To me, it all comes down to the community and comradery that was a huge part of what made FFXI so much fun. With FFXI's required grouping aspect, it forced players to be interactive and to be responsible for their actions. In return, you got to experience parts of the game and reap rewards with others, who worked hard with you to reach those achievements. It's really what hooked me in to MMORPGs. Achieving something with others is just more enjoyable than doing it all on your own, and frankly, solo-intended content is usually not as challenging as group content that requires all parts of the team to work in unison. Now, I've seen some players solo some group-intended content in FFXI (with level caps even), and it was great, but they didn't get to select a difficulty level.
Sure, there are loners out there, who'd prefer to be left alone and just play the game they paid money for. That's fine. They should have a bundle of things to do. However, when you take away required grouping, which is what you would be doing by offering the same rewards, you take away from those important elements of comradery and community. Not to mention, you risk losing the benefit of a community that polices itself.
Spanky, you're absolutely right. This is just opinion, just like 90% of the things posted on these forums, but you played FFXI for 3 years, so they must've had something that held you. Compared to other MMORPGs that allow you to solo most things, FFXI more than holds its own. The grouping is what set it apart, and in my opinion, FFXIV would do well to folow.
I agree completely with that, too.
Two MMOs I've seen the most involved community in, where people knew you by name - for better or worse - and your reputation meant something is FFXI and Lineage 2.... both MMOs where grouping is a necessity in many cases.. though for different reasons.
No arguement here. I still have people I talk to outside the game that I met in FFXI. Best Community in any games I've ever played, hands down. I played it for three years from its launch on PS2 and off and on since then. Couldn't get into Lineage 2 only because I couln't get my head around the point-and-click control system on a 3D game, and they wouldn't let me change it.
So we all get together and setup a guildeve, take time to recruit some players for requisite jobs, etc (however you spell it), it sets our difficulty to group and we go out and have a good time together.
Some other dude who only has an hour to play walks up, signs up for the quest and goes out and has a good time on his own. Then logs off and does what he has to do.
We are not bothering him and he is not bothering us....so again, what's the big deal?
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
I think it is absolutely absurd to think that higher lvl guildleves requiring 15 members at rank 5 will not reward better rewards in the form of drops, quest items, "xp", etc.
Name me one example where the ability to solo the same content vs. a group gives identical rewards? It doesn't exist.
To assume that the difficulty of the guildleve will not have corresponding rewards is silly. SE said they want FFXIV to be different in that there will be solo content for those that do not have the time, nor wish to find groups. They have never said that a solo player will be rewarded and be on equal footing as those who group. I will bet money on the fact that group = better rewards. There is no precedent by SE or any other game maker on this planet to think otherwise.
Some other dude who only has an hour to play walks up, signs up for the quest and goes out and has a good time on his own. Then logs off and does what he has to do.
We are not bothering him and he is not bothering us....so again, what's the big deal?
I don't think anyone is saying this is a big deal except you.
Most of us are just saying there should be better rewards for grouping and you are somehow taking that to mean we are saying there shouldn't be soloing. But that is not what we are saying.
I just hope that this guildleve feature won't solofy the game.
I never did get the concept of playing an MMO to get satisfaction in 30 minutes. it's a game, not a job or a chore (although some make it out to be). Really, why do people insist that they need to see the fruits of their labor of 30 minutes play time. People should know that when they get into an MMO that it's a very involved and time-consuming experience. Catering to these people who don't have more than 30 minutes to play an MMO in a session is just going to ruin the experience for everyone else. Seriously, if you don't have more than 30 minutes a day, you shouldn't be playing an MMO period. We all have lives and jobs and I can understand that as you get older, you don't want an MMO taking all your time. It's your responsibility then to decide not to play. Don't blame the MMO creator or the preference of the community at large for a group-oriented focus.
So Yeah, I just hope that this guildleve gameplay element won't be a big part of FFXIV and that the main content resides in the uninstanced portion of the world (with a clear focus on grouping).
So Yeah, I just hope that this guildleve gameplay element won't be a big part of FFXIV and that the main content resides in the uninstanced portion of the world (with a clear focus on grouping).
From my understanding, the guildleves are going to be a big part of the gameplay element. But don't worry, generally, they are not going to be instanced.
I believe Guildleves are going to be big since you do not recover MP in the field (even out of battle). And yes, I believe all classes will be using MP this time around. That will make it pretty hard to set up camp and grind. My understanding of how the game will be is you go on a guildleve "quest" in a non-instanced part of the world and by the time you are almost done with your quest (Guildleve), you may be running on empty with MP. So once completed, you warp back home, recover all MP, get your Guildleve reward and do a new Guildleve. The Devs have stated the game is being designed so that parties will be on the move.
However, I do believe traditional grinding may be possible but you will have to run back to the Aetheryte crystal to regain MP once you run out. It might pay off to grind Guildleves instead and then at least you will feel like you are accomplishing more than just grinding.
So Yeah, I just hope that this guildleve gameplay element won't be a big part of FFXIV and that the main content resides in the uninstanced portion of the world (with a clear focus on grouping).
From my understanding, the guildleves are going to be a big part of the gameplay element. But don't worry, generally, they are not going to be instanced.
I believe Guildleves are going to be big since you do not recover MP in the field (even out of battle). And yes, I believe all classes will be using MP this time around. That will make it pretty hard to set up camp and grind. My understanding of how the game will be is you go on a guildleve "quest" in a non-instanced part of the world and by the time you are almost done with your quest (Guildleve), you may be running on empty with MP. So once completed, you warp back home, recover all MP, get your Guildleve reward and do a new Guildleve. The Devs have stated the game is being designed so that parties will be on the move.
However, I do believe traditional grinding may be possible but you will have to run back to the Aetheryte crystal to regain MP once you run out. It might pay off to grind Guildleves instead and then at least you will feel like you are accomplishing more than just grinding.
