I actually like the OP's idea of pay-per-death. As has been mentioned, people pay a TON of money for much more ridiculous things than this in video games. Ever hear of Farmville?
oh so if some other sap is willing to pay for stupid items in a game that justifies the developers throwing in another stupid charge on top of what you pay to play the game to start with for something that is vital to playing the game being alive in it,
I could careless about the stupid things people spend their money on in cash shops thats their business but to implement a pay to be alive item on top of whatever monthly fee your paying is just wrong period.
but hey if you like paying for everything maybe you should play entropia I hear you have to pay real money to even kill a mob so maybe that is up your alley.
The choice is yours to make. Should someone make a game with this feature, you can always go play WoW or something else. To some of us, the appeal of death having severe penalties in these games is very strong. One of the reasons people run around and gank other people is because if they ended up being killed while acting like a jackass, they just respawn. The same goes for careless combat tactics. Obviously the pay-per-death system would have to be thought through, and could also include other restrictions such as safe areas, but I'm not apposed to exploring the idea just because money is involved. I believe many other people would be into it as well.
Go out and play paintball. After you get popped a few times and end up with some red-purple bruises, and it hurts, you will see how much more exciting the game is, and how much more seriously you take the combat. It hurts just enough that you DO NOT want to get hit if you can help it. This is the same kind of concept we are talking about here, and it is a game changer.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
"Pay per death"?? Can you imagine what the gankers and griefers would do with that? Not to mention, it sets up a perverse incentive for the Dev's themselves. They *benefit* from players dying. That type of game would not only narrowly niche itself, but I seriously suspect it would take an excentric billiionare type to even consider funding it. The past history of sand box type games has demonstrated that they become havens for gankers and griefers. Thanks, but no thanks.
There are a lot of people around here who suffer from EXTREMELY narrow imaginations and ability to think through a concept completely. For those of us who do not have this limitation, we like to think of the possibilities. Why don't you sit down and explore the pay-per-death idea completely and see what you come up with. Add other rules, change pay per death to something else that would be equally motivating, but not cost money. Come up with some good ideas. Don't just sit there in your chair freaking out because your mind won't let you imagine anything but the worst case scenario.
Thank god for creative minds, or we would all still be sitting in caves and hunting our food with rocks and sticks.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I actually like the OP's idea of pay-per-death. As has been mentioned, people pay a TON of money for much more ridiculous things than this in video games. Ever hear of Farmville?
oh so if some other sap is willing to pay for stupid items in a game that justifies the developers throwing in another stupid charge on top of what you pay to play the game to start with for something that is vital to playing the game being alive in it,
I could careless about the stupid things people spend their money on in cash shops thats their business but to implement a pay to be alive item on top of whatever monthly fee your paying is just wrong period.
but hey if you like paying for everything maybe you should play entropia I hear you have to pay real money to even kill a mob so maybe that is up your alley.
The choice is yours to make. Should someone make a game with this feature, you can always go play WoW or something else. To some of us, the appeal of death having severe penalties in these games is very strong. One of the reasons people run around and gank other people is because if they ended up being killed while acting like a jackass, they just respawn. The same goes for careless combat tactics. Obviously the pay-per-death system would have to be thought through, and could also include other restrictions such as safe areas, but I'm not apposed to exploring the idea just because money is involved. I believe many other people would be into it as well.
Go out and play paintball. After you get popped a few times and end up with some red-purple bruises, and it hurts, you will see how much more exciting the game is, and how much more seriously you take the combat. It hurts just enough that you DO NOT want to get hit if you can help it. This is the same kind of concept we are talking about here, and it is a game changer.
lol its the go play wow defense I also bet your one of those that hates f2p games also which this idea of paying per death is no different than its called paying for advantage
and to answer your post right above this one maybe read up farther i did throw in an idea like having to spend time raising a npc child that would take your place if you died
the whole idea of paying money to respawn i still dont see why some are saying it would be a good idea most likely some of the some rail on f2p games also which this would be in the same vein with the pay to respawn idea
and what does wow have to do with anything anyways least of all giving developers more ideas on how to part you from your money?
I actually like the OP's idea of pay-per-death. As has been mentioned, people pay a TON of money for much more ridiculous things than this in video games. Ever hear of Farmville?
oh so if some other sap is willing to pay for stupid items in a game that justifies the developers throwing in another stupid charge on top of what you pay to play the game to start with for something that is vital to playing the game being alive in it,
I could careless about the stupid things people spend their money on in cash shops thats their business but to implement a pay to be alive item on top of whatever monthly fee your paying is just wrong period.
but hey if you like paying for everything maybe you should play entropia I hear you have to pay real money to even kill a mob so maybe that is up your alley.
The choice is yours to make. Should someone make a game with this feature, you can always go play WoW or something else. To some of us, the appeal of death having severe penalties in these games is very strong. One of the reasons people run around and gank other people is because if they ended up being killed while acting like a jackass, they just respawn. The same goes for careless combat tactics. Obviously the pay-per-death system would have to be thought through, and could also include other restrictions such as safe areas, but I'm not apposed to exploring the idea just because money is involved. I believe many other people would be into it as well.
