Brb having tank classes, heal classes, dps classes, and caster classes
Brb played each of those classes in another game
Brb not having any freedom in the way I want to build a character.
Every fucking game is the same now, and all it does is give a bad influence for future mmo's (As seen by the horrible lineup of games coming out in near future)
I am a very demanding player,but i can tell you i enjoy the vanilla type class design.
I think part of your hate for the system stems from you wanting to design your own player.Well in FFXI it had i beleive 20 classes and as far as i am concerned EVERY single idea has been used/thought of,so what woudl be left that you could possibly design,that is not already in the game?
No matter what type of player you want to design,it still takes thought correct?You either want to be able to DPS or take damage or fight melee or from afar,no game is going to allow you do EVERYTHING great.So your choice is to have a nicely designed class [by the developer] or make your own half ass average run of the mill not good at anything class.IMO it seems rather a simple choice.
Basically i would like to hear what EXACTLY it is about his system that bothers you aside from already been done several times?#d graphics have been done several times ,do we go back to 2D graphics now?Swords/Axes/staves/Daggers already done a million times,do we not use these anymore either?Just because something has been done before ,it does not mean it isn't a great idea.Heck i would love to see ALL games use the FFXI sub class system,i would never get tired of it.
Anyhow FFXIV is attempting to make the best use of what the OP wants,you can switch your weapon and become a totally new class and yo uget to choose many areas to put your stats into .(I guarantee there will be some flaws exploited bytthis design,possibly the developer will be forced to make tons of tweaks to make it doable.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Seeing as RPG's are games based around combat the "cookie cutter" classes are the only way to go. As most of the current crop of games are based on medieval melee and ranged combat techniques, with magic added, there isn't much liberty to alter the basic construct. Much of the classes are even similar to modern military, with heavily armored forces and infantry breaching the enemy's defences (tank), artillery and air force for destruction (dps), medical, logistics, and surveillance for support (healers, buffers), and various type of special forces such as commando units, snipers, precision missiles for surgical strikes (rouge).
If you take this away from games they are no longer RPG's, and thus not MMORPG's (they can however be MMO's). What people seem to be wanting are closer to simulators or economic games. Agree or disagree on whether this is a good idea, it is not really within the scope of MMORPG's to deliver.
How babout i want to play mage with 2 handed sword with rouge nimbles? I cant in games like uo i could. You fail at "wouldnt be rpg part"
The games I've played allow for some hybrids between the classes, but not the ability to be two classes. This makes sense since this induces grouping and variation between players of different classes. Also, choosing a hybrid is usually not too popular because most games work on the "jack of all trades, master of none" principle and people don't like being gimped.
They did... it was called SWG where you could make pretty much any kind of character you wanted out of all types of skills... then SoE killed it...by listening to the whiners who felt the game was to "hard" and seeing what WoW was doing to please the "instant gradification players"
Let's face it, we where once a majority of gamers that wanted more out of our MMORPG experiance, these day's we're just a small minority compared to the "instant gradification players"
So it's not about "when companies finaly realize it", it's when the players finaly realize just how small we are these day's, and we all know money talks. (unfortunaly)
Thankfully there are still companies trying to break the mold, though I doubt we will see this from the so-called A-Title companies.
they'll stop the day they stop getting billions of dollars from the cookie cutter formula. Things are popular for a reason, usually because it's better than the rest of the crap out there.
"World of Warcraft is the perfect implementation of this genre." - Hilmar Petursson. CEO of CCP.
I think the bottom line of this discussion is that many of the larger companies are just milking the population of ridiculous item mall abusers. I'll admit I have been drawn a few times and everytime I feel like a idiot cause I blew $50 on a game I played for 2-3 months.
This is basic breakdown of a games life:
CB: Addicted gamers with no life fill up the open slots
OB: Addicted gamers come back get to lvl 50 in a day and ruin the game for everyone else
Full release: Normally a few months after OB after maybe one or two patchs leaving, a not that finished, finished product. Item mall released, addicted morons blow thousands of dollars to get a pointless advantage and ruin the game.
Full release (month 1): As these games are mostly "North American" you can guess you got a bunch dumb shits, that live outside North America, already at max level, flooding the chat with their Effing language and destorying any economy the game might have had by abusing their knowledge and farming all profitable items to extinction. (Honestly no offence because without you making these games North Americans would be stuck with shit, but seriously stick to your own version.)