This sounds like what I've heard. Guildleves are being designed to be the primary source of experience gain, and you can do most if not all of them with a group.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I can't believe some of the comments about the combat. Looks too slow? Errr, how was your first combat experience in any other MMO? The same.
You kill something with 1 or 2 moves/techniques until its dead. That's how every RPG I played starts off. Pretty sure it'll feel a bit more fast paced when you actually get your hands on it. No auto attack means you're actually doing something, and not watching your character swing in a timed manner.
I can't believe some of the comments about the combat. Looks too slow? Errr, how was your first combat experience in any other MMO? The same.
You kill something with 1 or 2 moves/techniques until its dead. That's how every RPG I played starts off. Pretty sure it'll feel a bit more fast paced when you actually get your hands on it. No auto attack means you're actually doing something, and not watching your character swing in a timed manner.
Well honestly, at the moment, combat is my only concern, especially with these "battle regimens" - the way they explained them made it sound like combat will be very very slow.
I never played FFXI. But ever since this game was announced I have watched a lot of videos and the combat in FFXI seems so slow it's almost turn based (if this is wrong I would love to know from people who played).
But the combat this time around looks really slow as well. For me, and a lot of other people, if the combat is not fluid and fast then the entire game is ruined - it really is a deal breaker. I want to play this game, it looks absolutely beautiful and some of their ideas sound like a lot of fun. But if the combat is really slow and I feel like I am simply waiting for bars to fill up before I can use a skill, and in the meantime my character is just standing their scratching his arse, then I will have to pass. And I really don't want to.
It's early in alpha so we will have to wait and see, but i really hope they nail combat responsiveness and speed. I honestly believe that will be the difference with this game being successful (because I think it will) and being a superstar (which I am hoping it will be).
Well honestly, at the moment, combat is my only concern, especially with these "battle regimens" - the way they explained them made it sound like combat will be very very slow.
I never played FFXI. But ever since this game was announced I have watched a lot of videos and the combat in FFXI seems so slow it's almost turn based (if this is wrong I would love to know from people who played).
But the combat this time around looks really slow as well. For me, and a lot of other people, if the combat is not fluid and fast then the entire game is ruined - it really is a deal breaker. I want to play this game, it looks absolutely beautiful and some of their ideas sound like a lot of fun. But if the combat is really slow and I feel like I am simply waiting for bars to fill up before I can use a skill, and in the meantime my character is just standing their scratching his arse, then I will have to pass. And I really don't want to.
It's early in alpha so we will have to wait and see, but i really hope they nail combat responsiveness and speed. I honestly believe that will be the difference with this game being successful (because I think it will) and being a superstar (which I am hoping it will be).
Unlike in any other MMO, combat is not just about using skills. Even if you're waiting for the bar to fill up, that's not going to be the only thing you'll be doing. Distance and direction and your position matters too. Some skills work best when used from front of the monster. Some skills can pierce through monsters between you and your target. Some spells are conal AoE, some are centered around you. Skills can enfeeble specific targets so you have to think when to use them and for which monster. If a monster is doing some specific action (like casting or running for the mages) it's your job to take care of that. If a monster misses you, you can use skill to counter it. If you stand on one place and boost your attacks, they become AoE so Where you're standing matters a lot more. If you've figured out a good position, those attacks will do a lot more damage to multiple enemies.
But if you're too busy spamming 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1, you can't multitask. Add in the battle regimens which you should be doing for additional effects, and you'll be glad that using skills isn't so twitch based as it is in other MMO's.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I can't believe some of the comments about the combat. Looks too slow? Errr, how was your first combat experience in any other MMO? The same.
You kill something with 1 or 2 moves/techniques until its dead. That's how every RPG I played starts off. Pretty sure it'll feel a bit more fast paced when you actually get your hands on it. No auto attack means you're actually doing something, and not watching your character swing in a timed manner.
Well honestly, at the moment, combat is my only concern, especially with these "battle regimens" - the way they explained them made it sound like combat will be very very slow.
I never played FFXI. But ever since this game was announced I have watched a lot of videos and the combat in FFXI seems so slow it's almost turn based (if this is wrong I would love to know from people who played).
But the combat this time around looks really slow as well. For me, and a lot of other people, if the combat is not fluid and fast then the entire game is ruined - it really is a deal breaker. I want to play this game, it looks absolutely beautiful and some of their ideas sound like a lot of fun. But if the combat is really slow and I feel like I am simply waiting for bars to fill up before I can use a skill, and in the meantime my character is just standing their scratching his arse, then I will have to pass. And I really don't want to.
It's early in alpha so we will have to wait and see, but i really hope they nail combat responsiveness and speed. I honestly believe that will be the difference with this game being successful (because I think it will) and being a superstar (which I am hoping it will be).
Admittedly, XI really did have a snails pace in terms of combat. The average auto attack with a 2hander was nearly 7secs.
Twitch style combat like WoW is fun at first, I had a blast with it, but it got stale. Much like first person shooters, it's all about spamming keys, waiting for cooldowns and letting loose. Even though you're in a party with WoW, you all nearly act independent with one another. There's no synergy between your attacks, it's all about spamming. Great at first, great for direct PvP. But it's a boring ass play style PvE wise.
The bar really is no different then WoWs rogue and cat druid energy bar. You need to time and chain abilities to get that flow going. Just think of it like a global cooldown. Some classes will have multiple bars, like gladiator with a one hand and shield. Which I plan on being, and keeping track of my abilities, my partys abilities and my bars, while dealing with an enemy? Sounds plenty fast paced to me.
Some other dude who only has an hour to play walks up, signs up for the quest and goes out and has a good time on his own. Then logs off and does what he has to do.
We are not bothering him and he is not bothering us....so again, what's the big deal?
I don't think anyone is saying this is a big deal except you.