Go out and play paintball. After you get popped a few times and end up with some red-purple bruises, and it hurts, you will see how much more exciting the game is, and how much more seriously you take the combat. It hurts just enough that you DO NOT want to get hit if you can help it. This is the same kind of concept we are talking about here, and it is a game changer.
lol its the go play wow defense I also bet your one of those that hates f2p games also which this idea of paying per death is no different than its called paying for advantage
and to answer your post right above this one maybe read up farther i did throw in an idea like having to spend time raising a npc child that would take your place if you died
the whole idea of paying money to respawn i still dont see why some are saying it would be a good idea most likely some of the some rail on f2p games also which this would be in the same vein with the pay to respawn idea
Yeah, I hate f2p games, that's why it states clearly in my signature that I played (still play) Guild Wars, and the number one game I am looking forward to is Guild Wars 2. Also, every f2p game out there has a shop full of stuff people pay for every day, and many times they are paying for advantage. That's the way it goes.
Wow was just a name pulled from the hat. The point is, that not every player matches up with every game. If you don't like the rules of the game, go find something else. It's really that simple. No one is obligated to make a game with all the rules that make YOU personally happy. Some of us would be interested in seeing a game with a concept like pay-per-death. Some wouldn't. See how that works?
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I actually like the OP's idea of pay-per-death. As has been mentioned, people pay a TON of money for much more ridiculous things than this in video games. Ever hear of Farmville?
oh so if some other sap is willing to pay for stupid items in a game that justifies the developers throwing in another stupid charge on top of what you pay to play the game to start with for something that is vital to playing the game being alive in it,
I could careless about the stupid things people spend their money on in cash shops thats their business but to implement a pay to be alive item on top of whatever monthly fee your paying is just wrong period.
but hey if you like paying for everything maybe you should play entropia I hear you have to pay real money to even kill a mob so maybe that is up your alley.
The choice is yours to make. Should someone make a game with this feature, you can always go play WoW or something else. To some of us, the appeal of death having severe penalties in these games is very strong. One of the reasons people run around and gank other people is because if they ended up being killed while acting like a jackass, they just respawn. The same goes for careless combat tactics. Obviously the pay-per-death system would have to be thought through, and could also include other restrictions such as safe areas, but I'm not apposed to exploring the idea just because money is involved. I believe many other people would be into it as well.
Go out and play paintball. After you get popped a few times and end up with some red-purple bruises, and it hurts, you will see how much more exciting the game is, and how much more seriously you take the combat. It hurts just enough that you DO NOT want to get hit if you can help it. This is the same kind of concept we are talking about here, and it is a game changer.
lol its the go play wow defense I also bet your one of those that hates f2p games also which this idea of paying per death is no different than its called paying for advantage
and to answer your post right above this one maybe read up farther i did throw in an idea like having to spend time raising a npc child that would take your place if you died
the whole idea of paying money to respawn i still dont see why some are saying it would be a good idea most likely some of the some rail on f2p games also which this would be in the same vein with the pay to respawn idea
Yeah, I hate f2p games, that's why it states clearly in my signature that I played (still play) Guild Wars, and the number one game I am looking forward to is Guild Wars 2. Also, every f2p game out there has a shop full of stuff people pay for every day, and many times they are paying for advantage. That's the way it goes.
Wow was just a name pulled from the hat. The point is, that not every player matches up with every game. If you don't like the rules of the game, go find something else. It's really that simple. No one is obligated to make a game with all the rules that make YOU personally happy. Some of us would be interested in seeing a game with a concept like pay-per-death. Some wouldn't. See how that works?
consequences for dying and what not dont bother me its the idea of putting a monetary value on it especially if you are already paying money to play it you shouldnt have to pay on top of that to keep playing it if somehow you died, maybe if it was a f2p game that wouldnt bother me as much but if it was a p2p game thats a different story
I've always been a fan of harsh death penalties. Perma-death, full loot, etc are all things I support in my "dream-game". I never thought of paying per death before, and now that you mentioned it..... I love the idea. I'm sure the idea has been floated about at game company meetings but what's the reality of this becoming a possibility? I guess the correct combat system that is evenly-balanced and a true virtual world need to be created to host this type of things but paying per death sounds extremely appealing to me. It's one step below perma-death, but one step above full-loot. Perfect.
With that said, is the community anywhere near accepting this type of payment model?
Serious death penalties makes every close call an adrenaline rush, and every minor achievement a major victory. This alternative rule-set should be in all MMORPGs.
I've always been a fan of harsh death penalties. Perma-death, full loot, etc are all things I support in my "dream-game". I never thought of paying per death before, and now that you mentioned it..... I love the idea. I'm sure the idea has been floated about at game company meetings but what's the reality of this becoming a possibility? I guess the correct combat system that is evenly-balanced and a true virtual world need to be created to host this type of things but paying per death sounds extremely appealing to me. It's one step below perma-death, but one step above full-loot. Perfect.
With that said, is the community anywhere near accepting this type of payment model?
People have a hard time with anything related to perma-death. The main reason is, the first thing they think of is how easy it is to die or get ganked in today's games. When you look at it from that perspective, I completely understand their fear.
However, any game that wants to seriously implement permadeath (the kind where your avatar dies, but you can create a new one and start over) or pay-per-death would have to make sweeping changes to game mechanics in order to make it work. Just off the top of my head:
Safe areas where you can socialize without fearing death.
rare drops that will resurrect a dead player (used on self or someone else)
people are generally more difficult to kill, and healers are extremely important
grace period where your toon can respawn when killed until you reach a level where you should be familiar with the game and how to play it
a system that regulates ganking to some degree
We aren't just taking about a system where you go in on day one and get killed 5 times. A system has to be thought through, but I think once it was, it could be very cool.
