Originally posted by Pasomatt I play games for the content and gameplay, not for what other people have, or where they get it.
Those buying and selling are only ruining their own fun and those who care enough to be jealous. As to item farming, if this is reported to the propper autorities, something will usually be done by the devs and no, not banning those who pay for 30 accounts. This is a new market for people to make money in. I find it a sad market since the largest part if confronted with the real life situation (see monopoly example above) wouldn't even consider it.
Ethics in this genre have not yet been instored or are still those of single player computer games where cheating is considered a way to advance and enjoy the full product if you get stuck.
There is no "I hate IGE" that applies, that would be saying give me capitalism but only the benefits of it. It should be "I hate those cheaters", they are the ones altering the fun factor or it could be "I wish I was less jealous" for then you wouldn't care. Just don't play with them in game, boot them from your guilds. If the problem doesn't hurt you... then don't bother complaining.
ho is to say you can't get another group and go in their farming lands interfere with them, nothing they can do about it and their speed would be reduced. I tend not to move out because others are raiding an area, if I need to kill a mob I'll claim one by killing it myself, given I have the power to do so. It doesn't matter who is in the area or even what they are saying to me.
My Reason for thise post was this. I am moving into a new a house and i wanted to play my MMO which is WoW. At the momment i dont have a internet at my house so i went to this Cyber cafe place to play some. When i got their i noticed 4 kids who seem to be around 16 or so. I noticed they where playing WoW also, so i ask them what they had and stuff and they showed me. Man was i surpised two of the kids had almost full Epic gears and and the other 2 had like 2 Epics. I asked where they got it from and they said from IGE. I didnt know what IGE was at the time so i ask what its was and they said it was a place where you can buy items and gold for real money. THe two kids with most of the Epics said he got the items + gold he use to buy the other stuff for about 200 dollers. At that point i wanted to Strangle the Damn kids. Then I left to my computer and started up WoW and I kept telling my slef man this sucks im spendting 3 hours an isntance with the chance of getting nothing and these loser are getting items i can only dream of. I know this sound kinda cheese but i kinda felt like crying and the only thing i could tell my self is "At least your playing legit" over and over.
All MMO's have grinds. If you don't like to Grind then MMO's are not for you.
Very interesting thread and many good points have been brought up. I know some are sick of this topic but I find it quite interesting and I'm enjoying learning what people's feelings are on the matter.
Originally posted by pegleg ... THe two kids with most of the Epics said he got the items + gold he use to buy the other stuff for about 200 dollers. At that point i wanted to Strangle the Damn kids. Then I left to my computer and started up WoW and I kept telling my slef man this sucks im spendting 3 hours an isntance with the chance of getting nothing and these loser are getting items i can only dream of. I know this sound kinda cheese but i kinda felt like crying and the only thing i could tell my self is "At least your playing legit" over and over.
I can definitively see your POV but shouldn't you be saying to yourself "At least I'm having fun. At least I'm earning my loot.". What those guys do shouldn't matter to you. If them having paid for items and not properly leveling affects your game then I suggest the game's design is the problem.
I liked the monopoly example someone brought up earlier. In this example somebody affects the game by using RL money to buy some monopoly property. If this type of activity is allowed obviously the game is ruined. But this is a poor analogy because the game's goal is to beat other players and win the game. This is similar to an online game but is not at all the goal of MMOG. There is no single winner in a MMOG. Even if you have the highest level character and most loot that does not mean you've won the game and it's over.
So once again I suggest, if players buying items for RL negatively impacts the game then the design of the game needs to be improved. How about discussing how the design of the game can be changed?
I'll start out with one idea (possibly half assed). Many have brought up the problem of permanent campers staying in one place to get a certain special item drop. How about just making it so that once you've picked up one of these drops, it will not drop again for that same character. Therefore to keep getting that drop would require constantly getting new characters and they would have to be at a level capable of fighting the creature that drops it. I'm probably missing something but this change should not affect the regular gamer while making it useless to camp.
I'm sure some of you guys can come up with some other design ideas as well.
IGE is a disgrace to any true hardcore gamer.Not too mention they already in violation of alot of those online games ToS and policys and if they were smart they would quit advertising before one of them gaming companys gets bored and decides to sue the heck out of them for violating copyrite laws.
If there were any truth to the title of the topic we wouldnt be here would we now?The only way they could ever "kill"an mmo is to create counterfeit currency and introduce it to the gameworld.
If they did that most elite crafters would see it as more than enough credits to go around for everyone.At that point we would see inflation rise on items that are player made.
These topics are just ridiculous.They all sound like bitter casual gamers that are jealous of hardcore gamers who have the time to play to get the prestige items and massive credits.
Im a casual gamer and guess what?
I use IGE for the freedom it gives me to play and i could care less what players think of it.The credits provided are cheap enough to purchase and i am a very generous person in game as well.Ive been known to give out between 100k and 1 million at any given moment.
How am i hurting the socalled economy?If the economy was hurting in ANY given game the devs would do something about it.The developers are the ones who allow this to happen plain and simple.Stop putting ALL the blame on IGE and the players who use it and start asking why the devs allow this to continue.
Ill tell you why.
Because most devs see it as an opprotunity to make money on the side.Developers wont even address the issue.I can gaurantee you the more commercial popular games have got deals with IGE in wich IGE pays a tax to the devs.
Yeah right.They just say "we dont approve"
Thats why this has been going on for at least 5 years.They dont approve and look the other way.
Stop being so naive.Fact of the matter is ya cant screw up anything that is not real.The games are just games stop taking it so serious.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Originally posted by Puoltry If there were any truth to the title of the topic we wouldnt be here would we now?The only way they could ever "kill"an mmo is to create counterfeit currency and introduce it to the gameworld.If they did that most elite crafters would see it as more than enough credits to go around for everyone.At that point we would see inflation rise on items that are player made.These topics are just ridiculous.They all sound like bitter casual gamers that are jealous of hardcore gamers who have the time to play to get the prestige items and massive credits.Im a casual gamer and guess what?I use IGE for the freedom it gives me to play and i could care less what players think of it.The credits provided are cheap enough to purchase and i am a very generous person in game as well.Ive been known to give out between 100k and 1 million at any given moment.How am i hurting the socalled economy?If the economy was hurting in ANY given game the devs would do something about it.The developers are the ones who allow this to happen plain and simple.Stop putting ALL the blame on IGE and the players who use it and start asking why the devs allow this to continue.Ill tell you why.Because most devs see it as an opprotunity to make money on the side.Developers wont even address the issue.I can gaurantee you the more commercial popular games have got deals with IGE in wich IGE pays a tax to the devs.Yeah right.They just say "we dont approve"Thats why this has been going on for at least 5 years.They dont approve and look the other way.Stop being so naive.Fact of the matter is ya cant screw up anything that is not real.The games are just games stop taking it so serious.
That whole post was total crap and I am more stupid for reading it.
Every game that has open PvP can be ruined by Electronic Currency sales, any game where the top items can be purchased by a currency outside the games economy and can be used to kill other players is a deterant of the game.
What is so hard to understand about the concept of cheating? If you take something that is outside of the game and use it to your advantage inside the game that is cheating. The game wasn't designed so ppl could just drop 200 dollars into a 3rd party company and have whatever they want, if that was the case then they're wouldn't be and sellers because SOE, Blizzard, NCSoft and all the rest of the companies would be selling ingame currency straight from the login screen.
Except it, if you buy your a cheater, take a deep breath, its ok, maybe someday you'll be able to do something by yourself.
So you are trying to say people who take the time to post against IGE either tend to buy from IGE or support people that buy from IGE. And, when you say 'tend to' I can only assume you are trying to infer a majority. What are you basing this statement on? It's one of the craziest thing I ever heard lol.
