"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
It's from the movie CB4. It was one of Chris Rock's first movies.
I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I actually saw this film in the theatre with my friends back then. Yes, it's true!
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Marketing will only get someone to try a game, not stick to it. There has been a very long list of games from hugely popular IP, massive game studios and large marketing campaigns. If marketing a game was the key to success then other games would be swelling their ranks to. Wow is popular, because of good word of mouth which is something marketing cannot buy.
The whole accessability argument has been turned upside down from what it actually represents. Wow is only called accessable, because so many other games simply do not run effeciently and often have deal breaking issues that most gamers simply will not tollerate. You can see so many examples of companies that have taken game engines and reduced them to stuttering resource hogs that tax even the strongest of computers, even when those computers are created years after the game releases. Simply put, this is an issue of quality.
Oh the argument that wow is only popular... because it is popular is about the stupidest thing that can ever be said. EQ2 was popular at launch, but closing half of it servers in its first year. Warhammer and conan were extremely popular, but again closing servers in the first year. The sims is the most popular computer title in gaming history and the sims mmo had a budget over 100 million dollars and produced by the (at the time) larget gaming software company in the world. Doesn't seem popularity helped that game much. Again, positive word of mouth in effect here.
Wow is Easy to play, because it isn't needlessly complicated or poorly designed as many other games tend to be.
The whole "many of wows players have never even played another mmo" is so over used it isn't even funny. It completely ignored that many of wows players have long and varied experiences with other mmos and still chose wow over the competition. To suggest that other mmos cannot attract more players, because they are somehow unknown is quite simply disingenious. Lets assume mmo newbies from wow do find another mmo to try. Why would we expect their experience and reaction to be any different from those with mmo experience who are also not playing other games in great numbers? Not that I think any mmo player is to stupid to see the STO, EQ2, Champions, Warhammer, Conan or any other mmo game sitting RIGHT NEXT TO warcraft in the game isle and that is why so few play those other games.
If someone gets bored of wow, but really enjoys mmos they are going to try other games. Anyone can log into the trial area of just about any mmo and see it filled with people trying the game.
(TLDR version)
I'm not sure why people work so hard to find reasons to pin wows popularity on so many things that avoid the gameplay.
Blizzards design process to make wow seems to be different than how most other companies approach mmos. Their driving goals were to make sure the gameplay was fun first and if it wasn't fun they fixed it or removed it. The second was to commit to the game until it was as ready as could possibly be and not to release the game until that time.
If you take those two principles (fun first, ship when ready) and apply them to most other mmos you will see why other games struggle.
Honestly, pick a game and see how it scored on just those two points. Was it released with major problems, lacking features and performance issues? Did it spend the first year or two completely revamping core design decisions and major game mechanics? Is the game filled with things that sound great on paper, but are not very fun in reality? Especially when those can be spotted with very limited experience to the mechanics as if they never underwent player testing/feedback? Is the game still suffering from release issues currently and how long has it been that way?
For an example of what I mean, look at the first reviews of EQ2 and WoW when they went head to head with each other. Just look at what the good/bad summary of each game is if you don't want to read the entire articles.
High streamlined and conducive to short or long play sessions
Exciting, action-packed combat
Elegant, easy-to-use interface
Excellent music and sound.
The bad
Some stability issues immediately following launch
Player-versus-player elements not complete.
I think a lot of people forget just how impressive and refreshing wow was at release. Just look at the difference in the way both games are described in those articles and you see presentations that are as different as night and day.
Two review within 2 weeks of each other and look at the drastic difference in experiences.
the only other reason i could find is this:attention to detail!this is often the single biggest reason some game get more popular then other.simple exemple wasd we all take this for granted ,hell yet we still see game with NO wasd.if at least there is a choice between the 2 ok but often its not a choice .so just there without even doing anything that game aften loose 50% gamer
q,e to go sideways hell we lve been doing all kind of weird move in wow by using a combination of key often we go in other game and we are like men how come i feel like a rusted robot in this game there goes another 20%
see just these 2 detail alone lost 70% of gamer!so attention to detail as simple as they look is often the biggest game killer!
