Casuals ALWAYS state they ARE forced to ride it, becuase they always state they have to get the SAME rewards.
You bring up a valid point, but not one that only Casuals tend to bring up; the "I'm [forced] to do something" argument.
Nobody is forced to group, or forced to quest, or forced to PvP and raid. Nobody forces anyone to *need* the best things in the game... If you don't have time to keep up with raiding, and will never attempt PvP leaderboards - what is that ultimate gear setup to you beyond mental assurance that you're statistically equal?
People on both sides have very bad habits when it comes to self-masochism. There's plenty of others that simply won't *do* content that doesn't interest them, but others [force themselves] to be perfectionist whether they have the time to do so or not. Man, all the people that quit LotRO because they couldn't get the survival title for never dying pre-50.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
I think you will find that the words greed and envy are much better suited today.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Big Trophy vs Small Trophy? Lol.
More like Big Trophy with "You have a useless achievment" vs Big Trophy. Real fair.
A big problem here is identifying the whiners from the people who have real, valid concerns for a game.
For example - player A thinks that there is very little content between levels 20 and 30 of MMO X.
Player B thinks everything's fine, he is 13 using his parents' money and his "studying time" to play the game (for 25 hours a day - his parents are so proud).
Player C thinks the grind is too long and hard (currently at level 15) and thinks that the exp needed should be reduced.
From just looking at it, what they could do is solve player A's problem by adding in some content between levels 20 and 30. But depending on how the masses sway between the types A, B, and C (and whatever other player types you could come up with) the developers might have to take notice (80% is one type),they might take some notice, and have a community representative tell the people that "they're working on it" (roughly 30% between 3, or 40% between two), or they might take no notice at all (roughly even between many different ones)
It's one of those things where you need a million people to all shout, at once, "PALADINS NEED NERFS LOL" to make a company take notice.
Anyway, people will always have their own opinions about things, you just have to hope that the majority are sensible and won't shout out "Hey! That guy won something! I want something just as good, but without the effort that HE went through!"
So yeah, good luck changing stupidity -_-
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Are you asking if it's not like that? Why the question mark? I mean, maybe thinking is too hard for you, but it seems to me that there are varying raid difficulties in WoW and the easier difficulties do tend to give inferior rewards.
Casuals ALWAYS state they ARE forced to ride it, becuase they always state they have to get the SAME rewards.
You want the SAME trophy as Lance Armstrong, but you want to ride around the block to get it? And you think Lance Armstrong would STILL be just as rewarded by riding 2,200 miles to get the EXACT same trophy?
No, no and NO!
No, no and no.
You are the only one actually saying this and it is getting tiresome and silly.
If Lance Armstrong only cared about some stupid trophy then I would pitty him just as much.
The problem the 'hardcore' have is that they think that what they are doing is something truly important. The casuals want to do the fun stuff in games and if gear or XP is a tool required to start up on the fun tasks then they see no reasons why these tools should be made inaccessible because the 'hardcore' have illussions of grandeur.
The 'hardcore' are like someone telling Lance Armstrong that he cannot ride a bike until he builds it himself from raw materials and also weaves his own jerseys.
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
So how do you institute this compromise in an FFA PvP game withotu wrecking the fun for the FFP PvP'ers?
The simple answer is, you can't.
but you CAN make the game fun for care bears, which is exactly my point.
compromise in this case helps the casual, hurts the hardcore.
What does the FFA player get out of any compromise?
Keep in mind the FFA Player only wants ONE thing to make the game fun. The ability to kill anyone, anywhere, at any time. That's it. They really, really, really, don't want anything else to make the game fun.
Now, where's your compromise that helps the FFA player?
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Are you asking if it's not like that? Why the question mark? I mean, maybe thinking is too hard for you, but it seems to me that there are varying raid difficulties in WoW and the easier difficulties do tend to give inferior rewards.
And the bad players can do both the "easier difficulties" and harder difficulties.
What is there for good players, the people doing BWL and AQ and Naxx before they made the zones dumb?
No content in the game for any of the good players anymore. Unless you want useless achievments for some reason because the bad players whined so much that they had to hand out the same gear to everyone.
