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Final Fantasy XIV - Escaping the Shadow of XI
ThomasN7
87.18.7.148Member CommonPosts: 6,690
Does it con 'decent challenge' or 'incredibly tough'?
It seems like almost forever ago that Final Fantasy XI graced us with its presence. To some it was an unsightly beast, and while it has evolved quite rapidly over the last few years, many have seen that evolution as a case of too little, too late and likely won't be giving Square Enix another try when the next MMO coming from the RPG powerhouse, Final Fantasy XIV, launches.
Fortunately, Square Enix has proven that it can listen to the subscribers, so let's take a look at the flaws of the previous game and what needs to be addressed to intrigue those of us who are too jaded to give it an honest try.
Square Enix isn't about to miss out on the Drizzt Do'urden fan club this time around.
1. Final Fantasy XIV must be more accessible than XI to new players.
If there's one thing a lot of players hate it's the in-game tutorials that every MMOG forces you to endure with your initial character. Or perhaps the game turns on all sorts of newbie tips and tricks to help guide you through the interface or teach you the basics of combat.
On the other end of the spectrum, Final Fantasy XI throws you in the middle of a town with nothing but a map. Once you bumble outside of town, you have to slaughter rabbits in your starting rags with zero weapon skills, and these bunnies will give you a run for your money for a while! Soloing doesn't get easier for most classes, and it wasn't until recently that a patch made soloing a viable option for more than a few specific jobs and level ranges. On top of that, a new player has no access to travel. Chocobos aren't an option, the Airship travel isn't even accessible until well into the game, and as a result you're stuck moving with your own two legs everywhere you want to go for the first one hundred or so in-game hours. That's not an exaggeration...which brings me to the next major fault that needs to change
FFXIV's Response - Unknown at this time, but it's almost a given that the game will be much more simple to pick up and play at first than the previous MMORPG.
2. The new game must move much faster in towns as well as in combat. Time is valuable!
Everything in this game feels slow and deliberate, from the half second it takes to unsheath a weapon, to the seemingly forever cast times of ancient magic, to the constant cut-scenes of boarding an Airship or renting a Chocobo from the stable... this game just takes time. Too much of it, apparently. Lots of people are put off by the slow feel of combat and movement and, now that World of Warcraft has captured the hearts, minds, and perhaps souls of so many, a slow game just can't compete anymore. While some may like the epic feel of combat and the lack of having to press 60 buttons a minute to achieve maximum damage, others will pass out from boredom. As we all know, bored players are not subscribing players for long.
FFXIV'S Response - Fortunately, the trailers and info we've seen have placed FFXIV at about 88 miles per hour compared to it's predecessor. The new Action Gauge and Effect Gauge will give people a better idea of how long each attack takes and give better understanding and interaction to the flow of combat. Teleport nodes are being added both in the field and in towns to reduce the pain of necessary traveling.
3. The game must achieve a solid balance within a reasonable amount of time.
One of the legendary gripes of both long term and short term players is the lack of balance between the classes. While a game does take time to develop a true balance between each of the unique classes, Final Fantasy XI has had far longer than most games and still lacks a feel of balance in the end-game or even before that. Some classes have been classified as utterly useless by the community at various stages of the game, and for good reason. Imagine if you had to invite another DPS class to your party, and there is a class that can do 1500 damage over the course of a battle and one that can do 800 damage--which would you invite? Melee classes in this game rarely bring anything to the table besides damage, so if one falls short in damage, the amount of party invites that class gets falls dramatically no matter how good the player is. You can be a master of the Dragoon, or the best Puppetmaster on the server, but at one point in this game's lifespan if you were that job, you were basically laughed at and ignored.
FFXIV's Response - It remains to be seen how fine a balance Square Enix can strike right out of the gate. No game is perfect in this regard immediately, but a prompt response to glaring problems and imbalances is what the players expect and require at this point.
4. You are worthless alone in FFXI, and that cannot be the case again.
For about the first 7 years of Final Fantasy XI, you did one of two things: killed monsters and adventured together with a party, or sat looking for one. Having friends and getting in a group is the only way to do anything in this game until recently. Thankfully Square Enix has realized that people like to accomplish things on their own and is keeping this in mind with progression and quest design. We can rest assured that we no longer have nothing to do besides browse the Auction House and feed our Chocobos while waiting for a group to form!
