i own property in " real life" and pay my property taxes. I make around 50k a year...just because people are making money on a " virtual" commodity does not mean they should not be obligated to pay the taxes and dues applied by the country the game is operated out of. California is facing I believe a billion dollar deficit between the hoard of illegal immigrants in the state and alot of inept politicans. I say its simple, tax linden labls, have them appl a flat tax to all virtual property in the game. And not for nothing, if this was the UK or any other EU country this probably never would have made it this far. These 4 people have no legal ground to stand on. The as customers are essentially renting space on a server, if anything all a court would award them is a refund on their virual rent which not for nothing doesn't amount to 5 million dollars. Frankly it nauseates me that anyone in in SL makes more money than I do a week...I work these nerds just sit behind a pc in their moms basement
i own property in " real life" and pay my property taxes. I make around 50k a year...just because people are making money on a " virtual" commodity does not mean they should not be obligated to pay the taxes and dues applied by the country the game is operated out of. California is facing I believe a billion dollar deficit between the hoard of illegal immigrants in the state and alot of inept politicans. I say its simple, tax linden labls, have them appl a flat tax to all virtual property in the game. And not for nothing, if this was the UK or any other EU country this probably never would have made it this far. These 4 people have no legal ground to stand on. The as customers are essentially renting space on a server, if anything all a court would award them is a refund on their virual rent which not for nothing doesn't amount to 5 million dollars. Frankly it nauseates me that anyone in in SL makes more money than I do a week...I work these nerds just sit behind a pc in their moms basement
I got a call today from some census thing on CA's budget crises', and one of the questions was "are you for attaching state sales taxes to things not currently taxed?"... I asked if he meant online game subs, things like this, etc - but he couldn't give a definite answer. My opinion though, is "yes", and I am surprised that nobody has had to pay state taxes on this stuff up till now. Never even thought of it.
8 cents on the dollar per subscription is nothing, but would mean a lot over time, and with how many people do it. Then again, maybe these taxes already figure into the sub-rates, though it may not.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
i own property in " real life" and pay my property taxes. I make around 50k a year...just because people are making money on a " virtual" commodity does not mean they should not be obligated to pay the taxes and dues applied by the country the game is operated out of. California is facing I believe a billion dollar deficit between the hoard of illegal immigrants in the state and alot of inept politicans. I say its simple, tax linden labls, have them appl a flat tax to all virtual property in the game. And not for nothing, if this was the UK or any other EU country this probably never would have made it this far. These 4 people have no legal ground to stand on. The as customers are essentially renting space on a server, if anything all a court would award them is a refund on their virual rent which not for nothing doesn't amount to 5 million dollars. Frankly it nauseates me that anyone in in SL makes more money than I do a week...I work these nerds just sit behind a pc in their moms basement
I got a call today from some census thing on CA's budget crises', and one of the questions was "are you for attaching state sales taxes to things not currently taxed?"... I asked if he meant online game subs, things like this, etc - but he couldn't give a definite answer. My opinion though, is "yes", and I am surprised that nobody has had to pay state taxes on this stuff up till now. Never even thought of it.
8 cents on the dollar per subscription is nothing, but would mean a lot over time, and with how many people do it. Then again, maybe these taxes already figure into the sub-rates, though it may not.
Theres a few problems with the sales taxation though. For one thing, our monthly sub is just that, a subscription to a service, not the actual purchase/sale of a product. So perhaps they could get the tax from the sale of the game itself, but not a tax on the monthly sub. Along with that, many of the games we play are not even hosted in our country (let alone the state) and does not go through any sort fo regulation or anything inw hich the state touches, so there would really be no way for them to touch the money (or the records of the subscriptions in order to even make sure people ar egetting taxed properly) going back and forth between ourselves and the servers/sites in other countries. If anything i could see the federal government getting involved in trying to tax online services/subscriptions liek gaming, but not the states.
lol. See, this is what happens when people really dont get a 'real' life.
That post is coming from someone posting on a mmo site himself...? Get a clue is what is actually needed there.
Most people in SL who have steady businesses can make anywhere from 500-2k USD per month with a decent setup. And that isn't even some of the actually successful businesses who can make six figure incomes per year in SL. So you think they need to get a life? They probably have a better one than you Cik_Asalin.
wow dude no offence but you kinda sound like you have no life. just because they make money dosent mean they have a "Life" do you know what the meaning of "a life" is? its where you go out, have fun, make friends and so on. you can't do that over the internet..sorry sad but true. maybe some of them have lives but most of them really dont.