Casuals ALWAYS state they ARE forced to ride it, becuase they always state they have to get the SAME rewards.
You want the SAME trophy as Lance Armstrong, but you want to ride around the block to get it? And you think Lance Armstrong would STILL be just as rewarded by riding 2,200 miles to get the EXACT same trophy?
No, no and NO!
No, no and no.
You are the only one actually saying this and it is getting tiresome and silly.
If Lance Armstrong only cared about some stupid trophy then I would pitty him just as much.
The problem the 'hardcore' have is that they think that what they are doing is something truly important. The casuals want to do the fun stuff in games and if gear or XP is a tool required to start up on the fun tasks then they see no reasons why these tools should be made inaccessible because the 'hardcore' have illussions of grandeur.
The 'hardcore' are like someone telling Lance Armstrong that he cannot ride a bike until he builds it himself from raw materials and also weaves his own jerseys.
FFA PvP games should never be about gear, so the analogy shouldn't apply. If you play a FFA PvP game where gear is a determinant in winning, and as a result gear grinds to succeed is a reality, then you're playing the wrong game or playing for the wrong reasons.
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Are you asking if it's not like that? Why the question mark? I mean, maybe thinking is too hard for you, but it seems to me that there are varying raid difficulties in WoW and the easier difficulties do tend to give inferior rewards.
And the bad players can do both the "easier difficulties" and harder difficulties.
They can do it, but they won't succeed. Thus the absolute best gear will be available to good, dedicated players and the inferior gear will be available to bad players.
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Big Trophy vs Small Trophy? Lol.
More like Big Trophy with "You have a useless achievment" vs Big Trophy. Real fair.
<double post>
Well, I think that'd be fair enough. Sort of like, a raid with similar, but easier content, that gives lesser rewards. At the moment, in WoW, to do ICC, you must do it with an awesome gearscore, with fantastic strategy (I guess, haven't done it yet, and don't plan to, really)
What you could do, is have a lesser boss - perhaps even a freaking "training ICC" that the bloody magi have created out of pure mana constructs to "test your might", an easy mode ICC that gives just lesser mana-created loot - perhaps even "temporary" real loot, that lasts like 2-4 hours. Hell, you could do that easy-mode ICC, get temporary-good-loot, and then do real ICC.
But anyway, that's getting off-topic... if there was an easier raid, with a lower barrier to entry, that gave lesser, but not completely useless loot, it would probably be pretty good. Isn't Ulduar pretty much the stepping stone into Ice Crown Citadel? 'Cept Ulduar's apparently hard as hell... but something like that, some sort of nice stepping stone that isn't just running on a treadmill for a thousand hours getting into shape for the Tour De France - games immitate life, but they aren't meant to be that realistic, are they?
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Are you asking if it's not like that? Why the question mark? I mean, maybe thinking is too hard for you, but it seems to me that there are varying raid difficulties in WoW and the easier difficulties do tend to give inferior rewards.
And the bad players can do both the "easier difficulties" and harder difficulties.
They can do it, but they won't succeed. Thus the absolute best gear will be available to good, dedicated players and the inferior gear will be available to bad players.
There are only a few encounters in the game that they aren't capable of doing. The gear difference between the really good players vs the really bad ones is negligible anymore. When you are capable of doing raids that are 5-10x more difficult, why would your gear only be 5% better?
WoW is like: "We have a few hard NPCs, but we aren't going to give you any serious rewards for downing them". Only because this would give the good players way better gear than the bad players (Which is how it should be).
I don't want to wear the same gear as newbs if I am doing content that they have no chance at.
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Big Trophy vs Small Trophy? Lol.
More like Big Trophy with "You have a useless achievment" vs Big Trophy. Real fair.
Well, I think that'd be fair enough. Sort of like, a raid with similar, but easier content, that gives lesser rewards. At the moment, in WoW, to do ICC, you must do it with an awesome gearscore, with fantastic strategy (I guess, haven't done it yet, and don't plan to, really)
What you could do, is have a lesser boss - perhaps even a freaking "training ICC" that the bloody magi have created out of pure mana constructs to "test your might", an easy mode ICC that gives just lesser mana-created loot - perhaps even "temporary" real loot, that lasts like 2-4 hours. Hell, you could do that easy-mode ICC, get temporary-good-loot, and then do real ICC.