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If they are not taking a proactive stance against players that use IGE, by refusing to group them, help them etc. Then yes they are being completely hypocritical about their stance. Fact of the matter is this, IGE would not exist If players were unwilling to buy. That is a point you cannot argue at all. If you claim to be against IGE, yet willingly conduct business, group etc with the players that Support it, you are supporting the very reason IGE exists and will continue to exist. So based off that, and the fact that the majority of players do not bother to take the time to be aware of who they call friend, yes it can be inferred that the majority of players are in fact supporting companies like IGE indirectly by supporting their customer base. Like it or lump it, fact is you cannot argue this.
IMO Buyers are to blame : no buyers= no sellers = no IGE. And those people are king of hypocrisy about this subject. Maybe Games are to blame too : "materialistic" games such EQ are farmers paradise. I wont even talk about all those asian games with their ungodly grinding. Personnaly I cant understand where's the fun in such simple grinding and time sinks opposed to the slow but rewarding Eve on line but well, another debate.
Quite honestly this is the most intelligent statement in this entire thread.
As to the rest of the post, Macros and botters Existed long before IGE, and would continue to exist even if there was no IGE, and will always be in games and used extensively by those not wishing to participate in repetitive treadmill tasks. As for macro and bot using, the majority of people using them are not using them to sell to IGE, they are using them to get their personal character advanced. I frequent the macro boards for nearly every game out there to keep a heads up on what is out, and what to look for to avoid certain things, I am well aware how large the macro community is, and I assure you it is at least 10x larger then the bots dedicated to ingame currency selling.
My Reason for thise post was this. I am moving into a new a house and i wanted to play my MMO which is WoW. At the momment i dont have a internet at my house so i went to this Cyber cafe place to play some. When i got their i noticed 4 kids who seem to be around 16 or so. I noticed they where playing WoW also, so i ask them what they had and stuff and they showed me. Man was i surpised two of the kids had almost full Epic gears and and the other 2 had like 2 Epics. I asked where they got it from and they said from IGE. I didnt know what IGE was at the time so i ask what its was and they said it was a place where you can buy items and gold for real money. THe two kids with most of the Epics said he got the items + gold he use to buy the other stuff for about 200 dollers. At that point i wanted to Strangle the Damn kids. Then I left to my computer and started up WoW and I kept telling my slef man this sucks im spendting 3 hours an isntance with the chance of getting nothing and these loser are getting items i can only dream of. I know this sound kinda cheese but i kinda felt like crying and the only thing i could tell my self is "At least your playing legit" over and over
Well quite frankly if you feel that way about it, something is wrong with you. Who cares what other players have, the question is. Are you enjoying the game? And are you satisfied with the progression you have made? If the answer is yes, then who cares what they do? Fact is they are going to get bored and quit the game long before you will as a result of they have no sense of accomplishment, They will never understand the feeling of working for an item for weeks and finally getting it. This is the ADD generation, They want everything now, have the attention span of a flea and once they get it, just like any child they are bored in a few weeks and gone. Do not waste time being jealous over someone like this.
Every game that has open PvP can be ruined by Electronic Currency sales, any game where the top items can be purchased by a currency outside the games economy and can be used to kill other players is a deterant of the game.
If the PVP system is Crap and gear dependent, you are right. However if they designed the system right to begin with where PVP was skill based as So many on this forum keep insisting that level/gear based games with pvp require skill, then ingame currency selling would not affect it. I used to play UO before they gimped it up, pre T2A, And quite frankly I did not care what weapon someone else had, fact is if they were a skilless idiot, they could have the Heavy Crossbow of L33t Uber GM killing, and I would still kick their ass because they had ZERO skill. Now if gear affects the outcome of your PVP fight, then guess what THAT PVP SYSTEM SUCKS, And furthermore requires no skill.
End point? If you do not want companies like IGE to exist, quit ranting against the company as you are doing nothing more then beating your head against the wall futiely. Target the players who use the services, Black list them, Refuse to group them, Refuse to be in the same guilds as them, ( dont feel bad about exploiting them and taking their money by making them pay far more then an item is worth though. ) If the Gamer community stood up and simply decided to stand against this type of ingame behavior then it would cut down dramatically. However rants like this against the medium are utterly useless, and those that buy the stuff are simply mocking you, because they know in game you will group them and they will in fact advance quicker because they do not have to be bothered with the trivial little things.
IGE is a casual players dream come true.Look at the IGE site and see how much AO credits go for.100 million for 30 bucks?Please man you would be a fool NOT to buy this if you intended to play longterm.
Even the ISK for EvE is pretty reasonable.
Say what you will but the ability to have x amount of credits readily available for purchase is here to stay.The hardcore elite players that have 6 to 8 hours a day to play dont need the game credits.If the developers made it easier to obtain credits in some games it would not be an issue.
It's true that IGE exists to support casual players. As a result, more hardcore gamers will not like it (at least those hardcore gamers who are not the ones who supply game currency to IGE).
The impact has to be inflationary in that it creates more players who have substantial cash, which increases demand for items and therefore keeps prices higher. Taking EVE as an example, the more players with 100 million ISK, the more demand there will be for battleships, plain and simple, and the price will either be stable/high or go even higher if there are even more players with more ISK able to support a higher price.
What IGE really does is not penalize the hardcore gamer (it has the impact more of equalizing the position of the casual gamer with the hardcore gamer), but it really penalizes the casual gamer who is not willing to get currency on IGE. They have no way to catch up, and the IGE casuals are out there in the market keeping the prices up, so the relatively poor casual gamer is left behind. Now, you could argue that they are no more behind the hardcore gamers than they otherwise would be, and that may be true, but the fact that there are many more casual players out there with substantial cash has an impact on the market and thus overall it makes the situation worse for the non-IGE casual players. In circumstances like these, the casual players will leave (as has happened in Lineage 2, for example).
I do not think it is possible to stop it, however. If it were not IGE, it would be eBay or other sites. Some games like Second Life have realized this and specifically allow players to use out of game money to purchase in game currency (and before you say it's not competitive, it sure is when it comes to purchasing land, which can be quite expensive in Second Life). I suspect that if the gaming companies had an easy time stopping it they would try harder to do so. But since it is hard to stop, and since it pleases the casual segment of the player base and keeps them playing the game (and paying), it's not surprising that so little has been and is being done to stop operations like IGE.
End point? If you do not want companies like IGE to exist, quit ranting against the company as you are doing nothing more then beating your head against the wall futiely. Target the players who use the services, Black list them, Refuse to group them, Refuse to be in the same guilds as them, ( dont feel bad about exploiting them and taking their money by making them pay far more then an item is worth though. ) If the Gamer community stood up and simply decided to stand against this type of ingame behavior then it would cut down dramatically. However rants like this against the medium are utterly useless, and those that buy the stuff are simply mocking you, because they know in game you will group them and they will in fact advance quicker because they do not have to be bothered with the trivial little things.
cheers, this is the only way to stop them : tell them quite simply, "no thanks I don't play with cheaters"
Fact of the matter is that it isn't the company that is taking advantage of players buying things that is in the wrong. Their company ethics are questionable but so are Microsoft's company ethics to name a big fish. Just try and get these no cheating morals in the little kids' head when it comes to computer gaming, learn them the values of the board games we play as values to use in an on line game.
If they are not taking a proactive stance against players that use IGE, by refusing to group them, help them etc. Then yes they are being completely hypocritical about their stance. Fact of the matter is this, IGE would not exist If players were unwilling to buy. That is a point you cannot argue at all. If you claim to be against IGE, yet willingly conduct business, group etc with the players that Support it, you are supporting the very reason IGE exists and will continue to exist. So based off that, and the fact that the majority of players do not bother to take the time to be aware of who they call friend, yes it can be inferred that the majority of players are in fact supporting companies like IGE indirectly by supporting their customer base. Like it or lump it, fact is you cannot argue this.
How are people supposed to know where others got their items? Most people who use IGE are too ashamed to admit to it ingame because they know many people will do exactly what you say they should. I don't consider anyone a hypocrit for grouping with people when they have no idea where their kit came from. If any IGE users became apparent in our clan they would be gone, I would make sure of it as I consider IGE users cheats. The paragraph you typed above is totally ridiculous and laughable.
