why are there no tactics games

gaki · March 2005

im talking about mmorpgs that have battle systems that are like Final Fantasy Tactics, Front Mission series, Disgaea style grid based tactics, that would rock! especially if it was done with nice graphics and such, they could work it pretty much as the single player games exept that of course there are towns and stuff and the battles would work like a random encounter type thing while traveling in fight zones but of course being a tactics system the encounter rate would have to be low (or have the ability to put yourself into a mode where your encounter rate is higher or lower that way you can avoid as many fights as possible while traveling or get into many fights for lvling purposes)

the way it could work is that you would have your avatar char (the one thats displayed and fully customized when you start the game) and the other people in your pt would be hired fighters/mages whatever and if one dies he/she would be gone forever and you would have to go hire another one.

it would also support PvP where you could get into long engaged battles against a friend and his team vs yours, it would rock.

oh well, just an idea. Maybe thats what front mission online will be like but i highly doubt it.

Anofalye · March 2005

I think you are taking the wrong approach.

Tactics and strategies games have proven to interest a much smaller market, which is not bad or good, but it mean the devs need to take a different approach.

Tactics and strategies games, both real time and Game based turn, would be an extremely nice addition as optional mini games inside bigger games, with cards games and gems17. Inside a MMORPG, a mini game can have ranking and access to lot of tools it would not outside, the mini games could be inherent to a MMORPG or part of an expension.

And dont you even dare think a mini game need to be simple like gems in EQ. It can be as complex or as simple as you want. Yes, some peoples would play the MMORPG for the mini game alone. SoE already have a pass for many MMORPGs, the next natural evolution is to broaden the services offered, which Sony at large is always trying to do.

It is more a question of WHEN then a question of IF. No idea of the final form, part of a MMORPG or a parallel game, whatever, it will come, eventually. I am surprise Lords of Everquest is not offered with the SoE pass, they prolly just have to much stuff going on atm. Can there be a special server affected by some mini games? Most certainly.

Necian · March 2005

It would be an interesting idea to have games like this, but it's a little difficult with the way most MMOs are set up. One player gets one in-game character, so you can't exactly be in charge of anyone but yourself.

However, it could be interesting to give it a shot, when you think about it. Maybe we stay with the one character/person and add in a strategic battle system like from FF Tactics (the only tactical RPG I've played). You could have one person in command of regiments or looking over the whole battle and issuing orders (and everyone else could choose to obey or disobey them ^_^) and the tide of battle would flow from there. This would be especially interesting to try in a game that's completely PvP based, and would end up being like a real life chess game of sorts, where the mind and the pieces aren't necessarily connected.

Other than that, there have been games that require some sort of tactics. I think Planetscape, though I never played it, was some what like this, where you are part of an army and you fight in different locations. But nothing, to my knowledge, that has the combat system that you're thinking of.

gaki · March 2005

it really wouldnt be that difficult it would be very similiar to the way single player games work only with that its online and managing soldiers wouldnt be hard either, when you hire them you choose their class and stuff and they level up with you but you dont get to customize them like yourself and there skills pool would be less than what your main char would (IE if your main char was say a Monk at a higher lvl he would learn chakra, whereas the soldier monk would never get that ability)

also there is a lot larger market for SRPGs now than you think. I believe i game of this kind would sell well if dont correctly

Hyoukan · March 2005

I really doubt that would appeal to many people, now-a-days people find the old "attack and get a sandwhich" style combat unacceptable, I think turn based 1 attack at a time that slow would be worse. On the other hand they could find a completly ovational way to do it, never know.

happydan20 · March 2005

I'm not sure that I've ever played any that you mentioned but I think I got the jist...

I at first agree with you, I like games like that. But when it comes to a mmorpg that i pay money for, well most of those type games have "games" that last two weeks or what have you... I could not pay to play a game that you had to start over all the time.

I play in part for a feeling of accomplishment and I would enjoy losing it all.

But if you didn't do it that way... a strategy game would only become who started first and it would be an eternal have versus the have nots.

I like the idea I just don't see the real-world application.

ianubisi · March 2005

Turn-based combat and MMOG are mutually exclusive.

Kaos_nyrb · March 2005

I don't see how Turn-based combat and mmog are exclusive.
Doesn't MxO use a Turn Based combat system?
Anyone whos ever play FF Tactics will agree that Turn based system aren't slow, but there not so fast that it prevents strategizing.

I think that a game with a good turn based combat system could beat the hell outta any sandwich combat system. ::::28::

Vampir · March 2005

i think ur wrong in sense. its not that the tactics arent in the games. its that they have evolved.

think of it this way, in FF tactics all u did the enable ur stradegy was point click etc.

IN DARK AGES OF CAMELOT, u have to assembly the group, start communication, make sure u have the right player balance( healers to tanks etc), that the group leaders are competant. they also need to ask and gather approiximate positions of groups not only enemy but your own.

Now which takes more strategy??????