FFXIV's Response - Final Fantasy XI recently corrected this grave error in game design so Final Fantasy XIV should be okay in this respect from the start. Partying and soloing will both be viable routes of advancement, so rejoice!
5. Maintain the same epic feel to the quest lines and the sense of accomplishment that goes along with completing them.
Those who actually played long enough to reach the stories of Wings of the Goddess, Chains of Promathia, or Rise of the Zilart were treated to a fairly good storyline featuring characters they might actually care about for once in an MMOG. These aren't just characters created for the sake of being bosses at the end of an instance, they're highly fleshed out and have real cut-scenes that include more than just a few lines of dialogue. Reaching these points and receiving the titles and rewards associated with them is one of the things Final Fantasy XI did extremely well. In a way, it can be seen as an early Achievement system, and we all know how people love those. Even if you're not an achievement seeker, the tangible rewards of money and important objects such as the Airship Pass will have you interested in continuing the story and not just rushing to the level cap.
FFXIV's Response - They've kept their lips sealed about anything major plot-wise. Cut-scenes will be returning to the game and, so long as they can be skipped for those that do not care for the story, will make everyone happy one way or another.
I too had my time of Final Fantasy XI love, and the game fell from grace with me just as it did with many of you who probably experienced one of the above problems or others. Square Enix knows what they've done well, but that they’ve also done wrong, judging from recent FFXI patches that have alleviated (at least partially) many of these woes. I've polled players who have multiple maxed jobs in the game as well as players who threw the game away after the initial month to get a wide range of opinions on the matter, so if something is missing from this list, make sure and voice what made you throw in the towel. It remains to be seen if they can win over the hearts of the MMO gaming populace that felt Final Fantasy XI just wasn't up to snuff. With an early beta in progress, however, we'll see if Square Enix has learned from their mistakes and can deliver a winner from the get-go!
Source: http://www.tentonhammer.com/finalfantasyxiv/editorials/shadowofxi
Comments
I agree with all of that (especially the bit on job balance) except for your second point.
The slow and steady pace of FFXI's combat was what allowed the game to be more focussed on tactical and coordinated play as opposed to just spamming a fixed sequence of skills as they come off cooldown. Since FFXIV looks to be retaining the same tactical and group coordination concepts (skillchains, range, positioning, multi-target encounters) I think it's safe to assume it'll be maintaining the slower pace. I read somewhere that the ATB gauge takes about 4 seconds to fill up... so that's effectively a 4s GCD, compared to most other MMOs having 1-1.5s. Personally I'm glad SE are sticking with this route.
Point 1 is valid enough. I don't remember getting very much direction from NPCs or cutscenes at the beginning of FFXI. The beginning mobs weren't that easy either (though that depended on your starting job), but it also helped set the stage for the levels ahead. You learned very quickly that you're not invincible and that you cannot take any enemies lightly.
But Point 2 is absurd. World of Warcraft is fast, therefore a slow-paced game can't compete. Some players like slow combat, but others are bored by it enough to quit, so it can't be slow. Um, wha? It makes sense to cater to your demographic. A huge amount of FFXIV subscriptions are going to come from fans (former and current) of FFXI, and the people who liked it the most either prefer or at least tolerate slow strategic combat. The "it's not like WoW so it sucks" argument doesn't fly these days; people are dying for games that don't emulate WoW.
Point 3 makes sense if you believe that there are only 3 possible roles in an MMO: tank, healer, and dps. And a party is going to consist of mostly dps, because a.) most of the server's population is dps and so are more than half the classes, and b.) you only need 1 tank and probably 1 healer. If you take that as a given, then balance is incredibly important because a dps class is measured only by how much dps it can put out, and no one will invite the classes that lag behind. But if you've been paying any attention to the FFXIV info, you'd know that a.) classes can be changed between fights, making a character's worth to the party more than just their main class, and b.) the party-vs-party combat, the importance of positioning and distance, and the need to conserve mp between aetheryte nodes all require much more of each combatant than simple pewpewing. Gone are the days of looking at your dps meter to determine your worth as a human being. When a character can't be boiled down to a single number, it makes balance—or the illusion of balance, which is arguably more important—not that hard at all.
