Like I've said before elsewhere, I think Blizzard gets a bit of a free pass here from its customers because in a very real way it's the only game in town. The other AAA MMOs in the last few years have largely failed. Once some real competition apppears (hopefully in the form of Guild Wars 2, The Old Republic, Final Fantasy XIV, and a couple others), then RMT in the big games will have larger implications on whether people keep playing them or not (helps that GW2 provides a sub-free alternative as well).
Anyhow, overall I thought Mr. Webb had some very good points. Maybe Blizzard won't ever sell a class online, but they'll keep adding stuff to the store. Sooner or later they'll add items that can be used but aren't necessarily "better" than what you can get in the game, I think. Well, that would happen if no competition appeared I think. Given how the market is going to change in the next couple years (assuming all new MMOs aren't made of fail), I think Blizzard will start acting more sensibly.
You are assuming that the new 'competition' won't have cash shops, as well. Given the success that WoW's is having, that is less likely than say - six months ago.
The other issue - as you pointed out - is customer inertia. Players are less likely to leave a game they have put a lot of time and money into, than to just refuse to start a new one with a cash shop.
Granted, but some games will have fewer cash shops than others. That will tend to encourage people to go to those games over time. Even though in many ways it seems like the Steed might have been a success for Blizzard, you have to remember that even if everyone in the queue bought a pony, then that's not even 5% of the population. Most of the players AREN'T using the cash shop and so aren't beholden to it and are open to the possibility of being turned off by it.
Also, let's say the sub models are all the same. Then you have cash shops. If one company has adventures sold in the shop, then those items are going to look a LOT more attractive to potential customers. Worst case scenario I think we'll at least see cash shops over much more reasonable bang for the buck. Lastly, GW2 will come out as an MMO with no sub fee. TOR, FFXIV, and WoW will have to compete with that.
Overall I think once the market gets more healthy by having actual competition, then the competition will tend to regulate the offerings in and out of potential cash shops so that things are far more reasonable.
I am curious Doubter, if a game had a Sub fee and a cash shop, but the shop only sold adventures (which might lead to items and such, but you'd have to play the game for it), would you consider that bad? What if it had two sub fees, and the higher fee gave you that stuff for free? I think competition in the market would push shops toward a model more like that.
Granted, but some games will have fewer cash shops than others.
?
That will tend to encourage people to go to those games over time. Even though in many ways it seems like the Steed might have been a success for Blizzard, you have to remember that even if everyone in the queue bought a pony, then that's not even 5% of the population. Most of the players AREN'T using the cash shop and so aren't beholden to it and are open to the possibility of being turned off by it.
Also, let's say the sub models are all the same. Then you have cash shops. If one company has adventures sold in the shop, then those items are going to look a LOT more attractive to potential customers.
The items wil be more atractive, but the game will be less attractive.
Worst case scenario I think we'll at least see cash shops over much more reasonable bang for the buck.
I don't care about bang for the buck. My objection to the steed has nothing to do with the cost. Frankly, from a value perspective, if I was starting to play WoW, never having to buy a mount for any of my characters would be well worth $25.
I care about all players having the same chance to play the game. The entire game.
Lastly, GW2 will come out as an MMO with no sub fee. TOR, FFXIV, and WoW will have to compete with that.
Overall I think once the market gets more healthy by having actual competition,
Let's hope that happens. WoW has been out for 5 1/2 years. No real competition has been forthcoming. They all have had one or more serious flaws which kill any chance at competition with WoW.
then the competition will tend to regulate the offerings in and out of potential cash shops so that things are far more reasonable.
I am curious Doubter, if a game had a Sub fee and a cash shop, but the shop only sold adventures (which might lead to items and such, but you'd have to play the game for it), would you consider that bad? What if it had two sub fees, and the higher fee gave you that stuff for free? I think competition in the market would push shops toward a model more like that.
Since I am completely against tiered memberships in mutliplayer games, I would not support a game that sold content individually. One fee, the same for all players. There is more than enough inequality in the real world, without having it jammed down our throats in a game we are paying to play.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I wish I could make this "Jabba-laughter" at this moment. Well, imagine it. ... The human mind always baffles me.
How the same thing is cute and cool in WOW and would make a nerdrage in LOTRO, how with a simple trick anyone can see people are made belief. How a in itself irrelevant thing like who spents his money on what even makes a news. I mean, last time I checked on what I spent my money is my private thing alone, no? A MMO developing company is no charity organisation! They are there to make profit, the more the better. Its what sports stars make as well, and the poor masses cheer for the millionaires. Such is the reality of men, thus it has always been since civilization began. But why humans are always so surprised by these age old mechanisms... must have something to do with human lifespans being to short to see the patterns.
As to the matter at hand: gold selling was widespread, way more than most would realize, so we all knew RMT would come to MMOs in the future. Now the future is here. As long as it is cosmetic stuff like mounts or so I dont care. Acutally I would prefer pay some cash instead of months of painful and dull ingame money grind and then focus my time on the more pleasurable parts of the game. I never shared this ideology of making cool mounts some endgame reward, because I never was interested in playing my maxxed out chars anymore. People need mounts early not when its almost game over. We can get what we can afford, thats capitalism. *shrug* The alternative crashed 1989. I know, because I was there.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I'm always surprised at what people are willing to pay for, but this 25.00 mount topped most of them.
