Lovesurgeon: I think your ability to comprehend text are limited, so I will explain to you something in clear terms.
When someone claims "this is a good option and can be done in high sec space" but that is in WH space, then that isn't in high sec. Period
no buts, no ifs, no maybes, no "you want everything in high sec moron" explanations.
We speak about a fact there.
When I said it is important to reduce rewards in high sec PVE and make risk vs reward ratio better in low sec that isn't watning to see the same rewards in high sec but I statement that in high sec options are designed to be limited and right now the risk vs rewards for low sec is one of the key issues identified by CSMs and CCP and an issue that prevents many people from moving to low sec to keep playing.
Do not conjure and inject implied insults such as the highlighted text above.
You do a pretty good job of talking out both sides of your mouth. On one hand you claim to want to reduce rewards and increase risk in high sec space yet you complain about gatecamps with comments like:
"And easy to fix gatecamps at entrace: If you stay in 100km range from a gaate you could have a 2 minutes "concord protection timer", leaving this area would mean losing protection." -Enerla
It appears as if you want to reduce some of the rewards of high sec all while drastically reducing the risk in low sec.
Edit:
Isn't it time you let this thread highjack of yours go now ? Go make your suggestions over on the Eve Suggestion forums.
In low sec, the risks wouldn't be reduced that much, but at entrance to low sec it would be reduced. If gatecamping at entrances wouldn't work, most people wouldn't stay away from low sec.
You would have plenty of targets to shot down, but their risks taken would be balanced out with some rewards. Since the pirates would have many targets, people would be able to defend themself, there would be meaningful bounty hunting that would add risks for pirates too,
Right now, most of low sec space are relatively safe, but entrances to low sec aren't. This is what should be changed.
Edit: "Your posts are nothing more than a typical high sec should be as profitable as 0.0 whine post. " conjure, implied, yeah, right...
Edit: "Your posts are nothing more than a typical high sec should be as profitable as 0.0 whine post. " conjure, implied, yeah, right...
That's right you responded to me first by questioning my ability to comprehend text and then made up a quote that looked almost like something I said and injected the word moron at the end therfore implying I insulted and attacked you, something which you have done a few times to a couple of people in thie thread that you have hijacked for your personal agenda and blog promotion.
I am now offically done with you, I will not be baited by your trolls so you can play the victim.
/thread back on topic
@ the OP / writer of this article if you even read past all the sewage in this thread.
I would like to know do you have any intentions of continuing the game after your 8 week article series is done or are you just writing this as part of your employment and you really could care less about the game once you are done ?
I would be shocked if you actually did respond here however.
If I would want to promote the blog, I would post a lot more links, but I have no intention to repeat several pages long stuff there because you hate links, which is a functionality in this site for a reason.
You yourself "implied" what I want, and was wrong at it.
You confused a stated fact you didn't dispute with some made up interpretation of your ownand claimed my posts are nothing but your made up ideas I think, I didn't have to "conjure" "implined" insults there.
When you decide that people who ask for lower reward for high sec can be bashed by claiming he posts a typical whine that wants the opposite thing to bash another person, and fail to recognize facts and twist and bennd everything to attack with your style, then you shouldn't be surprised to get comments about you.
Because your behavior is what defines a troll.
It is simple as that.
The if you are wrong, you claim the other people spokjen for something else, and try to discredit the recognized facts that way since you cannot and won't have any intelligent discussion.
Edit: And I think everyone over 6 years of age has the ability to comprehend, survival in eve if keep playing eve the key question is, can real players survive long enough to see enough of eve, and the times where most people leave are on topic there. "how everyone who don't like or see people do quit often and mention it must be a wow fan and should be based" way is hijacking the thread.
In the same time, certain things aren't possible in high sec. If you are a pure industry characters, a lot of stuff is out of reach for you. I don't see if they have given up on trying to move people out of high sec.
In high sec your enemies are hard coded, the services you can use are built into game, etc. it isn't the "sandbox" where your decisions shape the world.
Outposts, "huge" starships assembled in space, etc. are all moving us towards low sec, etc.
ISK / hour I don't care about. But if I would love to afford a BPO and make some ships, I see if I can reach my goal in reasonable time and this is where risk vs reward is important.
If you need standings to be able to refine and manufacture perfectly, and don't like agent missions but have to run them for standings since you can't afford to hire a mission runner then ISK becomes important.
Dude you ramble on and on so much that I don't even know what the hell your problem with Eve is.
You seem like a disgruntled low sec player (even that im not sure about).
Or maybe a High sec players not able to make enough isk (again i could be wrong).
Maybe you could explain how you would fix Eve to suit YOU because this is obviously why your bitching, noone goes on and on like this if they arent butt hurt in some way and feel they are treated unfairly.
So please enlighten me, what do you want CCP to do? Im really tired of your back and forth get get to the point, voice your opinion and gtfo please!
Dude you ramble on and on so much that I don't even know what the hell your problem with Eve is.
You seem like a disgruntled low sec player (even that im not sure about).
Or maybe a High sec players not able to make enough isk (again i could be wrong).
Maybe you could explain how you would fix Eve to suit YOU because this is obviously why your bitching, noone goes on and on like this if they arent butt hurt in some way and feel they are treated unfairly.
So please enlighten me, what do you want CCP to do? Im really tired of your back and forth get get to the point, voice your opinion and gtfo please!
No, I tend to train newbies and I an unhappy because they regularly leave eve behind for same reason under same circumstances.
But as I said: I would try to stop "permanent" gatecamps at gates between high sec and low sec boudary to make low sec accessible to more, but make sure risks inside low sec would stay.
Would add the price of all exploded items as bounty on pirates and people who destroy the ship, or clone of pirates would get 50% of losses by the pirate as bounty to make bounty hunter profession in low sec space viable. And remove insurance for - sec status people.
Would add a system similar to development in 0.0 for development in high sec, in undeveloped system concord response, etc would be reduced. Same as station services, LP store and market supplies. Only a few newbie systems would be unaffected. The difference in security between 0.5 and 0.4 would be less important than the difference between 1.0 and 0.5 with the system. (Ability to reduce security of systems indirectly can be a dramatic increase for risks)
Would add "extra" enemies to missions at lower sec systems.
Would make sure that mining/industry and agent runing gives comparable rewards (and miners, etc. don't have to run a lot of agent missions to get standing for a jump clone)
Edit: Forgot to mention unique BPO research to make sure player (and player corp) created items should be "top of the line" but of course items comparable to officer loot would need a pos in 0.0 to create...
Back and forth cannot be avoided if some people try to put different goals to my mouth and have to explain things repeatedly. I can stress, my problem is simple: I love to help and train people, have a support role, but if a lot of new players disappointed with the game (regardless of who trained them) and for same reasons that makes me a bit unhappy and waiting for changes.
As a player for going on 6 years I have pretty much done it all in EVE. During that time I have taken a few breaks from the game and spent that time playing WOW, to the point where I have 5 lvl 80 toons so its safe to say I gained alot of experience playing WOW as well. Now to compare the two games is rediculous. WOW has its good points that make it fun to play, be it conquering a dungeon with your friends or winning a battleground in pvp. The thing is that WOW is bent more towards a wider age range than EVE is as how many kids would stop playing WOW if dying meant loosing all your gear or loosing a certain city to the other faction meant not being able to sit on your favorite mount and spam trade chat from that location any more.
Yes EVE is harsh and can test your patience to the utmost which is why I believe it to be more of an adult game (kids rarely have patience). If you are posting a comment praising WOW over EVE its mainly because of the pvp involved which leads me to believe you are either bad at pvp or dont understand the mechanics of it. The people who make these comments probably dont know they are "carebears" and are probably better off playing WOW as 90% of the people who play WOW are truely "carebears". I didnt go and play WOW expecting it to be like EVE so for gods sake dont come into EVE expecting everyone to admire your ship without someone wanting to kill it.
No, I tend to train newbies and I an unhappy because they regularly leave eve behind for same reason under same circumstances.
But as I said: I would try to stop "permanent" gatecamps at gates between high sec and low sec boudary to make low sec accessible to more, but make sure risks inside low sec would stay.
Would add the price of all exploded items as bounty on pirates and people who destroy the ship, or clone of pirates would get 50% of losses by the pirate as bounty to make bounty hunter profession in low sec space viable. And remove insurance for - sec status people.