Interesting to see what becomes of this. Not because of SL, from this gamer's perspective that app is 'whacked', but speaking of the virtual economy perspective...
If they win or change anything, what will it do to the virtual 'gold' farming companies around the world? Would it change how games have to stop them? tax them? Would consumers have the right to sue the developers for allowing them into their virtual economy?
A sad pathetic side to American culture, an attitude that is unfortunately being exported to the rest of the western world courtesy of the US, all for blatant money grab attempts on competition or from situations like this. It's pathetic greedy disgusting behaviour.
lol. See, this is what happens when people really dont get a 'real' life.
That post is coming from someone posting on a mmo site himself...? Get a clue is what is actually needed there.
Most people in SL who have steady businesses can make anywhere from 500-2k USD per month with a decent setup. And that isn't even some of the actually successful businesses who can make six figure incomes per year in SL. So you think they need to get a life? They probably have a better one than you Cik_Asalin.
wow dude no offence but you kinda sound like you have no life. just because they make money dosent mean they have a "Life" do you know what the meaning of "a life" is? its where you go out, have fun, make friends and so on. you can't do that over the internet..sorry sad but true. maybe some of them have lives but most of them really dont.
always cracks ne up when see gamers especially talk about someone elses lack of rl on a message board obviously dude if your rl was that great your ass would be out enjoyin it rather than nerd trolling on forums.
Interesting to see what becomes of this. Not because of SL, from this gamer's perspective that app is 'whacked', but speaking of the virtual economy perspective...
If they win or change anything, what will it do to the virtual 'gold' farming companies around the world? Would it change how games have to stop them? tax them? Would consumers have the right to sue the developers for allowing them into their virtual economy?
Here's Pandora's Box, Judge, open it if ya dare.
It's Linden Labs who opened it. I think their execs are going to become very unpopular in the industry.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I know that atleast one Dutch bank (ABNAMRO) had a virtual office in SL, I don't know if it is still active. But I do know that the investment in such a project could easily be multiple millions of euros, the largest investment being personel that works/worked on the project and advertisement. If the SL 'contract' was suddenly changed in a one sided action, that is going to be problematic and it wouldn't surprise me if RL businesses that invested in SL would sue over it. Linden Labs is actually functioning as bank, so it's not so much a game as it is a virtual world that sells virtual goods.
I would also like to point out that most of the money transactions these days credit card, paypal, etc. Are also virtual. Even the cash in your hand is as good as virtual, as the worth of it isn't backed by anything but a promise, no Gold backing at all.
Well I can see their losses being 5 million in damages easy..Isnt Second Life the place where they recently (and by that I mean the past few years) Some sort of asteroid property for 250 million (insert virtual dollars here) that still worked out to what? 500 grand RL funds?
Wish I could have gotten into SL when it was young, I could have made some cash
Well I can see their losses being 5 million in damages easy..Isnt Second Life the place where they recently (and by that I mean the past few years) Some sort of asteroid property for 250 million (insert virtual dollars here) that still worked out to what? 500 grand RL funds?
Wish I could have gotten into SL when it was young, I could have made some cash
Entropia Universe... and it was in the hundreds of thousands.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
lol. See, this is what happens when people really dont get a 'real' life.
That post is coming from someone posting on a mmo site himself...? Get a clue is what is actually needed there.
Most people in SL who have steady businesses can make anywhere from 500-2k USD per month with a decent setup. And that isn't even some of the actually successful businesses who can make six figure incomes per year in SL. So you think they need to get a life? They probably have a better one than you Cik_Asalin.
wow dude no offence but you kinda sound like you have no life. just because they make money dosent mean they have a "Life" do you know what the meaning of "a life" is? its where you go out, have fun, make friends and so on. you can't do that over the internet..sorry sad but true. maybe some of them have lives but most of them really dont.
You just don't get it do you? It is how they earn an income or some, a secondary income. Meaning they have a life outside of SL as do I, tyvm. I am happily married with a wife and three kids for your information. The sad thing is that gamers on this site are slandering other fellow gamers because of pure ignorance in not understand the implications of the situation. Don't post on here and flame people, claiming they have no life when that among other things is possibly the most childish thing a poster could say on a GAMING website.
lol. See, this is what happens when people really dont get a 'real' life.
That post is coming from someone posting on a mmo site himself...? Get a clue is what is actually needed there.
Most people in SL who have steady businesses can make anywhere from 500-2k USD per month with a decent setup. And that isn't even some of the actually successful businesses who can make six figure incomes per year in SL. So you think they need to get a life? They probably have a better one than you Cik_Asalin.
wow dude no offence but you kinda sound like you have no life. just because they make money dosent mean they have a "Life" do you know what the meaning of "a life" is? its where you go out, have fun, make friends and so on. you can't do that over the internet..sorry sad but true. maybe some of them have lives but most of them really dont.