I mean, if it did impart some sort of in game benefit I might have understood the rush for it, but as simply a cosmentic change that anyone with 25 bucks can buy I can't imagine why people would purchase such a thing.
I'm just too far out of the mainstream it seems to grasp it all.
But I agree, this was just another step to turning WOW (and many other games) to a hybrid payment model where we'll pay a monthly fee for 'basic' service and extra fees for additional functionality. (much like cable TV I suppose)
Ever go to a concert and then afterwards buy a t-shirt with the band's log on it? Ever buy a Star Wars figurine or a lightsaber? Ever buy a replica sword to hand on your wall? Ever gone on vacation and bring back souvenir hats, mugs or 'folklore art'?
It really is the same thing. You spend a decent chunk of cash on an item with little practical value because it 'looks good', 'looks cool' or 'holds fond memories'. It is all extra fluff that really has little impact on the 'big event' experience it is tied to but it makes us 'feel better' and we have something to show off to people who really do not care about those things at all.
I'm always surprised at what people are willing to pay for, but this 25.00 mount topped most of them.
I mean, if it did impart some sort of in game benefit I might have understood the rush for it, but as simply a cosmentic change that anyone with 25 bucks can buy I can't imagine why people would purchase such a thing.
I'm just too far out of the mainstream it seems to grasp it all.
But I agree, this was just another step to turning WOW (and many other games) to a hybrid payment model where we'll pay a monthly fee for 'basic' service and extra fees for additional functionality. (much like cable TV I suppose)
Ever go to a concert and then afterwards buy a t-shirt with the band's log on it? Ever buy a Star Wars figurine or a lightsaber? Ever buy a replica sword to hand on your wall? Ever gone on vacation and bring back souvenir hats, mugs or 'folklore art'?
It really is the same thing. You spend a decent chunk of cash on an item with little practical value because it 'looks good', 'looks cool' or 'holds fond memories'. It is all extra fluff that really has little impact on the 'big event' experience it is tied to but it makes us 'feel better' and we have something to show off to people who really do not care about those things at all.
Except all your examples are real, physical, tangible items. Items that can be held, like a photograph, that spur memories or feelings.
One doesn't watch a star wars movie, paying an extra 25 bucks to infuse it with more lightsabers. You're trying to blend two mediums- the visual and the physical...
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
I'm always surprised at what people are willing to pay for, but this 25.00 mount topped most of them.
I mean, if it did impart some sort of in game benefit
It does.
I might have understood the rush for it, but as simply a cosmentic change
Not true.
that anyone with 25 bucks can buy I can't imagine why people would purchase such a thing.
Because it does give an advantage.
It is a savings of 161 gold if you are at least level 70 and have already spent 5000 gold on an epic flying training. Otherwise it is a saving of 61 gold at level 60 after you have spent 250 gold on normal flying training. If you want to use the mount in Northrend you need to spend another 1000 gold. It is a saving of 1gold at level 20 for a normal ground mount and a saving of 10g at level 40 for epic ground mount.
If you have multiple alts this does not change as you have to still get flight training on every character before the mount upgrades. The saving on every character are proportionally very small compared to the amount you have to spent to get the savings and the savings are releatively small amounts (chump change) at the levels at which they become available.
I'm always surprised at what people are willing to pay for, but this 25.00 mount topped most of them.
I mean, if it did impart some sort of in game benefit I might have understood the rush for it, but as simply a cosmentic change that anyone with 25 bucks can buy I can't imagine why people would purchase such a thing.
I'm just too far out of the mainstream it seems to grasp it all.
But I agree, this was just another step to turning WOW (and many other games) to a hybrid payment model where we'll pay a monthly fee for 'basic' service and extra fees for additional functionality. (much like cable TV I suppose)
Ever go to a concert and then afterwards buy a t-shirt with the band's log on it? Ever buy a Star Wars figurine or a lightsaber? Ever buy a replica sword to hand on your wall? Ever gone on vacation and bring back souvenir hats, mugs or 'folklore art'?
It really is the same thing. You spend a decent chunk of cash on an item with little practical value because it 'looks good', 'looks cool' or 'holds fond memories'. It is all extra fluff that really has little impact on the 'big event' experience it is tied to but it makes us 'feel better' and we have something to show off to people who really do not care about those things at all.
That is two very separate and different things though.
Buying said items after a concert or movie are to capture a moment, like taking vacation photos. It is a keep sake that you can keep with you your whole life and maybe pass down to others. Its an item that, while maybe not valuable to others, might hold significant value to you as every time you look at it or hold it you are taken back to that moment.
Buying an ingame item is more akin to paying extra at the concert for the band to add more lasers/lights to the display. It might enhance the moment for some people, but ends up being a complete waste as when the concert is over so is the moment.
Basically you are compairing and item that captures the moment to an item that exists only in that moment. Two very different things.