Most of us are just saying there should be better rewards for grouping and you are somehow taking that to mean we are saying there shouldn't be soloing. But that is not what we are saying.
Forgive me, I let that component filter out of the conversation. Thank you for reminding me and let me see if I can explain myself better. This whole thing stemmed from SE saying that they were planning on implemending difficulty levels in Guildeves, to which some responded that those who play it at the group difficultly deserve a better reward.
I don't think you deserve better rewards because you played the same content in a group. Here is why:
If I play 'Quest A' solo and its hard to me, then i get 'Reward A' and it feels like I earned it. However, if you guys play the same quest, as a group, at the same level of difficultly...it would be a complete cakewalk for you. In that case, 'Reward A' is probably more that you deserve for the amount of difficulty you encountered. Fair enough?
So, of course the difficulty has to go up for group play, if only to bring it on par with the relative level of difficulty the solo player encounters when he/she plays that quest alone. That said, once the level of difficulty has been raise to the point where the group expereince the same degree of challange as the solo player, then they are certainly entitled to the same degree of reward, for each member of the group.
The only real difference here is that you chose to bring friends. But both the solo player and the group faced teh same relative degree of challenge, had a good time (hopefully) and recieved teh same level of reward.
NOW, if they offer an 'extreme' difficulty setting for 'elite groups' then the reward should go up, but that better be one hard-fought battle. Otherwise why would you deserve a better reward?
So my point is, I don't mind guildeves having difficulty settings and I do not feel that groups are entitled to better rewards unless the relative difficulty of the quest is harder for the group than the solo'er (and not harder because you've fell into a group where half the players don't know how to play their job classes and you had to pick up the slack). as a result, Also, i do not feel that groups should be allowed to select the 'solo' level of difficulty
If groups want better rewards that solo players, that the level of relative difficulty needs to go up accordingly.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
I don't think you deserve better rewards because you played the same content in a group. Here is why:
Okay, I think this is what the problem is. There is a big misunderstanding going on. I can't speak for everyone but I will try to clarify my position. When I was talking about a guildleve that is equally difficult for a group or for a solo player, I wasn't saying a group deserves better rewards for playing the "same content" as the solo player. I would absolutely agree with you on that.
What I was saying, and I think others as well were saying, is that the GL given to a group will be different than the GL given to a soloer. Of course, the GL given to the group would be much much harder to solo (if not impossible) and would be different content than the GL given to the solo player.
However, since the harder GL has a group, the difficulty level for the individual player (not for the GL as a whole) may end up being the same difficulty as the simpler GL for the solo player. And in that event, I feel the rewards should be better for the group to encourage grouping (not that I am saying the rewards should be terrible for the soloer to discourage soloing).
Afterall, you said you liked FFXI and I strongly feel what made FFXI so good (and different from many other MMOs) was the focus on grouping. However, I am totally cool with soloing being available for those who can't find a group or can't play long. But for those who have the time, I feel having an incentive (different than saying the group deserves better rewards) for people to try to find groups will be a really great part of FFXIV.
Well, maybe you will still disagree with me after this but at least we now have some clarity
I don't think you deserve better rewards because you played the same content in a group. Here is why:
Okay, I think this is what the problem is. There is a big misunderstanding going on. I can't speak for everyone but I will try to clarify my position. When I was talking about a guildleve that is equally difficult for a group or for a solo player, I wasn't saying a group deserves better rewards for playing the "same content" as the solo player. I would absolutely agree with you on that.
What I was saying, and I think others as well were saying, is that the GL given to a group will be different than the GL given to a soloer. Of course, the GL given to the group would be much much harder to solo (if not impossible) and would be different content than the GL given to the solo player.
However, since the harder GL has a group, the difficulty level for the individual player (not for the GL as a whole) may end up being the same difficulty as the simpler GL for the solo player. And in that event, I feel the rewards should be better for the group to encourage grouping (not that I am saying the rewards should be terrible for the soloer to discourage soloing).
Afterall, you said you liked FFXI and I strongly feel what made FFXI so good (and different from many other MMOs) was the focus on grouping. However, I am totally cool with soloing being available for those who can't find a group or can't play long. But for those who have the time, I feel having an incentive (different than saying the group deserves better rewards) for people to try to find groups will be a really great part of FFXIV.
Well, maybe you will still disagree with me after this but at least we now have some clarity
Agreed, I believe we are actually in agreement on most points:-) Grouping was absolutely the main reason FFXI was such a great game. People HAD to socialize and behave themselves (A-holes quickly found it difficult to score parties). I don't want anything in the game that would discourage people from playing that way.
But I selfishly admit that, since my time in FFXI, my life has changed to the point where I can no longer dedicate the time required to really enjoy that game. I'm married now with a 3 year old and am an Art Director at a Serious Game studio....it keeps me pretty busy.
While grouping was a big reason why I loved FFXI, it was not the only reason. I loved the art, the vistas, the people, thestories, etc. Hell, one of my favorite things to do was fishing on the boat and waiting for pirates to attack!! I even liked that the boat took 15 minutes from port to port! more than a few times did I not even do anything expect sit in my Mog house and chat with peeps on teh Linkshell.
All these things and a host of other activities i would like to enjoy in FFXIV. However, I simply assumed I wouldn't be able to partake because I can't afford the kind of time commitment 11 required. However, in that SE is making a point to not leave casual players behind this time, maybe I don't have to!
However, I don't want to end up being a second-class citizen in the game because I my life dictates that I cannot play the game like its a part-time job. I certainly don't want to be the poor kind in the hand-me-down armor because the only way i can get the good stuff is by grouping raids that take hours to even organize...that was the reality of FFXI and very much NOT casual-friendly :-(
That said, i don't mind an extra bonus to those who play a quest at group-level difficulty, but it needs to be a trifling difference. That should be enough to encourage people to group as opposed to solo, without punushing those who simply do not have a choice in the matter.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
Well honestly, at the moment, combat is my only concern, especially with these "battle regimens" - the way they explained them made it sound like combat will be very very slow.