Would add a system similar to development in 0.0 for development in high sec, in undeveloped system concord response, etc would be reduced. Same as station services, LP store and market supplies. Only a few newbie systems would be unaffected. The difference in security between 0.5 and 0.4 would be less important than the difference between 1.0 and 0.5 with the system. (Ability to reduce security of systems indirectly can be a dramatic increase for risks)
Would add "extra" enemies to missions at lower sec systems.
Would make sure that mining/industry and agent runing gives comparable rewards (and miners, etc. don't have to run a lot of agent missions to get standing for a jump clone)
Edit: Forgot to mention unique BPO research to make sure player (and player corp) created items should be "top of the line" but of course items comparable to officer loot would need a pos in 0.0 to create...
Back and forth cannot be avoided if some people try to put different goals to my mouth and have to explain things repeatedly. I can stress, my problem is simple: I love to help and train people, have a support role, but if a lot of new players disappointed with the game (regardless of who trained them) and for same reasons that makes me a bit unhappy and waiting for changes.
Ok I know I said I was done with you but since this is the first actual reasonable and clearly written post I have seen from you I will share a few thoughts with you.
First off I can tell you are very much an industrialist and your ideas regarding improvements in that respect are very good.
Now having given credit where it was due it's time for some criscism and I will keep it honest and constructive.
Your thoughts on bounty hunting do not even start to approach the problems with it. Adding more bounty to the pirate from items blown up is a useless mechanic and here is why. Pirates do not care how much bounty is on their head, it's a badge of honor for them. They want it high as possible so once it gets high enough to cover their clone and implants they simpley use an alt to pod kill him and collect the bounty. Adding the cost of items to their bounty is just incentive for them to simpley blow up everything in sight instead of playing a proper pirate and ransoming ships. If you want to punish the pirate for blowing up your ship make more items go pop when blow up by someone with low security, even that would be silly though. Your ideas don't help the bounty hunter profession at all.
Bounty Hunters as a profession need more tools made available to them such as better location agents with better accuracy and speed of notifications. Bounty hunters should have special a license, modules and or ships made available to them to help catch a pirate, ships with modules and bonuses to things like warp disruptors and webs out to 100k as an example (just an example that could probably use a lot of tweaking) Bounty Hunter licenses should only be available to players with an extremely high security status (4.5+ for example) Along with high rank skills needed to train to use the special ships and modules.
100km Concord Zone around gates is also a terrible idea and here is why. You would make travel in low sec 99% safe just as it is in high sec now. Your solution here would make it so the true high sec carebears are willing to go into low sec but they still will not go into the belts or do missions or plexes because that is where the pirates will hunt them. You do nothing to populate low sec but everything to make travel through it safe and punish piracy as a profession.
Combine that with your very pro NPC solutions to certain problems with the game and your very quick snarky and pissy attitude and it isn't hard for people to think you are coming off as a high sec carebear wanting all the rewards and benefits of high and low sec with none of the risk and work involved. Just get off your high horse about how Eve is evolving and CCP needs to listen to the players more to be sucessful like those "other" games.
Just my personal thoughts here and nothing in response to you.
In Eve when there is a problem with game balance or design flaw it is always preferable to solve the problem by giving the players tools necessary to address the problems, not adding in more arbitrary NPC rules and regulations. That is not to say that some solutions don't require simple NPC type fixes but only when absolutely necessary. Remember the goal of Eve is one day be eventually NPC free as much as possible and where applicable.
You missunderstood one part of idea: With bounty hunting since you wouldn't get a single payout for pod killing, but you would get payout based on how much value is lost by the pirate and only 50% of his uninsured loses... he wouldn't blow himself up, since he would get nothing from the bounties.
But attacking a seasoned pirate would give you better rewards than attacking a carebear (risk vs reward) , which would make them better target for an average PVPer, your idea of more modules, agents based on requirements could be a good addition.
Traveling in low sec wouldn't be safe since the protection would be only for the high-sec low sec border on the 2nd jump he wouldn't be safer.
You missunderstood one part of idea: With bounty hunting since you wouldn't get a single payout for pod killing, but you would get payout based on how much value is lost by the pirate and only 50% of his uninsured loses... he wouldn't blow himself up, since he would get nothing from the bounties.
But attacking a seasoned pirate would give you better rewards than attacking a carebear (risk vs reward) , which would make them better target for an average PVPer, your idea of more modules, agents based on requirements could be a good addition.
Traveling in low sec wouldn't be safe since the protection would be only for the high-sec low sec border on the 2nd jump he wouldn't be safer.
You are still ignoring the real problems with bounty hunting though. It has little to nothing to do with risk and reward on its own for the players. It has everything to do with the difficulty in catching a pirate because of current game mechanics. POD killing someone outside of a 0.0 bubble is very difficult unless the person is a noob or having a serious lag issue. It just isn't worth the hassle and time involved to try and catch a pirate with a bounty worth hunting.
So you make the first jump into low sec and theres Concord protected gates, all you are doing now is moving the gate camps one system deeper. Now all you are doing is letting new players enter and travel to stations in that first system but they still will not want to enter belts or missions and plexes in any low sec system.
Improving the bounty hunters tools and rewards would allow them to actively hunt and keep low sec relatively clear thus in return making it safer for new players and corps to now populate low sec for missions and mining ops with more safety than they have now.
Edit:
In response to your 2nd paragraph. The way it's worded is a little confusing. Are you saying that a bounty hunter would attack a pirate or a new player or are you saying a pirate would attack another pirate rather than a new player ? Some clarification here would be helpful but for now I will go with the thought that you want pirates to attack other pirates. If this is the case then you are under the assumption that pirates are looking for fair and evenly matched PvP fights when this is simpley not the case, pirates are out for easy prey they don't want to risk their ship needlessly, remember this is how they are supposed to make their money (even though we all know they make their money just like everyone else.)
As one of the other responders to the thread mentioned, it seems that these conversations always get off-track from what the OP writes about. I share in that, sorry.
I believe that he [OP] is simply doing his "eight weeks" as a work assignment and I'd be suprised if continues playing the game, in a dedicated way, after that period is over. In a nutshell, it just seems like he wanted to push the limits and see how far he could get in the game with the eight-week timespan. It also sounds like he's of the culture that if you don't have someone, or some people, to play with, then you might as well end the misery by getting a gun out and shooting yourself dead.
While there were many different "tracks" that he could have taken on his eight-week journey, I don't care much for his dire need to be part of a Corp. so soon (but of course, he only has eight weeks...). I don't think he pushed himself to really figure out EVE, and what was really available to him. It just sounded like he wanted to go and blow things up which sounds like a favorite for many people (I'm not a pacifist or anything like that, I've done it too). Maybe this is why there are so many WoW vs. EVE discussions that continue to crop up - the parallel is there, in principle, not the mechanics of it all - either blow things up in space, or kill things in a dungeon.
I have respect for people who push themselves to research, find something out, or figure out how something is supposed to work, on their own - this show's resourcefulness, tenacity, a no-quit attitude which is what I'd be impressed with if I were recruiting for my Corp. I have NO respect, however, for the person who hits the first bump in the road on their project and immediately reaches for the phone, or asks the guy in the next cubicle, to get the answer to something that they should be figuring out on their own. These types will never learn anything of value, since they'll always be looking for a hand-out from someone else who has done the hard, knuckle-grinding, back-breaking, blood, sweat, and tears-type research and work. The satisfaction (or proverbial pat-on-the-back) that you get is when you figure it all out on your own.
And now, on a different track - I've seen the posts on the gatecamps. You know, you have to be one low-life, scum-sucking, coward to sit behind a gate and pop people when they're just coming out of warp. The only time I would ever justify a gatecamp would be if you were defending your Sovereign Space from an attack by an invading, hostile force that is coming to take your territory and POS from you. Otherwise, space travel should be open and free. If you want to travel to low-sec or null-sec it can still be full or risk but I wouldn't allow gatecamps. But since most gatecampers are griefers and people of sick and evil character, then I guess that will never stop unless the devs. change the game at some later time. I side with the individual in this thread that said if gatecamps were made harder or, put off by Concord, then more high-sec people (or carebears) would venture out in the low/null-sec - I think that's right. And I don't think they'd just stop there - they'd go on to mining and maybe even taking on pirates and scum-suckers but, at least it wouldn't be while they're sitting there in a moment of defenseless lag, just coming out of warp, while five, ten, twenty, or more ships all open fire on one target - you have to be a pretty sick person to participate in something like that - and ya, you can pat yourself on the back for it, you're a real tough guy.
