Yep, I remember those. It's that kind of attention to detail that, in my view, is missing from MMOs and games in general. Yeah, I know that not everyone likes it. That can be said of anything. Either way MMOs and other games wouldn't hurt from a little more substance and a little less makeup.
As for the whole Socialism thing, I've found that the vast majority of people "crying Socialism" don't know what Socialism is in the firsst place. They've only been taught to hate it because (Americans in particular) other countries like Russia and other "enemies" have utilized those modes of thought. So it must be bad. Yeah, not so.
Socialism can work. Communism can work. Capitalism can work. The problem arises when you introduce the most dastardly, scheming, corrupt variable to any of those equations it dooms it to failure. That variable, ladies and gentlemen, is mankind. Eliminate that "gene" within mankind that makes him/her covetous and that makes the desire to be "more equal" than the next "pig" and replace it with universal genuine care and consideration for fellow man and any of those government types will work.
Unfortunately, Roddenberry's dream is no where near happening with this batch of Homo Sapiens. It's going to take a castastrophe of global proportions to kick everyone in the collective backsides and focus this race to get its crap together.
Great post.
I have also concluded that our race is going to require some sort of major catastrophe to occur in order for us to "smarten up". We seem to enjoy learning after the fact
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I dunno, MMOs are usually all about gear and stuff. That doesn't sound so socialistic to me. And F2P games are far from socialistic, the more money you use the better you become.
But of course, mechanic wise are they somewhat commie, everyone should be equal (at the same level).
Still, you can't really apply real world values to a game. Games just is so unrealistic that you misses the point.
You have no idea what Socialism is...that much is obvious. Turn off the Teabagger reports.
Socialism: Control of the means and direction of production by a Central Authority. Notice that in a Social Democracy/Republic, those priorities are decided by the people who vote.
To wit, dastardly Socialist programs in the U.S.:
NASA
Our national highway system
Our military industrial complex
Police
Firefighters
Our public Libraries
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
2. It doesn't matter how good you are, everyone gets paid the same. It doesn't matter what class you play everyone gets paid the same. The only way you get more money is by putting in more hours.
#2 is not true at all. Good groups get more accomplished and thus get "paid" more. Good players tend to get invited to good groups. If it takes my groups 1 hour to do a dungeon and it takes your groups 3 hours then I get paid 3x better than you.
No, Communism has never worked and never will because it is fundamentally flawed as a system of government. There are no successful examples of Communism, because it does not work.
You will always get the saem result, tyranny. Because if you let people vote, they will vote to keep their own shit, and not let the government have it.
So to enforce Communism, you have to take away the vote. Once you do that, there are no checks and balances, and you get ultimate power, which ultimately corrupts.
This will happen EVERY TIME with Communism.
And PUHLEZE don't give me the crazy baloney about the vote in the Soviet Union. Yes, they voted. For the one candidate they were allowed to vote for. That is not a democracy up to US or EU standards by any stretch of the imagination.
I mean what's your point? communism works if everyone is Jesus Christ? Murder is fine then to, because we can all come back to life. I mean you're just getting into the absurd. Communsim CAN work if everyone is Jesus Christ! Oh great, well we could all fly if gravity didn't exist. What good does that do anyone?
You...need to calm the eff down. Seriously. And you're right, with your examples you took it into the absurd which means I ain't having this discussion with you.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Yep, I remember those. It's that kind of attention to detail that, in my view, is missing from MMOs and games in general. Yeah, I know that not everyone likes it. That can be said of anything. Either way MMOs and other games wouldn't hurt from a little more substance and a little less makeup.
As for the whole Socialism thing, I've found that the vast majority of people "crying Socialism" don't know what Socialism is in the firsst place. They've only been taught to hate it because (Americans in particular) other countries like Russia and other "enemies" have utilized those modes of thought. So it must be bad. Yeah, not so.
Socialism can work. Communism can work. Capitalism can work. The problem arises when you introduce the most dastardly, scheming, corrupt variable to any of those equations it dooms it to failure. That variable, ladies and gentlemen, is mankind. Eliminate that "gene" within mankind that makes him/her covetous and that makes the desire to be "more equal" than the next "pig" and replace it with universal genuine care and consideration for fellow man and any of those government types will work.