I never played FFXI. But ever since this game was announced I have watched a lot of videos and the combat in FFXI seems so slow it's almost turn based (if this is wrong I would love to know from people who played).
But the combat this time around looks really slow as well. For me, and a lot of other people, if the combat is not fluid and fast then the entire game is ruined - it really is a deal breaker. I want to play this game, it looks absolutely beautiful and some of their ideas sound like a lot of fun. But if the combat is really slow and I feel like I am simply waiting for bars to fill up before I can use a skill, and in the meantime my character is just standing their scratching his arse, then I will have to pass. And I really don't want to.
It's early in alpha so we will have to wait and see, but i really hope they nail combat responsiveness and speed. I honestly believe that will be the difference with this game being successful (because I think it will) and being a superstar (which I am hoping it will be).
Unlike in any other MMO, combat is not just about using skills. Even if you're waiting for the bar to fill up, that's not going to be the only thing you'll be doing. Distance and direction and your position matters too. Some skills work best when used from front of the monster. Some skills can pierce through monsters between you and your target. Some spells are conal AoE, some are centered around you. Skills can enfeeble specific targets so you have to think when to use them and for which monster. If a monster is doing some specific action (like casting or running for the mages) it's your job to take care of that. If a monster misses you, you can use skill to counter it. If you stand on one place and boost your attacks, they become AoE so Where you're standing matters a lot more. If you've figured out a good position, those attacks will do a lot more damage to multiple enemies.
But if you're too busy spamming 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1, you can't multitask. Add in the battle regimens which you should be doing for additional effects, and you'll be glad that using skills isn't so twitch based as it is in other MMO's.
I am really keeping an open mind and waiting to see some more videos on how things play out. I really do hope that things will be quite involved and fast paced. I know combat isn't everything but it is a big deal. I am used to a much different combat feel (AOC, WAR, WoW, Aion) so I am hoping combat has really advanced since FFXI. I wouldn't exactly call any of those systems twitch though.
The few pieces of footage I have seen simply have the mobs standing still attacking once in a while and the player standing still attacking once in a while and it's just whoever dies first. Not really a lot of movement going on. I shall watch as it evolves.
I don't think you deserve better rewards because you played the same content in a group. Here is why:
Okay, I think this is what the problem is. There is a big misunderstanding going on. I can't speak for everyone but I will try to clarify my position. When I was talking about a guildleve that is equally difficult for a group or for a solo player, I wasn't saying a group deserves better rewards for playing the "same content" as the solo player. I would absolutely agree with you on that.
What I was saying, and I think others as well were saying, is that the GL given to a group will be different than the GL given to a soloer. Of course, the GL given to the group would be much much harder to solo (if not impossible) and would be different content than the GL given to the solo player.
However, since the harder GL has a group, the difficulty level for the individual player (not for the GL as a whole) may end up being the same difficulty as the simpler GL for the solo player. And in that event, I feel the rewards should be better for the group to encourage grouping (not that I am saying the rewards should be terrible for the soloer to discourage soloing).
Afterall, you said you liked FFXI and I strongly feel what made FFXI so good (and different from many other MMOs) was the focus on grouping. However, I am totally cool with soloing being available for those who can't find a group or can't play long. But for those who have the time, I feel having an incentive (different than saying the group deserves better rewards) for people to try to find groups will be a really great part of FFXIV.
Well, maybe you will still disagree with me after this but at least we now have some clarity
Agreed, I believe we are actually in agreement on most points:-) Grouping was absolutely the main reason FFXI was such a great game. People HAD to socialize and behave themselves (A-holes quickly found it difficult to score parties). I don't want anything in the game that would discourage people from playing that way.
But I selfishly admit that, since my time in FFXI, my life has changed to the point where I can no longer dedicate the time required to really enjoy that game. I'm married now with a 3 year old and am an Art Director at a Serious Game studio....it keeps me pretty busy.
While grouping was a big reason why I loved FFXI, it was not the only reason. I loved the art, the vistas, the people, thestories, etc. Hell, one of my favorite things to do was fishing on the boat and waiting for pirates to attack!! I even liked that the boat took 15 minutes from port to port! more than a few times did I not even do anything expect sit in my Mog house and chat with peeps on teh Linkshell.
All these things and a host of other activities i would like to enjoy in FFXIV. However, I simply assumed I wouldn't be able to partake because I can't afford the kind of time commitment 11 required. However, in that SE is making a point to not leave casual players behind this time, maybe I don't have to!
However, I don't want to end up being a second-class citizen in the game because I my life dictates that I cannot play the game like its a part-time job. I certainly don't want to be the poor kind in the hand-me-down armor because the only way i can get the good stuff is by grouping raids that take hours to even organize...that was the reality of FFXI and very much NOT casual-friendly :-(
That said, i don't mind an extra bonus to those who play a quest at group-level difficulty, but it needs to be a trifling difference. That should be enough to encourage people to group as opposed to solo, without punushing those who simply do not have a choice in the matter.
I totally appreciate your position and I am in a similar position with a family and full time job. However, I don't feel it is fair for the game to suffer just because of my personal situation or that the game should bend to my needs. I will probably solo myself a bit each night during the workweek, but on the weekend, I still think I can get a few hours in and I would like to find a party and not have to solo some more because everyone is soloing and parties are hard to find.
I don't mind not having the best gear if I'm only playing 1/10th of the time of someone else. I wouldn't consider myself a "second class citizen" though. I actually feel that is fair and pretty much expected in an MMO.
I don't think you deserve better rewards because you played the same content in a group. Here is why:
Okay, I think this is what the problem is. There is a big misunderstanding going on. I can't speak for everyone but I will try to clarify my position. When I was talking about a guildleve that is equally difficult for a group or for a solo player, I wasn't saying a group deserves better rewards for playing the "same content" as the solo player. I would absolutely agree with you on that.