In 1993 I bought a CD at a small punk concert in Mass. Even got the band to autograph it because I thought they were really good. It was a great show and an even better day because there were a bunch of us that had sort of an adventure that day. That CD is still in my collection and just looking at it makes me think of that day and all the fun we had.
I remember buying an Epic Mount in WoW a long time ago. Don't remember the details of that day for anything.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Hehe people canning their accounts cuz of the pount. lol hard to belive.
I didn't 'can' my account because of the mount, the mount is fine... it's the fact that the game is turning into an item shop, but very slowly so that it isn't noticeable. It's the principle of the matter.
I won't waste my time on a game no matter how good I think it is if I can't get rewards by playing it. In two years from now it could be a full blown item shop, if that's the case I'm glad I cancelled now and saved that subscription money.
This... Makes no sense.
Ok. So you are cancelling based on principle. What principle is that? You don't like the idea of sub + item shop? You don't like item shops? You feel cheated?
And what rewards is this item granting beyond what you get by playing it? They say on the website it scales with level, so you will save yourself the cost of the basic land mount, epic land mount and basic flying mount and epic flying mount. AFAIK the 310% flying mount has requirements to it that require more to obtain. So it essentially is a RMT trade for Blizzard for a very few items.
So lets move on. Two years they have a full blown item shop. How does cancelling your account now save you subscription money based on an item shop? Did you not enjoy playing the game? If not, then you've been wasting money already.
You see, I am opposed to item shops for two reasons. 1, the majority (not all) require active participation in the item shop to remain competative or functional. 2, I am too damn poor to pay for crap. If I have the money for a sub to a game, then I pay for the game. But item shops are more difficult to manage with the limited budget to be within price and retain quality of gameplay.
Other than that, I dont care what they put up for whatever price. As long as I can remain as competative in an cash shop as I am in a sub based game for the same price, I dont care.
In another sense... to say that Blizzard should be doing more to protect players from their own carelessness is so typical of the "no accountability" people demonstrate these days. Someone makes a poor choice, and then blames it on someone else for not "protecting them" from it.
So, I guess you have no theft or fraudulent charge protection on your credit/debit cards?
Of course I do. And should I somehow have my personal information compromised, the respective credit card company would take the necessary measures to correct the situation.
Similarly... If someone's account is hacked, Blizzard also will take necessary measures to correct the situation - should it be a legitimate case of an account being compromised.
In either case, the account in question could be compromised due to the careless use of said information by its owner, or it could be a case of legitimate theft. In neither case is it the credit card company's responsibility, or Blizzard's responsibilty, if you go entering your information, for example, into an unsecured website, or give your information to someone who then goes and runs up your account.
Regardless, that's not really a good comparison, MMO_Doubter. We're talking about an item that helps prevent an account from being compromised in the first place; probably even better than a credit card company's "theft protection" does, as it stops a would-be thief from accessing the account in the first place, unless they're really good at picking random codes in 30 second intervals. I've known of plenty of cases where people have their credit card info compromised and used despite having that "theft protection" on it. "Theft Protection" on a credit card is not fool proof.
Again... you seem to be making an argument here for it somehow being Blizzard's problem that their customers are careless with their own info and so it's their responsibility to "protect" them. No... It's each individual's responsibility to protect their personal information as well as they can.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
In another sense... to say that Blizzard should be doing more to protect players from their own carelessness is so typical of the "no accountability" people demonstrate these days. Someone makes a poor choice, and then blames it on someone else for not "protecting them" from it.
So, I guess you have no theft or fraudulent charge protection on your credit/debit cards?
Of course I do. And should I somehow have my personal information compromised, the respective credit card company would take the necessary measures to correct the situation.
Similarly... If someone's account is hacked, Blizzard also will take necessary measures to correct the situation - should it be a legitimate case of an account being compromised.
Not really a good comparison, MMO_Doubter as what you're talking about relates to what the company does *after* your information has been compromised (credit card info, etc). We're talking about an item that helps prevent an account from being compromised in the first place.
Some people just want that extra protection. If you played WoW for 2+ years and invested a lot of blood, sweat, nerdrage, and tears into your characters, wouldn't you want them to be absolutely secure? You'd take all precautions and be extremely careful with your information, but the nagging possibility that something could happen would eat away at you until you saw Blizzard selling Authenticators. Suddenly, you'd realize that $6.50 (or whatever the price is) is worth it, and you'd pay up.
It's smart. I'm sure there are some people who are truly careless, and they expect Blizzard to keep their account secure for them. Honestly, though, it's not that hard to protect your information, and if you can't do it with an MMO, I don't know how you'll do it with things that really matter (like the example you gave).
In another sense... to say that Blizzard should be doing more to protect players from their own carelessness is so typical of the "no accountability" people demonstrate these days. Someone makes a poor choice, and then blames it on someone else for not "protecting them" from it.
So, I guess you have no theft or fraudulent charge protection on your credit/debit cards?
Of course I do. And should I somehow have my personal information compromised, the respective credit card company would take the necessary measures to correct the situation.
Similarly... If someone's account is hacked, Blizzard also will take necessary measures to correct the situation - should it be a legitimate case of an account being compromised.