But anyway, that's getting off-topic... if there was an easier raid, with a lower barrier to entry, that gave lesser, but not completely useless loot, it would probably be pretty good. Isn't Ulduar pretty much the stepping stone into Ice Crown Citadel? 'Cept Ulduar's apparently hard as hell... but something like that, some sort of nice stepping stone that isn't just running on a treadmill for a thousand hours getting into shape for the Tour De France - games immitate life, but they aren't meant to be that realistic, are they?
here's what I think would be a fair compromise.
For raiding, the BEST gear is had by raids. You can get similar but lesser gear doing single player dungeons.
For grouping, the BEST rate of xp gain (per hour, including time to travle and form groups) and loot is by grouping. You can still get to the level cap solo, but it will take longer, you can still get good gear solo, but it won't be the best for your level.
Anything more than that, and it's not a "compromise" it's just making it a casual game, and giving the hardcore player nothing.
For FFA, I see no compromise available. Either you CAN kill people every where, at any time, or you cannot.
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
So how do you institute this compromise in an FFA PvP game withotu wrecking the fun for the FFP PvP'ers?
The simple answer is, you can't.
but you CAN make the game fun for care bears, which is exactly my point.
compromise in this case helps the casual, hurts the hardcore.
What does the FFA player get out of any compromise?
Keep in mind the FFA Player only wants ONE thing to make the game fun. The ability to kill anyone, anywhere, at any time. That's it. They really, really, really, don't want anything else to make the game fun.
Now, where's your compromise that helps the FFA player?
I always felt that the FFA crowd were the ones who wanted an easy way out. I mean if they wanted a real challenge they would play games with even playing fields. Do they even know what challenge means? This is one of its meanings: to arouse or stimulate especially by presenting with difficulties. Now, challenging would be few against many, not ganking squads. Challenging would be the weak against the strong, not a full plated warrior against a loin-cloth wearer cutting logs.
I'll grant you this: Compromise always benefits those wanting to have fun, never those wanting to spend their time with retarded time sink mechanics. Complexity can be fun. Fun doesnt mean dumbed down or carebear. Real PvP'ers dont give a shit about safe zones, they want to fight people who also want to fight, not defenseless newbies.
Games that you want already exist. I have no idea why you're whining non stop on this forum instead of playing one of them.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Are you asking if it's not like that? Why the question mark? I mean, maybe thinking is too hard for you, but it seems to me that there are varying raid difficulties in WoW and the easier difficulties do tend to give inferior rewards.
And the bad players can do both the "easier difficulties" and harder difficulties.
They can do it, but they won't succeed. Thus the absolute best gear will be available to good, dedicated players and the inferior gear will be available to bad players.
There are only a few encounters in the game that they aren't capable of doing.
You've already established in another thread you haven't even played Lich King. Why are you still here running your mouth as if you have something relevant to add to the conversation?
Personally, I think generalizing everyone into one of only 2 groups is asinine and asking for a flame war. Most of the gaming community doesn't fit into the tight little boxes of one person's opinion.
Then again, this thread seems to have been started for the sole purpose of arguing the OP's opinion saying " this style of gameplay is wrong and I know it is, even though I have never played this way."
Honestly, why even argue about it when neither side cares to be open minded enough to see the others point of view?
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Big Trophy vs Small Trophy? Lol.
More like Big Trophy with "You have a useless achievment" vs Big Trophy. Real fair.
Well, I think that'd be fair enough. Sort of like, a raid with similar, but easier content, that gives lesser rewards. At the moment, in WoW, to do ICC, you must do it with an awesome gearscore, with fantastic strategy (I guess, haven't done it yet, and don't plan to, really)
What you could do, is have a lesser boss - perhaps even a freaking "training ICC" that the bloody magi have created out of pure mana constructs to "test your might", an easy mode ICC that gives just lesser mana-created loot - perhaps even "temporary" real loot, that lasts like 2-4 hours. Hell, you could do that easy-mode ICC, get temporary-good-loot, and then do real ICC.