As one of the other responders to the thread mentioned, it seems that these conversations always get off-track from what the OP writes about. I share in that, sorry.
I believe that he [OP] is simply doing his "eight weeks" as a work assignment and I'd be suprised if continues playing the game, in a dedicated way, after that period is over. In a nutshell, it just seems like he wanted to push the limits and see how far he could get in the game with the eight-week timespan. It also sounds like he's of the culture that if you don't have someone, or some people, to play with, then you might as well end the misery by getting a gun out and shooting yourself dead.
While there were many different "tracks" that he could have taken on his eight-week journey, I don't care much for his dire need to be part of a Corp. so soon (but of course, he only has eight weeks...). I don't think he pushed himself to really figure out EVE, and what was really available to him. It just sounded like he wanted to go and blow things up which sounds like a favorite for many people (I'm not a pacifist or anything like that, I've done it too). Maybe this is why there are so many WoW vs. EVE discussions that continue to crop up - the parallel is there, in principle, not the mechanics of it all - either blow things up in space, or kill things in a dungeon.
I have respect for people who push themselves to research, find something out, or figure out how something is supposed to work, on their own - this show's resourcefulness, tenacity, a no-quit attitude which is what I'd be impressed with if I were recruiting for my Corp. I have NO respect, however, for the person who hits the first bump in the road on their project and immediately reaches for the phone, or asks the guy in the next cubicle, to get the answer to something that they should be figuring out on their own. These types will never learn anything of value, since they'll always be looking for a hand-out from someone else who has done the hard, knuckle-grinding, back-breaking, blood, sweat, and tears-type research and work. The satisfaction (or proverbial pat-on-the-back) that you get is when you figure it all out on your own.
And now, on a different track - I've seen the posts on the gatecamps. You know, you have to be one low-life, scum-sucking, coward to sit behind a gate and pop people when they're just coming out of warp. The only time I would ever justify a gatecamp would be if you were defending your Sovereign Space from an attack by an invading, hostile force that is coming to take your territory and POS from you. Otherwise, space travel should be open and free. If you want to travel to low-sec or null-sec it can still be full or risk but I wouldn't allow gatecamps. But since most gatecampers are griefers and people of sick and evil character, then I guess that will never stop unless the devs. change the game at some later time. I side with the individual in this thread that said if gatecamps were made harder or, put off by Concord, then more high-sec people (or carebears) would venture out in the low/null-sec - I think that's right. And I don't think they'd just stop there - they'd go on to mining and maybe even taking on pirates and scum-suckers but, at least it wouldn't be while they're sitting there in a moment of defenseless lag, just coming out of warp, while five, ten, twenty, or more ships all open fire on one target - you have to be a pretty sick person to participate in something like that - and ya, you can pat yourself on the back for it, you're a real tough guy.
"Live long and proper"
Well said, except for your last paragraph.
Have you ever played Eve and more specifically if you have since warp to zero was introduced ?
If your answer is no to these questions then allow a little education in how the game works here.
I will only be talking in the context of low sec and not null sec since warp bubbles and heavy interdictors add a very different mechanic to the gate camps. These bubbles are not usable in low sec.
You cannot simply blow someone up as they drop out of warp when they are incoming to a gate escpecially if they used "warp to 0" as this puts the player right on the gate ready to jump through thus avoiding the gate camp completely. If the player is doing the afk auto pilot they will be 15 km off and very much open game to be targeted and shot but then again they were afk auto piloting through low sec, don't do this. Getting a lock takes time and you need the lock before you can open fire.
The other direction of the gate camp is where some people tend to have problems. This is where a person jumping from high sec into a low sec system and there is a pirate waiting. At this point the player has a 30 second session timer which prevents them from running back to the gate and jump through but you also have a 60 second stealth timer. Thus you can wait out the session timer and burn back to the gate and back to safety, now of course depending on the size, speed and tank of your ship and the tackle capabilities of the pirate you may get caught and blown up before you get back. The difficulty here for the pirate is he is going to have to first get a lock on you in time to get enough damage on you to blow you up. The pirate is also going to be taking sentry gun fire therefore he needs a ship that can tank this. Now heres the dilemma for the pirate. He needs a ship that can lock fast, tank sentries and do enough damage in the time it takes for the potential target to get back to the gate. Small fast locking ships like interceptors and tech 1 cruisers will not be able to tank the sentrys and larger ships like battlecruisers and battleships are not capable of locking the target in time to do anything.
If the player is in a smaller fast to align ship there is no reason in the world he should not beable to just warp off to the next gate or to a station before being targeted and blown up thus the gatecamp fails.
Do you see how this is actually quite a challenge for players ? Gate camping pirates only get the careless or non educated in game mechanics. Gate camps are easily avoided, all you need is a small quick scout such as a frigate or shuttle and you damn near invulnerable. Teamwork of a whopping 2 people will make you 100% safe vs gatecamps, going solo into low sec with something big and slow like an industrial, battlecruiser or battleship will make you an easily locked and tackled target, but even then with a proper speed and buffer tank setup you shoud be able to make it back to the gate and into safety.
If you really believe adding the concord protection to the gates as suggested would encourage new players to go live in low sec to mine and do missions you are mistaken and here is why. Belt ratting, mining and doing missions will make those new players an even more vulnerable target. The pirates will now use scanning ships to scan you down and a cloaked tackler will warp in unknown to the "carebears" (i use this term with great reluctance here). The pirates will then warp in on top of them with quick locking dedicated tacklers and nuke them hardcore. The "carebear" corp will have to be watching local and using their overview scanner frequently to avoid being caught. All these things are very foreign to the new player and if they havn't figured out the basics of scouting and warp to 0 yet what makes you think they know how to use their overview scanner ? If they have to run then they just lost their mission or they will be losing time mining. Thus in the end they will return to high sec space where running level 4 missions will net nearly as much potential income with extremely little to no risk which is what the true carebears want.
"But since most gatecampers are griefers and people of sick and evil character, then I guess that will never stop unless the devs. change the game at some later time." -sparcdude
I quoted this line specifically for a reason. This kind of statment is the opinion of the uneducated in the ways of Eve and also very biased and prejudice. There is a very strong difference between a griefer and a gate camping pirate. A griefer is Eve is someone who sits outside new player starter system stations dropping cans labeled "free stuff" and when the new player takes it he is now flagged to be freely shot. This is simpley tricking the absolute new player and is a bannable offense. Gate camps are very easily avoided and thus you can protect yourself from it. You may not like it but it is not griefing. Remember this is Eve, clicking the button to undock is your consent to PvP and this will never change unless CCP wants an SWG on their hands, fortunately for us they havent even hinted at this ever being even a tiny thought in the back of some devs head somehere.
You mentioned above that space travel should be open and free. Well let me ask you this. How would you go about cutting off your enemies war supplies ?
I hope this long winded post explained some game mechanics to you and changed your opinion to understand why what you think would make life easier for new players would in fact make it even more difficult for them.
My final thought as I click post message.
It is too bad sometimes these threads get so off topic but then again what else are we really going to talk about in these threads ? Are we going to talk about the writers writing skills ? Nah that's boring and besides these types of threads are always in the general forum and linked from the main page and attracts the Eve trolls and haters very quickly to share their hatred and spread misinformation. It's this misinformation that gives potential new players the wrong impression of the game so the Eve fans come to defend against it and well you get threads like this. I think it would be wise on the part of the site and the articles writers to actually participate in these threads to help maintain some form of control instead of just sitting back and and modding the occasional post. As these articles are simply posted and forgotten by by the orignal writer they serve as nothing more than glorified sanctioned trollbait.