Because they made it easier for people to understand how to play compared to other mmos, also it can run on a commodore 64. It also didn't hurt that the Warcraft rts was insanely popular too.
I'm not sure why people work so hard to find reasons to pin wows popularity on so many things that avoid the gameplay.
Blizzards design process to make wow seems to be different than how most other companies approach mmos. Their driving goals were to make sure the gameplay was fun first and if it wasn't fun they fixed it or removed it. The second was to commit to the game until it was as ready as could possibly be and not to release the game until that time.
If you take those two principles (fun first, ship when ready) and apply them to most other mmos you will see why other games struggle.
Honestly, pick a game and see how it scored on just those two points. Was it released with major problems, lacking features and performance issues? Did it spend the first year or two completely revamping core design decisions and major game mechanics? Is the game filled with things that sound great on paper, but are not very fun in reality? Especially when those can be spotted with very limited experience to the mechanics as if they never underwent player testing/feedback? Is the game still suffering from release issues currently and how long has it been that way?
Well...I, for one, don't find the gameplay FUN....and I'm not alone. Of all the gamers in the entire world...11 million of them find it fun. I guess some of us are just....different.
Blizzard hit the nail on the head for what 11 million people think is fun (at least until those same people get burnt out on grinding rep, running the same dungeons over and over...or new dungeons with different "skins", and PuGing their way to emblems and welfare epics, and whatever other new carrots they add for chasing, become stale....OR UNTIL their lives change and they're no longer able to enjoy the game for other reasons).
However....considering the population of the world, and even the number of people that play MMOs worldwide...it still only shows what THOSE 11 million people find fun. When you consider how many people there ARE....11 million doesn't sound quite as awe inspiring. I'm sure in the future that there will be games that have 30 million subs. There are already games that that many PLAY, particularly in the eastern block of countries. We're so easilly impressed in the Western Hemisphere that it makes me laugh. Sometimes it's as though we think that North America is the ONLY market. It's certainly not. And my oh my how we IDOLIZE things here....musicians, athletes, movie stars. It's actually nauseating, really.
If EVERYONE thought WoW's "gameplay" was fun....then there would BE no gamer playing LotRO or AoC, or EQ2, or any of the F2P games, or Aion, or EVE, etc, etc. ALL of those games are fun to someone (collectively...a LOT of someones). What I, personally, get tired of....is people talking about WoW's "popularity" as though NOT liking it and not jumping on the proverbial "bandwagon" means there's something WRONG with a person, and it's equally as obnoxious to assume that LIKING WoW means someone is an uneducated, inexperienced gamer, likely immature, probably a child (or acts like one), and is basically a moron. NEITHER of those assumptions is correct.
There are brilliant people that play WoW...doctors, attorneys, and probably college professors (although I haven't met the later that did yet, but...I do know both a doctor and a lawyer that play). There are also complete idiots that play WoW. And guess what? EVERY SINGLE GAME on the market....those things can be said of them as well. Unfortunately, the more intelligent players of WoW do not seem to be the most outspoken IN game. And therefore....the community, imo, is disgusting, immature, obnoxious, and for me anyway...utterly repulsive. There is nothing that Blizzard could do to improve the QUALITY of that. The game's population has become somewhat of a cesspool, and at least for some....that's a bit of a deterrent to enjoying the game and playing it.
Blizzard, essentially, found a way to please a LOT of people. But they will never please everyone. Popularity, also....is something that is always in flux. Things can be hugely popular for many years and then all of a sudden one day....blammo....they, for some reason....fall from grace. People are FICKLE....gamers are fickle.
WoW may last for 15, 20 years (or maybe only 2 more, who knows), but its popularity will not last forever. Eventually....another game will rise in "popularity," because....that is how people ARE. They change, they grow, they move on to new things. WoW is not immune to the fickle nature of humanity, nor is it immune to the natural affects of time.
WoW is popular because this is WoW's TIME to be popular.
Never forget you played WOW for more than ... 5 years. There must be a reason if a person wants to devote that kind of playing time to a game. You are burnt-out now, we get it. It certainly is a very personal opinion from someone who played at least 5.000+ hours of his/her life on ONE game.
