Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
The hate for certain developers
Rulero
Member UncommonPosts: 42
I was playing EQ2 recently and in the chat there was a discussion goin about future mmo's
someone wanted to be funny and said. " i wish richard garriot and brad mquad team up and make grumpy old man the mmo"
at that moment i thought. man they are just people like we. and it is so easy to bash them.
Evryone makes mistakes in their lives yes even garriot and brad. but why are they looked upon with hate these days
it are the two guys that invented our favourite genre. we all know about vanguard and TR but thats no reason for me to put them aside as some bad people. people just have no clue how hard it is to manage and develop a triple A mmo.
i dont want to say their careers are flawless but its just lame imo that after one mistake someone gets bashed into oblvion
also imo TR closed way to soon. nc soft didnt even gave it a decent chance
as for VG. brad has a post mortem blog on his site where he explains how evrything went wrong.
just my opinion on this
Comments
I think what it boils down to a basic concept. Past performance is the best indicator of future performance. A quick look at how many times Edison failed to make a long lasting light bulb will generate numbers ranging from 100-10,000. Who knows the correct number but the safe bet was whatever bulb he made it was going to fail. Did that mean he would never make one?No but the odds where it was not going to workout. He even had the paten before he found the correct combination to give him the product he wanted
Well... in terms of Richard Garriot I just think he has gotten old and doesn't know about modern game design. Maybe his creativity even failed to retain.
He HAD great ideas, but TR was flawed, even in theory (you could tell it will fail without playing it).
As for Vanguard. I don't know much about this game. It's just sad that the gamedesigners are the only ones getting bashed. It is also possible that you receive a bad game though the game design was great (when the rest of the development team sucks).
If I recall correctly, Garriot had his NAME on the title of Tabula Rasa.
With that kind of ego I don't think that man even cares how much we bash him.
I bet someone made that suggestion to him for marketing reasons. I don't think it was his initial idea.
Ultima Online is often shouted as "the father" of MMOs. Richart Garriot invented it, so it was no bad idea to put his name on Tabula Rasa. It was just a bad move making TR such a shitty game. ;-)
Now I'm at the opposite end of the scale since I couldn't even tell you who designed what and because of that mindset I just don't get it. Companies I can kind of understand even if I don't support that view (i.e. thier view: SOE is the evil empire no if, ands, or buts. My view: OK so they screwed the pouch on that one .... big deal).
I mean really; who designed the AMC Pacer or Ford Pinto? Did people actively research future cars and say; I'm not buying that Camero, the guy who came up with the Pacer did it (not a real example)? Or Shelby Mustang - great car. Shelby whatever name now - just milking the name.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
I do not know about vanguard, I never played it. Tabula Rasa I played the trail. The control were horrible, the shooter mechanics were wrong in that it did not flow. Attacking and being attacked was boring, more of the same old same attacking and wathing the health bar. I played for 30 minutes and then gave up. I do not hold it against the developer, everybody can make mistakes.
I have no hate for any individual developer, but the companies they work for. Unfortunately, Development is totally different than how it used to be. Noone has free reign over what's in, what's out. The companies decide what is "best", which is hardly ever right.
P.S. SOE does suck :P
"brad has a post mortem blog on his site where he explains how evrything went wrong."
You mean that revisionist history he wrote where with few exceptions he never sees his own responsibility? There are valid reasons to have issues with Brad McQuaid.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Maybe the hate some of these people get is deserved because there basicly nothing more than con artist's saying your going to get one thing then when you buy it it's a big dirty donkey poo they expect you to pay 15 euro a month for.
MBJ & that vanguard guy deserve all the shit they get, But i suppose i should thank for making me a jaded mmo gamer who wont buy a new mmo ever again cause everything ive played past eve eq2 & wow has been a below standard game that left a sour taste in my mouth, Also the draconian moderation on there website's / forums is what made me even more mad, It's a clear sign a companys game sucks balls if they A: dont have a forum B: have a forum and lock delete topics 24/7 that discuss bug's or bad customer service C: ignore half there customer base because there not in the usa.
America is the land of comebacks.
The Macy's department store guy failed like 6 times before Macy's took off.
Goodyear struggled for years before he discovered vulcanization.
Ozzy Ozborne made a comeback.
Failure is just a learning experience in this country.
I wish them luck.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I remember reading that Garriot had Tabula Rasa as something completely different from what it ended becoming, that NCSoft made him change pretty much everything, so I was willing to give the game a chance at getting fixed, patched and even an expansion added that would add...well...more, but as someone said, it got shut down way too fast. I'm hoping Earthrise does a better job.
garriot is the man who got me into mmorpgs, and to this day I have yet to find a game that can reproduce, or improve upon the fun and enjoyment that I got from UO (pre pub13). So what if he has made bad games, reputable car companies still make some rubbish cars, same principle.