I know about the "mechanics" that you speak of Lovesurgeon but, if we're talking about two-week old noobs, they're not going to know this. They just simply want to explore the open space and travel to some other star systems - maybe go from one end of Eve universe to the other. What kind of a "threat" is a noob in an Ibis frigate going to pose, anyway? If they get blown to bits once they've gotten to a system and are just poking around belts, then that's the "cold, cruel, harsh space" that is Eve, and I don't think they'll simply quit the game because of that. But if they can't even get to some of the wide open spaces (because of the gatecamps), then that is what will discourage them for wanting to explore the game and see the magnitude of the Eve "space". And so what you end up with is, as you were reluctant to say, carebears. Or they join a Corp., dreaming of big things to come (kind of like the OP), and get disappointed time and again because the Corps they're getting into are merely taking them in to get ISK dues from them. Anyway, this convo could go back and forth for quite some time and what I was refering to in my previous post was the player who's got a number of months in the game already.
I'm not going to engage in a mud-slinging campaign on our differences of opinion between griefers and gatecampers. The supply-line issue is maybe how you justify it but, I don't think that's the general consensus amongst most of them.
Originally posted by Lovesurgeon You are still ignoring the real problems with bounty hunting though. It has little to nothing to do with risk and reward on its own for the players. It has everything to do with the difficulty in catching a pirate because of current game mechanics. POD killing someone outside of a 0.0 bubble is very difficult unless the person is a noob or having a serious lag issue. It just isn't worth the hassle and time involved to try and catch a pirate with a bounty worth hunting.
This is why, I suggeste a system where killing their ship gives some bounty, and repeatedly blowing up their ships by a nice roaming PVP gang would supply you a steady income. The bounty system is "flawed" since it requires a pod kill which isn't that feasible without bubbles. But what if insurance companies would pay good money for their ships too and wouldn't ever play more than the losses the pirate has to endure. Yes, if you would blow up their pod, that would be another set of destroyed property they lost and you would get bounties up to 50% of the value of their clone (no, no price from implants, friends of mr pirate won't help to get back half of the price of implants you want to replace). And of course, with agents sponsored by PC corporations (and insurance related NPC corps, concord, etc) they would offer job to stop PC pirates, and if you are on a such agent mission (it would be harder to get standing to such agents after you had - sec status than to get most sec status back) the location of the pirate would be in your journal. And the agent would choose a random nearby pirate for you and attacking a concord sanctioned bounty hunter mission targets in high sec space wouldn't trigger concord response. LP store of such corps could offer some nice "faction" scramblers, that would automatically scramble the pod if their target gets clown up but have limited charges (and cannot be traded, etc).
They should just make the BH system a pve mechanic.
Make it an incredibly challenging hunt that requires different skills to train, different ships to use that has you flying all over space finding a Named target that could actually kick ur ass if your fitted wrong lol.
It fails as a pvp mecanic because people are smart and they exploit.
Interesting how none of you even seem aware that the LARGEST PVP WAR probably EVER is on it's way in EVE as we speak!!!!
The southern coalition (collection of big null sec alliances) has launched a massive offensive with unheard logistical capabilities, running round the clock 23/7 fleet operations against the northern coalition. Starting the war last month april, my corp had more than 5000 kills in 4 weeks time with maybe only 20 active pvpers!!!!!!!
The war will probably have long lasting influence on the game, and affect the markets in a massive way!!! I am suprised how little high sec players know about what is going on in the rest of EVE. The sad thing is that high sec is the smallest game area, if all you ever do is stay there you will never get a taste of the "real" eve life. I would suggest at least taking a peak beyond high sec, and explore a little. The worst that can happen is that you get podded.
Interesting how none of you even seem aware that the LARGEST PVP WAR probably EVER is on it's way in EVE as we speak!!!!
The southern coalition (collection of big null sec alliances) has launched a massive offensive with unheard logistical capabilities, running round the clock 23/7 fleet operations against the northern coalition. Starting the war last month april, my corp had more than 5000 kills in 4 weeks time with maybe only 20 active pvpers!!!!!!!
The war will probably have long lasting influence on the game, and affect the markets in a massive way!!! I am suprised how little high sec players know about what is going on in the rest of EVE. The sad thing is that high sec is the smallest game area, if all you ever do is stay there you will never get a taste of the "real" eve life. I would suggest at least taking a peak beyond high sec, and explore a little. The worst that can happen is that you get podded.
I agree that people should take a peak and not stay in one area the entire time.
I disagree with the "real" Eve comment.
Eve can be whatever the player wants, 0.0 is actually experienced by a very small amount of the playerbase (20% of the pop at most). I wouldn't be calling that the "real" anything.
I know about the "mechanics" that you speak of Lovesurgeon but, if we're talking about two-week old noobs, they're not going to know this. They just simply want to explore the open space and travel to some other star systems - maybe go from one end of Eve universe to the other. What kind of a "threat" is a noob in an Ibis frigate going to pose, anyway? If they get blown to bits once they've gotten to a system and are just poking around belts, then that's the "cold, cruel, harsh space" that is Eve, and I don't think they'll simply quit the game because of that. But if they can't even get to some of the wide open spaces (because of the gatecamps), then that is what will discourage them for wanting to explore the game and see the magnitude of the Eve "space". And so what you end up with is, as you were reluctant to say, carebears. Or they join a Corp., dreaming of big things to come (kind of like the OP), and get disappointed time and again because the Corps they're getting into are merely taking them in to get ISK dues from them. Anyway, this convo could go back and forth for quite some time and what I was refering to in my previous post was the player who's got a number of months in the game already.
I'm not going to engage in a mud-slinging campaign on our differences of opinion between griefers and gatecampers. The supply-line issue is maybe how you justify it but, I don't think that's the general consensus amongst most of them.
'Later.
No one is slinging mud but you, you are the one calling gate campers griefing sick low life scum sucking cowards. You are the one generalizing a player who participates in a very legitimate form of gameplay within Eve.
What kind of a threat is a noob in an ibis ? I guess you really don't know about spying and the value of intel in Eve.
You want to get noobs into low sec and beyond which is fine but your supported Concord idea is way off the mark. You are changing nothing but the position of the buffer zone that is already there now. As I said before with your system noobs will maybe now enter low sec space but they won't move to and live in low sec which is the goal here is it not ? Noobs still wont rat, explore, mine or mission run in low sec because will get destroyed in the middle of their "fun" and run back to high sec once again like they are now.
You say noobs don't know the mechanics and again what does your supported system change ? Nothing, noobs will still have to learn the mechanics just like they do now.
You want safe travel in low sec ? Get a scout. Simple. God forbid you actually work with someone in the game like the gate camping pirates you obviously hate so much.
They should just make the BH system a pve mechanic.
Make it an incredibly challenging hunt that requires different skills to train, different ships to use that has you flying all over space finding a Named target that could actually kick ur ass if your fitted wrong lol.
It fails as a pvp mecanic because people are smart and they exploit.
How would you exploit the system I suggested?
By the way: We spoke about ISK / hour players, let me explain a few things.
Eve Online is an unique game partly because of PLEX. Why?
Latin America, Central and Eastern Europe, etc. special markets because a lot of people cannot pay for the game they want to play, an accepted credit card, the costs, etc are prohibitive for many people there. I don't want to repeat everything I said about these markets, but CCP handles these markets well. They handle these people well. These people choose EVE because they can pay their subscribtions with PLEX. Both initial advancement and steady income is important to keep these players.Remember the link to the post about a player from wow invited to eve? And how she tries to get a plex in 51 days to play on her 52th day?
As someone who tries to actively recruit more players for eve in one of such markets, for me it is important to let these players survive. I have financed about 6 PLEXes in last 1.5 month, for various new players to give them a chance in this game. Their game is very different from the game of someone who can finance loses an fitts by selling PLEX.
What is "you lost a ship, but you can finance it by a few $ spent on PLEX you sell in game" becomes "you cannot finance your next PLEX, game over".
(Sorry for linking content, but even if it makes you unhappy, you would see copying two articles in a post wouldn't be good for anyone)
You are still ignoring the real problems with bounty hunting though. It has little to nothing to do with risk and reward on its own for the players. It has everything to do with the difficulty in catching a pirate because of current game mechanics. POD killing someone outside of a 0.0 bubble is very difficult unless the person is a noob or having a serious lag issue. It just isn't worth the hassle and time involved to try and catch a pirate with a bounty worth hunting.