-------
Of course WOW may "last" another 5 or even 10 years. Does it matter or bother you ?
I know one thing: looking back on my own history of playing games, to me it seems the popularity and "success" of WOW is easy to trace.
No decent competition. Let's be honest: those "big" challengers in this mmo field are not exactly coming from the most succesful game developpers. You know Nintendo didn't enter the fight yet, Bioware has yet to set foot in a real mmo world.
How in the world could FunCom, Mythic, Turbine, Cryptic (you can add the others right here) ever challenge the Blizzard success rate of published games within the hardest and most challeging and extreme costly game designs (MMO's).
Of course people want to LIKE other games. That's why they TRY to like these games. But the fact remains: they simply don't have the same overall attraction because - and you know that very well - they can't compete on a one to one basis in resources.
You "forget" the polish, the different choices, the flying, the scaled challenge, the grind, the lack of end game, the mounted combat, the siege mechanics, the huge pve range and ...
... at the same time "everything" in WOW is put under a magnifying glass of how "bad" the leader of the pack really is.
I for one couldn't stand the stuck NPC's in the floors in FE, nor the thousands of unpolished things to find in all these "competitors". Ranging from unresponsive controls to clear lack of content and gaming options.
There simply was no challeging competiton to WOW and that's the main reason why it stays up there in popularity. If all those "WOW killers" would have been HALF the games they pretended they were, WOW would be played at a much more mundane scale.
We wait. .. as : all non published games are far better than WOW. A pity it costed a lot of people a lot of money these last 5 years.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Hun, I don't forget that I played WoW for five years. I've said (in more than one thread) that I even ENJOYED it! I know....around here, that's almost a sacrilege. lol The thing I have always tried to communicate is that, for me....WoW is destroying their own game. It's not JUST that I got "burnt out." Certainly after five years, I would wager that most people playing ANY game are going to be at risk of burnt out depending on how they play, and THAT...is not, as you have often said, the developers' fault. But my reasons for frustration with the game, were more from the changes they continued to make over the years, than from JUST simple burnout. Although....I really sincerely do think the "end game" is lacking. There simply isn't enough variety there for me.
I DO think WoW is a high quality, extremely polished, smooth running game. I'm not really sure how anyone could argue those points. And I really don't hate WoW....even though I know sometimes you probably think I do. What led me to leave WoW was disappointment in the direction it seemed to be heading with such persistence. The more they "streamlined" the game....the more it lost it's luster for me. I'm sure that it made it much easier for new people to catch up to their playing friends, and whatnot, but....those new people, were not the ones that had been financially supporting Blizzard over the prior five years as it grew to be the monstrosity it is today.
What has happened to WoW over the past five years left me feeling like I had been tricked....the old "bait and switch" tactic used by common thieves....that is how it FELT to me....as I slowly watched the game become something far different from the game I initially "signed up" to play, as they methodically castrated (for lack of a better word) the WoW that I really truly LOVED.
I know all of that probably makes little sense to you, because you sincerely (and I DO believe that you are sincere) think that Blizzard has only continued to improve on their game empire. And because you are so sincere and devoted....I really see that you honestly feel that way about it. And I would LOVE to be able to look at the game now and agree with you, but if I am honest....I just can't. It may be as simple as the fact that you and I are just different in what we long for and look for in an MMO. That's entirely possible. But Blizzard left ME....feeling cheated out of a game that at one time....to me....was so much MORE than it is now.
WoW is popular. WoW is ridiculously popular. And unlike some, I don't WANT WoW to "die" or there to be a "WoW Killer." The sad thing about it all for ME....is that I see WoW killing ITSELF...slowly...methodically...and without any signs of recovery. When I looked at WoW in February before I left....what I saw....was a SHELL of what I started playing in Novemeber of 2004. I saw a community that is cannibalizing ITSELF. But Blizzard is, in my opinion.....in part to blame for that. Because they no longer do things to ENCOURAGE a server-wide community. Their actions and changes to the game have encouraged a more solo-focused, selfish attitude in the players, and that is desperately SAD to me. Their new "streamlined" focus with the apex at "end game," has all but obliterated the journey.