You just don't get it do you? It is how they earn an income or some, a secondary income. Meaning they have a life outside of SL as do I, tyvm. I am happily married with a wife and three kids for your information. The sad thing is that gamers on this site are slandering other fellow gamers because of pure ignorance in not understand the implications of the situation. Don't post on here and flame people, claiming they have no life when that among other things is possibly the most childish thing a poster could say on a GAMING website.
I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet but...
One of the most rabid online gaming nations in the world, South Korea, had their highest court rule that things that people create online is their virtual property. It has monetary value and can be bought and sold as real property.
While you may blow this off as being some crazy other nation thing, give it some thoought. If something has value it can be taxed by government. Governments love new means of collecting revenue. The US government is no exception.
LMFAO!!! Second Life is fun for a virtual world, I have owned property but I like most ppl know for a fact that you can't really own virtual land in game not entirely...cause the virtual world could eventually disappear like any other game if it lost popularity & besides that they have the right to take it back at any point in time those EULA agreements apply in any game I've ever played & I've been on SL for 6 years off & on & those rules have never changed. I bet ya those ppl that sued Linden Labs end up getting their case thrown out of court & if it happens I'll LMAO!
This is more proff our tort system is out of control. Sueing over "virtual" land in a game is laughable, the Court should toss this suit and force plaintifs to pay all expences.
So there virtual land these people figure is worth 5 MILLION.....LOL wow I should move into Second Life and sell real estate there!
In lawsuits the "moral damage" can imply sums like that... Imagine a scenario where you tear your trousers in a Armani store - and than you sue Armani with 3 milion $ - cause of that, I mean what if sombody saw your panties ... the moral damage is overwhelming.
One of the most rabid online gaming nations in the world, South Korea, had their highest court rule that things that people create online is their virtual property. It has monetary value and can be bought and sold as real property.
While you may blow this off as being some crazy other nation thing, give it some thoought. If something has value it can be taxed by government. Governments love new means of collecting revenue. The US government is no exception.
Virtual property rights is very much like any intelectual property right. The Koreans ruled that it was akin to writing a book or a song.
The Korean courts later amended the rule that the original company retains most of the rights in anything created in MMOs that is not considered a creative pursuit. This was in regards to a destroyed weapon in Lineage II that a customer was sueing to have restored.
Bottom line is the courts just kind of make it up as they go along. Maybe it is time to appeal to a higher power and ask the Vatican Pope or something.
Originally writing this as a joke but it could be serious if someone asks the Islamic Sharia courts who owns virtual land. They would be forced to give a ruling.
Comments
i own property in " real life" and pay my property taxes. I make around 50k a year...just because people are making money on a " virtual" commodity does not mean they should not be obligated to pay the taxes and dues applied by the country the game is operated out of. California is facing I believe a billion dollar deficit between the hoard of illegal immigrants in the state and alot of inept politicans. I say its simple, tax linden labls, have them appl a flat tax to all virtual property in the game. And not for nothing, if this was the UK or any other EU country this probably never would have made it this far. These 4 people have no legal ground to stand on. The as customers are essentially renting space on a server, if anything all a court would award them is a refund on their virual rent which not for nothing doesn't amount to 5 million dollars. Frankly it nauseates me that anyone in in SL makes more money than I do a week...I work these nerds just sit behind a pc in their moms basement
so say we all
oh and if you want a prime example of how virtual property works as anyone who owned peoperty or business in there.com
so say we all
I got a call today from some census thing on CA's budget crises', and one of the questions was "are you for attaching state sales taxes to things not currently taxed?"... I asked if he meant online game subs, things like this, etc - but he couldn't give a definite answer. My opinion though, is "yes", and I am surprised that nobody has had to pay state taxes on this stuff up till now. Never even thought of it.
8 cents on the dollar per subscription is nothing, but would mean a lot over time, and with how many people do it. Then again, maybe these taxes already figure into the sub-rates, though it may not.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Theres a few problems with the sales taxation though. For one thing, our monthly sub is just that, a subscription to a service, not the actual purchase/sale of a product. So perhaps they could get the tax from the sale of the game itself, but not a tax on the monthly sub. Along with that, many of the games we play are not even hosted in our country (let alone the state) and does not go through any sort fo regulation or anything inw hich the state touches, so there would really be no way for them to touch the money (or the records of the subscriptions in order to even make sure people ar egetting taxed properly) going back and forth between ourselves and the servers/sites in other countries. If anything i could see the federal government getting involved in trying to tax online services/subscriptions liek gaming, but not the states.
wow dude no offence but you kinda sound like you have no life. just because they make money dosent mean they have a "Life" do you know what the meaning of "a life" is? its where you go out, have fun, make friends and so on. you can't do that over the internet..sorry sad but true. maybe some of them have lives but most of them really dont.