Now if gear affects the outcome of your PVP fight, then guess what THAT PVP SYSTEM SUCKS, And furthermore requires no skill.
A PvP system may be crap in your opinion but it doesn't make it any more right to ruin it with out of game advantages.
Target the players who use the services, Black list them, Refuse to group them, Refuse to be in the same guilds as them, ( dont feel bad about exploiting them and taking their money by making them pay far more then an item is worth though. ) If the Gamer community stood up and simply decided to stand against this type of ingame behavior then it would cut down dramatically. However rants like this against the medium are utterly useless, and those that buy the stuff are simply mocking you, because they know in game you will group them and they will in fact advance quicker because they do not have to be bothered with the trivial little things.
To try and lay the responsibility for dealing with this on players who play legitimately is another totally ridiculous thing to suggest. I wouldn't knowingly group with a hacker/cheat/IGE user but the fact is they look the same as any other player and do not readily own up to their cheating ways. This method you suggest would be completely inneffective.
According to Dekoth: As legit players, it is our fault that cheats are allowed to run rampant in games. We are supposed to be the ones that take responsibility for policing their acts and stopping it. We are also not allowed to complain about it. We are just a bunch of hypocrits. Of course it isn't the buyers he should be directing his posts at and it's not IGE that has to share any blame, no these people who are actually responsible are for some reason protected by Dekoth. I can only laugh at his twisted logic and wonder at his motives.
1.IGE exists because developers dont do a damn thing about it.
2.Blame the players who use IGE all you want but the developers need to police the games for this behaviour not the players.They write the code and develop the game.If they really WANTED to they could put a stop to this.
3.The devs KNOW when large amounts of currency are being exchanged at any given time.Im not talking 1 million in credits either more like 50 to 100 million.ever wonder why they dont do anything about it?
4.Developers of popular mmo's and IGE are in bed together on this to believe otherwise is naive.The sooner you accept this the happier you will be.
You want this to stop quit bitchin about it to the general public and let the developers know by NOT playing games where it is suspect.
The biggest vote you have is your wallet.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Originally posted by Puoltry Bottom line is this: 1.IGE exists because developers dont do a damn thing about it. 2.Blame the players who use IGE all you want but the developers need to police the games for this behaviour not the players.They write the code and develop the game.If they really WANTED to they could put a stop to this. 3.The devs KNOW when large amounts of currency are being exchanged at any given time.Im not talking 1 million in credits either more like 50 to 100 million.ever wonder why they dont do anything about it? 4.Developers of popular mmo's and IGE are in bed together on this to believe otherwise is naive.The sooner you accept this the happier you will be.
You want this to stop quit bitchin about it to the general public and let the developers know by NOT playing games where it is suspect. The biggest vote you have is your wallet.
All pure speculation. Maybe you can name the games you talk about and offer any kind of evidence other than you say it is so.
IGE and the buinsess like them ruin and sometime mess up the game. The point of the games is to start with little to no money a and crapy weapon and maybe armor and work your way up to lots of money, a nice weapon and armor. I hate when people cheat in the game. Its alright if you do it in a offline games,but if you do it online it just ruins the games.
Originally posted by Eraserhead If they are not taking a proactive stance against players that use IGE, by refusing to group them, help them etc. Then yes they are being completely hypocritical about their stance. Fact of the matter is this, IGE would not exist If players were unwilling to buy. That is a point you cannot argue at all. If you claim to be against IGE, yet willingly conduct business, group etc with the players that Support it, you are supporting the very reason IGE exists and will continue to exist. So based off that, and the fact that the majority of players do not bother to take the time to be aware of who they call friend, yes it can be inferred that the majority of players are in fact supporting companies like IGE indirectly by supporting their customer base. Like it or lump it, fact is you cannot argue this. How are people supposed to know where others got their items? Most people who use IGE are too ashamed to admit to it ingame because they know many people will do exactly what you say they should. I don't consider anyone a hypocrit for grouping with people when they have no idea where their kit came from. If any IGE users became apparent in our clan they would be gone, I would make sure of it as I consider IGE users cheats. The paragraph you typed above is totally ridiculous and laughable.Now if gear affects the outcome of your PVP fight, then guess what THAT PVP SYSTEM SUCKS, And furthermore requires no skill. A PvP system may be crap in your opinion but it doesn't make it any more right to ruin it with out of game advantages. Target the players who use the services, Black list them, Refuse to group them, Refuse to be in the same guilds as them, ( dont feel bad about exploiting them and taking their money by making them pay far more then an item is worth though. ) If the Gamer community stood up and simply decided to stand against this type of ingame behavior then it would cut down dramatically. However rants like this against the medium are utterly useless, and those that buy the stuff are simply mocking you, because they know in game you will group them and they will in fact advance quicker because they do not have to be bothered with the trivial little things. To try and lay the responsibility for dealing with this on players who play legitimately is another totally ridiculous thing to suggest. I wouldn't knowingly group with a hacker/cheat/IGE user but the fact is they look the same as any other player and do not readily own up to their cheating ways. This method you suggest would be completely inneffective. According to Dekoth: As legit players, it is our fault that cheats are allowed to run rampant in games. We are supposed to be the ones that take responsibility for policing their acts and stopping it. We are also not allowed to complain about it. We are just a bunch of hypocrits. Of course it isn't the buyers he should be directing his posts at and it's not IGE that has to share any blame, no these people who are actually responsible are for some reason protected by Dekoth. I can only laugh at his twisted logic and wonder at his motives.
Good job reading between the lines, other then the fact that your interpertation of what I said is wrong. I stated exactly what I meant and left no room for interpertation, anything you are inferring a my meaning outside what I typed is simply you trying to justify your hate toward a company that only exists because there is a part of the player base demanding it.
I never said we as legit players are responsible to track down these players and stop them, I am stating that if you feel so strongly that IGE is detrimentally affecting your playing experience then you had better have just an equal stance against the players that utilize it. My twisted logic? thats amusing thus far you have managed to try and twist everything I have said. If you read my post's my logic is pretty straight foward and to the point it is hardly twisted. As for IGE, Personally I do not care about them, honestly they do nothing that impacts my game play in any manner at all. As for players that utilize it and how to pick them out? Its pretty easy actually, if you have trouble figuring out who they are, then you are rather dense. Any player that has gear or money that is well beyond their level and they cannot give a good explaination as to how they got it, good chance they bought it. Any player that has gear and money beyond their level is going to have to have certain variables attached to getting that. Either they are a crafter, and make alot of money crafting, which would inferr they have at least 1 high skill in crafting. They are a trader, and spend their time buying low selling high, this is pretty easy to recognize as they will have a fairly good knowledge of the market. Or they spent tons of time farming creatures, which again fairly easy to figure out, or they bought it. Honestly its not hard to tell someone who Buys their items and gear from someone who did not.
Now as to where you came up to the idea of my posts are not directed at the buyers, where you pulled that statement out of I wont ask, But if you actually read my post, instead of assuming what I said you will note I am Trying to get people to focus more on the buyers, and less on the medium through which they bought. I find it absurd that people hate IGE when the fact is they are simply a more public face of a number of other mediums that people buy through. Ill name some of them; Yantis, Ebay, Player Auctions, the individual players that sell through these mediums. Yet I do not see post's popping up Ranting about Ebay, I do not see post's popping up ranting about player auctions, All i see is IGE this, IGE that...This whole virtual property selling thing Actually started on Ebay in the first place. I am not laying responsibility on the legitimate players to deal with this, I am a fully legitimate player and quite frankly as I have stated numerous times I do not give a flaming rats ass about those who buy and sell. However I will not sit back and let people Ignorantly Rant against a company, unless they are just as willing to take up the cause and target the root of the problem.