In New Cap City, no one paid to be there, but being there is almost pricless. The game really has to make being there worthy of the fear of death. Someone needs to make a small scale concept of this to test it out. You can't just create a modern MMO with this as a key feature today. It needs to be worked out and proven.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I've always been a fan of harsh death penalties. Perma-death, full loot, etc are all things I support in my "dream-game". I never thought of paying per death before, and now that you mentioned it..... I love the idea. I'm sure the idea has been floated about at game company meetings but what's the reality of this becoming a possibility? I guess the correct combat system that is evenly-balanced and a true virtual world need to be created to host this type of things but paying per death sounds extremely appealing to me. It's one step below perma-death, but one step above full-loot. Perfect.
With that said, is the community anywhere near accepting this type of payment model?
In favor of it being done properly sure, but there are a lot of ways this could go. You coul have 2 extremes. In 1 case you could have people with more $ nonstop griefing other players simply because they know it has a financial impact (just think of all the times youve seen people nerdraging at eachother over a comment in chat, what would happen if rathe rthan just harassing them in a game, you could actually cause RL impact to that person by causing them to spend more money). In the other extreme you could have the majority of people too afraid to do much of anything, experimenting/exploring new untested areas, pvping, etc and the game could become pretty stagnant because you may only have a few willing to spend that $, while everyone else is too afraid to do anything interesting.
The problem would be trying to find that perfect middle ground. I think a better option would be to have varying degrees of injury and death. For the most part, you lose a battle and become seriously injured/wounded temporarily, causing various effects depending on the situation such as becoming disoriented, losing the use of limbs, head trauma causing you to lose memory (perhaps loss of skills/skill points or something), being blinded/blurred vision, becoming deaf (unable to see chat or something like that). Perhaps you could even have actual facilities like hospitals, and ambulances/EMTs to respond and assist you, and players could even take up the roles of doctors who gain xp/money/etc for performing medical treatments.
You could have all of those various things, which would cause some pretty serious "death" penalties, which would be only temporary in some cases, but others would need to be treated medically at a high cost (in game, not RL $) or else would remain on you permanently.
Perhaps there could also be a system put in place which tracks various vitals and scores them based on previous injuries, and they become progressively tougher/more expensive to treat, and in some cases completely untreatable & permanent. You could then use these scores to basically measure towards a true death, in which sustaining too many injuries for too long and then "dying" again would actually cause a permadeath. This would give you plenty of chance to learn from mistakes, maintain the same character, etc while still having an eventual permadeath if you arent careful.
Now of course this is all still open to griefing, just like the pay option, but systems & tools could be put into place to allow players to develop their own policing (or bounty hunter) force, which could respond to things like griefing as a crime, and hunt down griefers and inflicting severe penalties on them (such as taking their money and possessions to be contributed towards funding their "police" force). Perhaps a judicial system could also be implemented in which certain players can be judged, and given a punishment such as some sort of mark/title on their record which prevent them from being able to go certain places or do certain things similar to how it works IRL (such as not being permitted to carry weapons).
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I've always been a fan of harsh death penalties. Perma-death, full loot, etc are all things I support in my "dream-game". I never thought of paying per death before, and now that you mentioned it..... I love the idea. I'm sure the idea has been floated about at game company meetings but what's the reality of this becoming a possibility? I guess the correct combat system that is evenly-balanced and a true virtual world need to be created to host this type of things but paying per death sounds extremely appealing to me. It's one step below perma-death, but one step above full-loot. Perfect.
With that said, is the community anywhere near accepting this type of payment model?
People have a hard time with anything related to perma-death. The main reason is, the first thing they think of is how easy it is to die or get ganked in today's games. When you look at it from that perspective, I completely understand their fear.
However, any game that wants to seriously implement permadeath (the kind where your avatar dies, but you can create a new one and start over) or pay-per-death would have to make sweeping changes to game mechanics in order to make it work. Just off the top of my head:
Safe areas where you can socialize without fearing death.
rare drops that will resurrect a dead player (used on self or someone else)
people are generally more difficult to kill, and healers are extremely important
grace period where your toon can respawn when killed until you reach a level where you should be familiar with the game and how to play it
a system that regulates ganking to some degree
We aren't just taking about a system where you go in on day one and get killed 5 times. A system has to be thought through, but I think once it was, it could be very cool.
In New Cap City, no one paid to be there, but being there is almost pricless. The game really has to make being there worthy of the fear of death. Someone needs to make a small scale concept of this to test it out. You can't just create a modern MMO with this as a key feature today. It needs to be worked out and proven.
Well said. Of course you couldn't use games like WoW as a template for this type of game. Death can happen all too quickly, and very cheaply if you're out-leveled. As you've pointed out, the game-world itself needs to justify the harsh death penalty to attract players and keep them there. Your bullet points are also a good thing to point out. No one wants to feel cheated out of their hard-earned real life cash in a video game. There needs to be some type of prevention to minimize that feeling.
I'm optimistic we're almost done with the "Goden Age of Raiding" (thankfully). One can only hope that MMORPGs take a turn towards virtual worlds (sort of where the genre was when it started) where simulation and gameplay becomes the spotlight rather than connecting to Ventrilo to do a dungeon run for that ultra rare, cool-looking sword.
The more and more I type this reply I realize CCP has succeeded against all odds, even if just barely, in such an anti-sandbox gaming community. Then again, their success is most likely the outcome of having almost zero competition in such a niche market.
The whole Caprica "Virtual New York City" sounds neat, but would be such an enormous undertaking. Baby steps.
Serious death penalties makes every close call an adrenaline rush, and every minor achievement a major victory. This alternative rule-set should be in all MMORPGs.