Not really a good comparison, MMO_Doubter as what you're talking about relates to what the company does *after* your information has been compromised (credit card info, etc). We're talking about an item that helps prevent an account from being compromised in the first place.
Some people just want that extra protection. If you played WoW for 2+ years and invested a lot of blood, sweat, nerdrage, and tears into your characters, wouldn't you want them to be absolutely secure? You'd take all precautions and be extremely careful with your information, but the nagging possibility that something could happen would eat away at you until you saw Blizzard selling Authenticators. Suddenly, you'd realize that $6.50 (or whatever the price is) is worth it, and you'd pay up.
It's smart. I'm sure there are some people who are truly careless, and they expect Blizzard to keep their account secure for them. Honestly, though, it's not that hard to protect your information, and if you can't do it with an MMO, I don't know how you'll do it with things that really matter (like the example you gave).
I agree... I boutht a security token for WoW myself when I was playing... and I *do* take extra precautions with my information. I've never (knock on wood) had an account hacked, or information stolen. Regardless, the token is well worth it and provides peace of mind that there's that *one* extra layer of protection that a would-be thief couldn't likely get past even if they did get everything else.
I simply don't agree that Blizzard should be "giving them out for free" because a portion of their customers are careless with their own account info. Would it be nice? Sure. Is it a "bad thing" if they don't? I don't think so. Hell... if they charged $25 for a security token - like they do for their new mount - it would be worth it. I think they got the pricing backwards on that, personally.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
"If any other game had done this, they would have been crucified."
Like:
- SOE selling backpacks for $20 or furniture bundles for $50 in EQ2?
- Wizard101 selling houses and mounts for $10+ bucks?
I'm sure gamers can bring up plenty of other examples.
No crucifixion, no media attention, the games are running along just fine. The gaming press wasn't dazzled by the pony, they just didn't think it was anything to be up in arms about. How many times have gamers paid extra for "Collectors Edition" of MMO launches or expansions to get those in-game items? Paid 15-20 more? You've essentially done the same thing that the buyers of WOW did, you paid extra for in-game items/RMT/Microtransaction or whatever you want to call it. MMO'ers have been doing it for years, its olds news. The fact that they are not waiting for expansion launches to sell these items is realitively new, but tis been going on for several years now as well.
This is not a big deal. If you feel its wrong, don't support it with your sub. If enough folks did it, they might change it back....who knows.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
"If any other game had done this, they would have been crucified."
Like:
- SOE selling backpacks for $20 or furniture bundles for $50 in EQ2?
- Wizard101 selling houses and mounts for $10+ bucks?
I'm sure gamers can bring up plenty of other examples.
No crucifixion, no media attention, the games are running along just fine.
Actually SOE had their fair share of headaches from "media " ,first link for comments from mmorpg members .You can find many more media comment against SOE about stationcash if you search google for " soe stationcash" . It is all about double standards actually ,everyone else insulted/smacked/ for this microtransaction thing but when it is/was blizz everyone closed eyes .
I personally divide now games into those where you:
don't have access to all the content unless you keep paying for stuff (Allods Online, World of Warcraft)
The last kind is annoying, because you have to constantly decide: "do I want to pay more? Or have less game"
I agree wholeheartedly. Up until recently I had no problems with paying for a game's expansion or two. But this is going on the 3rd, which will most likely be full price ($50+) again. If I decide to keep going (which I probably will, let's be honest with ourselves here), the "full" game will have cost me $200+ by itself, not to mention how much I've paid in subscription fees. I honestly feel sorry for people just starting out. SC2 is gonna be worse.
Once again, I'd like to thank the money grubbing pricks at Activision for their influence on WoW's "recent" changes post BC. Not that BC was the greatest, but up until they joined up, the game was still about the quality and fun gameplay. Now it's just about the money and how long you can make players run the same content 70+ times a week.
I knew their merger was gonna be a bad idea and as time goes on, I'm seeing exactly what I thought would be coming. I miss the days when dungeons actually felt adventurous (Deadmines, Shadowfang Keep, Scholomance!!!!). Now it's just a race to see how fast you can get through them.
Don't get me wrong. I enjoy playing WoW. I think it's an excellent game. I just don't like the direction it's been going since WotLK and I sincerely hope that Cata will put the adventure feeling back into it.
One thing for sure, if they completely sell out and start selling dungeon access (a la DDO) via the store, I'm done for good. I refuse to pay a subscription AND pay for individual dungeon access.
NEWS FLASH! PAYING THE SUB IN F2P = NO DIFFERENCE THAN P2P GAMES!
I just blame the airlines for this "nickle and dime" crap. Ellen elaborates on this pay 2 play situation for us by describing how it works now with airlines, which...also wasn't always the case.
I am curious Doubter, if a game had a Sub fee and a cash shop, but the shop only sold adventures (which might lead to items and such, but you'd have to play the game for it), would you consider that bad? What if it had two sub fees, and the higher fee gave you that stuff for free? I think competition in the market would push shops toward a model more like that.
Since I am completely against tiered memberships in mutliplayer games, I would not support a game that sold content individually. One fee, the same for all players. There is more than enough inequality in the real world, without having it jammed down our throats in a game we are paying to play.