Unfortunately, Roddenberry's dream is no where near happening with this batch of Homo Sapiens. It's going to take a castastrophe of global proportions to kick everyone in the collective backsides and focus this race to get its crap together.
Great post.
I have also concluded that our race is going to require some sort of major catastrophe to occur in order for us to "smarten up". We seem to enjoy learning after the fact
Such has been our curse from the beginning of documented time. *shakes head*
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Ya...pretty much as everyone else has said: MMO's are far from true socialism. But I can see your point from a very skewed perspective. If you mean everyone starting out on the same basic level and able to work their way up from there, but always having a very minimal safety net- I guess that is true. But let me ask you: Would you continue to play if you were continually knocked down and humbled with very little reward?
Having this foundation inspires people to take more chances and allows them to become more inventive. Think of all the talented bards, paladin's, healers, and fire wizzies we'd never see if they couldn't locate food at level 1 and just simply "settles" or gave up. Sure, you'll always have gold sellers that take advantage of the system, but isn't it worth it if you get an awesome healer to lvl 50 for your rvr or pvp team?
Socialism is a fantastic concept, it's a shame the whole world doesn't exist the same way.
I would see games as more of a Humanist ideal; everyone chipping in for the same goals, each person using his skills to the benifit of all others. I guess you could call that Communism too, however, like Capitalism, Communism is flawed due to human nature i.e. greed, selfishness and cruelty.
How can u say mmorpg have socialist values when every player dreams of being the badass capitalist with the biggest gold sword that can kill all other players.
Socialism is a fantastic concept, it's a shame the whole world doesn't exist the same way.
I would see games as more of a Humanist ideal; everyone chipping in for the same goals, each person using his skills to the benifit of all others. I guess you could call that Communism too, however, like Capitalism, Communism is flawed due to human nature i.e. greed, selfishness and cruelty.
Socialism is a fantastic concept, it's a shame the whole world doesn't exist the same way.
I would see games as more of a Humanist ideal; everyone chipping in for the same goals, each person using his skills to the benifit of all others. I guess you could call that Communism too, however, like Capitalism, Communism is flawed due to human nature i.e. greed, selfishness and cruelty.
Exactly!
Socialists are robots with no personal drive to better themselves=) Why should you, when no matter what you do, the lowest common denominator brings you down? Thats NOT MMOs. The best players always excel over the poor ones. There are rewards for doing very little, but we're talking videogames here, not life;)
You have no idea what Socialism is...that much is obvious. Turn off the Teabagger reports.
Socialism: Control of the means and direction of production by a Central Authority. Notice that in a Social Democracy/Republic, those priorities are decided by the people who vote.
To wit, dastardly Socialist programs in the U.S.:
NASA
Our national highway system
Our military industrial complex
Police
Firefighters
Our public Libraries
You forgot to add the public school system.
The problem with the US moving more socialist is that the US government has already proven its inability to efficiently and effectively manage publically what was already done privately.
I wouldn't say that socialism itself is bad, but US Socialism will be.
Socialism in games is a different story entirely. Basically the virtual world has to change dramatically for any isms to have any meaning in the game.
however, like Capitalism, Communism is flawed due to human nature i.e. greed, selfishness and cruelty.
All -isms are flawed due to human nature. Pretty much everything humans do is flawed due to human nature really. Maybe it's because it is humans who are flawed, and therefore everything we do...it tends to get messed up somehow.
That's why even though my public electric co-op has made some mistakes over the years, I don't pretend the private cable company was any better, so that's why I'm letting the co-op provide my TV, phone and internet service instead.
however, like Capitalism, Communism is flawed due to human nature i.e. greed, selfishness and cruelty.
All -isms are flawed due to human nature. Pretty much everything humans do is flawed due to human nature really. Maybe it's because it is humans who are flawed, and therefore everything we do...it tends to get messed up somehow.