My stance is Simple, You want to Rant against IGE? then you better plan on playing your game in a manner that you actively Do not Support them In any manner. Unless you are willing to make a stand Against All of it, you are better off sitting back and shutting up because you only make yourself look like a ignorant hypocrite. simple analogy, You dont cut the leaves off a weed to kill it, it will continue to grow back, you kill its roots and the rest will die. IGE is a leaf on a tree of a problem, you want to stop IGE? going after them will accomplish nothing, you go after the root.
The only evidence you really need is the lack of policing by developers.The very act of NOT doing anything about it is evidence enough for me.
You want proof that this is done?Go look at the IGE website and the games they provide currency for.
To say that the developers are in the dark on this issue is just silly the IGE website can be accessed by anyone.They advertise on this site and a few devs themselves are known to make postings on this site as well.
I cant prove this goes on but it cant be disproved either.The EULA's may say that this is against game policy but its never enforced.If it was we wouldnt be addressing this topic.It has become such a lucrative market that developers more than likely jump on board.
Think about it,they get the consumer to pay for an account,IGE pays for an account maybe more than one,and the devs get a "tax" from IGE for every sale of ingame currency.
If ANYONE is to blame for this its the developers.They make the game they market the game and allow people to play on company owned servers.
If they truly wanted to put a stop to this they would have done so 3 to 5 years ago when the subculture for this popped up.
The only way this will EVER stop is to have a mmo with no currency or items.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Originally posted by Puoltry The only evidence you really need is the lack of policing by developers.The very act of NOT doing anything about it is evidence enough for me. You want proof that this is done?Go look at the IGE website and the games they provide currency for. To say that the developers are in the dark on this issue is just silly the IGE website can be accessed by anyone.They advertise on this site and a few devs themselves are known to make postings on this site as well. I cant prove this goes on but it cant be disproved either.The EULA's may say that this is against game policy but its never enforced.If it was we wouldnt be addressing this topic.It has become such a lucrative market that developers more than likely jump on board. Think about it,they get the consumer to pay for an account,IGE pays for an account maybe more than one,and the devs get a "tax" from IGE for every sale of ingame currency. If ANYONE is to blame for this its the developers.They make the game they market the game and allow people to play on company owned servers. If they truly wanted to put a stop to this they would have done so 3 to 5 years ago when the subculture for this popped up. The only way this will EVER stop is to have a mmo with no currency or items.
All that just reads like a big conspiracy that theoretically could be true but probably isn't. Name names, maybe L2 or WoW? Personally I doubt it. I believe that they are against it. I do agree with you that it is developers who need to be taking more action but their powers are limited. Ultimately they need to try and put IGE and co. out of business through the courts which is expensive. Then we will be left with a smaller problem of individual ebayers, but nothing is perfect.
Originally posted by Puoltry Bottom line is this: 1.IGE exists because developers dont do a damn thing about it. 2.Blame the players who use IGE all you want but the developers need to police the games for this behaviour not the players.They write the code and develop the game.If they really WANTED to they could put a stop to this. 3.The devs KNOW when large amounts of currency are being exchanged at any given time.Im not talking 1 million in credits either more like 50 to 100 million.ever wonder why they dont do anything about it? 4.Developers of popular mmo's and IGE are in bed together on this to believe otherwise is naive.The sooner you accept this the happier you will be.
You want this to stop quit bitchin about it to the general public and let the developers know by NOT playing games where it is suspect. The biggest vote you have is your wallet.
This post is worth it's weight in sh*t. Looks like you did not even bother to grab some info about the subject.
1) Just reminder : This activity (real money market) is against the EULAs of the games. Line of defense for sellers : they dont sell virtual property, they are selling their in game time... There were some attempts to stop that. Too bad I dont have sources. SOE/Mythic/Blizzard asked Ebay to remove auctions. Why no lawsuit : dunno. Maybe because legaly it's uncertain who would win. Only lawsuit i'm aware of : "case of Blacksnow vs. Mythic, the onus would have been on Blacksnow to prove to the court this concept of "Virtual Property" and have it stand up umder appeal. Mythic had and continues to have existing law on their side." I heard recently about a gathering of game editors that would engage legal action, maybe just a rumor.
2) Games are already "policed". Enough ? i dont know. Sellers not smart enough are easy to track and have they account inspected and banned. Occasional sellers for real cash are hard to track. Pro sellers have multi account, multi ip etc (I dont have the details) and are harder to track. Looks like having a GM poping out of nowhere to tell you that you were exploiting the game never happened to you ? happened to me (EQ, about some pathing bug i was not aware of). Having more people monitoring player records would mean higher cost and higher monthly fee. When I was guide (EQ volunteer mini gm) I saw that game admin could track everything was happening in the game, but it would take them much time considering the amount of informations.
3) Cheaters exist for every games, devs know that. Reminds me Blizzard who had their Diablo game ruined (on battlenet). Diablo 2 is almost gone for them too. You must know that when your game gets patched, sometime those "various fixes" concern some game exploits, item/money dupe etc. What those "bound" item that appeared with EQ and WoW ? No Drop/Lore items (eq/daoc none tradable/Unique stuff) ? About Daoc, the way equipment is relative to your level is also a nice way to prevent twinking and item market for lowbies. Devs are doing things about it. Maybe they could do more ? But as a legit player I hate to think that because of the real money market devs are using hard rules that otherwise could have made my player's life easier.
4) For god sake give your sources if you have some hot informations. I doubt SOE/EA/BLIZZARD/NCSOFT... are friends with IGE and the like. (maybe SOE, they are so greedy and love so much pizza). But who knows...
Blizzard, they made a fast leveling, easy farming/trade skill stuff game : makes IGE business more hard for this game. Not talking about their cheaters paranoia (remember that battlenet story ?). At least I know that there's ware between Sigil games and IGE. IGE also wanted to buy some sites (spoilers, item/mobs database, general) some refused, I know of allakazam and mmorpg.com who were asked and refused (at least, it's what they officialy said). Same for tons of fan sites.
About casual gamers, see Guildwars, next ncsoft game : fast and easy gaming, stuffing, pvp. Imho I think this is just the first mmog of this kind, more should follow. Maybe real money buyers will move to these game, lowering demand for more hard core games.
if you guys have more links, it would be nice to post them
Selling World of Warcraft In-Game Content for Real Money - Block on 12/10/04 It has come to our attention that certain individuals are selling Blizzard's in-game property for cash on auction sites such as eBay and on personal websites. The World of Warcraft Terms of Use clearly state that all of the content in World of Warcraft is the property of Blizzard, and Blizzard does not allow "in game" items to be sold for real money. Accordingly, Blizzard Entertainment will take any and all actions necessary to stop this behavior. Not only do we believe that it is illegal, but it also has the potential to damage the game economy and overall experience for the many thousands of others who play World of Warcraft for fun. In order to promote a fun and fair environment for all our customers, we are actively investigating those individuals who engage in this inappropriate activity and reserve the right to take legal action against these individuals to protect World of Warcraft for all those who "play by the rules." If you are found to be selling in-game property (such as coins, items, or characters), for real money, you will lose your characters and accounts, and Blizzard Entertainment reserves its right to pursue legal action against you as well. We also want to remind potential buyers in the game to please refrain from buying in-game property with real money. We understand the temptation to purchase better items, but Blizzard, and not the seller, does own all in-game property. In addition, we feel that characters can find ample equipment and money within the game through their own adventuring and questing. Please understand that if you do purchase in-game property from sellers on eBay and personal sites, we may temporarily suspend your account, and at the very least, delete the offending items.
Thank you for understanding our position. Blizzard Entertainment is committed to maintaining the atmosphere of fair play and fun in World of Warcraft. "
Originally posted by Dekoth My stance is Simple, You want to Rant against IGE? then you better plan on playing your game in a manner that you actively Do not Support them In any manner. Unless you are willing to make a stand Against All of it, you are better off sitting back and shutting up because you only make yourself look like a ignorant hypocrite. simple analogy, You dont cut the leaves off a weed to kill it, it will continue to grow back, you kill its roots and the rest will die. IGE is a leaf on a tree of a problem, you want to stop IGE? going after them will accomplish nothing, you go after the root.