But anyway, that's getting off-topic... if there was an easier raid, with a lower barrier to entry, that gave lesser, but not completely useless loot, it would probably be pretty good. Isn't Ulduar pretty much the stepping stone into Ice Crown Citadel? 'Cept Ulduar's apparently hard as hell... but something like that, some sort of nice stepping stone that isn't just running on a treadmill for a thousand hours getting into shape for the Tour De France - games immitate life, but they aren't meant to be that realistic, are they?
here's what I think would be a fair compromise.
For raiding, the BEST gear is had by raids. You can get similar but lesser gear doing single player dungeons.
For grouping, the BEST rate of xp gain and loot is by grouping. You can still get to the level cap solo, but it will take longer, you can still get good gear solo, but it won't be the best for your level.
Anything more than that, and it's not a "compromise" it's just making it a casual game, and giving the hardcore player nothing.
For FFA, I see no compromise available. Either you CAN kill people every where, at any time, or you cannot.
The next best thing to a compromise is RvR.
I don't want a game where people are capable of soloing. That just leaeds to an anti-social community where players don't work together and you end up with servers where people don't even know each other. You just share a world with other people, but never interact with them. Massive single player game.
Grouping is dead without instances, because the content is all easy to solo. And when you are playing in an instance, you only group with them until the instance is over and you never see them again.
In EQ, if you hang around a zone you meet the same players over and over, and you group with the same groups of players and level together. In WoW it just seems really disjoint and you don't form those relationships because you are totally self reliant and can basically solo the game if you want to. So you don't need people in WoW, and you don't get to know anyone because of that.
The game should be:
Hard PVE content that can't be solod
Hard Raid content
No instancing
Selection of servers WITH or WITHOUT pvp, with those settings.
PvP servers can be divided into FFA PvP, team based PvP, etc.
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Are you asking if it's not like that? Why the question mark? I mean, maybe thinking is too hard for you, but it seems to me that there are varying raid difficulties in WoW and the easier difficulties do tend to give inferior rewards.
And the bad players can do both the "easier difficulties" and harder difficulties.
They can do it, but they won't succeed. Thus the absolute best gear will be available to good, dedicated players and the inferior gear will be available to bad players.
There are only a few encounters in the game that they aren't capable of doing.
You've already established in another thread you haven't even played Lich King. Why are you still here running your mouth as if you have something relevant to add to the conversation?
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Are you asking if it's not like that? Why the question mark? I mean, maybe thinking is too hard for you, but it seems to me that there are varying raid difficulties in WoW and the easier difficulties do tend to give inferior rewards.
And the bad players can do both the "easier difficulties" and harder difficulties.
They can do it, but they won't succeed. Thus the absolute best gear will be available to good, dedicated players and the inferior gear will be available to bad players.
There are only a few encounters in the game that they aren't capable of doing.
You've already established in another thread you haven't even played Lich King. Why are you still here running your mouth as if you have something relevant to add to the conversation?
Truth is the truth
Truth must be gained. Where did you gain your "truths?"
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Are you asking if it's not like that? Why the question mark? I mean, maybe thinking is too hard for you, but it seems to me that there are varying raid difficulties in WoW and the easier difficulties do tend to give inferior rewards.
And the bad players can do both the "easier difficulties" and harder difficulties.
They can do it, but they won't succeed. Thus the absolute best gear will be available to good, dedicated players and the inferior gear will be available to bad players.
There are only a few encounters in the game that they aren't capable of doing.
You've already established in another thread you haven't even played Lich King. Why are you still here running your mouth as if you have something relevant to add to the conversation?
Truth is the truth
Truth must be gained. Where did you gain your "truths?"
Just because I don't play it currently doesn't mean I tried it out every few years. I've noticed the dumbing down over the years.
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
Except it's not like that?
Are you asking if it's not like that? Why the question mark? I mean, maybe thinking is too hard for you, but it seems to me that there are varying raid difficulties in WoW and the easier difficulties do tend to give inferior rewards.
And the bad players can do both the "easier difficulties" and harder difficulties.