Good point. But I think there can be a point where there isn't a lot of distinction between a "Cash Shop" and an "Expansion" or perhaps "mini-expansion." Obviously the shop would be offering fairly significant amounts of content per shop item for this to happen. I think it is obvious you'd be ok if they had expansions only available as an online download (which could be redownloaded as much as you wanted). So an expansion might cost what....40 bucks? What if they broke up the expansion into say...8 parts for 5 bucks each and you bought them over the course of two years. Would that necessarily be problematic?
Hmm, you'd probably have some of those purchasable content better than others which might cause problems that a "pay once and get everything" model would avoid.
Hmm. I think overall I'd prefer a cleaner model of just having a higher subscription cost if the game needs more revenue. Of course, revenue to survive isn't why big games do cash shops that are like WoW's or most (all?) others. That said, I'm not convinced that a Cash Shop necessarily needs to be a "Cash Grab". There's certainly a gray area between downloadable expansions and an buyable ponies.
I understand that everyone is entitled to an opinion but its just sad when people gloss over just how bad their opinion makes them look to someone on the outside looking in. To the guy above crying about the charity pet, $1,110,000 of that money went to the Make a Wish foundation. That's 1.1 million dollars going to help brighten the lives of people who need an uplifting experience the most. If you added up every cent that you and every member of your whole family ever donated in their combined lives and threw in every penny every one of those people's friends donated in their entire lives to charity it would be closer to zero than 1.1 million. How much did you donate to Make A Wish last year bro?(and by bro I mean a myriad of words that will get me banned from this site)...
I concede that it would have been better for them to give more of a percentage of the proceeds away but when the total is more money than some people make in a lifetime, complaints against them sound like anger just looking for an outlet.
I find it very suspicious when a company ventures into RMT and uses "it's for charity" to cover the fact that they are jumping into an arena that most of us hate. I think it is downright low and decietful to try to cover up your new business venture with a charity ploy and not give 100% of the proceeds to said charity. Is it not odd to anyone else that their fisrt footsteps into this arena were cleverly masked with a charity donation. 1.1mil is a drop in the bucket to Blizz specially considering most software companies do a 2 year development cost recoup, that gives Blizz 4 years of revenue - operating costs. Not to mention character recustomization, server transfers, faction change, name change etc. Its not about how much they contributed to charity its about how they went about it and how they used it Blizz giving charity 1.1mil is like me giving charity $11.
"If any other game had done this, they would have been crucified."
Like:
- SOE selling backpacks for $20 or furniture bundles for $50 in EQ2?
- Wizard101 selling houses and mounts for $10+ bucks?
I'm sure gamers can bring up plenty of other examples.
No crucifixion, no media attention, the games are running along just fine.
Actually SOE had their fair share of headaches from "media " ,first link for comments from mmorpg members .You can find many more media comment against SOE about stationcash if you search google for " soe stationcash" . It is all about double standards actually ,everyone else insulted/smacked/ for this microtransaction thing but when it is/was blizz everyone closed eyes .
I was referring more to the current items and their prices. That said though you are correct that SOE took quite a few lumps initially, but there they are still moving forward. 10 million registered players on their game and still selling subs/expansions on their older games.
I wouldn't say everyone closed their eyes on Blizzard though. They have been doing pet sales and the TCG mounts for awhile, this wasn't really that earth shattering of an event.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Firstly I would like to say how good an article this is . It very much gets to the crux of the matter .
I've often wondered how far Blizzard can push RMT before Warcraft players stand up and say this is a step too far .
From what I've seen and read in these forums the answer is that Blizzard could introduce a cash shop selling non-vanity items and vast numbers of players would still argue that its a great thing for the game .
I don't think its likly we will see the sale of armor and weapons before the Cataclysm xpac but I think theres a strong possibility that it will happen within the year following its release .
How it will be justified is that the items will offered will be most likly the welfare epics for those people that don't want to waste hours earning them through battleground play etc . A short cut as it were .
In the meantime I think we will see such things as paid class transfers ( ie change your hunter to a rogue etc ) . This is something I suggested would happen in these forums a couple of years ago .At the time I remember many Warcraft fans saying it would never happen because it would be a step too far ( along incidently with faction changing , allowing players to have horde and alliance characters on the same servers and premium pets and mounts all have which become a reality ).
I guess all bets are now off and I'd imagine Blizzard have every intention of seeing how far they can go .
Seeing the way things are going I'm glad I gave up last year and if I get the urge to get Cataclysm and go back . I'm going to pinch myself and remember the push towards RMT which makes Warcraft a big No Go for me in future .
Comments
Granted, but some games will have fewer cash shops than others. That will tend to encourage people to go to those games over time. Even though in many ways it seems like the Steed might have been a success for Blizzard, you have to remember that even if everyone in the queue bought a pony, then that's not even 5% of the population. Most of the players AREN'T using the cash shop and so aren't beholden to it and are open to the possibility of being turned off by it.
