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The Expansion. The big reset and the disconnect between player and avatar.
Rockgod99
Member Posts: 4,640
Certain people may have ahard time understanding the title. So I will toss up an example of what i mean.
Your playing a mmorpg, you leveled your avatar and start what most mmorpg players call the "End game".
Everything is going good, you found a guild, a team to pvp with. Your collecting set after set of armor. You've put some real time into your avatar. You've made a connection, you have a sense of pride in what you've done in the game.
Your Epeen is flying high! You have a powerful character and all those months playing were spent on an overall enjoyable experience.
Then a Expansion releases...
Level cap is raised, Your items of great power are replaced easily. This makes you wonder why you even bothered. All those months of gametime that you paid for to get where you are have been reset, it no longer matters.
You start to wade through this new leveling you are required to do and find yourself no longer caring. You don't even want to bother. At this moment you've disconnected from your avatar. Nothing matters, no reward is big enough and the idea of wasting months for this to happen again seems pointless.
This is what my thread title is about.
Now what I want to know is how many of you guys have felt like this before? And if you have why do you think they do this to us? Is it impossible to create an expansion without making all progress reset?
I know what my answer is but I wanna read what you guys think.
Comments
So basically you're saying you're ok with doing the same 'end-game' content over and over with no more content other than that? Why? What a boring game that would become.
You're saying the end-goal of being powerful is the most fun part of the game pretty much. Perhaps you need to try other MMOs than what you have if you haven't had fun in the JOURNEY to that end-goal.
So you need to raise the level cap of the game and replace all progression items with quest gear to add new content?
That's interesting that you feel this way Sheista.
Addition: to comment on your double post... Am i the only one that thinks we play mmorpgs to make a character better/stronger? What do you do while leveling? get more powerful. What do you do at level cap? Get more powerful. I thought everyone knew this.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
So, you think the raiding you did before the expansion mattered? You think it actually meant something? Well, here's a news flash:
EVERYTHING you do in MMOs doesnt matter.
MMOs are video games. They are for entertainment purposes. They are time wasters.
Well... is it mandatory to make everything you achieved pretty much redundant upon expansion release?
They don't need to raise levelcap. And they don't have to make all your achievements useless.
Its a video game of course it doesn't matter compared to important real life stuff.
However with that said, mmos are designed to let the player raise a character. So i guess it does matter in game.
Yeah you can be proud of an accomplishment in game just as someone is proud of painting a model plane or winning at a game of chess. It all holds value to the individual.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
problem is if they dont make your items useless, you will find yourself bored very fast, since everything new you d achieve will go very fast.....everything achieved no reason to keep you playing.
you need the skill/gear grind, to keep you from burning through content....can discuss how its done the best.
I know some people that did feel that way with WoW when TBC hit... but alot of raiders in my Guild didn't care.
Why? The enjoyment from doing the encounters where they got the stuff.
For Some it doing the Content not the loot they got.
Really like to see MMOs get away from gear being so important.
Really? Why not just release more content and let people use those items to clear that content? Why cant zones be added without a level cap being raised? Why do I need to level to be introducted to new factions to work for?
Same goes for pvp. why the need to level again? why not release more maps and new pvp features that people could continue doing? why the reset?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Thats basically why I feel expansions should have a stuttered focus.
1st expansion should expand on the game (adding new levels, new progression and new high level content)
2nd expansion should expand the higher level game while adding new starting zones and new races/classes.
3rd expansion should start to revamp the older game, adding a new background story to the game, making the lower game new/fresh feeling and still add some higher level content.
and basically rinse/repeat.
But I see what Rock is talking about. Too many games release expansion after expansion where the end game is expanded upon which usually makes the raid level gear grind kind of pointless as more often than not your uber gear is easily replaced within the first new levels. This is the reason I never really care about raid grinding (all I really need to do is down the boss once, just so I can say I did it). I dont really give a damn about epic gear (if I get it, great, if I dont, oh well - I have better things to do with my time than chase pixels for epeen status).