I can't say that humans are flawed. It's that sometimes we create a different, distorded image of what humans really are. Then we get dissapointed because we end up different from what we imagined. Communism did that. Created a system for a completely different type of humans and then they wondered why it didn't work. Well humans don't like to have the same things every other person does. Humans feel better when they have more. Some may say it's a bad thing some say it's a good thing. What matters in the end is accepting the reality.
Socialism is a fantastic concept, it's a shame the whole world doesn't exist the same way.
I would see games as more of a Humanist ideal; everyone chipping in for the same goals, each person using his skills to the benifit of all others. I guess you could call that Communism too, however, like Capitalism, Communism is flawed due to human nature i.e. greed, selfishness and cruelty.
Exactly!
"Socialists are robots with no personal drive to better themselves=) Why should you, when no matter what you do, the lowest common denominator brings you down? Thats NOT MMOs. The best players always excel over the poor ones. There are rewards for doing very little, but we're talking videogames here, not life;)"
No No NO.....Socialism is there to free people from worries of life so therefore they have the time and ability to expand themselves and grow. With free healthcare, education (including university), utilities at vastly discounted rates it is benificial for everyone. The point is that people who earn a lot help those who earn less or nothing ( due to illness or what ever the reason). This gives everyone the chance to have a better quality life.
The trouble is people from Capitalist societies have been seduced by the idea that the only way to do well is to make money and use those below you to your own benifit at their detriement. Everyone in the world deserves the same quality of life including healthcare and education. This could easily be done if those with the billions would just share the wealth.
It's time people saw that power isn't the best aim of life, it's far more rewarding to aim for wisdom. Why does one person need $100 billion, what can they do with it? When one person earns more than some coutries it's time to adjust the power base.
Socialism is a fantastic concept, it's a shame the whole world doesn't exist the same way.
I would see games as more of a Humanist ideal; everyone chipping in for the same goals, each person using his skills to the benifit of all others. I guess you could call that Communism too, however, like Capitalism, Communism is flawed due to human nature i.e. greed, selfishness and cruelty.
Exactly!
"Socialists are robots with no personal drive to better themselves=) Why should you, when no matter what you do, the lowest common denominator brings you down? Thats NOT MMOs. The best players always excel over the poor ones. There are rewards for doing very little, but we're talking videogames here, not life;)"
No No NO.....Socialism is there to free people from worries of life so therefore they have the time and ability to expand themselves and grow. With free healthcare, education (including university), utilities at vastly discounted rates it is benificial for everyone. The point is that people who earn a lot help those who earn less or nothing ( due to illness or what ever the reason). This gives everyone the chance to have a better quality life.
The trouble is people from Capitalist societies have been seduced by the idea that the only way to do well is to make money and use those below you to your own benifit at their detriement. Everyone in the world deserves the same quality of life including healthcare and education. This could easily be done if those with the billions would just share the wealth.
It's time people saw that power isn't the best aim of life, it's far more rewarding to aim for wisdom. Why does one person need $100 billion, what can they do with it? When one person earns more than some coutries it's time to adjust the power base.
You're kidding right? A 100 billion is chump change. Do you know how much it costs to own and operate just one Space Shuttle?
Lets keep this discussion about the MMO aspect. There is a designated forum for other discussions (I.E. Politics).
I know that technically this forum is not for polotics. But it has to be said the fact that this forum is moderated certainly is helping everyone to be polite and on topic unlike normall political topics in the 'right' forum section.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Comments
Great post.
I have also concluded that our race is going to require some sort of major catastrophe to occur in order for us to "smarten up". We seem to enjoy learning after the fact
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I dunno, MMOs are usually all about gear and stuff. That doesn't sound so socialistic to me. And F2P games are far from socialistic, the more money you use the better you become.
But of course, mechanic wise are they somewhat commie, everyone should be equal (at the same level).
Still, you can't really apply real world values to a game. Games just is so unrealistic that you misses the point.
You have no idea what Socialism is...that much is obvious. Turn off the Teabagger reports.