This is why, I suggeste a system where killing their ship gives some bounty, and repeatedly blowing up their ships by a nice roaming PVP gang would supply you a steady income. The bounty system is "flawed" since it requires a pod kill which isn't that feasible without bubbles. But what if insurance companies would pay good money for their ships too and wouldn't ever play more than the losses the pirate has to endure.
Yes, if you would blow up their pod, that would be another set of destroyed property they lost and you would get bounties up to 50% of the value of their clone (no, no price from implants, friends of mr pirate won't help to get back half of the price of implants you want to replace).
And of course, with agents sponsored by PC corporations (and insurance related NPC corps, concord, etc) they would offer job to stop PC pirates, and if you are on a such agent mission (it would be harder to get standing to such agents after you had - sec status than to get most sec status back) the location of the pirate would be in your journal. And the agent would choose a random nearby pirate for you and attacking a concord sanctioned bounty hunter mission targets in high sec space wouldn't trigger concord response. LP store of such corps could offer some nice "faction" scramblers, that would automatically scramble the pod if their target gets clown up but have limited charges (and cannot be traded, etc).
[/quote]
Well I am certainly not going to debate how to make a Bounty Hunting system work in the details. I was merely pointing out a better direction of solution to getting more players to live in low sec space than your proposed Concord Gate area.
Give the players the tools and rewards they need to patrol and clear the low sec systems rather than arbitrarily moving the supposed buffer between high and low sec.
If you got a good working Bounty Hunter system then by all means go post ont he Eve suggestion forums, they do read it and implement the good ones.
I would actually really love to see your Concord Gate proposal on the offical forums, please go post that over there and then come back and post the link, I could really use the chuckles at the quality of flames that thread would generate.
Interesting how none of you even seem aware that the LARGEST PVP WAR probably EVER is on it's way in EVE as we speak!!!!
The southern coalition (collection of big null sec alliances) has launched a massive offensive with unheard logistical capabilities, running round the clock 23/7 fleet operations against the northern coalition. Starting the war last month april, my corp had more than 5000 kills in 4 weeks time with maybe only 20 active pvpers!!!!!!!
The war will probably have long lasting influence on the game, and affect the markets in a massive way!!! I am suprised how little high sec players know about what is going on in the rest of EVE. The sad thing is that high sec is the smallest game area, if all you ever do is stay there you will never get a taste of the "real" eve life. I would suggest at least taking a peak beyond high sec, and explore a little. The worst that can happen is that you get podded.
I am aware of that war. And I am aware of how it influences my game. Since once you need more money to defend homeland, finance losses, etc. selling PLEX will be good for you, and I am thankful for the cheap PLEX many new hungarian players will get for the summer. Students who need it.
But lets see a few more things. While there are some "pay to get" guides, one of the best eve guides I seen is a hungarian guide, a nice looong PDF book, I know it will get a new version soon, with a lot of good updates, I think it is well over 300 pages. For me, that book is just as important news.
For me, it is important that the new vBadvanced Dynamics fo vBulletin 4 is in RC1 stage, since if it will reach "gold" stage, we can launch a hungarian eve database (I wouldn't put money in that if I would be anti eve). It will have missions, fits, etc. And at the same we try to promote Eve in a few ways. Say with an eve blog at blogs section of a major hungarian portal.
On a hungarian blogs about finance, etc. we had an article about why problems like credit crunch, crisis in greece is hard coded in the system (with internet a lot of people trade online without knowing much about what they trade, they only see the chart and it brings risks), and why using sandbox games for experiments about how market works can help to understand the markets... Such discussions are important for getting more people in eve. And making sure these players stay and this work is a good investment is just as important.
I would actually really love to see your Concord Gate proposal on the offical forums, please go post that over there and then come back and post the link, I could really use the chuckles at the quality of flames that thread would generate.
Stoping gate camps by increased police response to them is part of the goals a CSM would want to achieve, what kind of response and how it can be implemented might get discussed at CSM meetings, why would I want to post "one or more variants of an already proposed idea". If we support CSMs who want to use NPCs to blow up gate camps, different approaches at that goal will be tested, discussed, no new idea there.
As you see while I support such ideas (it would help the players I try to invite), my idea is to give bounty rewards for ships based on destroyed value which is hard to exploit. But since we have CSM elections, and I talk with candidates and if some of them support the idea and gets elected, there is no need for suggestions forum. If such support isn't possible, then it will end up there
I would actually really love to see your Concord Gate proposal on the offical forums, please go post that over there and then come back and post the link, I could really use the chuckles at the quality of flames that thread would generate.
Stoping gate camps by increased police response to them is part of the goals a CSM would want to achieve, what kind of response and how it can be implemented might get discussed at CSM meetings, why would I want to post "one or more variants of an already proposed idea". If we support CSMs who want to use NPCs to blow up gate camps, different approaches at that goal will be tested, discussed, no new idea there.
As you see while I support such ideas (it would help the players I try to invite), my idea is to give bounty rewards for ships based on destroyed value which is hard to exploit. But since we have CSM elections, and I talk with candidates and if some of them support the idea and gets elected, there is no need for suggestions forum. If such support isn't possible, then it will end up there
/sigh
You really just don't get it. The tools to stop gate camping are there already but you don't want to use them.
You are starting to go back to babbling nonsense posts again, please just stop. Talking about CSM this and CSM that and thinking just because there is a CSM that CCP will just go along with any half cocked hair brain idea that people who have no idea or intention of learning how the game actually works.
The CSM is not there to decide what CCP should put in the game. The CSM is not your personal lobbyist group. The CSM is a tool and a buffer for CCP to actually interact with knowledgeable players rather than deal with people like you on thier forums.
I want you personally to go make a thread on any of the forum sections on the offical forums talking about how Concord should be protecting the 100km zone around the first low sec system. Do this and and post the link here, then send me a private message on here with your in game name and I will personally run a "how to run and survive a low sec gate camp" seminar for your new players that you are training.
Actually you know what, I am getting very tired of this typing at this point, if you wish to discuss this properly message me with your in game name and I will talk to you in game on voice.
Comments
Do not conjure and inject implied insults such as the highlighted text above.
You do a pretty good job of talking out both sides of your mouth. On one hand you claim to want to reduce rewards and increase risk in high sec space yet you complain about gatecamps with comments like:
"And easy to fix gatecamps at entrace: If you stay in 100km range from a gaate you could have a 2 minutes "concord protection timer", leaving this area would mean losing protection." -Enerla
It appears as if you want to reduce some of the rewards of high sec all while drastically reducing the risk in low sec.
Edit:
Isn't it time you let this thread highjack of yours go now ? Go make your suggestions over on the Eve Suggestion forums.
In low sec, the risks wouldn't be reduced that much, but at entrance to low sec it would be reduced. If gatecamping at entrances wouldn't work, most people wouldn't stay away from low sec.
You would have plenty of targets to shot down, but their risks taken would be balanced out with some rewards. Since the pirates would have many targets, people would be able to defend themself, there would be meaningful bounty hunting that would add risks for pirates too,
Right now, most of low sec space are relatively safe, but entrances to low sec aren't. This is what should be changed.
Edit: "Your posts are nothing more than a typical high sec should be as profitable as 0.0 whine post. " conjure, implied, yeah, right...
Check my home page for gaming related articles
That's right you responded to me first by questioning my ability to comprehend text and then made up a quote that looked almost like something I said and injected the word moron at the end therfore implying I insulted and attacked you, something which you have done a few times to a couple of people in thie thread that you have hijacked for your personal agenda and blog promotion.
I am now offically done with you, I will not be baited by your trolls so you can play the victim.
/thread back on topic
@ the OP / writer of this article if you even read past all the sewage in this thread.
I would like to know do you have any intentions of continuing the game after your 8 week article series is done or are you just writing this as part of your employment and you really could care less about the game once you are done ?
I would be shocked if you actually did respond here however.
If I would want to promote the blog, I would post a lot more links, but I have no intention to repeat several pages long stuff there because you hate links, which is a functionality in this site for a reason.
You yourself "implied" what I want, and was wrong at it.
You confused a stated fact you didn't dispute with some made up interpretation of your own and claimed my posts are nothing but your made up ideas I think, I didn't have to "conjure" "implined" insults there.