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Why would you ever try to introduce anything daring or groundbreaking in a world that is not going to be around in a couple of years? And how much real connection can players or developers have to that game world? I can clearly remember the last time I walked into a valley of spiders, sword in hand, and said I just can't do it anymore.
I always hesitate to tell anyone what the point of an MMORPG is because, in essence, the point is to have fun, and we all have fun playing MMORPGs in different ways. Some players enjoy the socialization (like me), some enjoy character progression (like you), some enjoy a mix of the two, and some simply enjoy playing by themselves for a couple of hours after a long day at work. In that regard, the point of an MMORPG is whatever you want it to be.
I will say, though, that I see nothing wrong with the way current MMOs handle gear upgrades in expansions. For one, all the gear that you "worked so hard" to obtain cannot be used forever. There has to be a point where you must cast aside that gear for a new set, because otherwise, there would be no point in running all the new raids. If only the highest of the end end gear was upgraded with each expansion, you'll end up with a situation similar to that in the original Everquest where it was extremely difficult to catch up to the more hardcore raiders as backflagging and gear progression was an utter pain. When games like WoW allow players to obtain gear from quests in the newest expansion that's better than the raid gear from the previous expansion, the difficulty in catching up with the rest of the raid crowd is lowered significantly as the gear progression can be placed within the confines of raids from a single expansion and not four or five previous expansions that no one ever runs anymore.
Too much emphsis on gear and not enough thought goes into the player content interaction. It always comes down to gear and the rest is just fluff.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I don't play MMOs to waste time, and when I am involved with one and a community, I do think it matters. Just because you can't have sex with it or doesn't make you money doesn't make any more/less important than you personally make it.
So, at endgame if you feel like you lose that hold on the game due to an expansion, it depends on why you play the game. I personally would only be annoyed, but roll with the punch, and continue having fun.
I'm in total agreement about expansions. What gets me is that expansions usually do nothing to end game but have us rerun the same steps as before. It's a new raid dungeon where you get one new set of armor and blah blah blah....
Expansions could fix one of the biggest problems that plagues every MMO.
OFFER BETTER GEAR VARIATION.
Seriously. I left LOTRO because my Dwarf Guardian looked, felt and acted like every other lvl 60 Dwarf Guardian. Even a different choice in armor or a different focus line or a truly unique look and feel would have kept me going.
Expansions need to expand on the game....not add to it. This means creating systems and content that enhance what has already been created. Not adding 5 new levels that i grind for 10 hours and get gear that is basically the same as I had before.
Instead...add new powers/abilities. Add new all level gear. New dungeons that promote new content for alts....any of this....
Just stop making the freaking grind longer to get more shit that is the same as my old shit.
Ugh...at some point Devs will look outside the box.
Exactly, people forget it's a game. All your hard work is ephemeral and will disappear eventually. The game will go under or you'll stop subbing. All those hours are meaningless. Your accomplishments are nothing.
Unless you had fun along the way, at most you can call an MMO a decent pass time.
When an expansion hits, your attitude should be great! more stuff to do and time to waste! If you suffer from a reality check, you were playing for the wrong reasons.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
That's not what I said at all. You're the one saying gear/weapons equate to content. I should mention that I don't like raid-based games at all. There should be a different kind of progression completely, IMO. But that's the type of game you're discussing here. A level-capped, end-game based game. YOU'RE the one talking about level caps here.
You should play the game because you enjoy it, not because you get better. You enjoy doing the content on the way to that max level. You enjoyed leveling, and seeing your character improve how you saw fit. Why would you play a game all the way to max level if that was the only part you were looking forward to?
And drop the "I'm smarter than you" attitude here. That pseudo-intellect crap won't work. I'm playing devil's advocate in this argument because I really have no interest in the sort of game you're describing 'attachment' to. Still, I understand the need for expansions, regardless of what type of MMO it is. And raising a level cap is not a bad thing, even in that type of game.