Point 4: Again, while this game won't be that similar to FFXI, it's going to appeal to the same people. Far from being a fatal flaw, the heavy emphasis on grouping over solo play is what many fans like about the game and what differentiates it from the other MMOs that came before and after it.
No argument with Point 5, other than maybe the fact that they're using the same races (sort of) which could lead to a feeling of "I've already seen and done all this already". In order to retain an epic feel, they'll have to make sure that the NPCs, towns, and areas don't feel like they're a mirror of an FFXI location.
Disdena pretty much covered my thoughts on all of your points. I would just add/reitereate that the more tactical approach to combat and the fact that it did take time to accomplish things in FFXI are two elements of the game that gave the player that sense of accomplishment, or "epic feel," as I believe you called it. I really think that, in mmorpgs, it's the journey and the effort made throughout that journey that really impresses upon a player. Laying the journey out the right way is a big part what immerses the player and allows the story to be presented well. I can't see how making things faster and easier will help. Granted,down times waiting for parties was a pain, but I think SE already has some good solutions to help avoid that in FFXIV.
Those who are waiting for FFXIV do not want a hack & slash combat, that's obvious. But seriously, FFXI was way too slow. Having that kind of slow combat in offline ff games was understandable because you had to control 3 characters but when you have to control only one then it starts to look like an un unnecessary time sink. For me what destroyed the combat in FFXI was the console's controller. They made it slow so a console player could have the time to open the menu and selecting the skill from the list. That takes too much time in comparison to the action keys in a keyboard. Se made the mouse almost unnecessary because of that reason too. They tried to create a time balance betwen console and pc players. That did hurt the pc players in the end. I'm not saying to make it like wow but they should find a reasonable fight speed and stop punishing the keyboard and mouse for the sake of controllers.
That only applies to lower levels too.
At the level cap, the game was just fast enough that you could still actually cooperate with others while doing your own thing.
It starts so slow and ends up fast. SE should only need to not make the difference between low and high level so huge that it's like two different games altogether. Balance things out a bit.
It wasn't fast, it just gave the illusion of being fast because you had to scroll in the menu faster because now there are more actions. Still a pointless task when you could just had hotkeys.
I still think that controllers are responsabile for that. Imagine you're in a party with a bit faster combat. The ones who would be not efficient are those with the controllers. They have to open menus and find the actions which will slow them down. From that point on you will avoid partying with the console players. What SE did is making the keyboard & mouse as slow as the controller to eleminate the time gap betwen these players. So this game is created with the controller in mind and then punishing the pc till the point when the two would not make a difference betwen each others. That's why I hated FFXI even though I am a great SE fan.
There is no way that I am going to play a game that forces grouping and asks me to grind.
I don't care if WoW is considered nooby... I have way more interesting things to do than playing a grind.
I dont mind effort, or difficulty, but time waste is something else, and FFXI was notorious.
I doubt the developers will listen. the japanese coore base probably loves the hardcore grind that has always been part of FF.
Its too bad because it looks good. Reminds me of Aion. Looked really cool too, but "loool" I am not going to play a game with such a heavy emphasis on grind. thats for the birds. If I only have 30 minutes three times a week to play games, I am not going to pick the one where I will grind rats, snakes and other boring crap.
then I will take WoW, because for despite its flaw, after 30 minutes you already feel leet, got nice gear, are in a guild and all that stuff. its just faster paced, instantly rewarding.
Same with Conan, Warhammer and all that. they all say that there wont be a grind, but it always ends up as a massive grind. I am not optimistic about this game at all. The stories I have heard about FFXI, are horrible.
Oh, So we already know FFXIV is a grind? I must have missed the memo.
Rofl. This is exactly what's wrong with todays MMo gamers. Aion is nothing like FFXI. You haven't even played it and you're judging it. AoC and Warhammer are the exact same thing as WoW, even easier with less "grind".