What I was saying, and I think others as well were saying, is that the GL given to a group will be different than the GL given to a soloer. Of course, the GL given to the group would be much much harder to solo (if not impossible) and would be different content than the GL given to the solo player.
However, since the harder GL has a group, the difficulty level for the individual player (not for the GL as a whole) may end up being the same difficulty as the simpler GL for the solo player. And in that event, I feel the rewards should be better for the group to encourage grouping (not that I am saying the rewards should be terrible for the soloer to discourage soloing).
Afterall, you said you liked FFXI and I strongly feel what made FFXI so good (and different from many other MMOs) was the focus on grouping. However, I am totally cool with soloing being available for those who can't find a group or can't play long. But for those who have the time, I feel having an incentive (different than saying the group deserves better rewards) for people to try to find groups will be a really great part of FFXIV.
Well, maybe you will still disagree with me after this but at least we now have some clarity
Agreed, I believe we are actually in agreement on most points:-) Grouping was absolutely the main reason FFXI was such a great game. People HAD to socialize and behave themselves (A-holes quickly found it difficult to score parties). I don't want anything in the game that would discourage people from playing that way.
But I selfishly admit that, since my time in FFXI, my life has changed to the point where I can no longer dedicate the time required to really enjoy that game. I'm married now with a 3 year old and am an Art Director at a Serious Game studio....it keeps me pretty busy.
While grouping was a big reason why I loved FFXI, it was not the only reason. I loved the art, the vistas, the people, thestories, etc. Hell, one of my favorite things to do was fishing on the boat and waiting for pirates to attack!! I even liked that the boat took 15 minutes from port to port! more than a few times did I not even do anything expect sit in my Mog house and chat with peeps on teh Linkshell.
All these things and a host of other activities i would like to enjoy in FFXIV. However, I simply assumed I wouldn't be able to partake because I can't afford the kind of time commitment 11 required. However, in that SE is making a point to not leave casual players behind this time, maybe I don't have to!
However, I don't want to end up being a second-class citizen in the game because I my life dictates that I cannot play the game like its a part-time job. I certainly don't want to be the poor kind in the hand-me-down armor because the only way i can get the good stuff is by grouping raids that take hours to even organize...that was the reality of FFXI and very much NOT casual-friendly :-(
That said, i don't mind an extra bonus to those who play a quest at group-level difficulty, but it needs to be a trifling difference. That should be enough to encourage people to group as opposed to solo, without punushing those who simply do not have a choice in the matter.
I totally appreciate your position and I am in a similar position with a family and full time job. However, I don't feel it is fair for the game to suffer just because of my personal situation or that the game should bend to my needs. I will probably solo myself a bit each night during the workweek, but on the weekend, I still think I can get a few hours in and I would like to find a party and not have to solo some more because everyone is soloing and parties are hard to find.
I don't mind not having the best gear if I'm only playing 1/10th of the time of someone else. I wouldn't consider myself a "second class citizen" though. I actually feel that is fair and pretty much expected in an MMO.
Yea, but you remember how much hell you catch in FFXI if you are wearing the wrong gear, using the wrong job combo, blah blah blah. 'No dude, yer a lvl 30 rng/nin and you aren't wearing NOCT gear?"
The catch for us may be that, when we want to score a group, we might not be as desirable as the guys who either play a ton and have the gil to wear 'the right stuff' or the guys who use RMT and buy the junk anyways.(I remember seeing Hawker +1's go from 280,000 Gil to something like 11 Million a piece?!)
I dunno man, we'll have to see. my mind is painting this game with a heavy FFXI brush, but SE has said it will have a substantial number of differences. Here's hoping I guess.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
Yea, but you remember how much hell you catch in FFXI if you are wearing the wrong gear, using the wrong job combo, blah blah blah. 'No dude, yer a lvl 30 rng/nin and you aren't wearing NOCT gear?"
The catch for us may be that, when we want to score a group, we might not be as desirable as the guys who either play a ton and have the gil to wear 'the right stuff' or the guys who use RMT and buy the junk anyways.(I remember seeing Hawker +1's go from 280,000 Gil to something like 11 Million a piece?!)
I dunno man, we'll have to see. my mind is painting this game with a heavy FFXI brush, but SE has said it will have a substantial number of differences. Here's hoping I guess.
I don't certainly remember that kind of thing. There are few elitists around that point out flaws like that because they are retards, but there was no justifying reason for that from the mechanic standpoint. Gear didn't matter as much at lower levels as it did at higher level. As long as you're wearing Something, that's enough.
The higher you get, the more important gear becomes though. However, if you're using "ok" gear then you will do fine, and only elitists are there to tell you you won't. Which doesn't make sense in the first place, so the best thing to do is ignore the idiots (like with every game) and keep doing fine enough.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Yea, but you remember how much hell you catch in FFXI if you are wearing the wrong gear, using the wrong job combo, blah blah blah. 'No dude, yer a lvl 30 rng/nin and you aren't wearing NOCT gear?"
The catch for us may be that, when we want to score a group, we might not be as desirable as the guys who either play a ton and have the gil to wear 'the right stuff' or the guys who use RMT and buy the junk anyways.(I remember seeing Hawker +1's go from 280,000 Gil to something like 11 Million a piece?!)
I dunno man, we'll have to see. my mind is painting this game with a heavy FFXI brush, but SE has said it will have a substantial number of differences. Here's hoping I guess.
I don't certainly remember that kind of thing. There are few elitists around that point out flaws like that because they are retards, but there was no justifying reason for that from the mechanic standpoint. Gear didn't matter as much at lower levels as it did at higher level. As long as you're wearing Something, that's enough.
The higher you get, the more important gear becomes though. However, if you're using "ok" gear then you will do fine, and only elitists are there to tell you you won't. Which doesn't make sense in the first place, so the best thing to do is ignore the idiots (like with every game) and keep doing fine enough.