They can do it, but they won't succeed. Thus the absolute best gear will be available to good, dedicated players and the inferior gear will be available to bad players.
There are only a few encounters in the game that they aren't capable of doing.
You've already established in another thread you haven't even played Lich King. Why are you still here running your mouth as if you have something relevant to add to the conversation?
Truth is the truth
Truth must be gained. Where did you gain your "truths?"
Just because I don't play it currently doesn't mean I tried it out every few years.
If that were the case, you would have claimed your observations were based on your experience with the game but instead you simply just said "Truth is truth" as if it didn't matter whether you played the game. Sorry, but I'm not buying it, kid.
If that were the case, you would have claimed your observations were based on your experience with the game but instead you simply just said "Truth is truth" as if it didn't matter whether you played the game. Sorry, but I'm not buying it, kid.
The only ones who do buy it are those like happy. Disgrunted hardcores who cant flex their epeens in front of noobs in Ironforge anymore. That is their problem, nothing else.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Games are fun if you like them, and different people like different things.
You can't debate or argue someone into having fun.
You aren't superior in some way to anyone, because your idea of what is fun is different from their idea of what is fun.
Forced grouping is fun for some people, other people hate it.
Raiding is fun for some people, other peole hate it.
FFA PvP is fun for some people, other peole hate it.
If you hate forced grouping, just say so. Don't make up some farfetched baloney that all forced groupers have to like your solo friendly game, becaues obviously they don't.
If you hate raiding, just say so. Dont' make up some baloney that all raiders are bad people unless they like your idea of a game with no raiding.
If you hate FFA PvP, just say you're a care bear and so what? Dont make up some baloney that having zones that don't allow PvP is good for FFA players AND carebears, because that's just not true.
There's no reason you can't just say, you don't like a certain feature. You don't have to pretend that becuase you like a feature, EVERYOne has to like it to, or somehow they are a bad gamer, or a bad person.
Ok, someone likes forced grouping and you don't. so what? Someone likes Raiding and you dont'. Ok, that's fine. Someone likes FFA Pvp, and you think it sucks.
That's ok. Just say it, and be done with it. No need to pretend that somehow EVERYONE has to like your game, because ti's about "choice".
No it isn't. It's about what YOU like, always has been, always will be.
Comments
You bring up a valid point, but not one that only Casuals tend to bring up; the "I'm [forced] to do something" argument.
Nobody is forced to group, or forced to quest, or forced to PvP and raid. Nobody forces anyone to *need* the best things in the game... If you don't have time to keep up with raiding, and will never attempt PvP leaderboards - what is that ultimate gear setup to you beyond mental assurance that you're statistically equal?
People on both sides have very bad habits when it comes to self-masochism. There's plenty of others that simply won't *do* content that doesn't interest them, but others [force themselves] to be perfectionist whether they have the time to do so or not. Man, all the people that quit LotRO because they couldn't get the survival title for never dying pre-50.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I think a better analogy is that compromise has often been that you can still ride the 2,200 mile Tour de France and get that big trophy, but there's also a 1,000 mile path that only rewards you with a smaller version of the trophy and not nearly as much respect and admiration.
I think you will find that the words greed and envy are much better suited today.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Except it's not like that?
Big Trophy vs Small Trophy? Lol.
More like Big Trophy with "You have a useless achievment" vs Big Trophy. Real fair.
A big problem here is identifying the whiners from the people who have real, valid concerns for a game.
For example - player A thinks that there is very little content between levels 20 and 30 of MMO X.
Player B thinks everything's fine, he is 13 using his parents' money and his "studying time" to play the game (for 25 hours a day - his parents are so proud).
Player C thinks the grind is too long and hard (currently at level 15) and thinks that the exp needed should be reduced.
From just looking at it, what they could do is solve player A's problem by adding in some content between levels 20 and 30. But depending on how the masses sway between the types A, B, and C (and whatever other player types you could come up with) the developers might have to take notice (80% is one type),they might take some notice, and have a community representative tell the people that "they're working on it" (roughly 30% between 3, or 40% between two), or they might take no notice at all (roughly even between many different ones)
It's one of those things where you need a million people to all shout, at once, "PALADINS NEED NERFS LOL" to make a company take notice.