The only flaws FFXI have are difficulty in finding groups and unbalanced classes, otherwise the game is the closest thing to a perfect MMo. The only things FFXIV should change are the two things above I mentioned. FFXIV shouldn't be accessible, especially to WoW players, there's enough games like that. Better FFXIV have a great community with 500k subs and people who actually stay subbed for months-years than a horrible community like WoW with 11.5 mil subs, most of which are new players coming and going staying subbed for 1-3 months.
You look at "grind" as a chore. I enjoyed leveling, farming and going through the story line to reach max level, which felt like an accomplishment. Like you stated, you play 30 minutes in WoW and you have leet gear, clan etc etc... Nevertheless, I'm super exicted about this game. FF XI was pretty much my crack for a couple years. When this game finally is released, I fear for my waist line and my golf game.
It is obvious that you are a fan of Final Fantasy and as you stated in your own post about Pingo having no clue about the game you refered too. In my oppinion this goes for you too, regarding World of Warcraft that is. I've played them both and they certainly got their up's and down's but if you think FFXI is the closest thing to a perfect MMO then you seriously need to open your eyes up and identify the plenty of flaws that actually exist in that game. Imo, don't go mess around with others when you are wearing the fanboy cap and makes as less sense yourself like the one you complained about.
Lol, someone disagreed with you so you throw the fanboy argument? How immature.
I agree with LotosSlayer. The sentence underlined in Pingo's post really is representative of the reason this genre is falling apart. The likes of Pingo just want instant gratification, they don't want to actually have to do anything to be rewarded. This makes the rewards feel worthless since you didn't have to even try in order to obtain them. There's no sense of achievement or accomplishment in games like WoW (and yes, I have played it, all the way to endgame).
Different strokes for different folks I guess, because that sounds awful. I had fun leveling in FFXI because it was a challanging, rewarding experience. I dispised leveling in WoW because it was boring and the whole point of the lower levels is to get to max level fast, which made it feel like a grind. I spent way less time getting to max level in WoW than I did taking a job to 45 in FFXI, and yet it felt much more like a grind.
Truly it's not a grind unless you make it out to be one. If all you care about is reaching max level and having the shiniest shinies, than the game is bound to feel more like a grind. If you enjoy the moments as you play them however, it won't.
All games have grinds, some just mask them better, and some make you grind for a different reason than others and we are able to enjoy them more.
Bottom line, if it feels like a chore, why play?
No it's attitudes like yours that are ruining the genre.
Attitudes that suggest you think that YOUR games and YOUR playstyle(s) are better and some how more correct then others.
That elitism does NOTHING positive for the MMO community nor the genre as a whole.
I do find it funny that with posts like yours I could EASILY replace a few key words here and there and create a post that sounds exactly like the posts from someone like Pingo who is merely stating their own opinion.
Let's try shall we?
"I agree with Pingo. The sentence underlined in LotosSlayer's post really is representative of the reason this genre is falling apart. The likes of LotosSlayer just want pointless time sinks, they don't want other player to have the same rewards as they think they "deserve." This makes the rewards feel more epic since you have to work hard grinding for days to obtain them. There's no sense of fun or acessability in games like FFXI (and yes, I have played it, all the way to level 10.)"
I am boggled by the lack of forsight here.
1)I just love, love, love how people use the most stupid examples of why WoW is falling, or why the MMORPG genre is falling apart. Shut up. Nothing is falling apart. Stop being dramatic. WoW is the best game, it is the most popular one for so many reasons. There is no need to go into detail, because you can check all the bloody rewards and great reviews the game got.
2)No I haven't played FFXI. I never said I had. I wanted to. I think I would have liked it. But a challenge? Something that takes time is a challenge?
You got something wrong. That's the time waste. Ikuraga is a challenge. Ninja Gaiden is a challenge. Grinding is not a challenge.
If you really think that people suffering through boring repetitive content to be rewarded with some loot/xp/lvl/whatever is fun, then I don't hope you will ever be a game designer, because that's a horrible stigmatised way of thinking about it.
It's about the journey. It's always supposed to be fun. And it's not fun to grind. It's not fun for the same thing to take that long.