Interesting to see what becomes of this. Not because of SL, from this gamer's perspective that app is 'whacked', but speaking of the virtual economy perspective...
If they win or change anything, what will it do to the virtual 'gold' farming companies around the world? Would it change how games have to stop them? tax them? Would consumers have the right to sue the developers for allowing them into their virtual economy?
Here's Pandora's Box, Judge, open it if ya dare.
I think they got a case and everyone that thinks it stupid just took them selves out on a date considering this is an MMO website.
A sad pathetic side to American culture, an attitude that is unfortunately being exported to the rest of the western world courtesy of the US, all for blatant money grab attempts on competition or from situations like this. It's pathetic greedy disgusting behaviour.
It's Linden Labs who opened it. I think their execs are going to become very unpopular in the industry.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I know that atleast one Dutch bank (ABNAMRO) had a virtual office in SL, I don't know if it is still active. But I do know that the investment in such a project could easily be multiple millions of euros, the largest investment being personel that works/worked on the project and advertisement. If the SL 'contract' was suddenly changed in a one sided action, that is going to be problematic and it wouldn't surprise me if RL businesses that invested in SL would sue over it. Linden Labs is actually functioning as bank, so it's not so much a game as it is a virtual world that sells virtual goods.
I would also like to point out that most of the money transactions these days credit card, paypal, etc. Are also virtual. Even the cash in your hand is as good as virtual, as the worth of it isn't backed by anything but a promise, no Gold backing at all.
Well I can see their losses being 5 million in damages easy..Isnt Second Life the place where they recently (and by that I mean the past few years) Some sort of asteroid property for 250 million (insert virtual dollars here) that still worked out to what? 500 grand RL funds?
Wish I could have gotten into SL when it was young, I could have made some cash
Entropia Universe... and it was in the hundreds of thousands.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Lol this reminds me of my days playing SWG Pre-CU and all the Lies SOE made to us subscribers.
You just don't get it do you? It is how they earn an income or some, a secondary income. Meaning they have a life outside of SL as do I, tyvm. I am happily married with a wife and three kids for your information. The sad thing is that gamers on this site are slandering other fellow gamers because of pure ignorance in not understand the implications of the situation. Don't post on here and flame people, claiming they have no life when that among other things is possibly the most childish thing a poster could say on a GAMING website.
I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet but...
One of the most rabid online gaming nations in the world, South Korea, had their highest court rule that things that people create online is their virtual property. It has monetary value and can be bought and sold as real property.
While you may blow this off as being some crazy other nation thing, give it some thoought. If something has value it can be taxed by government. Governments love new means of collecting revenue. The US government is no exception.
LMFAO!!! Second Life is fun for a virtual world, I have owned property but I like most ppl know for a fact that you can't really own virtual land in game not entirely...cause the virtual world could eventually disappear like any other game if it lost popularity & besides that they have the right to take it back at any point in time those EULA agreements apply in any game I've ever played & I've been on SL for 6 years off & on & those rules have never changed. I bet ya those ppl that sued Linden Labs end up getting their case thrown out of court & if it happens I'll LMAO!
This is more proff our tort system is out of control. Sueing over "virtual" land in a game is laughable, the Court should toss this suit and force plaintifs to pay all expences.
I call for all Unicord Rapers and Flying Penis's to unite against this common enemy...
http://www.forceofarms.com/index.php
In lawsuits the "moral damage" can imply sums like that... Imagine a scenario where you tear your trousers in a Armani store - and than you sue Armani with 3 milion $ - cause of that, I mean what if sombody saw your panties ... the moral damage is overwhelming.
Virtual property rights is very much like any intelectual property right. The Koreans ruled that it was akin to writing a book or a song.
The Korean courts later amended the rule that the original company retains most of the rights in anything created in MMOs that is not considered a creative pursuit. This was in regards to a destroyed weapon in Lineage II that a customer was sueing to have restored.
Bottom line is the courts just kind of make it up as they go along. Maybe it is time to appeal to a higher power and ask the Vatican Pope or something.
Originally writing this as a joke but it could be serious if someone asks the Islamic Sharia courts who owns virtual land. They would be forced to give a ruling.