Anyway, people will always have their own opinions about things, you just have to hope that the majority are sensible and won't shout out "Hey! That guy won something! I want something just as good, but without the effort that HE went through!"
So yeah, good luck changing stupidity -_-
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
Are you asking if it's not like that? Why the question mark? I mean, maybe thinking is too hard for you, but it seems to me that there are varying raid difficulties in WoW and the easier difficulties do tend to give inferior rewards.
No, no and no.
You are the only one actually saying this and it is getting tiresome and silly.
If Lance Armstrong only cared about some stupid trophy then I would pitty him just as much.
The problem the 'hardcore' have is that they think that what they are doing is something truly important. The casuals want to do the fun stuff in games and if gear or XP is a tool required to start up on the fun tasks then they see no reasons why these tools should be made inaccessible because the 'hardcore' have illussions of grandeur.
The 'hardcore' are like someone telling Lance Armstrong that he cannot ride a bike until he builds it himself from raw materials and also weaves his own jerseys.
So how do you institute this compromise in an FFA PvP game withotu wrecking the fun for the FFP PvP'ers?
The simple answer is, you can't.
but you CAN make the game fun for care bears, which is exactly my point.
compromise in this case helps the casual, hurts the hardcore.
What does the FFA player get out of any compromise?
Keep in mind the FFA Player only wants ONE thing to make the game fun. The ability to kill anyone, anywhere, at any time. That's it. They really, really, really, don't want anything else to make the game fun.
Now, where's your compromise that helps the FFA player?
And the bad players can do both the "easier difficulties" and harder difficulties.
What is there for good players, the people doing BWL and AQ and Naxx before they made the zones dumb?
No content in the game for any of the good players anymore. Unless you want useless achievments for some reason because the bad players whined so much that they had to hand out the same gear to everyone.
bad analogy is bad.
FFA PvP games should never be about gear, so the analogy shouldn't apply. If you play a FFA PvP game where gear is a determinant in winning, and as a result gear grinds to succeed is a reality, then you're playing the wrong game or playing for the wrong reasons.
They can do it, but they won't succeed. Thus the absolute best gear will be available to good, dedicated players and the inferior gear will be available to bad players.
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Well, I think that'd be fair enough. Sort of like, a raid with similar, but easier content, that gives lesser rewards. At the moment, in WoW, to do ICC, you must do it with an awesome gearscore, with fantastic strategy (I guess, haven't done it yet, and don't plan to, really)
What you could do, is have a lesser boss - perhaps even a freaking "training ICC" that the bloody magi have created out of pure mana constructs to "test your might", an easy mode ICC that gives just lesser mana-created loot - perhaps even "temporary" real loot, that lasts like 2-4 hours. Hell, you could do that easy-mode ICC, get temporary-good-loot, and then do real ICC.
But anyway, that's getting off-topic... if there was an easier raid, with a lower barrier to entry, that gave lesser, but not completely useless loot, it would probably be pretty good. Isn't Ulduar pretty much the stepping stone into Ice Crown Citadel? 'Cept Ulduar's apparently hard as hell... but something like that, some sort of nice stepping stone that isn't just running on a treadmill for a thousand hours getting into shape for the Tour De France - games immitate life, but they aren't meant to be that realistic, are they?
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
There are only a few encounters in the game that they aren't capable of doing. The gear difference between the really good players vs the really bad ones is negligible anymore. When you are capable of doing raids that are 5-10x more difficult, why would your gear only be 5% better?
WoW is like: "We have a few hard NPCs, but we aren't going to give you any serious rewards for downing them". Only because this would give the good players way better gear than the bad players (Which is how it should be).
I don't want to wear the same gear as newbs if I am doing content that they have no chance at.
here's what I think would be a fair compromise.
For raiding, the BEST gear is had by raids. You can get similar but lesser gear doing single player dungeons.
For grouping, the BEST rate of xp gain (per hour, including time to travle and form groups) and loot is by grouping. You can still get to the level cap solo, but it will take longer, you can still get good gear solo, but it won't be the best for your level.