I've always been a fan of harsh death penalties. Perma-death, full loot, etc are all things I support in my "dream-game". I never thought of paying per death before, and now that you mentioned it..... I love the idea. I'm sure the idea has been floated about at game company meetings but what's the reality of this becoming a possibility? I guess the correct combat system that is evenly-balanced and a true virtual world need to be created to host this type of things but paying per death sounds extremely appealing to me. It's one step below perma-death, but one step above full-loot. Perfect.
With that said, is the community anywhere near accepting this type of payment model?
In favor of it being done properly sure, but there are a lot of ways this could go. You coul have 2 extremes. In 1 case you could have people with more $ nonstop griefing other players simply because they know it has a financial impact (just think of all the times youve seen people nerdraging at eachother over a comment in chat, what would happen if rathe rthan just harassing them in a game, you could actually cause RL impact to that person by causing them to spend more money). In the other extreme you could have the majority of people too afraid to do much of anything, experimenting/exploring new untested areas, pvping, etc and the game could become pretty stagnant because you may only have a few willing to spend that $, while everyone else is too afraid to do anything interesting.
The problem would be trying to find that perfect middle ground. I think a better option would be to have varying degrees of injury and death. For the most part, you lose a battle and become seriously injured/wounded temporarily, causing various effects depending on the situation such as becoming disoriented, losing the use of limbs, head trauma causing you to lose memory (perhaps loss of skills/skill points or something), being blinded/blurred vision, becoming deaf (unable to see chat or something like that). Perhaps you could even have actual facilities like hospitals, and ambulances/EMTs to respond and assist you, and players could even take up the roles of doctors who gain xp/money/etc for performing medical treatments.
You could have all of those various things, which would cause some pretty serious "death" penalties, which would be only temporary in some cases, but others would need to be treated medically at a high cost (in game, not RL $) or else would remain on you permanently.
Perhaps there could also be a system put in place which tracks various vitals and scores them based on previous injuries, and they become progressively tougher/more expensive to treat, and in some cases completely untreatable & permanent. You could then use these scores to basically measure towards a true death, in which sustaining too many injuries for too long and then "dying" again would actually cause a permadeath. This would give you plenty of chance to learn from mistakes, maintain the same character, etc while still having an eventual permadeath if you arent careful.
Now of course this is all still open to griefing, just like the pay option, but systems & tools could be put into place to allow players to develop their own policing (or bounty hunter) force, which could respond to things like griefing as a crime, and hunt down griefers and inflicting severe penalties on them (such as taking their money and possessions to be contributed towards funding their "police" force). Perhaps a judicial system could also be implemented in which certain players can be judged, and given a punishment such as some sort of mark/title on their record which prevent them from being able to go certain places or do certain things similar to how it works IRL (such as not being permitted to carry weapons).
I understand where you're coming from. There would be negatives and positives of implementing a pay-per-death payment model. This also comes with any death system. There's so many alternative ways of implementing death that the conversation could go on forever.
With the way you have described above, such as having medical doctors for the injured and a judicial system for the law-breakers. It all sounds great when imagining it, but entertainment is something hard to create, especially if I'm a lawyer in a video game. Sounds great, but is that even remotely appealing to "play"? There's a fine line of being an enjoyable simulation and horribly boring.
Serious death penalties makes every close call an adrenaline rush, and every minor achievement a major victory. This alternative rule-set should be in all MMORPGs.
I don't have much to say on the death penalty. I suppose it could go either way, depending on how the game comes across, and I feel isn't really productive to speculate about. Without parallel examples to use we're just left with a lot of conjecture.
Instead, I want to mention my thoughts on the game itself. I remember when I saw that episode of Caprica, and I recall thinking at the time the idea of a New Cap City was preposterous.
Keep in mind that the reason it seems even remotely interesting to most of us is because the OLD Cap City doesn't even exist, so the New one would be a completely original copy. It would require creating a setting, which usually requires laying the foundation of a story at the very least, and the foundation of mythos necessary for the BSG universe. These elements I, and likely most gamers, find more than just passingly interesting.
If, however, you took New Cap City as it was to the fictional Capricans, perhaps in our world a New Philadelphia City, I would find it critically dull. A game that mirrors some real-world location, where I'm free to kill other people and pursue a goal that does / does not exist sounds like a very, very, very small niche market, probably for a handful of die-hard PvP'ers, and that's about it. I can't imagine the majority having much interest in a game that lacks goals, structure, rewards and even any elements of interesting fantasy or escapism. Sandbox play alone isn't worth it sacrificing the rest of a real game, despite what a very tiny majority would have everyone else believe. I think, even to them, the allure of a "goal that is not a goal" would fade quickly.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
There are a lot of people around here who suffer from EXTREMELY narrow imaginations and ability to think through a concept completely. For those of us who do not have this limitation, we like to think of the possibilities. Why don't you sit down and explore the pay-per-death idea completely and see what you come up with. Add other rules, change pay per death to something else that would be equally motivating, but not cost money. Come up with some good ideas. Don't just sit there in your chair freaking out because your mind won't let you imagine anything but the worst case scenario.
Thank god for creative minds, or we would all still be sitting in caves and hunting our food with rocks and sticks.
