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So when will companies finally realize that playing cookie cutter classes is not fun anymore?
ihatenoobs01
Member Posts: 71
Brb playing one of 9-12 classes
Brb having tank classes, heal classes, dps classes, and caster classes
Brb played each of those classes in another game
Brb not having any freedom in the way I want to build a character.
Every fucking game is the same now, and all it does is give a bad influence for future mmo's (As seen by the horrible lineup of games coming out in near future)
-Core 3 "Its the Pwn!"
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What does "brb" mean to you?
--------
"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
They did... it was called SWG where you could make pretty much any kind of character you wanted out of all types of skills... then SoE killed it...
I love the aspect of diversity in characters and their mechanics (classes) and further diversity within the very classes themselves. Most games seem to use some sort of talent tree. So instead of having 9 classes.. it's more like 27 different roles (using WoW for example).
Maybe you're wanting a game to have 1 class that you branch off into different areas? Wouldn't those "areas" or specilizations just lead to other classes within talents?
Please explain what you would rather have.
Played pre-cu and CU. I literally cannot have fun in a mmo anymore after playing.
(I was secretley referring to swg in comparison to the shit games produced now when I started thread)
-Core 3 "Its the Pwn!"
Well... The devs aren't really the problem. Most seem to be gamers themselves and realize that people want something different and fun. The real problem lies with the publishers (EA, Avtivision, etc.). They see all the money that WoW is raking in and essentially force the devs to copy that because apparrantly that's what makes money. Until devs stop selling themselves to publishers, this will probably continue.
Fortunately, the rise in digital downloads may hopefully make the need for a publisher obsolete sooner than later. Just look at all the "indie" games recently. Darkfall, Mortal, Xsyon, Fallen Earth, and even EVE were all released (or will be released soon) without a publisher. Sooo... Here's to hoping...
No, WOW is just 9 classes with MINOR differences in the possibility of templates. If you are a paladin.... you will do what all paladins will do. (I do not play wow but i will assume either dps and/or heal, See how I am making these assumptions from the numerous times I have encountered a paladin class)
Skill based refers to picking every little detail about your character, making it however you want. Getting better and stronger in whatever you please without limitations. I'm going to assume you never played swg (pre-shit), if not click there
http://www.swgcharacterbuilder.com/swg-cb.php
-Core 3 "Its the Pwn!"
Eh, it's not that big of a deal. Just look at every game that allows customization within classes. Within days, you'll see forum topics popping up asking for ideal builds for a role. You take away the classes, and people will still be posting for ideal healer builds, or ideal tanking builds, etc. Class names are just a way of formalizing the standard roles within a group combat party. If you want to change them, you need to remake the combat first, which is a HUGE can of worms to get into.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
OP: 9~12 classes you say you've played ?? Let me break it down for you....
There are ONLY 2 ways to fight: either melee (barbarians/warriors/paladins), or do it at distance (archers/mage/gunner etc.)
There are also ONLY 2 roles in fighting: either as a major combatant (doing DPS), or play a supportive role (to make sure former doesn't die).
Seriously, I don't care about your swg, wgs, or gws whatever. Every fight is just that, proven by long history of warfare.
Now, you have three roles to play as far as MMO's go: either as the developer, game host, or as a player.
If you're tired as a player playing someone else's world, why don't you try to change your own role, in becoming either a game host or a developer, then maybe you'll have a say about the trend.
Be proactive, and go to school to learn some skills to change your own "class"; it sure beats complaining here.
The things Ive come to find out playing games where you can make your character however you want is.
1) Even though you have the freedom to make a character however you want people still make those cookie cutter builds. I say whatevers clever
2) You end up making a character that is different but people, but people don't except it because its not as proficient as other builds.
Take FFXI for instance, even though it had classes, you could make different builds because of the subjob system. There were many combos you could make in that game. But if it wasn't the most proficient people would question you why you were using that build. Like being a Black Mage/ Summoner. Summoner gives you more MP some others things but people rather you either sub, WHM or Scholar to do some back up heals. Even though the BLM main job is to nuke your usually expected to do some sort of healing as well. Im sure even sometimes its difficult to get parties because you have a build that doesn't have max benifits.
Fallen earth is another one of those games where you can make any type of character you want but many people made cookie cutter builds. To even compete in PvP you had to make one of those cookie cutter builds. Rifleman were gimp and a Pistoleer or Melee could kick their ass so quick it wasn't even funny. So if you wanted to stand a chance at PvP you made a Pistoleer and probably would use Molotov and Sonic lance as your mutant powers. Reason being this build was one if not the strongest build.
Now granted you can say screw what everyone says and just do you're own thing, but most likely there will be some disadvantages to it. Like I said before not being able to get into parties as much because your build its as proficient as others or get owned in any sort of PvP.
But to be honest I really don't mind playing these cookie cutter classes. Im having as much fun playing FFXI now as I did when I first started in 2003. I still enjoy playing classes in DnD today just like I did back in 1998. So while it may not be fun for you there are still others that enjoy it.
The only thing you eliminate with digital downloads is the packing and distribution of the game. Devs still with be relying on large publishers like EA, Activision, etc to pay for the development.
And take a look at games like Darkfall and Mortal online that comes from indie companies that are not backed by a large producer. Yes I agree that on paper they are good games but they don't have the polish compare to a game that have a 10 million dollar budget.
Take Mortals Online. I have heard roamers that that game have a budget around 1 million euro and the network code of the game is so unstably that it makes it almost impossible to enjoy.
If you want to release a MMORPG today that won't get shot down by bad revues because of being forced to release the game way to early you need at least a budget of around 25 million dollar.