Blizzard gets it. That's why they win, and that's why everybody I freaking know is going to stay away from this beautiful game that is full of potential, and alternatives. No freaking way.
And of course Aion, Warhammer and Conan are the same. Horrible quest design. Bad gameplay flow. Restrains all over. Length and time investment is meaningless to me. I would rather play a bloody good MMO for 2 hours and then go out and play in the sun, than playing some chore game.
I am looking in my crystal ball, because this thread is about escaping from XI's conventions and the stereotypes. A part of me actually hoped that someone would come up with a sensible argument. That a person would have a slight chance of explaining to me that XIV would not be that god forsaken grind that XI was, and that a person with limited time and patience who wants to be ENTERTAINED, ALL THE TIME, as they are PAYING FOR A SERVICE and PAYING TO BE ENTERTAINED.
But no. Your raddling on about how everyone is wrong about WoW. The game has the best level flow. It has the best paced progression. Less is more. It wins with simplicity. So many people are getting enjoyment out of it. My 60+ mother plays it, my 6 year old nephew plays it.
It boggles me how people can want to think that this was a challenge. Think about how bad Super Mario, Half-Life 2 or whatever would suck if you stretched that experience to 2000 hours. your doing the same thing when grinding.
WoW doesn't solve these issues, but it limits them. And thats the key. So until someone has a stronger "less is more" than Blizzard, then Blizzard is going to win.
And to what end, when this game looks and sounds awesome? everything about it seems great. the combat looks like it will take skill, teamwork, learning, and that is has depth. Thats a challenge. Thats a real challenge.
me wasting my time on something that could be stretched down to 1/100 without ruining the flow of seeing the world and still having a sizeable game and feeling like I am growing, is not. I refuse to believe that.
Also, I didn't compare Aion to FFXI. I just recalled that people said that Aion didn't have a grind back in early Beta. And thats what they did doing Warhammer and Conan as well. But the PvE experiences in these games are overall horrible.
They are not worthy of me, or you. They are not good games. They are asking you to waste your time, to give them more months of monthly fee, so they can make more over-stretched content. The end game is the carrot on a stick.
... And yes, WoW is no different. But its so much more accesable. Its so much more approachable, and less time consuming. especially lately. it takes me 20 seconds to a minute to get into a dungeon. You just cant beat that, when you have 80 minutes in an entire week to play.
I am not a WoW fanboy. I dont even play it currently(maybe when cata comes out), but its sadness to see how developers fail to get it. they just fail, fail fail fail fail. all the time. doing the exact same mistake again.
make something that is worthy of our time. and thats not killing the same monsters again and again.
Attitudes like mine? Name me a major game that has actually listened to any gamer interested in a challenge in the last half decade. Then name all the games that are catering entirely to the likes of players who want instant gratification. The genre can't be falling apart because of attitudes like mine becase no devs are even listening to us, it's all entirely about the instant gratification demographic.
It's the fact that all the big games now are catering to only one demographic of the MMO community that the genre is falling apart. It's not possible for a game to cater to both, and they all inevitably give in to the whining of players who don't like the game (why are they even playing it then?) to make things easier or make thing take less time, so the games all inevitably go downhill for anyone who enjoys being challenged.
Sense of accomplishment = time and effort invested. Simple as that. Easier it is, the less rewarding it is, there's no other way about that. That's not an opinion since there are no cases that I know of where something that is 'easy' can feel rewarding. That is what made FFXI fun.
Players with less time to invest into a challenge need easier and shorter challenges, yes, but why can't they have their own games tailored to them rather than have almost every game in the genre compromise itself to accomodate them? There is another thread on here from a few weeks back that explains quite well how once a game compromises in the interests of more 'casual' gamers it is, from the on, only as challenging as the casual gamers will allow, those who like the challenge are put out in the rain.
ping Wow is a sorry excuse for an mmo. But its easyly played and its good at what it offers.
That really depends.
Every MMO has grind, it's just whether or not you find the game's particular grind fun to repeat. WoW is a boring end game gear grind but the level up process was entertaining. FFXI the leveling process was often quite slow and the gear was even harder to come by but even more rewarding.
I'm personally looking for a balance between the two and hopefully not so much focus on gear (gear is only a PART of an RPG) and more focus on developing a character's stats/abilities.