Agreed. I never heard any complaints about gear until the max levels of the game, and even then people didn't care until more expansions and raids came out. I sometimes wore gear that was 10 levels down from where I was and nobody cared. Those expensive pieces of gear just set you above the curve, but you never needed any of them to level. They got so expensive because the economy of FFXI was really bad. Buying anything was not easy. But this did help people care less about gear. As long as you were wearing gear that was for you class nobody cared.
Agreed. I never heard any complaints about gear until the max levels of the game, and even then people didn't care until more expansions and raids came out. I sometimes wore gear that was 10 levels down from where I was and nobody cared. Those expensive pieces of gear just set you above the curve, but you never needed any of them to level. They got so expensive because the economy of FFXI was really bad. Buying anything was not easy. But this did help people care less about gear. As long as you were wearing gear that was for you class nobody cared.
Well, the elitists cared no matter the level, but there wasn't a justifying reason for it before the upper levels.
The point is to ignore them like you ignore the 12 year olds that spam LOLOLOLNOOBFAG in other games.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
So....the RMT thing doesn't bother me, even in subscription games IF.....IF.....there is no meaningful gear/weapons, etc. in the shops. OR....there is a separate server for people who WANT to be able to buy meaningful things with cash (ala EQ2).
But this last post I read....led me to believe that the item shop in the FF MMOs has gear with stats....for cash?? And not on a separate server from everyone else?
Am I understanding that correctly?????? I hope not. This is the first FF game since FFVII and FFVIII that interess me, but that....that would be a game breaker for me.
So....the RMT thing doesn't bother me, even in subscription games IF.....IF.....there is no meaningful gear/weapons, etc. in the shops. OR....there is a separate server for people who WANT to be able to buy meaningful things with cash (ala EQ2).
But this last post I read....led me to believe that the item shop in the FF MMOs has gear with stats....for cash?? And not on a separate server from everyone else?
Am I understanding that correctly?????? I hope not. This is the first FF game since FFVII and FFVIII that interess me, but that....that would be a game breaker for me.
What are you talking about?
"Cash" as in $$ or "cash" as in in-game currency?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
If so, nothing like that will be in XIV.. although there might be statless gear available for cash, for aesthetical purposes. Too bad, but could be worse.
Everything else is bought using in-game currency.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Yes, I was talking about REAL WORLD cash and I'm glad to hear that I was not understanding correctly.
Like I said....I don't mind RMT that has fluff items....but I would NOT be cool with items that give a distinct advantage. So...YAY! Thanks for your quick answer you three.
Yes, I was talking about REAL WORLD cash and I'm glad to hear that I was not understanding correctly.
Like I said....I don't mind RMT that has fluff items....but I would NOT be cool with items that give a distinct advantage. So...YAY! Thanks for your quick answer you three.
Believe it (and be relieved) when the game releases.
I can't say game-changing item WILL be in, but no one outside of SE can say for certain that they won't.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Comments
No arguement here. I still have people I talk to outside the game that I met in FFXI. Best Community in any games I've ever played, hands down. I played it for three years from its launch on PS2 and off and on since then. Couldn't get into Lineage 2 only because I couln't get my head around the point-and-click control system on a 3D game, and they wouldn't let me change it.
So we all get together and setup a guildeve, take time to recruit some players for requisite jobs, etc (however you spell it), it sets our difficulty to group and we go out and have a good time together.
Some other dude who only has an hour to play walks up, signs up for the quest and goes out and has a good time on his own. Then logs off and does what he has to do.
We are not bothering him and he is not bothering us....so again, what's the big deal?
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
I think it is absolutely absurd to think that higher lvl guildleves requiring 15 members at rank 5 will not reward better rewards in the form of drops, quest items, "xp", etc.
Name me one example where the ability to solo the same content vs. a group gives identical rewards? It doesn't exist.
To assume that the difficulty of the guildleve will not have corresponding rewards is silly. SE said they want FFXIV to be different in that there will be solo content for those that do not have the time, nor wish to find groups. They have never said that a solo player will be rewarded and be on equal footing as those who group. I will bet money on the fact that group = better rewards. There is no precedent by SE or any other game maker on this planet to think otherwise.
I don't think anyone is saying this is a big deal except you.
Most of us are just saying there should be better rewards for grouping and you are somehow taking that to mean we are saying there shouldn't be soloing. But that is not what we are saying.
I just hope that this guildleve feature won't solofy the game.
I never did get the concept of playing an MMO to get satisfaction in 30 minutes. it's a game, not a job or a chore (although some make it out to be). Really, why do people insist that they need to see the fruits of their labor of 30 minutes play time. People should know that when they get into an MMO that it's a very involved and time-consuming experience. Catering to these people who don't have more than 30 minutes to play an MMO in a session is just going to ruin the experience for everyone else. Seriously, if you don't have more than 30 minutes a day, you shouldn't be playing an MMO period. We all have lives and jobs and I can understand that as you get older, you don't want an MMO taking all your time. It's your responsibility then to decide not to play. Don't blame the MMO creator or the preference of the community at large for a group-oriented focus.
So Yeah, I just hope that this guildleve gameplay element won't be a big part of FFXIV and that the main content resides in the uninstanced portion of the world (with a clear focus on grouping).
-my 2 pennies.
From my understanding, the guildleves are going to be a big part of the gameplay element. But don't worry, generally, they are not going to be instanced.
I believe Guildleves are going to be big since you do not recover MP in the field (even out of battle). And yes, I believe all classes will be using MP this time around. That will make it pretty hard to set up camp and grind. My understanding of how the game will be is you go on a guildleve "quest" in a non-instanced part of the world and by the time you are almost done with your quest (Guildleve), you may be running on empty with MP. So once completed, you warp back home, recover all MP, get your Guildleve reward and do a new Guildleve. The Devs have stated the game is being designed so that parties will be on the move.