Also, let's say the sub models are all the same. Then you have cash shops. If one company has adventures sold in the shop, then those items are going to look a LOT more attractive to potential customers. Worst case scenario I think we'll at least see cash shops over much more reasonable bang for the buck. Lastly, GW2 will come out as an MMO with no sub fee. TOR, FFXIV, and WoW will have to compete with that.
Overall I think once the market gets more healthy by having actual competition, then the competition will tend to regulate the offerings in and out of potential cash shops so that things are far more reasonable.
I am curious Doubter, if a game had a Sub fee and a cash shop, but the shop only sold adventures (which might lead to items and such, but you'd have to play the game for it), would you consider that bad? What if it had two sub fees, and the higher fee gave you that stuff for free? I think competition in the market would push shops toward a model more like that.
Since I am completely against tiered memberships in mutliplayer games, I would not support a game that sold content individually. One fee, the same for all players. There is more than enough inequality in the real world, without having it jammed down our throats in a game we are paying to play.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I just want to say- Great Article... Normally the MMO.COM articles are....lacking at best and at worst are almost "advertisments".
You have told the truth about this disturbing trend... It will continue unless we stand up NOW.
I wish I could make this "Jabba-laughter" at this moment. Well, imagine it. ... The human mind always baffles me.
How the same thing is cute and cool in WOW and would make a nerdrage in LOTRO, how with a simple trick anyone can see people are made belief. How a in itself irrelevant thing like who spents his money on what even makes a news. I mean, last time I checked on what I spent my money is my private thing alone, no? A MMO developing company is no charity organisation! They are there to make profit, the more the better. Its what sports stars make as well, and the poor masses cheer for the millionaires. Such is the reality of men, thus it has always been since civilization began. But why humans are always so surprised by these age old mechanisms... must have something to do with human lifespans being to short to see the patterns.
As to the matter at hand: gold selling was widespread, way more than most would realize, so we all knew RMT would come to MMOs in the future. Now the future is here. As long as it is cosmetic stuff like mounts or so I dont care. Acutally I would prefer pay some cash instead of months of painful and dull ingame money grind and then focus my time on the more pleasurable parts of the game. I never shared this ideology of making cool mounts some endgame reward, because I never was interested in playing my maxxed out chars anymore. People need mounts early not when its almost game over. We can get what we can afford, thats capitalism. *shrug* The alternative crashed 1989. I know, because I was there.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Ever go to a concert and then afterwards buy a t-shirt with the band's log on it? Ever buy a Star Wars figurine or a lightsaber? Ever buy a replica sword to hand on your wall? Ever gone on vacation and bring back souvenir hats, mugs or 'folklore art'?
It really is the same thing. You spend a decent chunk of cash on an item with little practical value because it 'looks good', 'looks cool' or 'holds fond memories'. It is all extra fluff that really has little impact on the 'big event' experience it is tied to but it makes us 'feel better' and we have something to show off to people who really do not care about those things at all.
Except all your examples are real, physical, tangible items. Items that can be held, like a photograph, that spur memories or feelings.
One doesn't watch a star wars movie, paying an extra 25 bucks to infuse it with more lightsabers. You're trying to blend two mediums- the visual and the physical...
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
It is a savings of 161 gold if you are at least level 70 and have already spent 5000 gold on an epic flying training. Otherwise it is a saving of 61 gold at level 60 after you have spent 250 gold on normal flying training. If you want to use the mount in Northrend you need to spend another 1000 gold. It is a saving of 1gold at level 20 for a normal ground mount and a saving of 10g at level 40 for epic ground mount.
If you have multiple alts this does not change as you have to still get flight training on every character before the mount upgrades. The saving on every character are proportionally very small compared to the amount you have to spent to get the savings and the savings are releatively small amounts (chump change) at the levels at which they become available.
That is two very separate and different things though.
Buying said items after a concert or movie are to capture a moment, like taking vacation photos. It is a keep sake that you can keep with you your whole life and maybe pass down to others. Its an item that, while maybe not valuable to others, might hold significant value to you as every time you look at it or hold it you are taken back to that moment.
Buying an ingame item is more akin to paying extra at the concert for the band to add more lasers/lights to the display. It might enhance the moment for some people, but ends up being a complete waste as when the concert is over so is the moment.
Basically you are compairing and item that captures the moment to an item that exists only in that moment. Two very different things.
In 1993 I bought a CD at a small punk concert in Mass. Even got the band to autograph it because I thought they were really good. It was a great show and an even better day because there were a bunch of us that had sort of an adventure that day. That CD is still in my collection and just looking at it makes me think of that day and all the fun we had.
I remember buying an Epic Mount in WoW a long time ago. Don't remember the details of that day for anything.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
"For example, if Turbine announced tomorrow that you could buy a special pony mount in LoTRO for $25, there would be nerdrage visible from space."
LMAO! Best line ever!!
This... Makes no sense.
Ok. So you are cancelling based on principle. What principle is that? You don't like the idea of sub + item shop? You don't like item shops? You feel cheated?
And what rewards is this item granting beyond what you get by playing it? They say on the website it scales with level, so you will save yourself the cost of the basic land mount, epic land mount and basic flying mount and epic flying mount. AFAIK the 310% flying mount has requirements to it that require more to obtain. So it essentially is a RMT trade for Blizzard for a very few items.