Well... When dealing with sand boxes, history has demonstrated that what one gets IS the worst case scenario. Human nature being what it is, thats a given. With all of the rule sets that have been tried, the fact remains that the Dev's end up doing something to protect their business model(think current Concord in Eve Online) or the game goes out of business. Its not a matter of a lack of imagination, its more a good grasp of human nature, and the history of sand box games.
i once remarked that the future is soon to become the movie gamer where people pay to play other people and others get paid to be played sounds great and all just sounds like the road to hell is paved with good intentions or something of that ilk
btw i was labeled as crazy for saying that but honestly shit like this makes me sound a whole lot saner red pill or blue pill take your pick
Why do people think of Pay per death as the ideal scenerio? I would prefer if you died, you wouldn't respawn for x days, perhaps a week. Time is the only currency everyone has somewhat equal access to. As long as you were only allowed one account, limited in some way by having to prove your identity then it should be fine. You would then put effort into making sure you weren't kicked out of the game for a week. You would build communities who would protect one another.
This is all easy if the graphics are low quality or if it's text based. As we have MUDS that offer almost exactly this and SecondLife is on it's way there graphically. It's generally going to be an entirely different atmosphere than the real world. This is what it's meant to be, an escape from the consequences in the real world.
you forgot that new cap city has perma-death, i.e 1 life and you can never go back.
Who's gonna pay for that? no one.
Forgot, or spent a paragraph explicitly mentioning? It's a fine line.
Reading comprehension for the win. Czanrei's "There is already an mmo like this...it's called "Second Life" comment, shows me he didn't read the entire article either.
I have to say this is an intriguing idea. I've never seen or even heard of the show Caprica until now, but the premise sounds fascinating. It reminds me of a couple of other intellectual properties. One that someone already mentioned is the rather disturbing game Sociolatron, and the other is the book Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson. Of course three problems I see that would need to be overcome before such a game could be made are the computing power needed, the sheer exhausting amount of labor such an endeavor would take a development team to create and maintain, and the permadeath option. Time and technological progress will fix the first two but I have serious doubts many people would play a game with a permadeath penalty, at least for very long.
I refuse to even attempt to delve into the questions of economy, or classes, skills vs level progression, crafting, etc that seem to be the core of current MMORPG design, and in many ways their downfall.
How do you figure I didn't read the whole thread?? Just because "Second Life" isn't named NCC doesn't deter from the point that the OP stated he didn't want a niche-based IP anyhow based directly off of NCC, which is where SL comes in. Not to mention the fact that SL does have a Caprica sim anyhow, a few of them actually. Try understanding a poster's point before flaming them needlessly next time, thanks.
I'd be very curious to know how many people who support a pay-per-death concept also are of the mindset that companies are making games for money and anything else is a far second.
As another poster said If you assume that companies are doing it for money then you would also have to assume that companies are going to impliment things that will drive up the death count or at the very least they wont be building in systems that will prevent you from dying more often than not.
If I were a developer on a pay-per-death MMO the very very very first weapon type that I would add would be bombs/traps/mines/claymores/IEDs. And since these weapons provide a relatively safe way for the user to kill another people would eat them up. The second thing I would do would be to add the really effective ones items to a cash shop so I can get money coming and going.
I'm all for alternative payment models (the only one I downright hate is Subs Plus) but a lot of the alternative models are open to huge abuses by the developers (I'm not saying all developers would or do abuse their payment models, but it certainly happens and a pay-per-death would be no different)
I think that sub plus would be perfect here .. it would do away with developers wanting to "make death to easy" or intentionally finding ways to garner more death token sales ...
I agree with the above poster though .. time is the greatest commodity we all have access too .. you die your character dies for a day .. not too harsh but still .. now your gonna have to go find something else to do .. dammit .. my guild/team/friends won't have me around for the big raid/battle/grindfest/etc .. oh man .. now i have to go outside and do something cause i was stupid and thought that guy was afk ..
people would be forced to consider their actions vs consequences .. imagine SWG with this kind of system implemented... hmmm .. Jedi ... he's standing right there .. maybe i can take him .. i wonder if he has friends close by .. well he is in X clan .. they usually hang out on the other side of town .. perhaps if i get the drop on him .. maybe i should follow him to a more secluded area ..
real consequences make the game more interesting .. that is why people like full loot .. (those who do) .. your time was spent gathering those virtual sticks/rocks/berries/whatever .. if you die on the way to the bank .. your time is lost .. cant be gotten back either .. so you take pains to avoid that death .. Darkfall for instance .. no one fights anyone unless they are 100% sure they will win if they have something very valuable on them .. no one .. the risk vs. reward just isnt high enough ..
so what would a day/week/hour of your play time be worth .. think risk vs. reward .. what would you be willing to gamble? how much contemplation would it take to attack that guy/jump in to save a potentially doomed friend? .. what about save a stranger?? now your talking real social interaction .. thanks man you just saved me and now i will make that raid tonight after all .. you should come along
If you kill somebody who has no warrant on them you have to pay, a moderate fee. This would keep random killing in-check.
The Dead person is locked out for 24hours, all there possesions are forfeit while they are dead, people can bring them to a hospital if theyre in a critical condition to wake them up sooner. Bank deposits can be made, and items can be stored in any location.
Literally you get billed at the end of the month for each person you killed.
This way there would be little killing in the game, and it would focus on social and economic gameplay, with strategic killings.
The only way this would work is if the sub-scription fee for the game was in-game currency, then in-game currency could be used to pay kill-debts.
There could be serious gameplay to be had. Additionally if in-game currency could be cashed out then how much intrigue would there be?. Bounties could be payed for with real money, and cashed out. There would be an intelligence game outside of the virtual game, information on money and goods being moved around, back-stabbing and power-struggles could earn you actual money.