I think you have to keep in mind the vary nature of the MMO as well as how they are branded, marketed and sold to the gaming public.
An MMO requires the player to be invested on a very personal level, it requires a dedication to learn a certain amount of the lore, the interface, the systems, the in's and out's so to speak.
When I picked up MA2; while there was a bit of the learning curve, I did not spend 2 to 3 weeks learning about the classes and testing them out to see which would fit me best over the long haul I simply got in and played and had fun.
Again, by their nature, MMO's encourage people to dive and become involved. Is it really a shocker that when they are less then stellar those same involved players take it a little seriously?
Second, when you look at how Vanguard and TR were marketed, branded and sold, once could almost make an argument that they ripped up their own sails.
In both instances we had numerous online videos, pre-showings, advanced features, blog posts, guest spots on shows, etc all spewing how their games were going to change the way we thought about that particular genre, how their game was going to start a revolution.
Brad sold the shit out of Vanguard being the grand-pappy of Fantasy, sandbox, DO WHATEVER you want MMO's. How often did we see him post about his verbose disdain for unfinished MMOs?
Listen, I don't hate these guys but do I blame people who put the blame where it belongs; which is squarly on the forehead of those that spewed out lies and BS all in the sake of trying to push out sub-par, unoriginal shiat? Absolutely not.
Important Information regarding Posting and You
"...you could tell it will fail without playing it..."
I weep for the future....
TR indeed closed too early without getting a 2nd chance imo. Personally i had bought the game when WAR came out and was keeping it to play it after i was done with WAR, but when that moment came TR had already shutdown
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
As someone else mentioned, some developers made huge promises and fell very short. Most people don't know the whys and hows of what went on to cause those failures, so it doesn't really factore into their views.
Personally I think richard garriot was in a no win situation when someone forced tabula rasa to change from a swords/elves fantasy game into a space alien shooter. He has a long a successful past in mmos, but I don't think his passion is in gaming anymore.
Brad came really close to making a great game, but he lacks the ability to successfully run a company or project all by himself. I would really like to see him get another chance to make a game with another studio. Brad should never be put in a position with so much control again. Let him create a game and shape its direction, but someone else needs to watch the money, time tables and keep goals realistic.
Good points. I feel the same about Dave Allen. The man is very talented in the creative sense, I've loved his visions for his last two games. But while he is well intentioned, he needs someone else to handle the business, personnel and technical sides. Then of course there are people like Derek Smart, David Bowman and John Smedly... Names that will live on in infamy in the minds of gamers the world wide.
Fine - as long as I'm not paying for their education.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I am a geek, a nerd, an otaku or what have you. So growing up, my tatooed working class father and older brother with their love of football (soccer) had me scratching my head at times. Especially when dragged to football matches with all the shouting and screaming or, when older, post-match beer drinking sessions. OMG, the passion (and venom) they and their mates had for this or that team, or manager or former manager, or this or that player...and the arguments! Sometimes people got their noses broken in those post-match bars, which is relatively tame in the parts of Scotland I grew up in lol.
I think mmorpgs have become the geek equivalent. I kinda like it.
Regards
Melmoth
In some parts of the US they argue about automobile brands, Ford vrs Chevy. People have died over this argument when alcohol was involved.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
This
(great OP)
It's always hard to tell how much aperson really made his mark on a game, because it's often a group effort. Where did the brilliance come from, was it the group, the interaction between the people, or was it truly one or two in the group that made it work? Look at sports, when you take for example a soccer top scorer who had an amazing season, it doesn't always mean he'll do as well when dropping him into AC Milan or Barcelona. Games are a team effort as well these days.
Despite that, I think the people that were in the teams that developed Ultima Online and Everquest did an amazing job. They did so many things right from the start while they were still only pioneers into a fully new area. And before Ultima Online, Richard Garriot stood at the base of the very successful Ultima series that came before it.
But you're only as good as your latest successes. That applies to a Garriot, or a Molyneux who made the truly awesome game classics as Populous and Dungeon Keeper but was/is scorned for his later work. It applies to basketball players and actors and actresses: your latests successes and fails will be remembered the most vividly.
And human nature is that people will remember your fails longer than your successes.
And if - justified or not - your name becomes tied very closely to a game or MMO, more so than that of the others who're part of the team, then you also fall or rise with the fail or success of the game.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."