So far, even though little concrete information is available, I have high hopes simply due to the developer's attitudes toward making the game from their interviews.
You mean like WOW?, where you are classing it as a different monster because of a name change and its now coloured blue not green?
Some people realy need to open there eyes and look for themselves.
Oh, do you work for Blizzard?
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Apparently, the memo came through all venues of communication. I too, however, have missed this memo. GOOD THING WE HAVE PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM TO LET US KNOW EXACTLY WHAT GAMES ARE GOING TO BE LIKE BEFORE WE OR EVEN THEY EXPERIENCE THEM!
I mean, what on earth would we do without these defenders of the MMO faith.
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"Your pride, good sir, far exceeds your worth." -x3r0h
Oldest mmorpg.com member with the least amount of post counts. That counts for something, right?
This is a great post. +1 pingo.
I feel you truly get this genre. I feel you understand why WoW is such a success (even if you don't like it or play it, its very hard to argue against their success) and why no MMO since has been able to capture the same appeal that WoW did.
If there is one thing I do know is that Square Enix is not one to stick to convention and be afraid to try something new and innovative and different.
Based on track record alone, I'd say the only hope for the next truely amazing MMO is either Blizzard's unannounced MMO project, Bioware's ToR, or Final Fantasy XIV.
I know you didn't read my post probably, or you wouldn't have posted that.
TL;DR - WoW is the lesser evil of all of this.
We are all here because we see great potential in this genre, and everyone, everywhere seems to recognize that there is something fundamentally wrong with all MMORPGs compared to how they could be. but dreaming and real life are two different thing.
But as I said.. WoW is the lesser evil. It gets away with it easier. its easier to forgive because its more forgiving, and thats why it wins.
TOR is my guess as well mate. At least looking at it now, Bioware has been on such a great track record for the last year or so, and if they can deliver a good story experience with choice all over... So much potential.
I am not afraid to say that I think WoW has many great things, and that I can see why it's the marked leader in every way. Nobody wants XIV to be like WoW. Not even WoW fanboys. They will play WoW anyway, right?
But what I do think is true is that Blizzard brings a philosophy to the table; Easy to learn, hard to master. Yes, WoW is easy. It's easy the same way, that other MMORPGs are easy. WoW is just so much faster.
The fact that you can be completely decked out in a new armor, on your way to a new town without 10 minutes and already on your way to your first gold coin. I mean, that level of polish is not something I have seen since, in every area of gameplay. Being able to take in so many playstyles.
If the gameplay itself is really great even if the game is not that long, people will play it again. Hell.. Thats the reason why I keep coming back to a game like Max Payne. its a short, focused and fun experience. I would rather replay that, than some 25 hour experience with a 2 hour torturial or boring build up sequences.
Entertain me, now! It's like when we watch Youtube. If it's not interesting after 10 seconds we change video and watch something else.
There are so many cool games we can play all the time, paying monthly for a game is a commitment that sort of makes you(or me at least) take that game sort of serious and forward of other games to get your money and investment worth. it should be at least as fun as whatever non-monthly fee game you could be playing and instantly getting gratification.
Imagine if you took a hammer and beat your own hammer over and over again. you know that when you stop it will feel really good. the sensation of not hurting will be a reward. you go through the torment of beating yourself, to get the reward. your grinding away on your hand, as a challenge to get the xp.. the feeling of a hand not hurting.
your argument is that if you didnt beat your hand, having a hand that doesnt hurt wont feel as satisfying.
extreme example? Yes it is. But it is the same thing. I find grinding painful. I find it absolutely terrible. Even in Single Player Final Fantasy, I am the type who tries to get out of the random battles. I get to a boss, gets owned hard, and have to backtrack and stand in a spot for 6 hours(in FF10) and grind away.
I like to find all types of enemies a few times, but then I get bored, and don't want to do that anymore.
in your favorite action movies it wouldnt be fun if the main hero fought the same type of bad guys the same way for 10 hours, just so the ending would feel more worthwhile.
It's my firm believe that the journey towards the end(reward) has to be as fun as the reward. Carrot on a stick is one thing.