In-game property(land and vehicles) could be bought and sold; weapons and equipement could be supplied and distributed by players themselves. The game would be serious buisness.
I love the idea, I loved Caprica, I love Sandbox games. However do we really believe this is the general direction for mmo's? This site just the other day had the news article regarding the growing popularity and profitability of more superficial, casual gameplay and that this would be the direction for most of the VC in the near future. People now live in the plug and play society and thats exactly how they want their games. That's not to say thay sandbox has to be complex, but without direction people are required to think and create for themselves and this I just don't feel is the interest of the newer players in the mmo scene. They seem to want clear and defined objectives with just as clear and defined parameters for win and loss.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Comments
The choice is yours to make. Should someone make a game with this feature, you can always go play WoW or something else. To some of us, the appeal of death having severe penalties in these games is very strong. One of the reasons people run around and gank other people is because if they ended up being killed while acting like a jackass, they just respawn. The same goes for careless combat tactics. Obviously the pay-per-death system would have to be thought through, and could also include other restrictions such as safe areas, but I'm not apposed to exploring the idea just because money is involved. I believe many other people would be into it as well.
Go out and play paintball. After you get popped a few times and end up with some red-purple bruises, and it hurts, you will see how much more exciting the game is, and how much more seriously you take the combat. It hurts just enough that you DO NOT want to get hit if you can help it. This is the same kind of concept we are talking about here, and it is a game changer.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
"Pay per death"?? Can you imagine what the gankers and griefers would do with that? Not to mention, it sets up a perverse incentive for the Dev's themselves. They *benefit* from players dying. That type of game would not only narrowly niche itself, but I seriously suspect it would take an excentric billiionare type to even consider funding it. The past history of sand box type games has demonstrated that they become havens for gankers and griefers. Thanks, but no thanks.
ahh yeah.. about that, i got distracted by the apple! i swear!
There are a lot of people around here who suffer from EXTREMELY narrow imaginations and ability to think through a concept completely. For those of us who do not have this limitation, we like to think of the possibilities. Why don't you sit down and explore the pay-per-death idea completely and see what you come up with. Add other rules, change pay per death to something else that would be equally motivating, but not cost money. Come up with some good ideas. Don't just sit there in your chair freaking out because your mind won't let you imagine anything but the worst case scenario.
Thank god for creative minds, or we would all still be sitting in caves and hunting our food with rocks and sticks.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
lol its the go play wow defense I also bet your one of those that hates f2p games also which this idea of paying per death is no different than its called paying for advantage
and to answer your post right above this one maybe read up farther i did throw in an idea like having to spend time raising a npc child that would take your place if you died
the whole idea of paying money to respawn i still dont see why some are saying it would be a good idea most likely some of the some rail on f2p games also which this would be in the same vein with the pay to respawn idea
and what does wow have to do with anything anyways least of all giving developers more ideas on how to part you from your money?
Yeah, I hate f2p games, that's why it states clearly in my signature that I played (still play) Guild Wars, and the number one game I am looking forward to is Guild Wars 2. Also, every f2p game out there has a shop full of stuff people pay for every day, and many times they are paying for advantage. That's the way it goes.
Wow was just a name pulled from the hat. The point is, that not every player matches up with every game. If you don't like the rules of the game, go find something else. It's really that simple. No one is obligated to make a game with all the rules that make YOU personally happy. Some of us would be interested in seeing a game with a concept like pay-per-death. Some wouldn't. See how that works?
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
consequences for dying and what not dont bother me its the idea of putting a monetary value on it especially if you are already paying money to play it you shouldnt have to pay on top of that to keep playing it if somehow you died, maybe if it was a f2p game that wouldnt bother me as much but if it was a p2p game thats a different story
I've always been a fan of harsh death penalties. Perma-death, full loot, etc are all things I support in my "dream-game". I never thought of paying per death before, and now that you mentioned it..... I love the idea. I'm sure the idea has been floated about at game company meetings but what's the reality of this becoming a possibility? I guess the correct combat system that is evenly-balanced and a true virtual world need to be created to host this type of things but paying per death sounds extremely appealing to me. It's one step below perma-death, but one step above full-loot. Perfect.
With that said, is the community anywhere near accepting this type of payment model?
Serious death penalties makes every close call an adrenaline rush, and every minor achievement a major victory. This alternative rule-set should be in all MMORPGs.
People have a hard time with anything related to perma-death. The main reason is, the first thing they think of is how easy it is to die or get ganked in today's games. When you look at it from that perspective, I completely understand their fear.
However, any game that wants to seriously implement permadeath (the kind where your avatar dies, but you can create a new one and start over) or pay-per-death would have to make sweeping changes to game mechanics in order to make it work. Just off the top of my head:
Safe areas where you can socialize without fearing death.
rare drops that will resurrect a dead player (used on self or someone else)
people are generally more difficult to kill, and healers are extremely important
grace period where your toon can respawn when killed until you reach a level where you should be familiar with the game and how to play it
a system that regulates ganking to some degree
We aren't just taking about a system where you go in on day one and get killed 5 times. A system has to be thought through, but I think once it was, it could be very cool.