I do in every way within my powers and I find it hard to believe that most people that want to 'rant against IGE' knowingly support IGE cheats, so your stance is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Dekoth My stance is Simple, You want to Rant against IGE? then you better plan on playing your game in a manner that you actively Do not Support them In any manner. Unless you are willing to make a stand Against All of it, you are better off sitting back and shutting up because you only make yourself look like a ignorant hypocrite. simple analogy, You dont cut the leaves off a weed to kill it, it will continue to grow back, you kill its roots and the rest will die. IGE is a leaf on a tree of a problem, you want to stop IGE? going after them will accomplish nothing, you go after the root.
I do in every way within my powers and I find it hard to believe that most people that want to 'rant against IGE' knowingly support IGE cheats, so your stance is irrelevant.
Good I am glad you walk your talk, however you are in the minority I am afraid. the majority who come here, place their entire blame on IGE and give not a seconds consideration to any other element of the problem. The vast majority of people I have come across on various forums have never once considered any other element. They dislike the sellers and buyers but few have ranted about the buyers. Everytime you see a rant, it is IGE this, IGE that.
When was the last time you saw a thread pop up, I hate People who buy items in game? Compare that to the number of IGE threads.
See my point yet?
Until I start seeing threads across all forums, of people complaining about those who actually promote the market, at the frequency that I see threads ranting about the medium. Then I will maintain my stance that the majority of them are blissfully ignorant to the root of the problem, and IGE is just a convenient and easy target for them to publically slam and make themselves feel better.
Originally posted by Dekoth My stance is Simple, You want to Rant against IGE? then you better plan on playing your game in a manner that you actively Do not Support them In any manner. Unless you are willing to make a stand Against All of it, you are better off sitting back and shutting up because you only make yourself look like a ignorant hypocrite. simple analogy, You dont cut the leaves off a weed to kill it, it will continue to grow back, you kill its roots and the rest will die. IGE is a leaf on a tree of a problem, you want to stop IGE? going after them will accomplish nothing, you go after the root.
I do in every way within my powers and I find it hard to believe that most people that want to 'rant against IGE' knowingly support IGE cheats, so your stance is irrelevant.
Good I am glad you walk your talk, however you are in the minority I am afraid. the majority who come here, place their entire blame on IGE and give not a seconds consideration to any other element of the problem. The vast majority of people I have come across on various forums have never once considered any other element. They dislike the sellers and buyers but few have ranted about the buyers. Everytime you see a rant, it is IGE this, IGE that.
When was the last time you saw a thread pop up, I hate People who buy items in game? Compare that to the number of IGE threads.
See my point yet?
Until I start seeing threads across all forums, of people complaining about those who actually promote the market, at the frequency that I see threads ranting about the medium. Then I will maintain my stance that the majority of them are blissfully ignorant to the root of the problem, and IGE is just a convenient and easy target for them to publically slam and make themselves feel better.
I don't know where you get your info. Most people that actively complain about IGE do not support people who use them.
You will always see more complaints about big organisations than about the individuals that use them, it's natural and correct for it to be that way, get used to it. The sooner the likes of IGE are wiped out the sooner people will get the idea that buying items is not a legitimate activity.
The virtual market existed long before companies like Yantis and IGE existed. The market is what Spawned those companies. As the market was growing rapidly long before the likes of IGE, the changes of IGE going under having any impact on the market is unlikely at best. Players will always find a venue to sell, and buy. They did before IGE, and they will continue to do so after IGE. This market does not adhere to any rulesets that govern normal business's, And this is precisely why It is so very difficult for game developers to stamp it out. Because for the most part this market is not centralized, and does not hold any particular chain of command so to speak, its difficult to control.
You eliminate IGE, you remove one portion of the problem, but you do not kill it. There will be another to jump right into the void created and bring an equal if not larger service. The Demand is there, wether we like it or not, it is there and it continues to grow on a daily basis as Online gaming becomes bigger and bigger. As a result there will always be someone willing to supply that demand so long as it exists. This is the Black market of the Virtual world.
Dekoth: There will always be a market for all forms of cheating Dekoth whether it be 1 hit hacks, speedhacks or IGE and it will never be totally wiped out. But, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be stamped out at every available opportunity.
Originally posted by Dekoth It sounds like good reasoning except one problem. The virtual market existed long before companies like Yantis and IGE existed. The market is what Spawned those companies. As the market was growing rapidly long before the likes of IGE, the changes of IGE going under having any impact on the market is unlikely at best. Players will always find a venue to sell, and buy. They did before IGE, and they will continue to do so after IGE. This market does not adhere to any rulesets that govern normal business's, And this is precisely why It is so very difficult for game developers to stamp it out. Because for the most part this market is not centralized, and does not hold any particular chain of command so to speak, its difficult to control. You eliminate IGE, you remove one portion of the problem, but you do not kill it. There will be another to jump right into the void created and bring an equal if not larger service. The Demand is there, wether we like it or not, it is there and it continues to grow on a daily basis as Online gaming becomes bigger and bigger. As a result there will always be someone willing to supply that demand so long as it exists. This is the Black market of the Virtual world.
That doesn't mean we can't hate IGE, IGE is like firemen who throw gasoline on a house fire. Sure the fire was there before but they are the evil that is adding to the flames. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.
Comments
Those buying and selling are only ruining their own fun and those who care enough to be jealous. As to item farming, if this is reported to the propper autorities, something will usually be done by the devs and no, not banning those who pay for 30 accounts. This is a new market for people to make money in. I find it a sad market since the largest part if confronted with the real life situation (see monopoly example above) wouldn't even consider it.
Ethics in this genre have not yet been instored or are still those of single player computer games where cheating is considered a way to advance and enjoy the full product if you get stuck.
There is no "I hate IGE" that applies, that would be saying give me capitalism but only the benefits of it. It should be "I hate those cheaters", they are the ones altering the fun factor or it could be "I wish I was less jealous" for then you wouldn't care. Just don't play with them in game, boot them from your guilds. If the problem doesn't hurt you... then don't bother complaining.
ho is to say you can't get another group and go in their farming lands interfere with them, nothing they can do about it and their speed would be reduced. I tend not to move out because others are raiding an area, if I need to kill a mob I'll claim one by killing it myself, given I have the power to do so. It doesn't matter who is in the area or even what they are saying to me.
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My Reason for thise post was this. I am moving into a new a house and i wanted to play my MMO which is WoW. At the momment i dont have a internet at my house so i went to this Cyber cafe place to play some. When i got their i noticed 4 kids who seem to be around 16 or so. I noticed they where playing WoW also, so i ask them what they had and stuff and they showed me. Man was i surpised two of the kids had almost full Epic gears and and the other 2 had like 2 Epics. I asked where they got it from and they said from IGE. I didnt know what IGE was at the time so i ask what its was and they said it was a place where you can buy items and gold for real money. THe two kids with most of the Epics said he got the items + gold he use to buy the other stuff for about 200 dollers. At that point i wanted to Strangle the Damn kids. Then I left to my computer and started up WoW and I kept telling my slef man this sucks im spendting 3 hours an isntance with the chance of getting nothing and these loser are getting items i can only dream of. I know this sound kinda cheese but i kinda felt like crying and the only thing i could tell my self is "At least your playing legit" over and over.
All MMO's have grinds. If you don't like to Grind then MMO's are not for you.
Very interesting thread and many good points have been brought up. I know some are sick of this topic but I find it quite interesting and I'm enjoying learning what people's feelings are on the matter.
I can definitively see your POV but shouldn't you be saying to yourself "At least I'm having fun. At least I'm earning my loot.". What those guys do shouldn't matter to you. If them having paid for items and not properly leveling affects your game then I suggest the game's design is the problem.
I liked the monopoly example someone brought up earlier. In this example somebody affects the game by using RL money to buy some monopoly property. If this type of activity is allowed obviously the game is ruined. But this is a poor analogy because the game's goal is to beat other players and win the game. This is similar to an online game but is not at all the goal of MMOG. There is no single winner in a MMOG. Even if you have the highest level character and most loot that does not mean you've won the game and it's over.