When you decide that people who ask for lower reward for high sec can be bashed by claiming he posts a typical whine that wants the opposite thing to bash another person, and fail to recognize facts and twist and bennd everything to attack with your style, then you shouldn't be surprised to get comments about you.
Because your behavior is what defines a troll.
It is simple as that.
The if you are wrong, you claim the other people spokjen for something else, and try to discredit the recognized facts that way since you cannot and won't have any intelligent discussion.
Edit: And I think everyone over 6 years of age has the ability to comprehend, survival in eve if keep playing eve the key question is, can real players survive long enough to see enough of eve, and the times where most people leave are on topic there. "how everyone who don't like or see people do quit often and mention it must be a wow fan and should be based" way is hijacking the thread.
Check my home page for gaming related articles
Dude you ramble on and on so much that I don't even know what the hell your problem with Eve is.
You seem like a disgruntled low sec player (even that im not sure about).
Or maybe a High sec players not able to make enough isk (again i could be wrong).
Maybe you could explain how you would fix Eve to suit YOU because this is obviously why your bitching, noone goes on and on like this if they arent butt hurt in some way and feel they are treated unfairly.
So please enlighten me, what do you want CCP to do? Im really tired of your back and forth get get to the point, voice your opinion and gtfo please!
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
No, I tend to train newbies and I an unhappy because they regularly leave eve behind for same reason under same circumstances.
But as I said: I would try to stop "permanent" gatecamps at gates between high sec and low sec boudary to make low sec accessible to more, but make sure risks inside low sec would stay.
Would add the price of all exploded items as bounty on pirates and people who destroy the ship, or clone of pirates would get 50% of losses by the pirate as bounty to make bounty hunter profession in low sec space viable. And remove insurance for - sec status people.
Would add a system similar to development in 0.0 for development in high sec, in undeveloped system concord response, etc would be reduced. Same as station services, LP store and market supplies. Only a few newbie systems would be unaffected. The difference in security between 0.5 and 0.4 would be less important than the difference between 1.0 and 0.5 with the system. (Ability to reduce security of systems indirectly can be a dramatic increase for risks)
Would add "extra" enemies to missions at lower sec systems.
Would make sure that mining/industry and agent runing gives comparable rewards (and miners, etc. don't have to run a lot of agent missions to get standing for a jump clone)
Edit: Forgot to mention unique BPO research to make sure player (and player corp) created items should be "top of the line" but of course items comparable to officer loot would need a pos in 0.0 to create...
Back and forth cannot be avoided if some people try to put different goals to my mouth and have to explain things repeatedly. I can stress, my problem is simple: I love to help and train people, have a support role, but if a lot of new players disappointed with the game (regardless of who trained them) and for same reasons that makes me a bit unhappy and waiting for changes.
Check my home page for gaming related articles
As a player for going on 6 years I have pretty much done it all in EVE. During that time I have taken a few breaks from the game and spent that time playing WOW, to the point where I have 5 lvl 80 toons so its safe to say I gained alot of experience playing WOW as well. Now to compare the two games is rediculous. WOW has its good points that make it fun to play, be it conquering a dungeon with your friends or winning a battleground in pvp. The thing is that WOW is bent more towards a wider age range than EVE is as how many kids would stop playing WOW if dying meant loosing all your gear or loosing a certain city to the other faction meant not being able to sit on your favorite mount and spam trade chat from that location any more.
Yes EVE is harsh and can test your patience to the utmost which is why I believe it to be more of an adult game (kids rarely have patience). If you are posting a comment praising WOW over EVE its mainly because of the pvp involved which leads me to believe you are either bad at pvp or dont understand the mechanics of it. The people who make these comments probably dont know they are "carebears" and are probably better off playing WOW as 90% of the people who play WOW are truely "carebears". I didnt go and play WOW expecting it to be like EVE so for gods sake dont come into EVE expecting everyone to admire your ship without someone wanting to kill it.
Ok I know I said I was done with you but since this is the first actual reasonable and clearly written post I have seen from you I will share a few thoughts with you.
First off I can tell you are very much an industrialist and your ideas regarding improvements in that respect are very good.
Now having given credit where it was due it's time for some criscism and I will keep it honest and constructive.
Your thoughts on bounty hunting do not even start to approach the problems with it. Adding more bounty to the pirate from items blown up is a useless mechanic and here is why. Pirates do not care how much bounty is on their head, it's a badge of honor for them. They want it high as possible so once it gets high enough to cover their clone and implants they simpley use an alt to pod kill him and collect the bounty. Adding the cost of items to their bounty is just incentive for them to simpley blow up everything in sight instead of playing a proper pirate and ransoming ships. If you want to punish the pirate for blowing up your ship make more items go pop when blow up by someone with low security, even that would be silly though. Your ideas don't help the bounty hunter profession at all.
Bounty Hunters as a profession need more tools made available to them such as better location agents with better accuracy and speed of notifications. Bounty hunters should have special a license, modules and or ships made available to them to help catch a pirate, ships with modules and bonuses to things like warp disruptors and webs out to 100k as an example (just an example that could probably use a lot of tweaking) Bounty Hunter licenses should only be available to players with an extremely high security status (4.5+ for example) Along with high rank skills needed to train to use the special ships and modules.
100km Concord Zone around gates is also a terrible idea and here is why. You would make travel in low sec 99% safe just as it is in high sec now. Your solution here would make it so the true high sec carebears are willing to go into low sec but they still will not go into the belts or do missions or plexes because that is where the pirates will hunt them. You do nothing to populate low sec but everything to make travel through it safe and punish piracy as a profession.
Combine that with your very pro NPC solutions to certain problems with the game and your very quick snarky and pissy attitude and it isn't hard for people to think you are coming off as a high sec carebear wanting all the rewards and benefits of high and low sec with none of the risk and work involved. Just get off your high horse about how Eve is evolving and CCP needs to listen to the players more to be sucessful like those "other" games.
Just my personal thoughts here and nothing in response to you.
In Eve when there is a problem with game balance or design flaw it is always preferable to solve the problem by giving the players tools necessary to address the problems, not adding in more arbitrary NPC rules and regulations. That is not to say that some solutions don't require simple NPC type fixes but only when absolutely necessary. Remember the goal of Eve is one day be eventually NPC free as much as possible and where applicable.
Edited for fat finger syndrome.
You missunderstood one part of idea: With bounty hunting since you wouldn't get a single payout for pod killing, but you would get payout based on how much value is lost by the pirate and only 50% of his uninsured loses... he wouldn't blow himself up, since he would get nothing from the bounties.
But attacking a seasoned pirate would give you better rewards than attacking a carebear (risk vs reward) , which would make them better target for an average PVPer, your idea of more modules, agents based on requirements could be a good addition.
Traveling in low sec wouldn't be safe since the protection would be only for the high-sec low sec border on the 2nd jump he wouldn't be safer.
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You are still ignoring the real problems with bounty hunting though. It has little to nothing to do with risk and reward on its own for the players. It has everything to do with the difficulty in catching a pirate because of current game mechanics. POD killing someone outside of a 0.0 bubble is very difficult unless the person is a noob or having a serious lag issue. It just isn't worth the hassle and time involved to try and catch a pirate with a bounty worth hunting.
So you make the first jump into low sec and theres Concord protected gates, all you are doing now is moving the gate camps one system deeper. Now all you are doing is letting new players enter and travel to stations in that first system but they still will not want to enter belts or missions and plexes in any low sec system.
Improving the bounty hunters tools and rewards would allow them to actively hunt and keep low sec relatively clear thus in return making it safer for new players and corps to now populate low sec for missions and mining ops with more safety than they have now.
Edit:
In response to your 2nd paragraph. The way it's worded is a little confusing. Are you saying that a bounty hunter would attack a pirate or a new player or are you saying a pirate would attack another pirate rather than a new player ? Some clarification here would be helpful but for now I will go with the thought that you want pirates to attack other pirates. If this is the case then you are under the assumption that pirates are looking for fair and evenly matched PvP fights when this is simpley not the case, pirates are out for easy prey they don't want to risk their ship needlessly, remember this is how they are supposed to make their money (even though we all know they make their money just like everyone else.)
As one of the other responders to the thread mentioned, it seems that these conversations always get off-track from what the OP writes about. I share in that, sorry.
