Starcraft 2 is almost identical to the original. This is a good and bad thing. It brings back the good memories of the first one buts lacks originality. If you loved the first Starcraft then you'll love this one. Just don't expect there to be many differences.
The thing is, Starcraft is still unsurpassed in the category of RTS's with quick visceral action, it's got more micromanagement and better balance than almost anything out there imo.
It's freaking hard to really improve on that.
Balance was amazing for the different races and units in the original. Just an incredible job in that regard. By far, the best thing about the game.
You know something? I cannot believe they didn't come out with a fourth race. That is a huge disappointment to me.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Basicly, before WoW came out pretty much all Blizzard games had a crap factor of about 2 or so. Then WoW came out and it's crap factor was off the scale.... so I'm looking for a crap factor of 4 or better for this game. I'm not holding my breath though.
have watched a lot of replays of sc2 and chokes and such are still important. it's not like all units can simply bypass terrain all the time. apart from flying units it's only reapers, colossus and stalkers that bypass terrain (and stalkers need someone to spot the high ground if they want to go there) - so very few units have that option. nydus worms can be used, but this can be countered by the opposing player. protoss could already teleport in sc1 with the arbiter (now they use warp prism).
high ground advantage isnt as powerful anymore - they probably thought it was too good in sc1.
i don't know if a puzzle is a game - some game's genres are "puzzle", so i suppose in a way it can be. the problem with a puzzle is that once it's solved you have no game left unless something else is going on. a game like starcraft 2 is never "solved"
The thing is, Starcraft is still unsurpassed in the category of RTS's with quick visceral action, it's got more micromanagement and better balance than almost anything out there imo.
It's freaking hard to really improve on that.
Balance was amazing for the different races and units in the original. Just an incredible job in that regard. By far, the best thing about the game.
You know something? I cannot believe they didn't come out with a fourth race. That is a huge disappointment to me.
i was expecting a 4th race as well, but i think perhaps they didn't feel war3 was as balanced as starcraft was because they added a 4th. dunno really, only really good explanation i can accept.
The forth race was heavily hinted at in a few of the Brood War side missions. Though as it seems it never materialized. SC appealed though its variety of races and units. The map editor was/is a huge plus. Which is a major selling point for SC 2 for me, seeing the layer of customization they are giving modders, and some of the vids makes it look simply awesome.
Granted I have no play experince with SC2 but some of the very irriating moments that I have remembered from SC 1 I hoped are removed. For instance units getting split from the group cuase their way was blocked and either A - go humping some wall, or B- Take the realllly long way around only to be picked off. Another one was the annoying grouping up that they did making them oh so easy targets for AoE effects. I dont know how many fing battle crusiers I lost due to the Computers oh so quick reactions on using Psi Storm. And lastly the whole building heavy protoss and Terran's for needed upgrades or to unlock a unit.
I think others in this thread have pretty much summed it up. Gamplaywise, Starcraft 2 doesn't offer me anything that I'm not already getting from the original Starcraft. In fact, if Blizzard was really smart, they'd go the Quake Live route with Starcraft rather than releasing a sequel. Or release this game as a remake/re-imagining of the original with prettier graphics.
I also have to agree with everyone else here that resource gathering is make work in these games.
You're not agreeing with me. Controlling and attacking worker units is a valid part of strategy, that games with automatic collection don't have.
Total Annihilation and C&C had it right in this regard. You should still fight over resources on the map, but actually gathering resources should be almost automatic. Both of these changes to the RTS genre occured within the first year after the release of Starcraft. It's sad that Blizzard was unable to integrate these changes into SC2 and give use more killing with less drilling.
More killing with less thinking.
Gotta agree with Doubter here. Having to protect your workers adds a ton of strategy and tactical thinking to the game. It gives you the option of starving an opponent rather than just using overwhelming force.
I think neither one of you have played any RTS other than Starcraft then.