So once again I suggest, if players buying items for RL negatively impacts the game then the design of the game needs to be improved. How about discussing how the design of the game can be changed?
I'll start out with one idea (possibly half assed). Many have brought up the problem of permanent campers staying in one place to get a certain special item drop. How about just making it so that once you've picked up one of these drops, it will not drop again for that same character. Therefore to keep getting that drop would require constantly getting new characters and they would have to be at a level capable of fighting the creature that drops it. I'm probably missing something but this change should not affect the regular gamer while making it useless to camp.
I'm sure some of you guys can come up with some other design ideas as well.
If there were any truth to the title of the topic we wouldnt be here would we now?The only way they could ever "kill"an mmo is to create counterfeit currency and introduce it to the gameworld.
If they did that most elite crafters would see it as more than enough credits to go around for everyone.At that point we would see inflation rise on items that are player made.
These topics are just ridiculous.They all sound like bitter casual gamers that are jealous of hardcore gamers who have the time to play to get the prestige items and massive credits.
Im a casual gamer and guess what?
I use IGE for the freedom it gives me to play and i could care less what players think of it.The credits provided are cheap enough to purchase and i am a very generous person in game as well.Ive been known to give out between 100k and 1 million at any given moment.
How am i hurting the socalled economy?If the economy was hurting in ANY given game the devs would do something about it.The developers are the ones who allow this to happen plain and simple.Stop putting ALL the blame on IGE and the players who use it and start asking why the devs allow this to continue.
Ill tell you why.
Because most devs see it as an opprotunity to make money on the side.Developers wont even address the issue.I can gaurantee you the more commercial popular games have got deals with IGE in wich IGE pays a tax to the devs.
Yeah right.They just say "we dont approve"
Thats why this has been going on for at least 5 years.They dont approve and look the other way.
Stop being so naive.Fact of the matter is ya cant screw up anything that is not real.The games are just games stop taking it so serious.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
That whole post was total crap and I am more stupid for reading it.
Every game that has open PvP can be ruined by Electronic Currency sales, any game where the top items can be purchased by a currency outside the games economy and can be used to kill other players is a deterant of the game.
What is so hard to understand about the concept of cheating? If you take something that is outside of the game and use it to your advantage inside the game that is cheating. The game wasn't designed so ppl could just drop 200 dollars into a 3rd party company and have whatever they want, if that was the case then they're wouldn't be and sellers because SOE, Blizzard, NCSoft and all the rest of the companies would be selling ingame currency straight from the login screen.
Except it, if you buy your a cheater, take a deep breath, its ok, maybe someday you'll be able to do something by yourself.
So you are trying to say people who take the time to post against IGE either tend to buy from IGE or support people that buy from IGE. And, when you say 'tend to' I can only assume you are trying to infer a majority. What are you basing this statement on? It's one of the craziest thing I ever heard lol.
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If they are not taking a proactive stance against players that use IGE, by refusing to group them, help them etc. Then yes they are being completely hypocritical about their stance. Fact of the matter is this, IGE would not exist If players were unwilling to buy. That is a point you cannot argue at all. If you claim to be against IGE, yet willingly conduct business, group etc with the players that Support it, you are supporting the very reason IGE exists and will continue to exist. So based off that, and the fact that the majority of players do not bother to take the time to be aware of who they call friend, yes it can be inferred that the majority of players are in fact supporting companies like IGE indirectly by supporting their customer base. Like it or lump it, fact is you cannot argue this.
IMO Buyers are to blame : no buyers= no sellers = no IGE. And those people are king of hypocrisy about this subject. Maybe Games are to blame too : "materialistic" games such EQ are farmers paradise. I wont even talk about all those asian games with their ungodly grinding. Personnaly I cant understand where's the fun in such simple grinding and time sinks opposed to the slow but rewarding Eve on line but well, another debate.
Quite honestly this is the most intelligent statement in this entire thread.
As to the rest of the post, Macros and botters Existed long before IGE, and would continue to exist even if there was no IGE, and will always be in games and used extensively by those not wishing to participate in repetitive treadmill tasks. As for macro and bot using, the majority of people using them are not using them to sell to IGE, they are using them to get their personal character advanced. I frequent the macro boards for nearly every game out there to keep a heads up on what is out, and what to look for to avoid certain things, I am well aware how large the macro community is, and I assure you it is at least 10x larger then the bots dedicated to ingame currency selling.
My Reason for thise post was this. I am moving into a new a house and i wanted to play my MMO which is WoW. At the momment i dont have a internet at my house so i went to this Cyber cafe place to play some. When i got their i noticed 4 kids who seem to be around 16 or so. I noticed they where playing WoW also, so i ask them what they had and stuff and they showed me. Man was i surpised two of the kids had almost full Epic gears and and the other 2 had like 2 Epics. I asked where they got it from and they said from IGE. I didnt know what IGE was at the time so i ask what its was and they said it was a place where you can buy items and gold for real money. THe two kids with most of the Epics said he got the items + gold he use to buy the other stuff for about 200 dollers. At that point i wanted to Strangle the Damn kids. Then I left to my computer and started up WoW and I kept telling my slef man this sucks im spendting 3 hours an isntance with the chance of getting nothing and these loser are getting items i can only dream of. I know this sound kinda cheese but i kinda felt like crying and the only thing i could tell my self is "At least your playing legit" over and over
Well quite frankly if you feel that way about it, something is wrong with you. Who cares what other players have, the question is. Are you enjoying the game? And are you satisfied with the progression you have made? If the answer is yes, then who cares what they do? Fact is they are going to get bored and quit the game long before you will as a result of they have no sense of accomplishment, They will never understand the feeling of working for an item for weeks and finally getting it. This is the ADD generation, They want everything now, have the attention span of a flea and once they get it, just like any child they are bored in a few weeks and gone. Do not waste time being jealous over someone like this.
Every game that has open PvP can be ruined by Electronic Currency sales, any game where the top items can be purchased by a currency outside the games economy and can be used to kill other players is a deterant of the game.
If the PVP system is Crap and gear dependent, you are right. However if they designed the system right to begin with where PVP was skill based as So many on this forum keep insisting that level/gear based games with pvp require skill, then ingame currency selling would not affect it. I used to play UO before they gimped it up, pre T2A, And quite frankly I did not care what weapon someone else had, fact is if they were a skilless idiot, they could have the Heavy Crossbow of L33t Uber GM killing, and I would still kick their ass because they had ZERO skill. Now if gear affects the outcome of your PVP fight, then guess what THAT PVP SYSTEM SUCKS, And furthermore requires no skill.
End point? If you do not want companies like IGE to exist, quit ranting against the company as you are doing nothing more then beating your head against the wall futiely. Target the players who use the services, Black list them, Refuse to group them, Refuse to be in the same guilds as them, ( dont feel bad about exploiting them and taking their money by making them pay far more then an item is worth though. ) If the Gamer community stood up and simply decided to stand against this type of ingame behavior then it would cut down dramatically. However rants like this against the medium are utterly useless, and those that buy the stuff are simply mocking you, because they know in game you will group them and they will in fact advance quicker because they do not have to be bothered with the trivial little things.
It's true that IGE exists to support casual players. As a result, more hardcore gamers will not like it (at least those hardcore gamers who are not the ones who supply game currency to IGE).
The impact has to be inflationary in that it creates more players who have substantial cash, which increases demand for items and therefore keeps prices higher. Taking EVE as an example, the more players with 100 million ISK, the more demand there will be for battleships, plain and simple, and the price will either be stable/high or go even higher if there are even more players with more ISK able to support a higher price.