If it was your goal to get to max level once, why would you not want to do it again? The way you described it, was that you reached your goal. You got all your armor and weapons, and you were this 'badass' in the game world. Ok.. what are you going to DO with that armor and weapons, and your shiney high level? Serious question there. If you've done everything, and your e-peen is soaring, then what do you expect to do with that?
Without an expansion to give you new content, you'd do nothing.. or the same old content over and over. An expansion adds new places to go, new gear to get, new enemies to fight. And you're mad because the level cap was raised, essentially giving that content PURPOSE?
Edit: I should specify.. and sum this all up.
tl:dr version - Why is leveling such a different improvement than getting gear, in a raid-based game like you're describing? What's the difference?
Edit #2: I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy the end-game either. It's important to enjoy it when you get there, which is why they should add more content. But I just don't see the difference in leveling vs. gear as improvement in games like you are describing.
People like to level and all the things going with it. They get shiny new abilities and talents. They feel like they're progressing. It is possible to design all those things without leveling, but it offers little advantage to most folks, and changes some of the flavor.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I'm getting decent flamage here because certain individuals are considering me as a QQ raider. That simply isnt the case what I am all about is character progression and feeling attached to my character.
Expansions (in themepark games atleast) have been taking away from players and certain ones feel a disconnect to their avatars.
Imo an expansion should add to the game and not take away. This is being glossed over by the select few flamers.
Maybe I shouldnt have brought up raid items? maybe I should have brought up hard to get patterns and special crafted items that get reset or Faction reputation rewards that took ages to achieve only to be taken and made worthless by an expansion.
Hopefully enough people will understand and god I hope more developers think outside the box and stop taking away just as much as they add with their xpacs.
Anyway I had this conversation at lunch today during work and it was interesting enough that i wanted to bring it here. Hopefully ill get more that add to the topic and not just add to the flames.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I have to agree, this is definitively something that has always bothered me in gear-centric MMOs. "Working" months to gather up your epics/purples for them to be reduced to useless crap in the next expansion is, in my opinion, stupid and simply an attempt to keep players subbed for several months as they try to get that last epic piece that they are missing.
In no way do I see this as "Character Progression'" at this point. MMOs should be less about gear and more about content.
Actually Sheista was probably accurate in stating your psychological need to feel bad-ass. You mentioned yourself how your epeen was flying. There are a plethora of reasons why expansions force you to level again, and imo, they are good reasons.
1.) Each expansion is a much needed equalizer between the new players and the old players with godly gear.
2.) By definition, progression means to move forward. It'd be a pretty dull story if new zones were added and offered no progression outside of minor gear differences.
3.) The story makes more sense as once you've reached the cap, you've learned that you've only conquered the immediately visible threat and that something more dangerous is lying in wait.
If you're angry at the reset, then why even have a level greater than 1? Maybe you shoulder consider a game where level is not a factor.
Well, what do you want them to do instead? I personally prefer games where you don't have to have been playing since the start to be able to attain parity. If anything, I'd say the developers who first thought "Hey, let's give everybody a level-playing field here" would be the one who was thinking outside the box to me.
Wouldn't mind a game where everybody got mind-wiped or rebooted every now and then just to start things fresh.
You aren't the first person to think that an expansion or patch was a step backwards.
The short answer to the "issue" you are raising is that the games are designed for other players besides yourself. They don't actually take your existing levels and armor away, so if your game enjoyment is dependent on having other players at a disadvantage or having more success than them, then your playstyle is dependent on their game enjoyment anyway.
If this thread is just a way to let off steam for a while because the rat race is getting to you, I'm afraid I can't give you any sympathy. People who run the gauntlet for the carrot-on-the-stick are the very reasons developers keep making easy-to-design linear mazes.
FFXI did the not raising level caps with expansions (well they did with 1 expansion) though i guess you could say they kinda cheated as you stopped gaining levels at 75 but started gaining a new type of experience which gave you points to spend on new skills and stat boosts as a form of character customisation.