In both C&C and Total Annihilation it was possible to attack and even steal your opponent's resources. In Total Annihilation you could destroy your opponents metal extractors and build you own as well as salvage the scrap off of the battlefield. In C&C you could attack the harvesters or the refineries as well as send engineers in to take over refinveries and power plants. There were several different ways to cleverly shut your oppenent down and vice versa.
Now compare that to something like Age of Empires 2 where you had to ridgedly micro manage your workers and pay extra careful attention to your ratio of workers to fighters. The result was that 80% of your units would be workers that you would have to micro constently. To this day I can still hear that fallow field noise that would always show up in the middle of a major military action, thus forcing me to either let food resources dwindle or hotkey to the fields and order the worker to replant. That got changed in the expansion, but you get my point. Resource management is integral to the strategy genre. tedious make-work is not.
One of the best thing about SC2 is that it reminds you of the same game we played 10 years ago but with some new twists now and ofcourse much better graphics. Why fix it if it isn't broken you know ? Already sadly people are hacking in beta. I went up against this guy who had zerg disappearing and reappearing. Blizzard needs to crack down hard on the cheaters big time.
In the SC2 beta you can create a game and just put in the computer AI as the opposition. The computer AI is set to very easy, and the game speed is very slow. This allows you to practice using units and making buildings before you go against people. There is also a help menu that lists all the units and all the tec trees.
im a beta tester also and think that they should have some kind of tutorial level first so u know what the units are, etc...
I tend to agree, or at least be able to play an off-line skirmish map to get the feel for it.
There is an offline skirmish mode in beta where u can play against easy AI. And in the full game there are "challenge maps" designed to teach a player how to play mutliplayer - defend agaisnt a rush - counter units - economy - tech builds etc.
Blizzard fanboys are reaching hights of apple fanboys, presenting lack of features as feature itself and getting high scores for it, is ... depresing ...
Blizzard fanboys are reaching hights of apple fanboys, presenting lack of features as feature itself and getting high scores for it, is ... depresing ...
what features are missing? other then LAN that would mostly be used by pirates?
Originally posted by MMO_Doubter Originally posted by Fdzzaigl The thing is, Starcraft is still unsurpassed in the category of RTS's with quick visceral action, it's got more micromanagement and better balance than almost anything out there imo. It's freaking hard to really improve on that.
Balance was amazing for the different races and units in the original. Just an incredible job in that regard. By far, the best thing about the game. You know something? I cannot believe they didn't come out with a fourth race. That is a huge disappointment to me. First you praise the balance of SC1 then complain that SC2 doesnt have a new race.
What?!
A 4th race would ruin the incredible and extremely delicate balance achieved in SC1. The unrivaled balance of SC1 is what set it apart from its competitors and is the reason it is still played heavily today more than 10 years later and you would have them throw all that away?
SC2 got boring for me .... although that might be just because they only allow 1v1's, 2v2's and 4 player FFA .... will be nice once they let us test 3v3, 4v4 and get to experience some player made maps.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
SC2 got boring for me .... although that might be just because they only allow 1v1's, 2v2's and 4 player FFA .... will be nice once they let us test 3v3, 4v4 and get to experience some player made maps.
They are opening up 3v3 and 4v4 in a week or two. The beta is all about balane testing that is why there is only easy AI and no 3v3 or 4v4.
The map editor was released a few weeks ago and there are some fantasic mods already out, you just cannot publish them on bnet 2.0 yet.
Here are some fo my fav mods - shows the power of the editor.
Not my cup of tea. Never found much interest in rts besides the first few I played when it was new to me.
Still, glad the damn thing is finally coming out for those I know that have been pining for this game for years. I know they're going to have a blast with it.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
SC2 got boring for me .... although that might be just because they only allow 1v1's, 2v2's and 4 player FFA .... will be nice once they let us test 3v3, 4v4 and get to experience some player made maps.