Full release (month 2): The game has reached server overloading levels and the company is promoting their million player game. In reality you have 700,000 botting/scam spammers accounts and 75% of original players gone because of laggy conditions or pricks that monopolize everything enjoyable in the game.
Full release (month 3): A patch is released and veterins return. The economy is broken, most botters have given up because all actual players have quit and they are to easy to pick out. A small handful of players come each day, but not as many as there are people quitting. Once everyone realizes the patch is shit maybe a week after its release they all quit again.
THE END
Yep thats it. Time for developer XYZ to pick a new project so they can lure fools to max out their credit cards again.
A game is easier to balance when you have cookie cutter classes. It's not so much a matter of fun as it is developers taking the easy road.
My idea of fun is no classes at all, but rather incorporating skills as you go along. Some people do like classes and labels though.
Can you show us a system of your own creation (don't cheat and use someone else's system) which hundreds of skills which you can demostrate is balanced by using math to prove it. If the devs are just being lazy, I would like to see your proof of concept.
A game is easier to balance when you have cookie cutter classes. It's not so much a matter of fun as it is developers taking the easy road.
My idea of fun is no classes at all, but rather incorporating skills as you go along. Some people do like classes and labels though.
Can you show us a system of your own creation (don't cheat and use someone else's system) which hundreds of skills which you can demostrate is balanced by using math to prove it. If the devs are just being lazy, I would like to see your proof of concept.
Why defend the developers?
Honestly stop! Take a extra year and make a half decent game. Of course every game you see on here is already made. They have no ability to make changes because of legal contracts. I still would like to see these asian game developers make something new and decent. No matter how much we boycott stuff here it won't change much because our games are just poorly translated versions of another game.
Why are people blaming the class structure when it's the gameplay that is beginning to bore them?
Thank your developer-oriented mind, GT.
That was what I was getting at before - in that the current system of "get HP to 0 to kill creature", where all different abilities are just different ways of getting that HP to 0.
In some cases, abilities are movement-based (in WoW - sprint/shadow step (rogue), disengage (hunter), blink (mage), death grip? (death knight)) etc. - but they are just different means to the same end.
What if you could "take down" a player? Or have a K.O. system? Isn't it a bit strange that we just run about killing things and people all day long? "How was your day honey?" "Oh, just went and killed a whole cave (and culture) of Kobolds. You know, the ones that primarily mine and like their candles. Yeah. Those guys."
Perhaps you could have several different ways of "defeating a player/creature" - respect, compassion, submission
For some creatures - say Orcs - respect/submission are much easier - submission moreso than respect. In that case, being a player with a good deal of strong damaging abilties will be the "easiest" way to beat the Orc. Note that I am talking a savage type of Orc that knows no fear - that sort of crap.
Respect could be gained through parries, dodging... man...
Anyway, without creating everything in theory right here and now (as I'm heading out now) - you can see where I'm going with this?
Perhaps there should be other ways of defeating enemies - or even just other goals than just "defeat everything! Oh look, it's C'thun! Let's defeat him! Woo, his HP is 0! Now Illidan's out and about - woo, his HP is 0! And I got loot to increase me HP damaging abilities! And now Arthas is out! Etc. etc. rinse wash repeat."
If a player wants to be some sort of business-man, you should allow them to - if the case is there are skills to learn, that take as much time/exp/whatever to get as a combatitive player's life might take, then you should allow other methods of offensive/defensive capabilities for that player - allow henchmen, who run on money, who, in numbers, can best even other players (you know, 4 on 1, as to not make them Overpowered)
If someone wants to explore, make them able to climb mountains - make it some sort of exclusive thing - a secondary-type skill that must have a quest chain or something that gives them the "mountain climbing" ability, or the ability to use some sort of mountain hiking boots, that allows you to climb difficult slopes - or a grappling hook, that pulls the player to it.
Ok, I'ma really stop again. Have fun arguing amongst yourselfs for the next while
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
They did... it was called SWG where you could make pretty much any kind of character you wanted out of all types of skills... then SoE killed it...
Played pre-cu and CU. I literally cannot have fun in a mmo anymore after playing.
(I was secretley referring to swg in comparison to the shit games produced now when I started thread)
This farce that is so often perpetrated by some of my fellow SWG vet's is just a tired statement to make. While my friends who specialized in crafting, being a medic or entertainercould fight they were not as adept at combat as those who specialized in combat classes so why is it people always try to make it like the mechanics worked any different in SWG? Sure you could drop your class and take a combat class but if I remember right you lost all experience and essentially started over at first level again, which is no different than erasing your cookie cutter fighter and giving him the same appearance/name with a different class.