Vampir · March 2005

Originally posted by Kaos_nyrb

I don't see how Turn-based combat and mmog are exclusive.
Doesn't MxO use a Turn Based combat system?
Anyone whos ever play FF Tactics will agree that Turn based system aren't slow, but there not so fast that it prevents strategizing.
I think that a game with a good turn based combat system could beat the hell outta any sandwich combat system.

no MXO only feels turn based. from what i heard its initiave based. meaning the thing with the higher initiative goes when its initiative says so, like every blah blah blah seconds. this is nto turn based cus people can go at the same time with this sytem.

Anofalye · March 2005

MMO and game based turn are not per say exclusive, however, a multiplayers game and waiting for others to play their turn is indeed exclusive.

So you just need to take a road where you dont wait after the others players, so each player need it own battleground and an indirect way to help each other many turns after they indeed accomplish something, so for exemple, clearing point A help player A 5 turns after you clear it, so player A could be 5 turns ahead of you in time and not waiting on you every turn you make, and once you did clear all you could to help a particuliar player, then he can play at his own pace and so can you...this is but the first feature you need to implement in a multiplayer game based turn, the old ''heroes of Might and Magic'' way of waiting is unacceptable. Direct PvP cant be solved that way, however, indirect competitive PvP against the computer is indeed quite easy to achieve, where again clearing point A have a nasty effect on player A 5 turns after you clear it.

You may be able to lend help or opposition in the same ways, controlled by the computer or the other player, but not by you...again take turnS for a peon to walk to other player battleground.

Rasuke · March 2005

I've played a tactics style MMORPG. It was in korean, but there were quite a few english understanding people. I think it had 7 classes, and your sprite would look more badass about every 8 levels. In battle people could see you outside of it and run in w/ or w/o your permission unless you bought a battle locker (they cheap too). Anyway I played as a spearman for a while (the advantage of attacking 2 squares at once, but I got my ass beat because there were like... 8 enemies at a time in the most basic fights).

Anyway, the name was Neo Dark Saver, that much I remember. If it's still free or whatnot, or if it was cancelled I don't know, and I'm too lazy to look.

Yaezariel · March 2005

I prefer to use not a turn based combat system. It's to slow from my point of view. You have like all the time to think what your next move will be, but without that system you have to decide all your moves while doing them. It's that kind of a pressure that makes a game worth it.

Anofalye · March 2005

Originally posted by Yaezariel

I prefer to use not a turn based combat system. It's to slow from my point of view. You have like all the time to think what your next move will be, but without that system you have to decide all your moves while doing them. It's that kind of a pressure that makes a game worth it.

Many peoples think your ways. Still, many others prefer game based turn for any of those 2 reasons:

- More challenge, more thinking, more difficulty to overcome on the intellect level, less on the reflexs levels however(dont tell me in 5 seconds you can think of all the ramifications of a strategic choice like defending a bridge or the wood, taking point A or B...and so on).

- Less stress, not everyone like to be under stress when they enjoy a pastime.

In the perfect MMORPG, you should have mini games resolving around both style and that you dont need to do any in particuliar(you may have to do 1 of your liking among a list for the MMORPG purpose however).

Game based turn will always have it fans and it pro, and I am 1 of them. I would love to run a game based turn raid ''solo'' with extremely limited ressource and dependancy to another player raiding another front of the same place(so we dont per say wait on every turn the other make)...or something more complex eventually with tons of others players on other locations. REMOVE the waiting on others players turn, this is an obligation, peoples pay to play, not to wait...game based turn will have it fans, not as many as real time, granted, but still a nice reward there for the company who is bright enought to claim the prize!

(The main reason I strongly dislike raiding in current form is the waiting on others, in a game based turn, you never wait on anyone(except in screwed multiplayers versions), the computer is always waiting for your decision...) Twice the grind or less grind and more waiting, give me the grind, but dont even dare thinking I will wait, I wont. I rather save a noob then wait on anyone, I rather CR then then be told to quietly wait until they are done with whatever. Waiting = 1 less customer. Game based turn can be maded with no waiting, more easily then real time game, just need to be developped so.

gaki · March 2005

toontown's battle system is turn based and they did just fine imo-- they had like an ATB system where each player is given like 30 seconds to enter their choice command and if they let the time expire it just defualted to standard attack (at least thats how i remember it)

so that could be used and in regards to what one person posted about having to start all over all the time, i dont know where you got that from- i was just saying that soldiers (your hired forces) would die and be gone, and you would have to go hire a replacement (that would be at the same lvl of course) your main char would only temporary die and resurect at a res point like in most mmo's-- permadeath would suck, especially in a tactics style game

Anofalye · March 2005

A timer hardly resolve the problem. 30 seconds is LONG, so if a player always take the full 30 seconds, I will go nuts! A little waiting every turn is not acceptable, also, let say I want to take 2 minutes on a particuliar move, I cant, all the more to be unhappy.

Playing on different fronts, differents battlegrounds, where you can play many turns ahead or behind other players is a must IMO. I dont mind waiting a full 5 minutes sporadically, I can run to the bathroom or whatever, but waiting 20 seconds on every turn, I wont bear such mistreatment. Hehe. maybe you could have different music themes related to how many turns you can play right now, so if you want to start doing something on the side(maybe a solo mission in the same game at the same time?), you should be able to...

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