They are opening up 3v3 and 4v4 in a week or two. The beta is all about balane testing that is why there is only easy AI and no 3v3 or 4v4.
The map editor was released a few weeks ago and there are some fantasic mods already out, you just cannot publish them on bnet 2.0 yet.
Here are some fo my fav mods - shows the power of the editor.
custom games like those is what kept me playing WC3 and SC1 for so long. Honestly cant wait for custom games and 3v3's and 4v4's to be allowed on the game.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
basically Blizzard HAS to release SCII the way they are now... SC has turned into such a big e-sport game that any attempt at ruining that with Heroes, No Base Build, No Gathering or whatever would make the game flop...
That aside I HATE the new generation of No Base Buil/No Resource RTS games... CoH was very good I'll agree on that... did the whole squad strategy thing very well... Supreme Commander on the other hand... that's just build factories - pump tanks - upgrade - pump experimentals - raise shields - get arty - roll the dice to see who wins...
Without Micro Management RTS games just turn into wobbley. unit pumping goo.... the new C&C anyone? just horrible...
In some cases a remake IS better than a sequel... StarCraft is such a case... others would be: DAoC and Planetside
and to all those who say Blizzard has lost their creativity... what about the CoD franchise? none of the CoD fanbois ever realised they bought the same game with expansion pack grade updates 6 times !
maybe Blizzard just thinks "why fix what isn't broken?" both gameplay and sales wise...
<S.T.E.A.L.T.H> An Agency that kicks so much ass it has to be written in all capital letters... divided by dots! www.stealth-industries.de
I just want to add my name to the growing list voicing their concern about the distinct lack of anything substantial to make this game interesting or different from the original. I do understand that RTS games are uniquely complex to design, but this is not an excuse for what is essentially a reskinning of an old game with some new units and elements. Some of the terrain things are interesting, with the moving up cliffs as ground units, but this is extremely minor for someone that was very familiar with transport use.
I believe this is just one more example of how the people running Blizzard now are totally incapable of having decent ideas on their own, and they are simply using the ideas of other people who have now left and are making their own games (notably, Guild Wars and GW2). Blizzard now is nothing, and is continuing to ride on the mastery of others. Even WoW has become much less polished than it once was, and every new feature feels tacked on and many of them feel ridiculous. StarCraft II has nothing that was hoping for. I was just hoping for something to indicate there was something real beneath what I could see. Sadly, it is not true, and this is just the final proof for me that Blizzard will never make another good game.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Originally posted by Malevil Blizzard fanboys are reaching hights of apple fanboys, presenting lack of features as feature itself and getting high scores for it, is ... depresing ...
I just wanted to add that Apple is another corporation that lives off of some perceived notion of greatness and polish, when in fact everything they do is complete bollocks. I loathe Apple more than any other company. They are trying to ruin computing as I know it.
The only difference here is that Jobs only really ever had the one good idea, and he could not keep a lid on that, and it was stolen and done a hundred times better. He is simply a master of spin and marketing. Morons that froth at the mouth for every new shiny plastic doorstop that comes from them make me sick.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Comments
Starcraft 2 is almost identical to the original. This is a good and bad thing. It brings back the good memories of the first one buts lacks originality. If you loved the first Starcraft then you'll love this one. Just don't expect there to be many differences.
Balance was amazing for the different races and units in the original. Just an incredible job in that regard. By far, the best thing about the game.
You know something? I cannot believe they didn't come out with a fourth race. That is a huge disappointment to me.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Basicly, before WoW came out pretty much all Blizzard games had a crap factor of about 2 or so. Then WoW came out and it's crap factor was off the scale.... so I'm looking for a crap factor of 4 or better for this game. I'm not holding my breath though.
Now that is a very interesting point. I would usually consider that puzzles are not games, but I'm not sure now.