From my memory in some ways SWG was actually even more restrictive than some of the newer cookie cutter mmo's. I recall quite a few occasions where without the ability to heal myself I was lost and spent half the night/session getting my butt handed to me and since have played lot's of those same "cookie cutter" classes and have found some innovative ideas used to help alleviate the need for others which was certainly not the way SWG was.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I'd like to be able to create my own character but even if they were to loosen the forced roles it would be a step in the right direction.
For example look at WoW paladins or druid. Why did they force you to spec and gear into a certain role? Why couldn't you be just good at everything while other classes are better.
Why do you even need to force a role down a persons throat at all? Why can't a plate wearing cleric tank or a mage with shield/protection spells? Why can't a mage shield damage from a tank instead of a healer healing the damage taken? Why are there even glass cannon in existance? The idea that all I do is dps I can't take any hits is stupid.
I can't believe that we are all to stupid to realize what you would need to bring or prepare to fill certain roles. And if we open more roles to more classes without having to spec and respec over and over again or run to the bank to swap gear grouping would be quicker and easier.
Why do you even need to force a role down a persons throat at all? Why can't a plate wearing cleric tank or a mage with shield/protection spells? Why can't a mage shield damage from a tank instead of a healer healing the damage taken?
You're certainly free to make or play a game where those are options, but there's no reason to get upset with other people for not making that choice. It might just be that such a thing doesn't fit their desired theme for their game.
Agreed. When I read you post I was reminded of Dungeon Siege (the first one.) That was a class-based/classless hybrid system that I feel worked out very well. You could be anything you want, just pick a skill and use it. Then it was back to usage-based skill progression. Items still had an important part to play, but it was a sideline to the fact that skills only improve when you use them. IMO, a perfect MMO would combine this more loosely class-based system with something similar to WoW or LoTRO.
Why do you even need to force a role down a persons throat at all? Why can't a plate wearing cleric tank or a mage with shield/protection spells? Why can't a mage shield damage from a tank instead of a healer healing the damage taken?
You're certainly free to make or play a game where those are options, but there's no reason to get upset with other people for not making that choice. It might just be that such a thing doesn't fit their desired theme for their game.
Why are you getting defensive? They were only questions I wasn't beating on my keyboard as I typed them. I am simply trying to spur thought in people whom think this is how it is done period no reason to discuss it anymore.
Why do you even need to force a role down a persons throat at all? Why can't a plate wearing cleric tank or a mage with shield/protection spells? Why can't a mage shield damage from a tank instead of a healer healing the damage taken?
You're certainly free to make or play a game where those are options, but there's no reason to get upset with other people for not making that choice. It might just be that such a thing doesn't fit their desired theme for their game.
Why are you getting defensive? They were only questions I wasn't beating on my keyboard as I typed them. I am simply trying to spur thought in people whom think this is how it is done period no reason to discuss it anymore.
Your idea simply goes against common sense, logic, and reality. If you have a tank which can heal and dps, then everyone playing will do this. Specialization is supposed to breed proficiency, both in games and real life, and being able to master everything will lead to much worse games than those that are currently out. The current system may not be the best, but it's better than all the alternatives.
Finally, can't people just stop complaining if they don't have better suggestions themselves?
Why do you even need to force a role down a persons throat at all? Why can't a plate wearing cleric tank or a mage with shield/protection spells? Why can't a mage shield damage from a tank instead of a healer healing the damage taken?
You're certainly free to make or play a game where those are options, but there's no reason to get upset with other people for not making that choice. It might just be that such a thing doesn't fit their desired theme for their game.
Why are you getting defensive? They were only questions I wasn't beating on my keyboard as I typed them. I am simply trying to spur thought in people whom think this is how it is done period no reason to discuss it anymore.
Your idea simply goes against common sense, logic, and reality. If you have a tank which can heal and dps, then everyone playing will do this. Specialization is supposed to breed proficiency, both in games and real life, and being able to master everything will lead to much worse games than those that are currently out. The current system may not be the best, but it's better than all the alternatives.
Finally, can't people just stop complaining if they don't have better suggestions themselves?