Now... who what to gamble 25 million dollar on new risky ideas that no one know for sure they will be posible to make a reality.
Many try to copy WoW's concept today. And WoW's concept back them was to take the good ideas from previous MMOs and cut out everything that had not worked in the passed. When WoW was releaced in 2004 it did not introduce anything new ideas into the MMORPG world.... With the exception of the concept: Do not try to be innovative, less is more.
When a company releases a MMORPG that is like Elder Scrolls but still easy to pick up, isn't riddled with countless irritating bugs, is as well polished as WoW, has an end-game that doesn't consist of running on an obvious hamster wheel over and over again for gear, and adds refreshing new gameplay elements that work, I think they'll strike gold. It's a shit ton to ask, but hey people aren't going to tolerate obvious WoW clones anymore. Don't ask me how that will all work well, that's the game designer's jobs. XD
Well Star Vault tock a swing at it... But as I sad in previus posts. They would have to tripple there budget to give it a fair shot at it.
There are two types of MMORPG players. Those with jobs, and those with some sort of other income that makes it possible for them to play MMORPGs all day instead of working.
People who don't have the time to make a career out of MMORPG playing will be at a huge disadvantage in games without classes. Heck, even many games with classes, this is true
R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there
Would be really interesting if you could explain your statment. What does time have to do with classes Vs skills?
But you are right in that having alot of time spent on a game, or what ever it could be, sports, art, ect.. has a large inpact on how sucessfull you will be at it. After all Practise makes perfect.
RPG players have been arguing for and against class-based and non-class based systems for decades.
Nothing new under the sun here.
If this is what having played SWG did to people, I am sooooo glad I skipped that one.
Btw, the kind of game you are describing is EVE. But I guess you dont like "being a spaceship". Its your loss man, really.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
And everyone played the same builds there too. Although I prefer the skill system better, most people were on the FOTM wagon. And If they werent, they still had the same build as every other succesfull pvper in there respective proffession. I suppose the only exception would have been people chasing the force sensitive slot and those not interested in pvp.
Posted by Blueharp on 4/08/10 at 7:30:22 AM
RPG players have been arguing for and against class-based and non-class based systems for decades.
Nothing new under the sun here.
This...I guess when they figure out how to make a role-playing-game without you playing a role is when it might change. Wait a sec...
HEAVEN OR HELL
Duel 1
Lets ROCK!
Personally I like the way FFXI did the ability to swap classes.
The problem wiht creating free spec Avatars is that evenutally everyone conforms to the 'Power Build' spec that everyone will religiously follow, thus making it a cookie cutter class.
Personally I would prefer a freedom building Avatar, where ,for example, you can develop Magic, choose a school to follow, and then finding away of allowing multiple schools to exploit each other.
So a fire and Ice school are in a team, Ice can freeze and slow enemies while Fire can add DOT and AoE effect. Ice Casts, Winters Storm that causes an AoE effect freeze, Fire casts Fire Ball and this damage is increased due to the frozen effect.
But an Earth School would have been able to cast Quake that would ahve added a SHATTER Damage bonus to enemies frozen.
The problem is creating a game that effectively allows expose and exploit attacks like this to work in freedom, is some way you have to restrict freedom otherwise players start doing Expose and Exploit attacks themselves when it should be more effective for groups to do this, hence encouraging players to socialise and group.
Otherwise I may as well just play Dragon Age
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/Norsefire-logo.png
I had not realized that this was not fun anymore. Clearly I must have been delutional in my enjoyment of such games and should stop it as soon as humanly possible. Thank you for informing me of this development, I'm glad we have someone watching over us to ensure we're all following the guidelines for having fun.
FFXIV looks like it will have some new classes or at least how they are presented. As more information becomes available we may see more original classes and roles.
When they were handing out fun no one sent the memo to the swg vets.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Cookie cutter classes will ALWAYS be fun, and developers will ALWAYS make games that have cookie cutter classes.
You're saying your bored with it. Ok, theres' some other alternatives out there, and more are being made.
However, it's not like all the MMORPG players that will ever exist started playing games 5 years ago, and now they want some thing new.
That's how your post reads.
Don't forget that millions of kids turn 13 or 14 every day. They have never played MMORPGs before, especially not a P2P game that requires the magic credit card.
For them, it's a brand new fun experience. So Devs will always be updating graphics, making new worlds for these new gamers, and some of those games will always be very successful cookie cutter classes.
Believe it or not, some (most) people don't mind knowing what their role is, what piece of the puzzle they fill. "Cookie cutter" classes are the easiest way of doing that.
You chose the worst class from WoW to make your argument. The Paladin is one of the classes in WoW that has extremely diverse playstyles within the same class. You could break up the Paladin into 3 classes if you wanted, and they'd be completely different in playstyles. For example, you have the Cleric (Holy Talent Spec.), which wears heavy armor, and focuses on healing. Then you have the Crusader (Protection Talent Spec.), which is your heavy armor wearing tank with a shield. Then there's the Avenger (Retribution Talent Spec.), which is your heavy armor wearing, two-handed wielding, holy warrior. Of course, each of these 3 different classes within a class is also a hybrid, meaning it deals divine damage (holy) and melee damage.
Most of the classes, if not all, are that diverse in their specializations. So it is essentially playing 30 different classes in one game, if you're comparing it to a cookie cutter class based game that you are creating this thread for.
30 different playstyles isn't much different from SWG's skill trees. I played SWG, and that character builder brought back memories and a pang of sadness for the loss of such a great game, but to say class based games aren't fun or can't be as fun or diverse is just silly. DAoC is a class based game that had over 40 different classes, many with 3 different ways to play them as well.