A game can be won or lost. I guess a puzzle can be lost, if you give up on it and put it away. Hmmm, interesting.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
have watched a lot of replays of sc2 and chokes and such are still important. it's not like all units can simply bypass terrain all the time. apart from flying units it's only reapers, colossus and stalkers that bypass terrain (and stalkers need someone to spot the high ground if they want to go there) - so very few units have that option. nydus worms can be used, but this can be countered by the opposing player. protoss could already teleport in sc1 with the arbiter (now they use warp prism).
high ground advantage isnt as powerful anymore - they probably thought it was too good in sc1.
i don't know if a puzzle is a game - some game's genres are "puzzle", so i suppose in a way it can be. the problem with a puzzle is that once it's solved you have no game left unless something else is going on. a game like starcraft 2 is never "solved"
i was expecting a 4th race as well, but i think perhaps they didn't feel war3 was as balanced as starcraft was because they added a 4th. dunno really, only really good explanation i can accept.
The forth race was heavily hinted at in a few of the Brood War side missions. Though as it seems it never materialized. SC appealed though its variety of races and units. The map editor was/is a huge plus. Which is a major selling point for SC 2 for me, seeing the layer of customization they are giving modders, and some of the vids makes it look simply awesome.
Granted I have no play experince with SC2 but some of the very irriating moments that I have remembered from SC 1 I hoped are removed. For instance units getting split from the group cuase their way was blocked and either A - go humping some wall, or B- Take the realllly long way around only to be picked off. Another one was the annoying grouping up that they did making them oh so easy targets for AoE effects. I dont know how many fing battle crusiers I lost due to the Computers oh so quick reactions on using Psi Storm. And lastly the whole building heavy protoss and Terran's for needed upgrades or to unlock a unit.
I think neither one of you have played any RTS other than Starcraft then.
In both C&C and Total Annihilation it was possible to attack and even steal your opponent's resources. In Total Annihilation you could destroy your opponents metal extractors and build you own as well as salvage the scrap off of the battlefield. In C&C you could attack the harvesters or the refineries as well as send engineers in to take over refinveries and power plants. There were several different ways to cleverly shut your oppenent down and vice versa.
Now compare that to something like Age of Empires 2 where you had to ridgedly micro manage your workers and pay extra careful attention to your ratio of workers to fighters. The result was that 80% of your units would be workers that you would have to micro constently. To this day I can still hear that fallow field noise that would always show up in the middle of a major military action, thus forcing me to either let food resources dwindle or hotkey to the fields and order the worker to replant. That got changed in the expansion, but you get my point. Resource management is integral to the strategy genre. tedious make-work is not.
One of the best thing about SC2 is that it reminds you of the same game we played 10 years ago but with some new twists now and ofcourse much better graphics. Why fix it if it isn't broken you know ? Already sadly people are hacking in beta. I went up against this guy who had zerg disappearing and reappearing. Blizzard needs to crack down hard on the cheaters big time.
im a beta tester also and think that they should have some kind of tutorial level first so u know what the units are, etc...
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I tend to agree, or at least be able to play an off-line skirmish map to get the feel for it.
In the SC2 beta you can create a game and just put in the computer AI as the opposition. The computer AI is set to very easy, and the game speed is very slow. This allows you to practice using units and making buildings before you go against people. There is also a help menu that lists all the units and all the tec trees.
There is an offline skirmish mode in beta where u can play against easy AI. And in the full game there are "challenge maps" designed to teach a player how to play mutliplayer - defend agaisnt a rush - counter units - economy - tech builds etc.
Blizzard fanboys are reaching hights of apple fanboys, presenting lack of features as feature itself and getting high scores for it, is ... depresing ...
beta only has multiplayer potion. the full game has a long single player campaign that introduces you to the game.
what features are missing? other then LAN that would mostly be used by pirates?
You know something? I cannot believe they didn't come out with a fourth race. That is a huge disappointment to me.
First you praise the balance of SC1 then complain that SC2 doesnt have a new race.
What?!
A 4th race would ruin the incredible and extremely delicate balance achieved in SC1.