However, I do believe traditional grinding may be possible but you will have to run back to the Aetheryte crystal to regain MP once you run out. It might pay off to grind Guildleves instead and then at least you will feel like you are accomplishing more than just grinding.
This sounds like what I've heard. Guildleves are being designed to be the primary source of experience gain, and you can do most if not all of them with a group.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I can't believe some of the comments about the combat. Looks too slow? Errr, how was your first combat experience in any other MMO? The same.
You kill something with 1 or 2 moves/techniques until its dead. That's how every RPG I played starts off. Pretty sure it'll feel a bit more fast paced when you actually get your hands on it. No auto attack means you're actually doing something, and not watching your character swing in a timed manner.
Well honestly, at the moment, combat is my only concern, especially with these "battle regimens" - the way they explained them made it sound like combat will be very very slow.
I never played FFXI. But ever since this game was announced I have watched a lot of videos and the combat in FFXI seems so slow it's almost turn based (if this is wrong I would love to know from people who played).
But the combat this time around looks really slow as well. For me, and a lot of other people, if the combat is not fluid and fast then the entire game is ruined - it really is a deal breaker. I want to play this game, it looks absolutely beautiful and some of their ideas sound like a lot of fun. But if the combat is really slow and I feel like I am simply waiting for bars to fill up before I can use a skill, and in the meantime my character is just standing their scratching his arse, then I will have to pass. And I really don't want to.
It's early in alpha so we will have to wait and see, but i really hope they nail combat responsiveness and speed. I honestly believe that will be the difference with this game being successful (because I think it will) and being a superstar (which I am hoping it will be).
Unlike in any other MMO, combat is not just about using skills. Even if you're waiting for the bar to fill up, that's not going to be the only thing you'll be doing. Distance and direction and your position matters too. Some skills work best when used from front of the monster. Some skills can pierce through monsters between you and your target. Some spells are conal AoE, some are centered around you. Skills can enfeeble specific targets so you have to think when to use them and for which monster. If a monster is doing some specific action (like casting or running for the mages) it's your job to take care of that. If a monster misses you, you can use skill to counter it. If you stand on one place and boost your attacks, they become AoE so Where you're standing matters a lot more. If you've figured out a good position, those attacks will do a lot more damage to multiple enemies.
But if you're too busy spamming 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1, you can't multitask. Add in the battle regimens which you should be doing for additional effects, and you'll be glad that using skills isn't so twitch based as it is in other MMO's.
Admittedly, XI really did have a snails pace in terms of combat. The average auto attack with a 2hander was nearly 7secs.
Twitch style combat like WoW is fun at first, I had a blast with it, but it got stale. Much like first person shooters, it's all about spamming keys, waiting for cooldowns and letting loose. Even though you're in a party with WoW, you all nearly act independent with one another. There's no synergy between your attacks, it's all about spamming. Great at first, great for direct PvP. But it's a boring ass play style PvE wise.
The bar really is no different then WoWs rogue and cat druid energy bar. You need to time and chain abilities to get that flow going. Just think of it like a global cooldown. Some classes will have multiple bars, like gladiator with a one hand and shield. Which I plan on being, and keeping track of my abilities, my partys abilities and my bars, while dealing with an enemy? Sounds plenty fast paced to me.
Forgive me, I let that component filter out of the conversation. Thank you for reminding me and let me see if I can explain myself better. This whole thing stemmed from SE saying that they were planning on implemending difficulty levels in Guildeves, to which some responded that those who play it at the group difficultly deserve a better reward.
I don't think you deserve better rewards because you played the same content in a group. Here is why:
If I play 'Quest A' solo and its hard to me, then i get 'Reward A' and it feels like I earned it. However, if you guys play the same quest, as a group, at the same level of difficultly...it would be a complete cakewalk for you. In that case, 'Reward A' is probably more that you deserve for the amount of difficulty you encountered. Fair enough?
So, of course the difficulty has to go up for group play, if only to bring it on par with the relative level of difficulty the solo player encounters when he/she plays that quest alone. That said, once the level of difficulty has been raise to the point where the group expereince the same degree of challange as the solo player, then they are certainly entitled to the same degree of reward, for each member of the group.
The only real difference here is that you chose to bring friends. But both the solo player and the group faced teh same relative degree of challenge, had a good time (hopefully) and recieved teh same level of reward.
NOW, if they offer an 'extreme' difficulty setting for 'elite groups' then the reward should go up, but that better be one hard-fought battle. Otherwise why would you deserve a better reward?
So my point is, I don't mind guildeves having difficulty settings and I do not feel that groups are entitled to better rewards unless the relative difficulty of the quest is harder for the group than the solo'er (and not harder because you've fell into a group where half the players don't know how to play their job classes and you had to pick up the slack). as a result, Also, i do not feel that groups should be allowed to select the 'solo' level of difficulty
If groups want better rewards that solo players, that the level of relative difficulty needs to go up accordingly.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
Okay, I think this is what the problem is. There is a big misunderstanding going on. I can't speak for everyone but I will try to clarify my position. When I was talking about a guildleve that is equally difficult for a group or for a solo player, I wasn't saying a group deserves better rewards for playing the "same content" as the solo player. I would absolutely agree with you on that.
What I was saying, and I think others as well were saying, is that the GL given to a group will be different than the GL given to a soloer. Of course, the GL given to the group would be much much harder to solo (if not impossible) and would be different content than the GL given to the solo player.
However, since the harder GL has a group, the difficulty level for the individual player (not for the GL as a whole) may end up being the same difficulty as the simpler GL for the solo player. And in that event, I feel the rewards should be better for the group to encourage grouping (not that I am saying the rewards should be terrible for the soloer to discourage soloing).