What IGE really does is not penalize the hardcore gamer (it has the impact more of equalizing the position of the casual gamer with the hardcore gamer), but it really penalizes the casual gamer who is not willing to get currency on IGE. They have no way to catch up, and the IGE casuals are out there in the market keeping the prices up, so the relatively poor casual gamer is left behind. Now, you could argue that they are no more behind the hardcore gamers than they otherwise would be, and that may be true, but the fact that there are many more casual players out there with substantial cash has an impact on the market and thus overall it makes the situation worse for the non-IGE casual players. In circumstances like these, the casual players will leave (as has happened in Lineage 2, for example).
I do not think it is possible to stop it, however. If it were not IGE, it would be eBay or other sites. Some games like Second Life have realized this and specifically allow players to use out of game money to purchase in game currency (and before you say it's not competitive, it sure is when it comes to purchasing land, which can be quite expensive in Second Life). I suspect that if the gaming companies had an easy time stopping it they would try harder to do so. But since it is hard to stop, and since it pleases the casual segment of the player base and keeps them playing the game (and paying), it's not surprising that so little has been and is being done to stop operations like IGE.
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If they are not taking a proactive stance against players that use IGE, by refusing to group them, help them etc. Then yes they are being completely hypocritical about their stance. Fact of the matter is this, IGE would not exist If players were unwilling to buy. That is a point you cannot argue at all. If you claim to be against IGE, yet willingly conduct business, group etc with the players that Support it, you are supporting the very reason IGE exists and will continue to exist. So based off that, and the fact that the majority of players do not bother to take the time to be aware of who they call friend, yes it can be inferred that the majority of players are in fact supporting companies like IGE indirectly by supporting their customer base. Like it or lump it, fact is you cannot argue this.
How are people supposed to know where others got their items? Most people who use IGE are too ashamed to admit to it ingame because they know many people will do exactly what you say they should. I don't consider anyone a hypocrit for grouping with people when they have no idea where their kit came from. If any IGE users became apparent in our clan they would be gone, I would make sure of it as I consider IGE users cheats. The paragraph you typed above is totally ridiculous and laughable.
Now if gear affects the outcome of your PVP fight, then guess what THAT PVP SYSTEM SUCKS, And furthermore requires no skill.A PvP system may be crap in your opinion but it doesn't make it any more right to ruin it with out of game advantages.
Target the players who use the services, Black list them, Refuse to group them, Refuse to be in the same guilds as them, ( dont feel bad about exploiting them and taking their money by making them pay far more then an item is worth though. ) If the Gamer community stood up and simply decided to stand against this type of ingame behavior then it would cut down dramatically. However rants like this against the medium are utterly useless, and those that buy the stuff are simply mocking you, because they know in game you will group them and they will in fact advance quicker because they do not have to be bothered with the trivial little things.
To try and lay the responsibility for dealing with this on players who play legitimately is another totally ridiculous thing to suggest. I wouldn't knowingly group with a hacker/cheat/IGE user but the fact is they look the same as any other player and do not readily own up to their cheating ways. This method you suggest would be completely inneffective.
According to Dekoth: As legit players, it is our fault that cheats are allowed to run rampant in games. We are supposed to be the ones that take responsibility for policing their acts and stopping it. We are also not allowed to complain about it. We are just a bunch of hypocrits. Of course it isn't the buyers he should be directing his posts at and it's not IGE that has to share any blame, no these people who are actually responsible are for some reason protected by Dekoth. I can only laugh at his twisted logic and wonder at his motives.
MMORPG
Bottom line is this:
1.IGE exists because developers dont do a damn thing about it.
2.Blame the players who use IGE all you want but the developers need to police the games for this behaviour not the players.They write the code and develop the game.If they really WANTED to they could put a stop to this.
3.The devs KNOW when large amounts of currency are being exchanged at any given time.Im not talking 1 million in credits either more like 50 to 100 million.ever wonder why they dont do anything about it?
4.Developers of popular mmo's and IGE are in bed together on this to believe otherwise is naive.The sooner you accept this the happier you will be.
You want this to stop quit bitchin about it to the general public and let the developers know by NOT playing games where it is suspect.
The biggest vote you have is your wallet.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
MMORPG
IGE and the buinsess like them ruin and sometime mess up the game. The point of the games is to start with little to no money a and crapy weapon and maybe armor and work your way up to lots of money, a nice weapon and armor. I hate when people cheat in the game. Its alright if you do it in a offline games,but if you do it online it just ruins the games.
Good job reading between the lines, other then the fact that your interpertation of what I said is wrong. I stated exactly what I meant and left no room for interpertation, anything you are inferring a my meaning outside what I typed is simply you trying to justify your hate toward a company that only exists because there is a part of the player base demanding it.
I never said we as legit players are responsible to track down these players and stop them, I am stating that if you feel so strongly that IGE is detrimentally affecting your playing experience then you had better have just an equal stance against the players that utilize it. My twisted logic? thats amusing thus far you have managed to try and twist everything I have said. If you read my post's my logic is pretty straight foward and to the point it is hardly twisted. As for IGE, Personally I do not care about them, honestly they do nothing that impacts my game play in any manner at all. As for players that utilize it and how to pick them out? Its pretty easy actually, if you have trouble figuring out who they are, then you are rather dense. Any player that has gear or money that is well beyond their level and they cannot give a good explaination as to how they got it, good chance they bought it. Any player that has gear and money beyond their level is going to have to have certain variables attached to getting that. Either they are a crafter, and make alot of money crafting, which would inferr they have at least 1 high skill in crafting. They are a trader, and spend their time buying low selling high, this is pretty easy to recognize as they will have a fairly good knowledge of the market. Or they spent tons of time farming creatures, which again fairly easy to figure out, or they bought it. Honestly its not hard to tell someone who Buys their items and gear from someone who did not.
Now as to where you came up to the idea of my posts are not directed at the buyers, where you pulled that statement out of I wont ask, But if you actually read my post, instead of assuming what I said you will note I am Trying to get people to focus more on the buyers, and less on the medium through which they bought. I find it absurd that people hate IGE when the fact is they are simply a more public face of a number of other mediums that people buy through. Ill name some of them; Yantis, Ebay, Player Auctions, the individual players that sell through these mediums. Yet I do not see post's popping up Ranting about Ebay, I do not see post's popping up ranting about player auctions, All i see is IGE this, IGE that...This whole virtual property selling thing Actually started on Ebay in the first place. I am not laying responsibility on the legitimate players to deal with this, I am a fully legitimate player and quite frankly as I have stated numerous times I do not give a flaming rats ass about those who buy and sell. However I will not sit back and let people Ignorantly Rant against a company, unless they are just as willing to take up the cause and target the root of the problem.
My stance is Simple, You want to Rant against IGE? then you better plan on playing your game in a manner that you actively Do not Support them In any manner. Unless you are willing to make a stand Against All of it, you are better off sitting back and shutting up because you only make yourself look like a ignorant hypocrite. simple analogy, You dont cut the leaves off a weed to kill it, it will continue to grow back, you kill its roots and the rest will die. IGE is a leaf on a tree of a problem, you want to stop IGE? going after them will accomplish nothing, you go after the root.
The only evidence you really need is the lack of policing by developers.The very act of NOT doing anything about it is evidence enough for me.
You want proof that this is done?Go look at the IGE website and the games they provide currency for.
To say that the developers are in the dark on this issue is just silly the IGE website can be accessed by anyone.They advertise on this site and a few devs themselves are known to make postings on this site as well.
I cant prove this goes on but it cant be disproved either.The EULA's may say that this is against game policy but its never enforced.If it was we wouldnt be addressing this topic.It has become such a lucrative market that developers more than likely jump on board.
Think about it,they get the consumer to pay for an account,IGE pays for an account maybe more than one,and the devs get a "tax" from IGE for every sale of ingame currency.
If ANYONE is to blame for this its the developers.They make the game they market the game and allow people to play on company owned servers.
If they truly wanted to put a stop to this they would have done so 3 to 5 years ago when the subculture for this popped up.