The unrivaled balance of SC1 is what set it apart from its competitors and is the reason it is still played heavily today more than 10 years later and you would have them throw all that away?
SC2 got boring for me .... although that might be just because they only allow 1v1's, 2v2's and 4 player FFA .... will be nice once they let us test 3v3, 4v4 and get to experience some player made maps.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
They are opening up 3v3 and 4v4 in a week or two. The beta is all about balane testing that is why there is only easy AI and no 3v3 or 4v4.
The map editor was released a few weeks ago and there are some fantasic mods already out, you just cannot publish them on bnet 2.0 yet.
Here are some fo my fav mods - shows the power of the editor.
RPG - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hny-oS-mo_Q&playnext_from=TL&videos=tLb7pKpW7d8
Mario Kart - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFbFCTziw28
Tetris - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dMVFuIb8zk&playnext_from=TL&videos=TkJpE40W5NE&feature=sub
action/shooter - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3dNQbYWZ80&feature=player_embedded
Not my cup of tea. Never found much interest in rts besides the first few I played when it was new to me.
Still, glad the damn thing is finally coming out for those I know that have been pining for this game for years. I know they're going to have a blast with it.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
custom games like those is what kept me playing WC3 and SC1 for so long. Honestly cant wait for custom games and 3v3's and 4v4's to be allowed on the game.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
basically Blizzard HAS to release SCII the way they are now... SC has turned into such a big e-sport game that any attempt at ruining that with Heroes, No Base Build, No Gathering or whatever would make the game flop...
That aside I HATE the new generation of No Base Buil/No Resource RTS games... CoH was very good I'll agree on that... did the whole squad strategy thing very well... Supreme Commander on the other hand... that's just build factories - pump tanks - upgrade - pump experimentals - raise shields - get arty - roll the dice to see who wins...
Without Micro Management RTS games just turn into wobbley. unit pumping goo.... the new C&C anyone? just horrible...
In some cases a remake IS better than a sequel... StarCraft is such a case... others would be: DAoC and Planetside
and to all those who say Blizzard has lost their creativity... what about the CoD franchise? none of the CoD fanbois ever realised they bought the same game with expansion pack grade updates 6 times !
maybe Blizzard just thinks "why fix what isn't broken?" both gameplay and sales wise...
<S.T.E.A.L.T.H>
An Agency that kicks so much ass it has to be written in all capital letters... divided by dots!
www.stealth-industries.de
I just want to add my name to the growing list voicing their concern about the distinct lack of anything substantial to make this game interesting or different from the original. I do understand that RTS games are uniquely complex to design, but this is not an excuse for what is essentially a reskinning of an old game with some new units and elements. Some of the terrain things are interesting, with the moving up cliffs as ground units, but this is extremely minor for someone that was very familiar with transport use.
I believe this is just one more example of how the people running Blizzard now are totally incapable of having decent ideas on their own, and they are simply using the ideas of other people who have now left and are making their own games (notably, Guild Wars and GW2). Blizzard now is nothing, and is continuing to ride on the mastery of others. Even WoW has become much less polished than it once was, and every new feature feels tacked on and many of them feel ridiculous. StarCraft II has nothing that was hoping for. I was just hoping for something to indicate there was something real beneath what I could see. Sadly, it is not true, and this is just the final proof for me that Blizzard will never make another good game.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
I just wanted to add that Apple is another corporation that lives off of some perceived notion of greatness and polish, when in fact everything they do is complete bollocks. I loathe Apple more than any other company. They are trying to ruin computing as I know it.
The only difference here is that Jobs only really ever had the one good idea, and he could not keep a lid on that, and it was stolen and done a hundred times better. He is simply a master of spin and marketing. Morons that froth at the mouth for every new shiny plastic doorstop that comes from them make me sick.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Starcraft II=Starcraft I + some nice graphics... Which is what makes it good and bad.