So lets move on. Two years they have a full blown item shop. How does cancelling your account now save you subscription money based on an item shop? Did you not enjoy playing the game? If not, then you've been wasting money already.
You see, I am opposed to item shops for two reasons. 1, the majority (not all) require active participation in the item shop to remain competative or functional. 2, I am too damn poor to pay for crap. If I have the money for a sub to a game, then I pay for the game. But item shops are more difficult to manage with the limited budget to be within price and retain quality of gameplay.
Other than that, I dont care what they put up for whatever price. As long as I can remain as competative in an cash shop as I am in a sub based game for the same price, I dont care.
Of course I do. And should I somehow have my personal information compromised, the respective credit card company would take the necessary measures to correct the situation.
Similarly... If someone's account is hacked, Blizzard also will take necessary measures to correct the situation - should it be a legitimate case of an account being compromised.
In either case, the account in question could be compromised due to the careless use of said information by its owner, or it could be a case of legitimate theft. In neither case is it the credit card company's responsibility, or Blizzard's responsibilty, if you go entering your information, for example, into an unsecured website, or give your information to someone who then goes and runs up your account.
Regardless, that's not really a good comparison, MMO_Doubter. We're talking about an item that helps prevent an account from being compromised in the first place; probably even better than a credit card company's "theft protection" does, as it stops a would-be thief from accessing the account in the first place, unless they're really good at picking random codes in 30 second intervals. I've known of plenty of cases where people have their credit card info compromised and used despite having that "theft protection" on it. "Theft Protection" on a credit card is not fool proof.
Again... you seem to be making an argument here for it somehow being Blizzard's problem that their customers are careless with their own info and so it's their responsibility to "protect" them. No... It's each individual's responsibility to protect their personal information as well as they can.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Some people just want that extra protection. If you played WoW for 2+ years and invested a lot of blood, sweat, nerdrage, and tears into your characters, wouldn't you want them to be absolutely secure? You'd take all precautions and be extremely careful with your information, but the nagging possibility that something could happen would eat away at you until you saw Blizzard selling Authenticators. Suddenly, you'd realize that $6.50 (or whatever the price is) is worth it, and you'd pay up.
It's smart. I'm sure there are some people who are truly careless, and they expect Blizzard to keep their account secure for them. Honestly, though, it's not that hard to protect your information, and if you can't do it with an MMO, I don't know how you'll do it with things that really matter (like the example you gave).
I agree... I boutht a security token for WoW myself when I was playing... and I *do* take extra precautions with my information. I've never (knock on wood) had an account hacked, or information stolen. Regardless, the token is well worth it and provides peace of mind that there's that *one* extra layer of protection that a would-be thief couldn't likely get past even if they did get everything else.
I simply don't agree that Blizzard should be "giving them out for free" because a portion of their customers are careless with their own account info. Would it be nice? Sure. Is it a "bad thing" if they don't? I don't think so. Hell... if they charged $25 for a security token - like they do for their new mount - it would be worth it. I think they got the pricing backwards on that, personally.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
"If any other game had done this, they would have been crucified."
Like:
- SOE selling backpacks for $20 or furniture bundles for $50 in EQ2?
- Wizard101 selling houses and mounts for $10+ bucks?
I'm sure gamers can bring up plenty of other examples.
No crucifixion, no media attention, the games are running along just fine. The gaming press wasn't dazzled by the pony, they just didn't think it was anything to be up in arms about. How many times have gamers paid extra for "Collectors Edition" of MMO launches or expansions to get those in-game items? Paid 15-20 more? You've essentially done the same thing that the buyers of WOW did, you paid extra for in-game items/RMT/Microtransaction or whatever you want to call it. MMO'ers have been doing it for years, its olds news. The fact that they are not waiting for expansion launches to sell these items is realitively new, but tis been going on for several years now as well.
This is not a big deal. If you feel its wrong, don't support it with your sub. If enough folks did it, they might change it back....who knows.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Actually SOE had their fair share of headaches from "media " ,first link for comments from mmorpg members .You can find many more media comment against SOE about stationcash if you search google for " soe stationcash" . It is all about double standards actually ,everyone else insulted/smacked/ for this microtransaction thing but when it is/was blizz everyone closed eyes .
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/214935
http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=16377
http://www.examiner.com/x-544-Games-Examiner~y2008m12d10-With-SOEs-Station-Cash-are-MMO-microtransactions-becoming-the-new-standard
This is EXACTLY the thoughts I had when I heard about the mount. You have become my new favorite columnist for this. There is nothing I disagree with.
NEWS FLASH! PAYING THE SUB IN F2P = NO DIFFERENCE THAN P2P GAMES!
Why the hell can't the whiners comprehend this?
I personally divide now games into those where you:
pay once and can play as long and as often all the content you want (Team Fortress 2)
pay once and then a monthly subscription fee and can access all the content you want (Fallen Earth)
don't have access to all the content unless you keep paying for stuff (Allods Online, World of Warcraft)
The last kind is annoying, because you have to constantly decide: "do I want to pay more? Or have less game"
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
I agree wholeheartedly. Up until recently I had no problems with paying for a game's expansion or two. But this is going on the 3rd, which will most likely be full price ($50+) again. If I decide to keep going (which I probably will, let's be honest with ourselves here), the "full" game will have cost me $200+ by itself, not to mention how much I've paid in subscription fees. I honestly feel sorry for people just starting out. SC2 is gonna be worse.