Afterall, you said you liked FFXI and I strongly feel what made FFXI so good (and different from many other MMOs) was the focus on grouping. However, I am totally cool with soloing being available for those who can't find a group or can't play long. But for those who have the time, I feel having an incentive (different than saying the group deserves better rewards) for people to try to find groups will be a really great part of FFXIV.
Well, maybe you will still disagree with me after this but at least we now have some clarity
Agreed, I believe we are actually in agreement on most points:-) Grouping was absolutely the main reason FFXI was such a great game. People HAD to socialize and behave themselves (A-holes quickly found it difficult to score parties). I don't want anything in the game that would discourage people from playing that way.
But I selfishly admit that, since my time in FFXI, my life has changed to the point where I can no longer dedicate the time required to really enjoy that game. I'm married now with a 3 year old and am an Art Director at a Serious Game studio....it keeps me pretty busy.
While grouping was a big reason why I loved FFXI, it was not the only reason. I loved the art, the vistas, the people, thestories, etc. Hell, one of my favorite things to do was fishing on the boat and waiting for pirates to attack!! I even liked that the boat took 15 minutes from port to port! more than a few times did I not even do anything expect sit in my Mog house and chat with peeps on teh Linkshell.
All these things and a host of other activities i would like to enjoy in FFXIV. However, I simply assumed I wouldn't be able to partake because I can't afford the kind of time commitment 11 required. However, in that SE is making a point to not leave casual players behind this time, maybe I don't have to!
However, I don't want to end up being a second-class citizen in the game because I my life dictates that I cannot play the game like its a part-time job. I certainly don't want to be the poor kind in the hand-me-down armor because the only way i can get the good stuff is by grouping raids that take hours to even organize...that was the reality of FFXI and very much NOT casual-friendly :-(
That said, i don't mind an extra bonus to those who play a quest at group-level difficulty, but it needs to be a trifling difference. That should be enough to encourage people to group as opposed to solo, without punushing those who simply do not have a choice in the matter.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
I am really keeping an open mind and waiting to see some more videos on how things play out. I really do hope that things will be quite involved and fast paced. I know combat isn't everything but it is a big deal. I am used to a much different combat feel (AOC, WAR, WoW, Aion) so I am hoping combat has really advanced since FFXI. I wouldn't exactly call any of those systems twitch though.
The few pieces of footage I have seen simply have the mobs standing still attacking once in a while and the player standing still attacking once in a while and it's just whoever dies first. Not really a lot of movement going on. I shall watch as it evolves.
I totally appreciate your position and I am in a similar position with a family and full time job. However, I don't feel it is fair for the game to suffer just because of my personal situation or that the game should bend to my needs. I will probably solo myself a bit each night during the workweek, but on the weekend, I still think I can get a few hours in and I would like to find a party and not have to solo some more because everyone is soloing and parties are hard to find.
I don't mind not having the best gear if I'm only playing 1/10th of the time of someone else. I wouldn't consider myself a "second class citizen" though. I actually feel that is fair and pretty much expected in an MMO.
Yea, but you remember how much hell you catch in FFXI if you are wearing the wrong gear, using the wrong job combo, blah blah blah. 'No dude, yer a lvl 30 rng/nin and you aren't wearing NOCT gear?"
The catch for us may be that, when we want to score a group, we might not be as desirable as the guys who either play a ton and have the gil to wear 'the right stuff' or the guys who use RMT and buy the junk anyways.(I remember seeing Hawker +1's go from 280,000 Gil to something like 11 Million a piece?!)
I dunno man, we'll have to see. my mind is painting this game with a heavy FFXI brush, but SE has said it will have a substantial number of differences. Here's hoping I guess.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
I don't certainly remember that kind of thing. There are few elitists around that point out flaws like that because they are retards, but there was no justifying reason for that from the mechanic standpoint. Gear didn't matter as much at lower levels as it did at higher level. As long as you're wearing Something, that's enough.
The higher you get, the more important gear becomes though. However, if you're using "ok" gear then you will do fine, and only elitists are there to tell you you won't. Which doesn't make sense in the first place, so the best thing to do is ignore the idiots (like with every game) and keep doing fine enough.
Agreed. I never heard any complaints about gear until the max levels of the game, and even then people didn't care until more expansions and raids came out. I sometimes wore gear that was 10 levels down from where I was and nobody cared. Those expensive pieces of gear just set you above the curve, but you never needed any of them to level. They got so expensive because the economy of FFXI was really bad. Buying anything was not easy. But this did help people care less about gear. As long as you were wearing gear that was for you class nobody cared.
Well, the elitists cared no matter the level, but there wasn't a justifying reason for it before the upper levels.
The point is to ignore them like you ignore the 12 year olds that spam LOLOLOLNOOBFAG in other games.
So....the RMT thing doesn't bother me, even in subscription games IF.....IF.....there is no meaningful gear/weapons, etc. in the shops. OR....there is a separate server for people who WANT to be able to buy meaningful things with cash (ala EQ2).
But this last post I read....led me to believe that the item shop in the FF MMOs has gear with stats....for cash?? And not on a separate server from everyone else?
Am I understanding that correctly?????? I hope not. This is the first FF game since FFVII and FFVIII that interess me, but that....that would be a game breaker for me.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
What are you talking about?
"Cash" as in $$ or "cash" as in in-game currency?
I'm pretty sure she isn't talking 'Gil'.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If so, nothing like that will be in XIV.. although there might be statless gear available for cash, for aesthetical purposes. Too bad, but could be worse.
Everything else is bought using in-game currency.
Yes, I was talking about REAL WORLD cash and I'm glad to hear that I was not understanding correctly.
Like I said....I don't mind RMT that has fluff items....but I would NOT be cool with items that give a distinct advantage. So...YAY! Thanks for your quick answer you three.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Believe it (and be relieved) when the game releases.
I can't say game-changing item WILL be in, but no one outside of SE can say for certain that they won't.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2