
Just look at Facebook or Youtube - the devs have just created a framework for the player-created content and they don't have to bother with who likes what or is there going to be enough content for the customers to stick around. This is called Web 2.0 in IT parlance. It is absolutelly mind-boggling that MMOs are still firmly stuck in Web 1.0 era (WE give you the content!) while 10 years ago it was considered that MMORPGs will be the trailblazers of this new user-created content world. I blame WoW/EQ plague for this.
you forgot that they need some to add any endgame content at all, since they've released the game way to early
well....i'd like to replay with this sentence to allmost any thread:
Different MMOs for different people. i don't care if there are some MMOs without the leveling up part. Let them deliever some instant action to those who wish for it. Just hoping there won't be a "blockbuster" like WoW among them making all other Developers copying them(i know WoW did and does copy a lot too, not the place to discuss here
).
Sorry for my english
whilee i like to hit max level, unlock every skil onc i hit max i tend to shelve the character because their nothing to incentivize at max level, loot is ransitory, powers and skills are permant so for me "level less" would be borning
If there was a big enough group that wanted an "End game only" MMOG it sounds like that would be a huge profit maker for developers and publishers. How many max level dungeons/raids do most MMOGs have? Between five or ten? A developer could just make a game with around five raid and PVP maps and a hub for people to meet at and access auction houses. Not having to create a world for players to level and explore in would cut the time and cost to develop a game by a huge portion.
Not sure if this type of game would work with a subscription model but it could always charge for future maps to profit.
I have to agree with this. Though Nekrataal put it a bit more... colorfully.
This is why I left WoW, Blizzard was making it easier and easier to get to 80 and to do stuff at 80. So the game became boring to me as it seemed less and less like an mmorpg. Heck, I don't even need mounts anymore really can instant port to any bg or instance now from where ever. Sheesh....
A good thing about leveling games is that I can see a distinct path to progression. I know I start here and have to progress to there. In a game like EVE, I'll always be behind the curve because the vets will always have more skills than I will. Since skillups are done real time, it's not possible for me to ever catch up.
Now in Earth & Beyond, I liked the leveling system. The cap was 150, which sounds high, but it was broke up into 50 combat, trade and explore levels. Decide to do a bit of mining? You're earning explore xp. Selling your loot from a long play session? Earning trade xp there. So no matter what I felt like doing, I was always progressing in some way.