I believe that he [OP] is simply doing his "eight weeks" as a work assignment and I'd be suprised if continues playing the game, in a dedicated way, after that period is over. In a nutshell, it just seems like he wanted to push the limits and see how far he could get in the game with the eight-week timespan. It also sounds like he's of the culture that if you don't have someone, or some people, to play with, then you might as well end the misery by getting a gun out and shooting yourself dead.
While there were many different "tracks" that he could have taken on his eight-week journey, I don't care much for his dire need to be part of a Corp. so soon (but of course, he only has eight weeks...). I don't think he pushed himself to really figure out EVE, and what was really available to him. It just sounded like he wanted to go and blow things up which sounds like a favorite for many people (I'm not a pacifist or anything like that, I've done it too). Maybe this is why there are so many WoW vs. EVE discussions that continue to crop up - the parallel is there, in principle, not the mechanics of it all - either blow things up in space, or kill things in a dungeon.
I have respect for people who push themselves to research, find something out, or figure out how something is supposed to work, on their own - this show's resourcefulness, tenacity, a no-quit attitude which is what I'd be impressed with if I were recruiting for my Corp. I have NO respect, however, for the person who hits the first bump in the road on their project and immediately reaches for the phone, or asks the guy in the next cubicle, to get the answer to something that they should be figuring out on their own. These types will never learn anything of value, since they'll always be looking for a hand-out from someone else who has done the hard, knuckle-grinding, back-breaking, blood, sweat, and tears-type research and work. The satisfaction (or proverbial pat-on-the-back) that you get is when you figure it all out on your own.
And now, on a different track - I've seen the posts on the gatecamps. You know, you have to be one low-life, scum-sucking, coward to sit behind a gate and pop people when they're just coming out of warp. The only time I would ever justify a gatecamp would be if you were defending your Sovereign Space from an attack by an invading, hostile force that is coming to take your territory and POS from you. Otherwise, space travel should be open and free. If you want to travel to low-sec or null-sec it can still be full or risk but I wouldn't allow gatecamps. But since most gatecampers are griefers and people of sick and evil character, then I guess that will never stop unless the devs. change the game at some later time. I side with the individual in this thread that said if gatecamps were made harder or, put off by Concord, then more high-sec people (or carebears) would venture out in the low/null-sec - I think that's right. And I don't think they'd just stop there - they'd go on to mining and maybe even taking on pirates and scum-suckers but, at least it wouldn't be while they're sitting there in a moment of defenseless lag, just coming out of warp, while five, ten, twenty, or more ships all open fire on one target - you have to be a pretty sick person to participate in something like that - and ya, you can pat yourself on the back for it, you're a real tough guy.
"Live long and proper"
Well said, except for your last paragraph.
Have you ever played Eve and more specifically if you have since warp to zero was introduced ?
If your answer is no to these questions then allow a little education in how the game works here.
I will only be talking in the context of low sec and not null sec since warp bubbles and heavy interdictors add a very different mechanic to the gate camps. These bubbles are not usable in low sec.
You cannot simply blow someone up as they drop out of warp when they are incoming to a gate escpecially if they used "warp to 0" as this puts the player right on the gate ready to jump through thus avoiding the gate camp completely. If the player is doing the afk auto pilot they will be 15 km off and very much open game to be targeted and shot but then again they were afk auto piloting through low sec, don't do this. Getting a lock takes time and you need the lock before you can open fire.
The other direction of the gate camp is where some people tend to have problems. This is where a person jumping from high sec into a low sec system and there is a pirate waiting. At this point the player has a 30 second session timer which prevents them from running back to the gate and jump through but you also have a 60 second stealth timer. Thus you can wait out the session timer and burn back to the gate and back to safety, now of course depending on the size, speed and tank of your ship and the tackle capabilities of the pirate you may get caught and blown up before you get back. The difficulty here for the pirate is he is going to have to first get a lock on you in time to get enough damage on you to blow you up. The pirate is also going to be taking sentry gun fire therefore he needs a ship that can tank this. Now heres the dilemma for the pirate. He needs a ship that can lock fast, tank sentries and do enough damage in the time it takes for the potential target to get back to the gate. Small fast locking ships like interceptors and tech 1 cruisers will not be able to tank the sentrys and larger ships like battlecruisers and battleships are not capable of locking the target in time to do anything.
If the player is in a smaller fast to align ship there is no reason in the world he should not beable to just warp off to the next gate or to a station before being targeted and blown up thus the gatecamp fails.
Do you see how this is actually quite a challenge for players ? Gate camping pirates only get the careless or non educated in game mechanics. Gate camps are easily avoided, all you need is a small quick scout such as a frigate or shuttle and you damn near invulnerable. Teamwork of a whopping 2 people will make you 100% safe vs gatecamps, going solo into low sec with something big and slow like an industrial, battlecruiser or battleship will make you an easily locked and tackled target, but even then with a proper speed and buffer tank setup you shoud be able to make it back to the gate and into safety.
If you really believe adding the concord protection to the gates as suggested would encourage new players to go live in low sec to mine and do missions you are mistaken and here is why. Belt ratting, mining and doing missions will make those new players an even more vulnerable target. The pirates will now use scanning ships to scan you down and a cloaked tackler will warp in unknown to the "carebears" (i use this term with great reluctance here). The pirates will then warp in on top of them with quick locking dedicated tacklers and nuke them hardcore. The "carebear" corp will have to be watching local and using their overview scanner frequently to avoid being caught. All these things are very foreign to the new player and if they havn't figured out the basics of scouting and warp to 0 yet what makes you think they know how to use their overview scanner ? If they have to run then they just lost their mission or they will be losing time mining. Thus in the end they will return to high sec space where running level 4 missions will net nearly as much potential income with extremely little to no risk which is what the true carebears want.
"But since most gatecampers are griefers and people of sick and evil character, then I guess that will never stop unless the devs. change the game at some later time." -sparcdude
I quoted this line specifically for a reason. This kind of statment is the opinion of the uneducated in the ways of Eve and also very biased and prejudice. There is a very strong difference between a griefer and a gate camping pirate. A griefer is Eve is someone who sits outside new player starter system stations dropping cans labeled "free stuff" and when the new player takes it he is now flagged to be freely shot. This is simpley tricking the absolute new player and is a bannable offense. Gate camps are very easily avoided and thus you can protect yourself from it. You may not like it but it is not griefing. Remember this is Eve, clicking the button to undock is your consent to PvP and this will never change unless CCP wants an SWG on their hands, fortunately for us they havent even hinted at this ever being even a tiny thought in the back of some devs head somehere.
You mentioned above that space travel should be open and free. Well let me ask you this. How would you go about cutting off your enemies war supplies ?
I hope this long winded post explained some game mechanics to you and changed your opinion to understand why what you think would make life easier for new players would in fact make it even more difficult for them.
My final thought as I click post message.
It is too bad sometimes these threads get so off topic but then again what else are we really going to talk about in these threads ? Are we going to talk about the writers writing skills ? Nah that's boring and besides these types of threads are always in the general forum and linked from the main page and attracts the Eve trolls and haters very quickly to share their hatred and spread misinformation. It's this misinformation that gives potential new players the wrong impression of the game so the Eve fans come to defend against it and well you get threads like this. I think it would be wise on the part of the site and the articles writers to actually participate in these threads to help maintain some form of control instead of just sitting back and and modding the occasional post. As these articles are simply posted and forgotten by by the orignal writer they serve as nothing more than glorified sanctioned trollbait.
I know about the "mechanics" that you speak of Lovesurgeon but, if we're talking about two-week old noobs, they're not going to know this. They just simply want to explore the open space and travel to some other star systems - maybe go from one end of Eve universe to the other. What kind of a "threat" is a noob in an Ibis frigate going to pose, anyway? If they get blown to bits once they've gotten to a system and are just poking around belts, then that's the "cold, cruel, harsh space" that is Eve, and I don't think they'll simply quit the game because of that. But if they can't even get to some of the wide open spaces (because of the gatecamps), then that is what will discourage them for wanting to explore the game and see the magnitude of the Eve "space". And so what you end up with is, as you were reluctant to say, carebears. Or they join a Corp., dreaming of big things to come (kind of like the OP), and get disappointed time and again because the Corps they're getting into are merely taking them in to get ISK dues from them. Anyway, this convo could go back and forth for quite some time and what I was refering to in my previous post was the player who's got a number of months in the game already.