In New Cap City, no one paid to be there, but being there is almost pricless. The game really has to make being there worthy of the fear of death. Someone needs to make a small scale concept of this to test it out. You can't just create a modern MMO with this as a key feature today. It needs to be worked out and proven.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
In favor of it being done properly sure, but there are a lot of ways this could go. You coul have 2 extremes. In 1 case you could have people with more $ nonstop griefing other players simply because they know it has a financial impact (just think of all the times youve seen people nerdraging at eachother over a comment in chat, what would happen if rathe rthan just harassing them in a game, you could actually cause RL impact to that person by causing them to spend more money). In the other extreme you could have the majority of people too afraid to do much of anything, experimenting/exploring new untested areas, pvping, etc and the game could become pretty stagnant because you may only have a few willing to spend that $, while everyone else is too afraid to do anything interesting.
The problem would be trying to find that perfect middle ground. I think a better option would be to have varying degrees of injury and death. For the most part, you lose a battle and become seriously injured/wounded temporarily, causing various effects depending on the situation such as becoming disoriented, losing the use of limbs, head trauma causing you to lose memory (perhaps loss of skills/skill points or something), being blinded/blurred vision, becoming deaf (unable to see chat or something like that). Perhaps you could even have actual facilities like hospitals, and ambulances/EMTs to respond and assist you, and players could even take up the roles of doctors who gain xp/money/etc for performing medical treatments.
You could have all of those various things, which would cause some pretty serious "death" penalties, which would be only temporary in some cases, but others would need to be treated medically at a high cost (in game, not RL $) or else would remain on you permanently.
Perhaps there could also be a system put in place which tracks various vitals and scores them based on previous injuries, and they become progressively tougher/more expensive to treat, and in some cases completely untreatable & permanent. You could then use these scores to basically measure towards a true death, in which sustaining too many injuries for too long and then "dying" again would actually cause a permadeath. This would give you plenty of chance to learn from mistakes, maintain the same character, etc while still having an eventual permadeath if you arent careful.
Now of course this is all still open to griefing, just like the pay option, but systems & tools could be put into place to allow players to develop their own policing (or bounty hunter) force, which could respond to things like griefing as a crime, and hunt down griefers and inflicting severe penalties on them (such as taking their money and possessions to be contributed towards funding their "police" force). Perhaps a judicial system could also be implemented in which certain players can be judged, and given a punishment such as some sort of mark/title on their record which prevent them from being able to go certain places or do certain things similar to how it works IRL (such as not being permitted to carry weapons).
Interesting short read about New Cap City.
SPOILER ALERTS for those who haven't seen the first season yet.
http://www.capricatv.net/2010/02/next-stop-new-cap-city.html
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Well said. Of course you couldn't use games like WoW as a template for this type of game. Death can happen all too quickly, and very cheaply if you're out-leveled. As you've pointed out, the game-world itself needs to justify the harsh death penalty to attract players and keep them there. Your bullet points are also a good thing to point out. No one wants to feel cheated out of their hard-earned real life cash in a video game. There needs to be some type of prevention to minimize that feeling.
I'm optimistic we're almost done with the "Goden Age of Raiding" (thankfully). One can only hope that MMORPGs take a turn towards virtual worlds (sort of where the genre was when it started) where simulation and gameplay becomes the spotlight rather than connecting to Ventrilo to do a dungeon run for that ultra rare, cool-looking sword.
The more and more I type this reply I realize CCP has succeeded against all odds, even if just barely, in such an anti-sandbox gaming community. Then again, their success is most likely the outcome of having almost zero competition in such a niche market.
The whole Caprica "Virtual New York City" sounds neat, but would be such an enormous undertaking. Baby steps.
Serious death penalties makes every close call an adrenaline rush, and every minor achievement a major victory. This alternative rule-set should be in all MMORPGs.
I understand where you're coming from. There would be negatives and positives of implementing a pay-per-death payment model. This also comes with any death system. There's so many alternative ways of implementing death that the conversation could go on forever.
With the way you have described above, such as having medical doctors for the injured and a judicial system for the law-breakers. It all sounds great when imagining it, but entertainment is something hard to create, especially if I'm a lawyer in a video game. Sounds great, but is that even remotely appealing to "play"? There's a fine line of being an enjoyable simulation and horribly boring.
Serious death penalties makes every close call an adrenaline rush, and every minor achievement a major victory. This alternative rule-set should be in all MMORPGs.
I don't have much to say on the death penalty. I suppose it could go either way, depending on how the game comes across, and I feel isn't really productive to speculate about. Without parallel examples to use we're just left with a lot of conjecture.
Instead, I want to mention my thoughts on the game itself. I remember when I saw that episode of Caprica, and I recall thinking at the time the idea of a New Cap City was preposterous.
Keep in mind that the reason it seems even remotely interesting to most of us is because the OLD Cap City doesn't even exist, so the New one would be a completely original copy. It would require creating a setting, which usually requires laying the foundation of a story at the very least, and the foundation of mythos necessary for the BSG universe. These elements I, and likely most gamers, find more than just passingly interesting.
If, however, you took New Cap City as it was to the fictional Capricans, perhaps in our world a New Philadelphia City, I would find it critically dull. A game that mirrors some real-world location, where I'm free to kill other people and pursue a goal that does / does not exist sounds like a very, very, very small niche market, probably for a handful of die-hard PvP'ers, and that's about it. I can't imagine the majority having much interest in a game that lacks goals, structure, rewards and even any elements of interesting fantasy or escapism. Sandbox play alone isn't worth it sacrificing the rest of a real game, despite what a very tiny majority would have everyone else believe. I think, even to them, the allure of a "goal that is not a goal" would fade quickly.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
Well... When dealing with sand boxes, history has demonstrated that what one gets IS the worst case scenario. Human nature being what it is, thats a given. With all of the rule sets that have been tried, the fact remains that the Dev's end up doing something to protect their business model(think current Concord in Eve Online) or the game goes out of business. Its not a matter of a lack of imagination, its more a good grasp of human nature, and the history of sand box games.