You're telling me the holy trinity is common sense, logical and reality? Really?!? OK. Maybe in the mythical world of classical rpg but no where else. Where exactly did I say a tank should heal? Or is this how you argue. Infer the most idiotic example like it is my own. Specializing to the point that you are an idiot to everything else around you is a good way to end up fodder in games and real life. And again infering that I feel a single person should master everything, far from it. You know you just contradicted yourself right? How can something not be the best but be better then all the alternatives?
So you read my suggestion, tried to lead my suggests to the most idiotic extremes and then tell people to stop complaining without better suggestions? You my friend are a little confused.
I'd like to see a more realistic combat mechanics. How often in real life combat or fantasy novels do you see the holy trinity? I guess rare if ever.
Why are you getting defensive? They were only questions I wasn't beating on my keyboard as I typed them. I am simply trying to spur thought in people whom think this is how it is done period no reason to discuss it anymore.
Ahem, while I may seem defensive to you, to me, you're the one who seems indignant and ultimately defensive about your indignation.
You may be trying to spur thinking, but if you want to make me think, I suggest a diffferet tact instead of your current approach. Like say...coming up with some ideas about your preferred way of doing things rather than simply leaping into diatribes against the "holy trinity" as you called it.
I'd like to see a more realistic combat mechanics. How often in real life combat or fantasy novels do you see the holy trinity? I guess rare if ever.
I could make an argument that the basic concept of the "holy trinity" applies to many real-life combat divisions where roles are segmented, such as airplanes, fleets, rifle squads even nuclear warfare. Did you know that the US had a triad nuclear strategy? Bombers, submarines and missles. But that might not be the example you want, since they're really doing the same thing, the difference is in how they can be deployed. Airplanes are obviously purposed to a variety of roles, be they fighters, bombers, or support aircraft, as are ships. Even a rifle squad has particular roles for each member of the team, such as a leader, an automatic weapons specialist, and a medic, along with a couple of other possible roles.
Really, it's not completely unrealistic to consider that people do have particular roles to fill.
As for fantasy novels...here's the thing, the author has complete and utter control over the story there. They don't have to entertain more than one person at a time. A novel could entirely revolve around one person. This is not such a good option for your average group game. Of course I can find plenty of books where people have particular abilities, but you might object if I gave some examples because they're post-RPG adaptations, and could be construed as narrative filling an existing idea space. Still...Gandalf was looking for a burglar.
I would love to have more then the typical DPS, healer and tank class. However, i have never heard a solid or viable addition to this. They are always hybrids.
I.E. A rogue/burglar hides in the shadows, back stabs etc etc
A Mage/wizzard casts spells and use elementals and crap
However at the end of the day, they both are DPS.
Crowd control does not work as a viable primary role for a class becuase damage output would have to be very low so that they cant compete with the pure DPS classes.
However, if I had to come up with a class myself, I dont think I could think of anything truly new but Ill give it a shot.
New class : ????
Abilities include being a buffer and a damage mitigater. Furthermore, CC skills can be put into place.
Buffing: These will be more powerful then each individuals class's buffs and overall must be strongly preferred.
Damage Mitigatation: Through the use of buffs and quick short duration buffs, this class can cast spells on others that will allow them to absorb X amount of damage OR increase their Dodge/block/ etc rating by x% for y amount of time.
Crowd Control: Mezzing, dazing, charming, or basically anything that can control a mob from doing something that would otherwise hurt (i.e kill the healer)
Brb having tank classes, heal classes, dps classes, and caster classes
Brb played each of those classes in another game
Brb not having any freedom in the way I want to build a character.
Every fucking game is the same now, and all it does is give a bad influence for future mmo's (As seen by the horrible lineup of games coming out in near future)
Even if you gave people unrestricted choices from amoung hundreds of skills and abilities, people would still min / max it down to < 10 builds that are considered acceptable.
All the class system does is apply structure to roles that people would develope independantly in a classless system. That is, unless the game you were playing allowed you to build a tank / mage. If that were the case, you are stuck with the scenario of everyone being the same, by dint of everyone having the same capabilities.
There are classless games out there, Darkfall is one.
There are also games that allow mixing of roles / classes into unique combinations of abilties, DDO is one.
Even in those games, the players themselves are going to define an individuals roles.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Comments
I am a very demanding player,but i can tell you i enjoy the vanilla type class design.
I think part of your hate for the system stems from you wanting to design your own player.Well in FFXI it had i beleive 20 classes and as far as i am concerned EVERY single idea has been used/thought of,so what woudl be left that you could possibly design,that is not already in the game?