The only way this will EVER stop is to have a mmo with no currency or items.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
All that just reads like a big conspiracy that theoretically could be true but probably isn't. Name names, maybe L2 or WoW? Personally I doubt it. I believe that they are against it. I do agree with you that it is developers who need to be taking more action but their powers are limited. Ultimately they need to try and put IGE and co. out of business through the courts which is expensive. Then we will be left with a smaller problem of individual ebayers, but nothing is perfect.
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This post is worth it's weight in sh*t. Looks like you did not even bother to grab some info about the subject.
1) Just reminder : This activity (real money market) is against the EULAs of the games. Line of defense for sellers : they dont sell virtual property, they are selling their in game time... There were some attempts to stop that. Too bad I dont have sources. SOE/Mythic/Blizzard asked Ebay to remove auctions. Why no lawsuit : dunno. Maybe because legaly it's uncertain who would win. Only lawsuit i'm aware of : "case of Blacksnow vs. Mythic, the onus would have been on Blacksnow to prove to the court this concept of "Virtual Property" and have it stand up umder appeal. Mythic had and continues to have existing law on their side." I heard recently about a gathering of game editors that would engage legal action, maybe just a rumor.
2) Games are already "policed". Enough ? i dont know. Sellers not smart enough are easy to track and have they account inspected and banned. Occasional sellers for real cash are hard to track. Pro sellers have multi account, multi ip etc (I dont have the details) and are harder to track. Looks like having a GM poping out of nowhere to tell you that you were exploiting the game never happened to you ? happened to me (EQ, about some pathing bug i was not aware of). Having more people monitoring player records would mean higher cost and higher monthly fee. When I was guide (EQ volunteer mini gm) I saw that game admin could track everything was happening in the game, but it would take them much time considering the amount of informations.
3) Cheaters exist for every games, devs know that. Reminds me Blizzard who had their Diablo game ruined (on battlenet). Diablo 2 is almost gone for them too. You must know that when your game gets patched, sometime those "various fixes" concern some game exploits, item/money dupe etc. What those "bound" item that appeared with EQ and WoW ? No Drop/Lore items (eq/daoc none tradable/Unique stuff) ? About Daoc, the way equipment is relative to your level is also a nice way to prevent twinking and item market for lowbies. Devs are doing things about it. Maybe they could do more ? But as a legit player I hate to think that because of the real money market devs are using hard rules that otherwise could have made my player's life easier.
4) For god sake give your sources if you have some hot informations. I doubt SOE/EA/BLIZZARD/NCSOFT... are friends with IGE and the like. (maybe SOE, they are so greedy and love so much pizza). But who knows...
Blizzard, they made a fast leveling, easy farming/trade skill stuff game : makes IGE business more hard for this game. Not talking about their cheaters paranoia (remember that battlenet story ?). At least I know that there's ware between Sigil games and IGE. IGE also wanted to buy some sites (spoilers, item/mobs database, general) some refused, I know of allakazam and mmorpg.com who were asked and refused (at least, it's what they officialy said). Same for tons of fan sites.
About casual gamers, see Guildwars, next ncsoft game : fast and easy gaming, stuffing, pvp. Imho I think this is just the first mmog of this kind, more should follow. Maybe real money buyers will move to these game, lowering demand for more hard core games.
if you guys have more links, it would be nice to post them
Sigil games vs IGE http://forums.gucomics.com/viewtopic.php?t=6438
http://www.thesafehouse.org/viewtopic.php?p=234761#234761
Q&A with IGE public relations mp http://www.okratas.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=57
Selling World of Warcraft In-Game Content for Real Money - Block on 12/10/04
It has come to our attention that certain individuals are selling Blizzard's in-game property for cash on auction sites such as eBay and on personal websites. The World of Warcraft Terms of Use clearly state that all of the content in World of Warcraft is the property of Blizzard, and Blizzard does not allow "in game" items to be sold for real money. Accordingly, Blizzard Entertainment will take any and all actions necessary to stop this behavior. Not only do we believe that it is illegal, but it also has the potential to damage the game economy and overall experience for the many thousands of others who play World of Warcraft for fun. In order to promote a fun and fair environment for all our customers, we are actively investigating those individuals who engage in this inappropriate activity and reserve the right to take legal action against these individuals to protect World of Warcraft for all those who "play by the rules." If you are found to be selling in-game property (such as coins, items, or characters), for real money, you will lose your characters and accounts, and Blizzard Entertainment reserves its right to pursue legal action against you as well.
We also want to remind potential buyers in the game to please refrain from buying in-game property with real money. We understand the temptation to purchase better items, but Blizzard, and not the seller, does own all in-game property. In addition, we feel that characters can find ample equipment and money within the game through their own adventuring and questing. Please understand that if you do purchase in-game property from sellers on eBay and personal sites, we may temporarily suspend your account, and at the very least, delete the offending items.
Thank you for understanding our position. Blizzard Entertainment is committed to maintaining the atmosphere of fair play and fun in World of Warcraft. "
Atm more than 2000 auctions just for WoW on EBay
[url=http://p
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Good I am glad you walk your talk, however you are in the minority I am afraid. the majority who come here, place their entire blame on IGE and give not a seconds consideration to any other element of the problem. The vast majority of people I have come across on various forums have never once considered any other element. They dislike the sellers and buyers but few have ranted about the buyers. Everytime you see a rant, it is IGE this, IGE that.
When was the last time you saw a thread pop up, I hate People who buy items in game? Compare that to the number of IGE threads.
See my point yet?
Until I start seeing threads across all forums, of people complaining about those who actually promote the market, at the frequency that I see threads ranting about the medium. Then I will maintain my stance that the majority of them are blissfully ignorant to the root of the problem, and IGE is just a convenient and easy target for them to publically slam and make themselves feel better.
Good I am glad you walk your talk, however you are in the minority I am afraid. the majority who come here, place their entire blame on IGE and give not a seconds consideration to any other element of the problem. The vast majority of people I have come across on various forums have never once considered any other element. They dislike the sellers and buyers but few have ranted about the buyers. Everytime you see a rant, it is IGE this, IGE that.
When was the last time you saw a thread pop up, I hate People who buy items in game? Compare that to the number of IGE threads.
See my point yet?
Until I start seeing threads across all forums, of people complaining about those who actually promote the market, at the frequency that I see threads ranting about the medium. Then I will maintain my stance that the majority of them are blissfully ignorant to the root of the problem, and IGE is just a convenient and easy target for them to publically slam and make themselves feel better.
I don't know where you get your info. Most people that actively complain about IGE do not support people who use them.
You will always see more complaints about big organisations than about the individuals that use them, it's natural and correct for it to be that way, get used to it. The sooner the likes of IGE are wiped out the sooner people will get the idea that buying items is not a legitimate activity.
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It sounds like good reasoning except one problem.
The virtual market existed long before companies like Yantis and IGE existed. The market is what Spawned those companies. As the market was growing rapidly long before the likes of IGE, the changes of IGE going under having any impact on the market is unlikely at best. Players will always find a venue to sell, and buy. They did before IGE, and they will continue to do so after IGE. This market does not adhere to any rulesets that govern normal business's, And this is precisely why It is so very difficult for game developers to stamp it out. Because for the most part this market is not centralized, and does not hold any particular chain of command so to speak, its difficult to control.
You eliminate IGE, you remove one portion of the problem, but you do not kill it. There will be another to jump right into the void created and bring an equal if not larger service. The Demand is there, wether we like it or not, it is there and it continues to grow on a daily basis as Online gaming becomes bigger and bigger. As a result there will always be someone willing to supply that demand so long as it exists. This is the Black market of the Virtual world.
I'm just in awe that this topic is here, and 5 pages long, again.
Does this really need to be done daily? I mean good grief people.
Dekoth: There will always be a market for all forms of cheating Dekoth whether it be 1 hit hacks, speedhacks or IGE and it will never be totally wiped out. But, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be stamped out at every available opportunity.
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That doesn't mean we can't hate IGE, IGE is like firemen who throw gasoline on a house fire. Sure the fire was there before but they are the evil that is adding to the flames. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.