I would like to see it.
i once remarked that the future is soon to become the movie gamer where people pay to play other people and others get paid to be played sounds great and all just sounds like the road to hell is paved with good intentions or something of that ilk
btw i was labeled as crazy for saying that but honestly shit like this makes me sound a whole lot saner red pill or blue pill take your pick
Why do people think of Pay per death as the ideal scenerio? I would prefer if you died, you wouldn't respawn for x days, perhaps a week. Time is the only currency everyone has somewhat equal access to. As long as you were only allowed one account, limited in some way by having to prove your identity then it should be fine. You would then put effort into making sure you weren't kicked out of the game for a week. You would build communities who would protect one another.
This is all easy if the graphics are low quality or if it's text based. As we have MUDS that offer almost exactly this and SecondLife is on it's way there graphically. It's generally going to be an entirely different atmosphere than the real world. This is what it's meant to be, an escape from the consequences in the real world.
how about new jack city =p
How do you figure I didn't read the whole thread?? Just because "Second Life" isn't named NCC doesn't deter from the point that the OP stated he didn't want a niche-based IP anyhow based directly off of NCC, which is where SL comes in. Not to mention the fact that SL does have a Caprica sim anyhow, a few of them actually. Try understanding a poster's point before flaming them needlessly next time, thanks.
"hangs ingame sign out now"....Griefer for hire, never wanna see that guy again? Just call 555-5555...
I'd be very curious to know how many people who support a pay-per-death concept also are of the mindset that companies are making games for money and anything else is a far second.
As another poster said If you assume that companies are doing it for money then you would also have to assume that companies are going to impliment things that will drive up the death count or at the very least they wont be building in systems that will prevent you from dying more often than not.
If I were a developer on a pay-per-death MMO the very very very first weapon type that I would add would be bombs/traps/mines/claymores/IEDs. And since these weapons provide a relatively safe way for the user to kill another people would eat them up. The second thing I would do would be to add the really effective ones items to a cash shop so I can get money coming and going.
I'm all for alternative payment models (the only one I downright hate is Subs Plus) but a lot of the alternative models are open to huge abuses by the developers (I'm not saying all developers would or do abuse their payment models, but it certainly happens and a pay-per-death would be no different)
I think that sub plus would be perfect here .. it would do away with developers wanting to "make death to easy" or intentionally finding ways to garner more death token sales ...
I agree with the above poster though .. time is the greatest commodity we all have access too .. you die your character dies for a day .. not too harsh but still .. now your gonna have to go find something else to do .. dammit .. my guild/team/friends won't have me around for the big raid/battle/grindfest/etc .. oh man .. now i have to go outside and do something cause i was stupid and thought that guy was afk ..
people would be forced to consider their actions vs consequences .. imagine SWG with this kind of system implemented... hmmm .. Jedi ... he's standing right there .. maybe i can take him .. i wonder if he has friends close by .. well he is in X clan .. they usually hang out on the other side of town .. perhaps if i get the drop on him .. maybe i should follow him to a more secluded area ..
real consequences make the game more interesting .. that is why people like full loot .. (those who do) .. your time was spent gathering those virtual sticks/rocks/berries/whatever .. if you die on the way to the bank .. your time is lost .. cant be gotten back either .. so you take pains to avoid that death .. Darkfall for instance .. no one fights anyone unless they are 100% sure they will win if they have something very valuable on them .. no one .. the risk vs. reward just isnt high enough ..
so what would a day/week/hour of your play time be worth .. think risk vs. reward .. what would you be willing to gamble? how much contemplation would it take to attack that guy/jump in to save a potentially doomed friend? .. what about save a stranger?? now your talking real social interaction .. thanks man you just saved me and now i will make that raid tonight after all .. you should come along
just food for thought
I have an idea!
Get this, pay to kill system!
If you kill somebody who has no warrant on them you have to pay, a moderate fee. This would keep random killing in-check.
The Dead person is locked out for 24hours, all there possesions are forfeit while they are dead, people can bring them to a hospital if theyre in a critical condition to wake them up sooner. Bank deposits can be made, and items can be stored in any location.
Literally you get billed at the end of the month for each person you killed.
This way there would be little killing in the game, and it would focus on social and economic gameplay, with strategic killings.
The only way this would work is if the sub-scription fee for the game was in-game currency, then in-game currency could be used to pay kill-debts.
There could be serious gameplay to be had. Additionally if in-game currency could be cashed out then how much intrigue would there be?. Bounties could be payed for with real money, and cashed out. There would be an intelligence game outside of the virtual game, information on money and goods being moved around, back-stabbing and power-struggles could earn you actual money.
In-game property(land and vehicles) could be bought and sold; weapons and equipement could be supplied and distributed by players themselves. The game would be serious buisness.
Just a thought.
I love the idea, I loved Caprica, I love Sandbox games. However do we really believe this is the general direction for mmo's? This site just the other day had the news article regarding the growing popularity and profitability of more superficial, casual gameplay and that this would be the direction for most of the VC in the near future. People now live in the plug and play society and thats exactly how they want their games. That's not to say thay sandbox has to be complex, but without direction people are required to think and create for themselves and this I just don't feel is the interest of the newer players in the mmo scene. They seem to want clear and defined objectives with just as clear and defined parameters for win and loss.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.