No matter what type of player you want to design,it still takes thought correct?You either want to be able to DPS or take damage or fight melee or from afar,no game is going to allow you do EVERYTHING great.So your choice is to have a nicely designed class [by the developer] or make your own half ass average run of the mill not good at anything class.IMO it seems rather a simple choice.
Basically i would like to hear what EXACTLY it is about his system that bothers you aside from already been done several times?#d graphics have been done several times ,do we go back to 2D graphics now?Swords/Axes/staves/Daggers already done a million times,do we not use these anymore either?Just because something has been done before ,it does not mean it isn't a great idea.Heck i would love to see ALL games use the FFXI sub class system,i would never get tired of it.
Anyhow FFXIV is attempting to make the best use of what the OP wants,you can switch your weapon and become a totally new class and yo uget to choose many areas to put your stats into .(I guarantee there will be some flaws exploited bytthis design,possibly the developer will be forced to make tons of tweaks to make it doable.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
criiiiies
All these years hoping some niche game would come out in the original SWG style, ah well.
Seeing as RPG's are games based around combat the "cookie cutter" classes are the only way to go. As most of the current crop of games are based on medieval melee and ranged combat techniques, with magic added, there isn't much liberty to alter the basic construct. Much of the classes are even similar to modern military, with heavily armored forces and infantry breaching the enemy's defences (tank), artillery and air force for destruction (dps), medical, logistics, and surveillance for support (healers, buffers), and various type of special forces such as commando units, snipers, precision missiles for surgical strikes (rouge).
If you take this away from games they are no longer RPG's, and thus not MMORPG's (they can however be MMO's). What people seem to be wanting are closer to simulators or economic games. Agree or disagree on whether this is a good idea, it is not really within the scope of MMORPG's to deliver.
How babout i want to play mage with 2 handed sword with rouge nimbles? I cant in games like uo i could. You fail at "wouldnt be rpg part"
The games I've played allow for some hybrids between the classes, but not the ability to be two classes. This makes sense since this induces grouping and variation between players of different classes. Also, choosing a hybrid is usually not too popular because most games work on the "jack of all trades, master of none" principle and people don't like being gimped.
they'll stop the day they stop getting billions of dollars from the cookie cutter formula. Things are popular for a reason, usually because it's better than the rest of the crap out there.
"World of Warcraft is the perfect implementation of this genre." - Hilmar Petursson. CEO of CCP.
A game is easier to balance when you have cookie cutter classes. It's not so much a matter of fun as it is developers taking the easy road.
My idea of fun is no classes at all, but rather incorporating skills as you go along. Some people do like classes and labels though.
I think the bottom line of this discussion is that many of the larger companies are just milking the population of ridiculous item mall abusers. I'll admit I have been drawn a few times and everytime I feel like a idiot cause I blew $50 on a game I played for 2-3 months.
This is basic breakdown of a games life:
CB: Addicted gamers with no life fill up the open slots
OB: Addicted gamers come back get to lvl 50 in a day and ruin the game for everyone else
Full release: Normally a few months after OB after maybe one or two patchs leaving, a not that finished, finished product. Item mall released, addicted morons blow thousands of dollars to get a pointless advantage and ruin the game.
Full release (month 1): As these games are mostly "North American" you can guess you got a bunch dumb shits, that live outside North America, already at max level, flooding the chat with their Effing language and destorying any economy the game might have had by abusing their knowledge and farming all profitable items to extinction. (Honestly no offence because without you making these games North Americans would be stuck with shit, but seriously stick to your own version.)
Full release (month 2): The game has reached server overloading levels and the company is promoting their million player game. In reality you have 700,000 botting/scam spammers accounts and 75% of original players gone because of laggy conditions or pricks that monopolize everything enjoyable in the game.
Full release (month 3): A patch is released and veterins return. The economy is broken, most botters have given up because all actual players have quit and they are to easy to pick out. A small handful of players come each day, but not as many as there are people quitting. Once everyone realizes the patch is shit maybe a week after its release they all quit again.
THE END
Yep thats it. Time for developer XYZ to pick a new project so they can lure fools to max out their credit cards again.
Can you show us a system of your own creation (don't cheat and use someone else's system) which hundreds of skills which you can demostrate is balanced by using math to prove it. If the devs are just being lazy, I would like to see your proof of concept.
Why are people blaming the class structure when it's the gameplay that is beginning to bore them?