Once again, I'd like to thank the money grubbing pricks at Activision for their influence on WoW's "recent" changes post BC. Not that BC was the greatest, but up until they joined up, the game was still about the quality and fun gameplay. Now it's just about the money and how long you can make players run the same content 70+ times a week.
I knew their merger was gonna be a bad idea and as time goes on, I'm seeing exactly what I thought would be coming. I miss the days when dungeons actually felt adventurous (Deadmines, Shadowfang Keep, Scholomance!!!!). Now it's just a race to see how fast you can get through them.
Don't get me wrong. I enjoy playing WoW. I think it's an excellent game. I just don't like the direction it's been going since WotLK and I sincerely hope that Cata will put the adventure feeling back into it.
One thing for sure, if they completely sell out and start selling dungeon access (a la DDO) via the store, I'm done for good. I refuse to pay a subscription AND pay for individual dungeon access.
NEWS FLASH! PAYING THE SUB IN F2P = NO DIFFERENCE THAN P2P GAMES!
Why the hell can't the whiners comprehend this?
You know....
I just blame the airlines for this "nickle and dime" crap. Ellen elaborates on this pay 2 play situation for us by describing how it works now with airlines, which...also wasn't always the case.
Ellen on the Airlines' Version of RMT
Hope that link works for ya...if not...it's Ellen's Monologue 04/28/10
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Good point. But I think there can be a point where there isn't a lot of distinction between a "Cash Shop" and an "Expansion" or perhaps "mini-expansion." Obviously the shop would be offering fairly significant amounts of content per shop item for this to happen. I think it is obvious you'd be ok if they had expansions only available as an online download (which could be redownloaded as much as you wanted). So an expansion might cost what....40 bucks? What if they broke up the expansion into say...8 parts for 5 bucks each and you bought them over the course of two years. Would that necessarily be problematic?
Hmm, you'd probably have some of those purchasable content better than others which might cause problems that a "pay once and get everything" model would avoid.
Hmm. I think overall I'd prefer a cleaner model of just having a higher subscription cost if the game needs more revenue. Of course, revenue to survive isn't why big games do cash shops that are like WoW's or most (all?) others. That said, I'm not convinced that a Cash Shop necessarily needs to be a "Cash Grab". There's certainly a gray area between downloadable expansions and an buyable ponies.
There is no question that Blizzard will keep their subscription model while they introduce RMT, they want to have their cake and eat it.
That's excatly what I did, I went straight to my battlenet account page and unsubbed. But as they say I am only a dime in blizzard's cash cow flow.
I find it very suspicious when a company ventures into RMT and uses "it's for charity" to cover the fact that they are jumping into an arena that most of us hate. I think it is downright low and decietful to try to cover up your new business venture with a charity ploy and not give 100% of the proceeds to said charity. Is it not odd to anyone else that their fisrt footsteps into this arena were cleverly masked with a charity donation. 1.1mil is a drop in the bucket to Blizz specially considering most software companies do a 2 year development cost recoup, that gives Blizz 4 years of revenue - operating costs. Not to mention character recustomization, server transfers, faction change, name change etc. Its not about how much they contributed to charity its about how they went about it and how they used it Blizz giving charity 1.1mil is like me giving charity $11.
I was referring more to the current items and their prices. That said though you are correct that SOE took quite a few lumps initially, but there they are still moving forward. 10 million registered players on their game and still selling subs/expansions on their older games.
I wouldn't say everyone closed their eyes on Blizzard though. They have been doing pet sales and the TCG mounts for awhile, this wasn't really that earth shattering of an event.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Firstly I would like to say how good an article this is . It very much gets to the crux of the matter .
I've often wondered how far Blizzard can push RMT before Warcraft players stand up and say this is a step too far .
From what I've seen and read in these forums the answer is that Blizzard could introduce a cash shop selling non-vanity items and vast numbers of players would still argue that its a great thing for the game .
I don't think its likly we will see the sale of armor and weapons before the Cataclysm xpac but I think theres a strong possibility that it will happen within the year following its release .
How it will be justified is that the items will offered will be most likly the welfare epics for those people that don't want to waste hours earning them through battleground play etc . A short cut as it were .
In the meantime I think we will see such things as paid class transfers ( ie change your hunter to a rogue etc ) . This is something I suggested would happen in these forums a couple of years ago .At the time I remember many Warcraft fans saying it would never happen because it would be a step too far ( along incidently with faction changing , allowing players to have horde and alliance characters on the same servers and premium pets and mounts all have which become a reality ).
I guess all bets are now off and I'd imagine Blizzard have every intention of seeing how far they can go .
Seeing the way things are going I'm glad I gave up last year and if I get the urge to get Cataclysm and go back . I'm going to pinch myself and remember the push towards RMT which makes Warcraft a big No Go for me in future .