Anything more than that, and it's not a "compromise" it's just making it a casual game, and giving the hardcore player nothing.
For FFA, I see no compromise available. Either you CAN kill people every where, at any time, or you cannot.
The next best thing to a compromise is RvR.
I always felt that the FFA crowd were the ones who wanted an easy way out. I mean if they wanted a real challenge they would play games with even playing fields. Do they even know what challenge means? This is one of its meanings: to arouse or stimulate especially by presenting with difficulties. Now, challenging would be few against many, not ganking squads. Challenging would be the weak against the strong, not a full plated warrior against a loin-cloth wearer cutting logs.
I'll grant you this: Compromise always benefits those wanting to have fun, never those wanting to spend their time with retarded time sink mechanics. Complexity can be fun. Fun doesnt mean dumbed down or carebear. Real PvP'ers dont give a shit about safe zones, they want to fight people who also want to fight, not defenseless newbies.
Games that you want already exist. I have no idea why you're whining non stop on this forum instead of playing one of them.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
You've already established in another thread you haven't even played Lich King. Why are you still here running your mouth as if you have something relevant to add to the conversation?
Personally, I think generalizing everyone into one of only 2 groups is asinine and asking for a flame war. Most of the gaming community doesn't fit into the tight little boxes of one person's opinion.
Then again, this thread seems to have been started for the sole purpose of arguing the OP's opinion saying " this style of gameplay is wrong and I know it is, even though I have never played this way."
Honestly, why even argue about it when neither side cares to be open minded enough to see the others point of view?
I don't want a game where people are capable of soloing. That just leaeds to an anti-social community where players don't work together and you end up with servers where people don't even know each other. You just share a world with other people, but never interact with them. Massive single player game.
Grouping is dead without instances, because the content is all easy to solo. And when you are playing in an instance, you only group with them until the instance is over and you never see them again.
In EQ, if you hang around a zone you meet the same players over and over, and you group with the same groups of players and level together. In WoW it just seems really disjoint and you don't form those relationships because you are totally self reliant and can basically solo the game if you want to. So you don't need people in WoW, and you don't get to know anyone because of that.
The game should be:
Hard PVE content that can't be solod
Hard Raid content
No instancing
Selection of servers WITH or WITHOUT pvp, with those settings.
PvP servers can be divided into FFA PvP, team based PvP, etc.
So, something like original EQ basically
Truth is the truth
Truth must be gained. Where did you gain your "truths?"
Just because I don't play it currently doesn't mean I tried it out every few years. I've noticed the dumbing down over the years.
If that were the case, you would have claimed your observations were based on your experience with the game but instead you simply just said "Truth is truth" as if it didn't matter whether you played the game. Sorry, but I'm not buying it, kid.
The only ones who do buy it are those like happy. Disgrunted hardcores who cant flex their epeens in front of noobs in Ironforge anymore. That is their problem, nothing else.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Games are fun if you like them, and different people like different things.
You can't debate or argue someone into having fun.
You aren't superior in some way to anyone, because your idea of what is fun is different from their idea of what is fun.
Forced grouping is fun for some people, other people hate it.
Raiding is fun for some people, other peole hate it.
FFA PvP is fun for some people, other peole hate it.
If you hate forced grouping, just say so. Don't make up some farfetched baloney that all forced groupers have to like your solo friendly game, becaues obviously they don't.
If you hate raiding, just say so. Dont' make up some baloney that all raiders are bad people unless they like your idea of a game with no raiding.
If you hate FFA PvP, just say you're a care bear and so what? Dont make up some baloney that having zones that don't allow PvP is good for FFA players AND carebears, because that's just not true.
There's no reason you can't just say, you don't like a certain feature. You don't have to pretend that becuase you like a feature, EVERYOne has to like it to, or somehow they are a bad gamer, or a bad person.
Ok, someone likes forced grouping and you don't. so what? Someone likes Raiding and you dont'. Ok, that's fine. Someone likes FFA Pvp, and you think it sucks.
That's ok. Just say it, and be done with it. No need to pretend that somehow EVERYONE has to like your game, because ti's about "choice".
No it isn't. It's about what YOU like, always has been, always will be.