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4th
Why defend the developers?
Honestly stop! Take a extra year and make a half decent game. Of course every game you see on here is already made. They have no ability to make changes because of legal contracts. I still would like to see these asian game developers make something new and decent. No matter how much we boycott stuff here it won't change much because our games are just poorly translated versions of another game.
Thank your developer-oriented mind, GT.
That was what I was getting at before - in that the current system of "get HP to 0 to kill creature", where all different abilities are just different ways of getting that HP to 0.
In some cases, abilities are movement-based (in WoW - sprint/shadow step (rogue), disengage (hunter), blink (mage), death grip? (death knight)) etc. - but they are just different means to the same end.
What if you could "take down" a player? Or have a K.O. system? Isn't it a bit strange that we just run about killing things and people all day long? "How was your day honey?" "Oh, just went and killed a whole cave (and culture) of Kobolds. You know, the ones that primarily mine and like their candles. Yeah. Those guys."
Perhaps you could have several different ways of "defeating a player/creature" - respect, compassion, submission
For some creatures - say Orcs - respect/submission are much easier - submission moreso than respect. In that case, being a player with a good deal of strong damaging abilties will be the "easiest" way to beat the Orc. Note that I am talking a savage type of Orc that knows no fear - that sort of crap.
Respect could be gained through parries, dodging... man...
Anyway, without creating everything in theory right here and now (as I'm heading out now) - you can see where I'm going with this?
Perhaps there should be other ways of defeating enemies - or even just other goals than just "defeat everything! Oh look, it's C'thun! Let's defeat him! Woo, his HP is 0! Now Illidan's out and about - woo, his HP is 0! And I got loot to increase me HP damaging abilities! And now Arthas is out! Etc. etc. rinse wash repeat."
If a player wants to be some sort of business-man, you should allow them to - if the case is there are skills to learn, that take as much time/exp/whatever to get as a combatitive player's life might take, then you should allow other methods of offensive/defensive capabilities for that player - allow henchmen, who run on money, who, in numbers, can best even other players (you know, 4 on 1, as to not make them Overpowered)
If someone wants to explore, make them able to climb mountains - make it some sort of exclusive thing - a secondary-type skill that must have a quest chain or something that gives them the "mountain climbing" ability, or the ability to use some sort of mountain hiking boots, that allows you to climb difficult slopes - or a grappling hook, that pulls the player to it.
Ok, I'ma really stop again. Have fun arguing amongst yourselfs for the next while
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
This farce that is so often perpetrated by some of my fellow SWG vet's is just a tired statement to make. While my friends who specialized in crafting, being a medic or entertainercould fight they were not as adept at combat as those who specialized in combat classes so why is it people always try to make it like the mechanics worked any different in SWG? Sure you could drop your class and take a combat class but if I remember right you lost all experience and essentially started over at first level again, which is no different than erasing your cookie cutter fighter and giving him the same appearance/name with a different class.
From my memory in some ways SWG was actually even more restrictive than some of the newer cookie cutter mmo's. I recall quite a few occasions where without the ability to heal myself I was lost and spent half the night/session getting my butt handed to me and since have played lot's of those same "cookie cutter" classes and have found some innovative ideas used to help alleviate the need for others which was certainly not the way SWG was.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I'd like to be able to create my own character but even if they were to loosen the forced roles it would be a step in the right direction.
For example look at WoW paladins or druid. Why did they force you to spec and gear into a certain role? Why couldn't you be just good at everything while other classes are better.
Why do you even need to force a role down a persons throat at all? Why can't a plate wearing cleric tank or a mage with shield/protection spells? Why can't a mage shield damage from a tank instead of a healer healing the damage taken? Why are there even glass cannon in existance? The idea that all I do is dps I can't take any hits is stupid.
I can't believe that we are all to stupid to realize what you would need to bring or prepare to fill certain roles. And if we open more roles to more classes without having to spec and respec over and over again or run to the bank to swap gear grouping would be quicker and easier.
You're certainly free to make or play a game where those are options, but there's no reason to get upset with other people for not making that choice. It might just be that such a thing doesn't fit their desired theme for their game.
Agreed. When I read you post I was reminded of Dungeon Siege (the first one.) That was a class-based/classless hybrid system that I feel worked out very well. You could be anything you want, just pick a skill and use it. Then it was back to usage-based skill progression. Items still had an important part to play, but it was a sideline to the fact that skills only improve when you use them. IMO, a perfect MMO would combine this more loosely class-based system with something similar to WoW or LoTRO.