Socialism: Control of the means and direction of production by a Central Authority. Notice that in a Social Democracy/Republic, those priorities are decided by the people who vote.
To wit, dastardly Socialist programs in the U.S.:
NASA
Our national highway system
Our military industrial complex
Police
Firefighters
Our public Libraries
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
To sum up the excellent points made in posts #2 (viddster), #4 (randomt), and #54 (cerion):
MMORPGs aren't very socialist.
If they were, so what?
Many great aspects of the US are already socialist.
(and honorable mention to Ihmotepp's reincarnation metiond :P )
(and dishonorable mention to Fox News.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
#2 is not true at all. Good groups get more accomplished and thus get "paid" more. Good players tend to get invited to good groups. If it takes my groups 1 hour to do a dungeon and it takes your groups 3 hours then I get paid 3x better than you.
You...need to calm the eff down. Seriously. And you're right, with your examples you took it into the absurd which means I ain't having this discussion with you.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Such has been our curse from the beginning of documented time. *shakes head*
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Ya...pretty much as everyone else has said: MMO's are far from true socialism. But I can see your point from a very skewed perspective. If you mean everyone starting out on the same basic level and able to work their way up from there, but always having a very minimal safety net- I guess that is true. But let me ask you: Would you continue to play if you were continually knocked down and humbled with very little reward?
Having this foundation inspires people to take more chances and allows them to become more inventive. Think of all the talented bards, paladin's, healers, and fire wizzies we'd never see if they couldn't locate food at level 1 and just simply "settles" or gave up. Sure, you'll always have gold sellers that take advantage of the system, but isn't it worth it if you get an awesome healer to lvl 50 for your rvr or pvp team?
Well even if we capsuleers dont pay our clone fees, we do still get basic healthcare
Give me liberty or give me lasers
same here
Socialism is a fantastic concept, it's a shame the whole world doesn't exist the same way.
I would see games as more of a Humanist ideal; everyone chipping in for the same goals, each person using his skills to the benifit of all others. I guess you could call that Communism too, however, like Capitalism, Communism is flawed due to human nature i.e. greed, selfishness and cruelty.
In Soviet Russia, DREAMS have YOU.
Exactly!
Socialists are robots with no personal drive to better themselves=) Why should you, when no matter what you do, the lowest common denominator brings you down? Thats NOT MMOs. The best players always excel over the poor ones. There are rewards for doing very little, but we're talking videogames here, not life;)
So you are saying when there are socialist values evident then that is a socialism? Didnt your mom teach you to share? Moms are socialist.
reducto ad absurdum
You forgot to add the public school system.
The problem with the US moving more socialist is that the US government has already proven its inability to efficiently and effectively manage publically what was already done privately.
I wouldn't say that socialism itself is bad, but US Socialism will be.
Socialism in games is a different story entirely. Basically the virtual world has to change dramatically for any isms to have any meaning in the game.
All -isms are flawed due to human nature. Pretty much everything humans do is flawed due to human nature really. Maybe it's because it is humans who are flawed, and therefore everything we do...it tends to get messed up somehow.
That's why even though my public electric co-op has made some mistakes over the years, I don't pretend the private cable company was any better, so that's why I'm letting the co-op provide my TV, phone and internet service instead.
Lets keep this discussion about the MMO aspect. There is a designated forum for other discussions (I.E. Politics).
I can't say that humans are flawed. It's that sometimes we create a different, distorded image of what humans really are. Then we get dissapointed because we end up different from what we imagined. Communism did that. Created a system for a completely different type of humans and then they wondered why it didn't work. Well humans don't like to have the same things every other person does. Humans feel better when they have more. Some may say it's a bad thing some say it's a good thing. What matters in the end is accepting the reality.
Well, the reality here is that subject is off-topic for this forum, so let's just let it go.
You're kidding right? A 100 billion is chump change. Do you know how much it costs to own and operate just one Space Shuttle?
I could run through a 100 Billion in no time.
I know that technically this forum is not for polotics. But it has to be said the fact that this forum is moderated certainly is helping everyone to be polite and on topic unlike normall political topics in the 'right' forum section.
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981