I'm not going to engage in a mud-slinging campaign on our differences of opinion between griefers and gatecampers. The supply-line issue is maybe how you justify it but, I don't think that's the general consensus amongst most of them.
'Later.
This is why, I suggeste a system where killing their ship gives some bounty, and repeatedly blowing up their ships by a nice roaming PVP gang would supply you a steady income. The bounty system is "flawed" since it requires a pod kill which isn't that feasible without bubbles. But what if insurance companies would pay good money for their ships too and wouldn't ever play more than the losses the pirate has to endure.Yes, if you would blow up their pod, that would be another set of destroyed property they lost and you would get bounties up to 50% of the value of their clone (no, no price from implants, friends of mr pirate won't help to get back half of the price of implants you want to replace).
And of course, with agents sponsored by PC corporations (and insurance related NPC corps, concord, etc) they would offer job to stop PC pirates, and if you are on a such agent mission (it would be harder to get standing to such agents after you had - sec status than to get most sec status back) the location of the pirate would be in your journal. And the agent would choose a random nearby pirate for you and attacking a concord sanctioned bounty hunter mission targets in high sec space wouldn't trigger concord response. LP store of such corps could offer some nice "faction" scramblers, that would automatically scramble the pod if their target gets clown up but have limited charges (and cannot be traded, etc).
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I yet have to see Bounty system that is functional and not exploitable...
They should just make the BH system a pve mechanic.
Make it an incredibly challenging hunt that requires different skills to train, different ships to use that has you flying all over space finding a Named target that could actually kick ur ass if your fitted wrong lol.
It fails as a pvp mecanic because people are smart and they exploit.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Interesting how none of you even seem aware that the LARGEST PVP WAR probably EVER is on it's way in EVE as we speak!!!!
The southern coalition (collection of big null sec alliances) has launched a massive offensive with unheard logistical capabilities, running round the clock 23/7 fleet operations against the northern coalition. Starting the war last month april, my corp had more than 5000 kills in 4 weeks time with maybe only 20 active pvpers!!!!!!!
The war will probably have long lasting influence on the game, and affect the markets in a massive way!!! I am suprised how little high sec players know about what is going on in the rest of EVE. The sad thing is that high sec is the smallest game area, if all you ever do is stay there you will never get a taste of the "real" eve life. I would suggest at least taking a peak beyond high sec, and explore a little. The worst that can happen is that you get podded.
I agree that people should take a peak and not stay in one area the entire time.
I disagree with the "real" Eve comment.
Eve can be whatever the player wants, 0.0 is actually experienced by a very small amount of the playerbase (20% of the pop at most). I wouldn't be calling that the "real" anything.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
No one is slinging mud but you, you are the one calling gate campers griefing sick low life scum sucking cowards. You are the one generalizing a player who participates in a very legitimate form of gameplay within Eve.
What kind of a threat is a noob in an ibis ? I guess you really don't know about spying and the value of intel in Eve.
You want to get noobs into low sec and beyond which is fine but your supported Concord idea is way off the mark. You are changing nothing but the position of the buffer zone that is already there now. As I said before with your system noobs will maybe now enter low sec space but they won't move to and live in low sec which is the goal here is it not ? Noobs still wont rat, explore, mine or mission run in low sec because will get destroyed in the middle of their "fun" and run back to high sec once again like they are now.
You say noobs don't know the mechanics and again what does your supported system change ? Nothing, noobs will still have to learn the mechanics just like they do now.
You want safe travel in low sec ? Get a scout. Simple. God forbid you actually work with someone in the game like the gate camping pirates you obviously hate so much.
How would you exploit the system I suggested?
By the way: We spoke about ISK / hour players, let me explain a few things.
Eve Online is an unique game partly because of PLEX. Why?
Latin America, Central and Eastern Europe, etc. special markets because a lot of people cannot pay for the game they want to play, an accepted credit card, the costs, etc are prohibitive for many people there. I don't want to repeat everything I said about these markets, but CCP handles these markets well. They handle these people well. These people choose EVE because they can pay their subscribtions with PLEX. Both initial advancement and steady income is important to keep these players.Remember the link to the post about a player from wow invited to eve? And how she tries to get a plex in 51 days to play on her 52th day?
As someone who tries to actively recruit more players for eve in one of such markets, for me it is important to let these players survive. I have financed about 6 PLEXes in last 1.5 month, for various new players to give them a chance in this game. Their game is very different from the game of someone who can finance loses an fitts by selling PLEX.
What is "you lost a ship, but you can finance it by a few $ spent on PLEX you sell in game" becomes "you cannot finance your next PLEX, game over".
(Sorry for linking content, but even if it makes you unhappy, you would see copying two articles in a post wouldn't be good for anyone)
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Well I am certainly not going to debate how to make a Bounty Hunting system work in the details. I was merely pointing out a better direction of solution to getting more players to live in low sec space than your proposed Concord Gate area.
Give the players the tools and rewards they need to patrol and clear the low sec systems rather than arbitrarily moving the supposed buffer between high and low sec.
If you got a good working Bounty Hunter system then by all means go post ont he Eve suggestion forums, they do read it and implement the good ones.
I would actually really love to see your Concord Gate proposal on the offical forums, please go post that over there and then come back and post the link, I could really use the chuckles at the quality of flames that thread would generate.
@Gdemami
You're right, and it's probably the same reason the Bounty Hunter system has been untouched since day one.
I am aware of that war. And I am aware of how it influences my game. Since once you need more money to defend homeland, finance losses, etc. selling PLEX will be good for you, and I am thankful for the cheap PLEX many new hungarian players will get for the summer. Students who need it.
But lets see a few more things. While there are some "pay to get" guides, one of the best eve guides I seen is a hungarian guide, a nice looong PDF book, I know it will get a new version soon, with a lot of good updates, I think it is well over 300 pages. For me, that book is just as important news.
For me, it is important that the new vBadvanced Dynamics fo vBulletin 4 is in RC1 stage, since if it will reach "gold" stage, we can launch a hungarian eve database (I wouldn't put money in that if I would be anti eve). It will have missions, fits, etc. And at the same we try to promote Eve in a few ways. Say with an eve blog at blogs section of a major hungarian portal.
On a hungarian blogs about finance, etc. we had an article about why problems like credit crunch, crisis in greece is hard coded in the system (with internet a lot of people trade online without knowing much about what they trade, they only see the chart and it brings risks), and why using sandbox games for experiments about how market works can help to understand the markets... Such discussions are important for getting more people in eve. And making sure these players stay and this work is a good investment is just as important.
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Stoping gate camps by increased police response to them is part of the goals a CSM would want to achieve, what kind of response and how it can be implemented might get discussed at CSM meetings, why would I want to post "one or more variants of an already proposed idea". If we support CSMs who want to use NPCs to blow up gate camps, different approaches at that goal will be tested, discussed, no new idea there.
As you see while I support such ideas (it would help the players I try to invite), my idea is to give bounty rewards for ships based on destroyed value which is hard to exploit. But since we have CSM elections, and I talk with candidates and if some of them support the idea and gets elected, there is no need for suggestions forum. If such support isn't possible, then it will end up there
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/sigh
You really just don't get it. The tools to stop gate camping are there already but you don't want to use them.
You are starting to go back to babbling nonsense posts again, please just stop. Talking about CSM this and CSM that and thinking just because there is a CSM that CCP will just go along with any half cocked hair brain idea that people who have no idea or intention of learning how the game actually works.
The CSM is not there to decide what CCP should put in the game. The CSM is not your personal lobbyist group. The CSM is a tool and a buffer for CCP to actually interact with knowledgeable players rather than deal with people like you on thier forums.
I want you personally to go make a thread on any of the forum sections on the offical forums talking about how Concord should be protecting the 100km zone around the first low sec system. Do this and and post the link here, then send me a private message on here with your in game name and I will personally run a "how to run and survive a low sec gate camp" seminar for your new players that you are training.
Actually you know what, I am getting very tired of this typing at this point, if you wish to discuss this properly message me with your in game name and I will talk to you in game on voice.