Cheers,
insanex
Why are you getting defensive? They were only questions I wasn't beating on my keyboard as I typed them. I am simply trying to spur thought in people whom think this is how it is done period no reason to discuss it anymore.
Your idea simply goes against common sense, logic, and reality. If you have a tank which can heal and dps, then everyone playing will do this. Specialization is supposed to breed proficiency, both in games and real life, and being able to master everything will lead to much worse games than those that are currently out. The current system may not be the best, but it's better than all the alternatives.
Finally, can't people just stop complaining if they don't have better suggestions themselves?
You're telling me the holy trinity is common sense, logical and reality? Really?!? OK. Maybe in the mythical world of classical rpg but no where else. Where exactly did I say a tank should heal? Or is this how you argue. Infer the most idiotic example like it is my own. Specializing to the point that you are an idiot to everything else around you is a good way to end up fodder in games and real life. And again infering that I feel a single person should master everything, far from it. You know you just contradicted yourself right? How can something not be the best but be better then all the alternatives?
So you read my suggestion, tried to lead my suggests to the most idiotic extremes and then tell people to stop complaining without better suggestions? You my friend are a little confused.
I'd like to see a more realistic combat mechanics. How often in real life combat or fantasy novels do you see the holy trinity? I guess rare if ever.
Ahem, while I may seem defensive to you, to me, you're the one who seems indignant and ultimately defensive about your indignation.
You may be trying to spur thinking, but if you want to make me think, I suggest a diffferet tact instead of your current approach. Like say...coming up with some ideas about your preferred way of doing things rather than simply leaping into diatribes against the "holy trinity" as you called it.
I could make an argument that the basic concept of the "holy trinity" applies to many real-life combat divisions where roles are segmented, such as airplanes, fleets, rifle squads even nuclear warfare. Did you know that the US had a triad nuclear strategy? Bombers, submarines and missles. But that might not be the example you want, since they're really doing the same thing, the difference is in how they can be deployed. Airplanes are obviously purposed to a variety of roles, be they fighters, bombers, or support aircraft, as are ships. Even a rifle squad has particular roles for each member of the team, such as a leader, an automatic weapons specialist, and a medic, along with a couple of other possible roles.
Really, it's not completely unrealistic to consider that people do have particular roles to fill.
As for fantasy novels...here's the thing, the author has complete and utter control over the story there. They don't have to entertain more than one person at a time. A novel could entirely revolve around one person. This is not such a good option for your average group game. Of course I can find plenty of books where people have particular abilities, but you might object if I gave some examples because they're post-RPG adaptations, and could be construed as narrative filling an existing idea space. Still...Gandalf was looking for a burglar.
I would love to have more then the typical DPS, healer and tank class. However, i have never heard a solid or viable addition to this. They are always hybrids.
I.E. A rogue/burglar hides in the shadows, back stabs etc etc
A Mage/wizzard casts spells and use elementals and crap
However at the end of the day, they both are DPS.
Crowd control does not work as a viable primary role for a class becuase damage output would have to be very low so that they cant compete with the pure DPS classes.
However, if I had to come up with a class myself, I dont think I could think of anything truly new but Ill give it a shot.
New class : ????
Abilities include being a buffer and a damage mitigater. Furthermore, CC skills can be put into place.
Buffing: These will be more powerful then each individuals class's buffs and overall must be strongly preferred.
Damage Mitigatation: Through the use of buffs and quick short duration buffs, this class can cast spells on others that will allow them to absorb X amount of damage OR increase their Dodge/block/ etc rating by x% for y amount of time.
Crowd Control: Mezzing, dazing, charming, or basically anything that can control a mob from doing something that would otherwise hurt (i.e kill the healer)
This kinda sounds like a Bard from EQ rofl
Even if you gave people unrestricted choices from amoung hundreds of skills and abilities, people would still min / max it down to < 10 builds that are considered acceptable.
All the class system does is apply structure to roles that people would develope independantly in a classless system. That is, unless the game you were playing allowed you to build a tank / mage. If that were the case, you are stuck with the scenario of everyone being the same, by dint of everyone having the same capabilities.
There are classless games out there, Darkfall is one.
There are also games that allow mixing of roles / classes into unique combinations of abilties, DDO is one.
Even in those games, the players themselves are going to define an individuals roles.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin