You do not build a successful MMO by attacking your own community like this. Just ask Blizzard.
BTW this company is the reason Blizzard blatantly ripped off Warhammer in the 90s. Blizzard was interested in making an RTS game based on the Warhammer franchise and these guys basically said "F*** off".
This has NOTHING to do with the Warhammer MMO. And Games Workshop owns the Warhammer IP. It is theres. THEY decide what to do with it, not anyone else. Curse did something and recieved money using their name and images without permission or consent. They deserve to be sued.
Games Workshop has long had a history of near fascist like protection of their IP and copyright. They have shut down NUMEROUS fansites for their games over the years, not just for the video games, but the miniature games as well. They have always kind of been the Microsoft of the gaming industry, imo.
Just before FFG released their new version of the Warhammer Fantasy RPG, a bunch of fan websites for the first and second editions (who were not making money at GW's expense) received cease and desist notices. Every so often, you can count on GW to totally hose over their fans.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Maybe it's just me but I don't see the GW case as having *any* basis.
I don't see any copyrighted trade-dress on Warhammer Alliance site. On a quick scan, I don't even see any trademarks. Using proxies for domain registration is common to prevent spam (and does not prevent contacting the owner via the proxy).
Furthermore, GW's trademark of the Warhammer name should be *far* more narrowly defined than most trademarks (if it was even awarded in the first place) as warhammer is a common word that was also in usage in the same industry prior to GW's creation of Warhammer.
GW deserves the nickname Game$ Work$hop. I'm sure some googling would turn up a long history of frivolous suits they've filed against various companies over the years (and some valid suits too). The case that proves the point though is two-fold:
1) Official event rules require (or used to anyway) the proper current figure to be used (and painted in an approved way). Of course, GW retires figures every year and comes out with new ones just to force people to buy new ones.
2) The mini prices are mostly based on how effective the unit is in the games and not remotely related to the price to manufacture the mini.
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft
You do not build a successful MMO by attacking your own community like this. Just ask Blizzard.
BTW this company is the reason Blizzard blatantly ripped off Warhammer in the 90s. Blizzard was interested in making an RTS game based on the Warhammer franchise and these guys basically said "F*** off".
Just to clarify a bit, it wasn't a blatant ripoff (i.e. Blizzard didn't just go out and do it on their own): GW initially had Blizzard work on a Warhammer RTS. GW then decided that they did not like what Blizzard had made, and walked away. Blizzard then slapped a new name on it, and launched it as Warcraft instead of Warhammer. That is why all the artwork and such resembles that of GW; it was originally supposed to be a GW game.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Maybe it's just me but I don't see the GW case as having *any* basis.
I don't see any copyrighted trade-dress on Warhammer Alliance site. On a quick scan, I don't even see any trademarks. Using proxies for domain registration is common to prevent spam (and does not prevent contacting the owner via the proxy).
Furthermore, GW's trademark of the Warhammer name should be *far* more narrowly defined than most trademarks (if it was even awarded in the first place) as warhammer is a common word that was also in usage in the same industry prior to GW's creation of Warhammer.
GW deserves the nickname Game$ Work$hop. I'm sure some googling would turn up a long history of frivolous suits they've filed against various companies over the years (and some valid suits too). The case that proves the point though is two-fold:
1) Official event rules require (or used to anyway) the proper current figure to be used (and painted in an approved way). Of course, GW retires figures every year and comes out with new ones just to force people to buy new ones.
2) The mini prices are mostly based on how effective the unit is in the games and not remotely related to the price to manufacture the mini.
Your two points just show that they, like most companies, try to find ways to maximize profits. Really whether or not the case has merit will come down to who can prove what. If GW can show that Curse was using GW icons and such, and made a profit from the Warhammer name, then the case is valid. On the other hand if Curse can show that they had contacted GW and negotiated the looks of the websites (from saved e-mails and such), and can show that they do not make money directly off of GW IP, then they will win.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Furthermore, GW's trademark of the Warhammer name should be *far* more narrowly defined than most trademarks (if it was even awarded in the first place) as warhammer is a common word that was also in usage in the same industry prior to GW's creation of Warhammer.
GW deserves the nickname Game$ Work$hop. I'm sure some googling would turn up a long history of frivolous suits they've filed against various companies over the years (and some valid suits too). The case that proves the point though is two-fold:
1) Official event rules require (or used to anyway) the proper current figure to be used (and painted in an approved way). Of course, GW retires figures every year and comes out with new ones just to force people to buy new ones.
2) The mini prices are mostly based on how effective the unit is in the games and not remotely related to the price to manufacture the mini.
OMG, another company which wants to make as much money as humanly possible? Weird...
Originally posted by Lizard_SF Law is about law, and if you're going to hold forth on whether or not a lawsuit is justified, why not study the laws involved and make a judgment based on THAT, instead of what you wish "should" happen? Is that just too much work?
Welcome to the forums mate.
If we can somehow find a way to convert Stupid into raw energy, I'll make a lolrocket fueled by the posts here and launch myself to Mars.
What little I do know about intellectual property is that the owner can decide who can use it and how it is to be used. Which in this case GW indeed does have a case against curse. Since they are the owners of the IP they have the right to decide that they do not like how curse is using their IP and hence want it removed.
Law is about law, and if you're going to hold forth on whether or not a lawsuit is justified, why not study the laws involved and make a judgment based on THAT, instead of what you wish "should" happen? Is that just too much work?
Welcome to the forums mate.
If we can somehow find a way to convert Stupid into raw energy, I'll make a lolrocket fueled by the posts here and launch myself to Mars.
I hear the rocks there are pretty smart.
I agree Vagrant. If you get your lolrocket working, lemme borrow it. My roflcopter broke down as I was reading this thread.
I'm with GW. Blizzard STOLE almost all of it's ideas from GW games. Where's the outcry over that? The only reason people played warcraft is because there was no Warhammer RTS and the only reason why anyone would deny it is because they are Blizzard fanboys who weren't even born when Warhammer was created. If you knew anything about GW or Warhammer you'd know that the name "Warhammer Alliance" Is trademarked and has been for years. Whatever these wow trolls might say out of their own retarded ignorance, war has gained players and wow has lost players. Stfu and play the ENDLESS trial before talking shit about things you know nothing about.
People don't give a shit where companies get their ideas. They played Warcraft because it's a good game. Most of the things Warhammer was built on came from other sources anyway, just like everything else. Let me know when Warhammer gets to twelve million subscriptions or even one million subscriptions and you can start talking about Warhammer numbers. I play the endless trial and it's beer and pretzels just like their miniatures game. There's nothing special there.
In case you aven't noticed Blizzard doesn't have a dog in this fight.
Honestly if they borrowed it was from like the dude said before "Mythology", and possibly some D&D and Tolkien. Yet, the whole style is much different than any of those and they didn't completely rob it. Blizzard was going to make the Warhammer rts "Warcraft". Games Workshop says no, so Blizzard just changes stuff around and releases their own. Plus, the warhammer mmo although I do play it has nothing to do with this. The failure that Warhammer Online has been is all EA and Mythic not Games Workshop and the true Warhammer IP which is an awesome IP that has been around since the eighties.
Actually, Blizzard and Game Workshop were going to make Warhammer...but Game Workshop didn't like the "quality" of the game while it was in developement and pulled the IP [Warhammer] so Blizzard made some changes and released Warcraft; ultimately roflstomping GW's one-chance grab at cash.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.
Basicly GW is just protecting their brand. If Curse makes money on that brand its not a fansite anymore, its a company. As its a company it should have separate permission to use the brand ( usually involves licence fee ) Reading through the info one can see that GW tried to contact Curse through the given links on Curse website and did not succeed, they also checked the domain info to contact Curse but its registered anonymously via " Domains by Proxy "
So GW tried to contact Curse, Curse gave a big FU via having incorrect contact information and hidden the domain info. In the corporate world this can be seen as very suspicious activity and GW sees it as purposefully trying to conceal the identities of the owners.. Since Curse didn't want to "discuss the issue", GW is just raising the stakes.
This kind of stuff is normal in the corporate world but often media, ike this site too brings this kind of info as a sensational issue to people that have no clue what actually is going on and causes more harm than it benefits anyone.
GW is just protecting their property and trying to get Curse to the negotiation table. I'm no GW fan tho but this is what any company should do to protect its brand or products.
I am wondering, whether the Terms of Use of WHA back when it was a fansite, mentioned that our personal details could be used from 3rd parties for commercial reasons (i.e. sold)?
IF YES, doesn't that automatically cancel the whole lawsuit and furthurmore puts in question G.W.'s ownership of Warhammer IP for the simple reason they didn't forced it back then even if there was commercial use or at least intention for it?
IF NO, doesn't the action of selling that fansite violate the Terms of Use which are the only ones we had agreed?
In short, either someone stole (=used them without proper permission) our accounts in WHA, or G.W. wasn't careful enough back then when they let the site run with a Disclaimer they provided but without actually checking the Terms of Use of the site.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Law is about law, and if you're going to hold forth on whether or not a lawsuit is justified, why not study the laws involved and make a judgment based on THAT, instead of what you wish "should" happen? Is that just too much work?
Welcome to the forums mate.
If we can somehow find a way to convert Stupid into raw energy, I'll make a lolrocket fueled by the posts here and launch myself to Mars.
I hear the rocks there are pretty smart.
I agree Vagrant. If you get your lolrocket working, lemme borrow it. My roflcopter broke down as I was reading this thread.
Do they really want to kill off whatever community is left of this game? they have no idea how many players they are going to piss off with this. More players use Warhammer alliance compared to official forums.
Perhaps. A properly done Warhammer MMO would rake in the cash, killing off the current one so they can then lisence out or co-produce one in the future would be a good business move on the money making front.
However, this isnt about Warhammer online the game, its about a profit making former fan site.
This is not a surprise. Games Workshop has always been rabid about protecting their IP. They didn't survive for 30+yrs by allowing 3rd parties to profit off using the Warhammer name for nothing.
Basically Games Worksop HAVE to try stop others using their copyrighted trademarks. If they DONT TRY, then in the law they will LOSE the trademark COMPLETEY.
Then ANY other BUSINESS could come and publish all their games for that businesses OWN profit.
It's weird legal stuff.
So though the fansite isnt makign any profit - if they went on using their trademarks for a numebr of years without GW asking them to remove them, it is in the eyes of the LAW tantamount to a tacit admission form GW that they no longer wish to retiain rights over their IP.
I dont understand. Can someone break it down to stupid level for me...........
From what I gathered Curse is making money off the fansite and that is 'against the rules' for fansites. On a more personal note, they may want the domain name for future projects but that's just a guess.
They also likely want to kill the WAR to free up licensing options. Most IP contracts include some sort of stipulation that if something fails and is no longer maintained by the company the licensing IP then the license can be revoked without penalty.
No idea on the specifics of their IP license specifically mind you.
Comments
Just before FFG released their new version of the Warhammer Fantasy RPG, a bunch of fan websites for the first and second editions (who were not making money at GW's expense) received cease and desist notices. Every so often, you can count on GW to totally hose over their fans.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Maybe it's just me but I don't see the GW case as having *any* basis.
I don't see any copyrighted trade-dress on Warhammer Alliance site. On a quick scan, I don't even see any trademarks. Using proxies for domain registration is common to prevent spam (and does not prevent contacting the owner via the proxy).
Furthermore, GW's trademark of the Warhammer name should be *far* more narrowly defined than most trademarks (if it was even awarded in the first place) as warhammer is a common word that was also in usage in the same industry prior to GW's creation of Warhammer.
GW deserves the nickname Game$ Work$hop. I'm sure some googling would turn up a long history of frivolous suits they've filed against various companies over the years (and some valid suits too). The case that proves the point though is two-fold:
1) Official event rules require (or used to anyway) the proper current figure to be used (and painted in an approved way). Of course, GW retires figures every year and comes out with new ones just to force people to buy new ones.
2) The mini prices are mostly based on how effective the unit is in the games and not remotely related to the price to manufacture the mini.
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
Retired: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Auto Assault (beta), CoH/CoV, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeon Runners, Elder Scrolls Online, Everquest, EVE, Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online (beta,live), Pathfinder Online (beta), Rift (beta,live), Secret World (beta,live), Star Wars Old Republic, Vanguard (beta), Warhammer (beta,live), World of Warcraft
Frivolous lawsuit is frivolous.
Just to clarify a bit, it wasn't a blatant ripoff (i.e. Blizzard didn't just go out and do it on their own): GW initially had Blizzard work on a Warhammer RTS. GW then decided that they did not like what Blizzard had made, and walked away. Blizzard then slapped a new name on it, and launched it as Warcraft instead of Warhammer. That is why all the artwork and such resembles that of GW; it was originally supposed to be a GW game.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Your two points just show that they, like most companies, try to find ways to maximize profits. Really whether or not the case has merit will come down to who can prove what. If GW can show that Curse was using GW icons and such, and made a profit from the Warhammer name, then the case is valid. On the other hand if Curse can show that they had contacted GW and negotiated the looks of the websites (from saved e-mails and such), and can show that they do not make money directly off of GW IP, then they will win.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
OMG, another company which wants to make as much money as humanly possible? Weird...
Welcome to the forums mate.
If we can somehow find a way to convert Stupid into raw energy, I'll make a lolrocket fueled by the posts here and launch myself to Mars.
I hear the rocks there are pretty smart.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
What little I do know about intellectual property is that the owner can decide who can use it and how it is to be used. Which in this case GW indeed does have a case against curse. Since they are the owners of the IP they have the right to decide that they do not like how curse is using their IP and hence want it removed.
i had a website named bloodbowlesp.com time ago, GW sent me a letter to put it down, or go to the courts. Thats the ppl we dealing with.
I agree Vagrant. If you get your lolrocket working, lemme borrow it. My roflcopter broke down as I was reading this thread.
Honestly if they borrowed it was from like the dude said before "Mythology", and possibly some D&D and Tolkien. Yet, the whole style is much different than any of those and they didn't completely rob it. Blizzard was going to make the Warhammer rts "Warcraft". Games Workshop says no, so Blizzard just changes stuff around and releases their own. Plus, the warhammer mmo although I do play it has nothing to do with this. The failure that Warhammer Online has been is all EA and Mythic not Games Workshop and the true Warhammer IP which is an awesome IP that has been around since the eighties.
Actually, Blizzard and Game Workshop were going to make Warhammer...but Game Workshop didn't like the "quality" of the game while it was in developement and pulled the IP [Warhammer] so Blizzard made some changes and released Warcraft; ultimately roflstomping GW's one-chance grab at cash.
Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.
Everyone knows Games Workshop are a bunch of wankers right?
Basicly GW is just protecting their brand. If Curse makes money on that brand its not a fansite anymore, its a company. As its a company it should have separate permission to use the brand ( usually involves licence fee ) Reading through the info one can see that GW tried to contact Curse through the given links on Curse website and did not succeed, they also checked the domain info to contact Curse but its registered anonymously via " Domains by Proxy "
So GW tried to contact Curse, Curse gave a big FU via having incorrect contact information and hidden the domain info. In the corporate world this can be seen as very suspicious activity and GW sees it as purposefully trying to conceal the identities of the owners.. Since Curse didn't want to "discuss the issue", GW is just raising the stakes.
This kind of stuff is normal in the corporate world but often media, ike this site too brings this kind of info as a sensational issue to people that have no clue what actually is going on and causes more harm than it benefits anyone.
GW is just protecting their property and trying to get Curse to the negotiation table. I'm no GW fan tho but this is what any company should do to protect its brand or products.
I am wondering, whether the Terms of Use of WHA back when it was a fansite, mentioned that our personal details could be used from 3rd parties for commercial reasons (i.e. sold)?
IF YES, doesn't that automatically cancel the whole lawsuit and furthurmore puts in question G.W.'s ownership of Warhammer IP for the simple reason they didn't forced it back then even if there was commercial use or at least intention for it?
IF NO, doesn't the action of selling that fansite violate the Terms of Use which are the only ones we had agreed?
In short, either someone stole (=used them without proper permission) our accounts in WHA, or G.W. wasn't careful enough back then when they let the site run with a Disclaimer they provided but without actually checking the Terms of Use of the site.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
You three win 2 internets each
/salute
Perhaps. A properly done Warhammer MMO would rake in the cash, killing off the current one so they can then lisence out or co-produce one in the future would be a good business move on the money making front.
However, this isnt about Warhammer online the game, its about a profit making former fan site.
This is not a surprise. Games Workshop has always been rabid about protecting their IP. They didn't survive for 30+yrs by allowing 3rd parties to profit off using the Warhammer name for nothing.
quick answer - PLEASE READ THIS.
Basically Games Worksop HAVE to try stop others using their copyrighted trademarks. If they DONT TRY, then in the law they will LOSE the trademark COMPLETEY.
Then ANY other BUSINESS could come and publish all their games for that businesses OWN profit.
It's weird legal stuff.
So though the fansite isnt makign any profit - if they went on using their trademarks for a numebr of years without GW asking them to remove them, it is in the eyes of the LAW tantamount to a tacit admission form GW that they no longer wish to retiain rights over their IP.
So GW HAS TO DO THIS.
(had this same issue with a certain fansaty football site recently)
and PS - all the ignorant haters are real lame
They also likely want to kill the WAR to free up licensing options. Most IP contracts include some sort of stipulation that if something fails and is no longer maintained by the company the licensing IP then the license can be revoked without penalty.
No idea on the specifics of their IP license specifically mind you.