I know you don't agree with me. I don't expect you to. I know that there are others that do, however. And those that do.....they leave WoW, often with great regret and sorrow over what they've seen, and they go find other games that are more true to their own personal vision for MMOs.
Progress is not always a good thing. Sometimes "progress" is a very destructive force in the world, and often we end up having to go BACK and repair the damages made by "progress." It's just human nature, I suppose. But where games are concerned....I am a firm believer that progress CAN be wed with tradition to form a more wise and sustainable, working, efficient, and exciting new thing with greater longevity in the whole...than in either of the parts.
But the fact will always remain......
Nothing under the sun, including in games, will every please EVERYONE endlessly. WoW was (and is) an MMO that made history. I can't deny Blizzard their well-deserved accolades for that. But I certainly cannot pat them on the back when I look back at how their changes over the years have diluted what was once a much more formidable MMO, in my opinion....just five short years ago.
I suppose it's all just a difference in our desires and perspectives, camp. You're not wrong...or right. You just see the game in a completely different light that I do now. And our views of it...will likely never be the same as each others. We started playing the game at completely different times during it's life cycle and we also are different people, with different opinions on what we want from a game....particularly in what has now come to be called "end game."
By the way....I actually enjoy our fiery debates. I almost.....missed you. lol
in original wow we had a bunch of different path we could take for various event we could do
suddenly in bc all those nice path were left to roth while they focused on instancing
so if you had faught world raid dragon ,if you had loved the fact that horde could come at any moment and have fun: that was no more!oh it was still there !probably still is!but here where it hurt!in bc blizzard didnt give incentive for endgame player to chose between world raid pvp stuff and say black temple !there was no choice.end game reward similar to black temple or pvp (instanced)werent avail for open world raider pvper! so in the end the open world event died quick.my wish back then was
to make us choose ?say path of darness(open world),path of the light (instanced)!its just random name by the way.
once that choice was made ,the reward you would get would be from your chosen path .yes, you could go to black temple but you wouldnt get the reward you needed! the highest would be green or sellable item.
but nope they putted reward where they wanted player to go and forgot those that loved the other aspect of wow.
i mention this aspect but in this tread other player have mention a lot of other aspect they had in original wow that was left
i dont mean the skill or other change like that the mecanile change were needed they were too new and didnt work on the long run since they werent thot with 3 expension in mind!i always mean the content when i speak about original wow.
Sure 11 million compared to the entire world is very small, but among the paying mmo subscriber population it is dominating. This is a thread about why wow is popular afterall. I think that clearly illustrates that there is a problem in the genre when one game can accomplish that much without any serious competition.
Wow may be fun for all of those people and once was for people like yourself who have since left. It was never my point that wow is what everyone would or should find fun, just that it is the choice of the majority. Likewise I don't think it is fair to catagorize wow players as only being capable of enjoying wow (not saying this is your stance, but many have often repeated that). It is completely unrealistic to assume wow players can't enjoy another mmo and I think there is a very easy to see reason why they don't.
In my opinion wow is so wildly popular, because the rest of the mmo market is filled with subpar products. It isn't marketing, intellectual property or the size of the blizzard. There are far to many examples of failed or massively under producing mmos that have that same pedigree. It really just boils down to how cheap and broken most other mmos are.
Compare wow to eq2 seeing how closely they both released and you have a great example of why the majority of players picked one over the other.
EQ2 could be a great game, but it isn't. That is not to say that people can't find it fun and there are not great things about the game. Like so many other games it is filled with potential, but the lack of quality and design approach hurt the games ability to achieve.
EQ2 fails the 2 question test of designed for fun first and only released when it is ready.
First it was and still is rushed to market long before it is ready. From the terrible condition the game was in at release to the shape the game is in now with the release of the expansion. The lead programmer just said "The EQ2 world isn’t exactly in the best shape it’s ever been in at the moment with zoning issues, instance lag, contested named fight lag, and broker lag so the dev team has a few issues to take care of before they can move forward with this idea." in an interview about server mergers.
The game isn't designed with fun first in mind. Im sure the developers want things to be fun, but they never really refine that process and it seems the speed and frequency they release paid content almost prohibits that from being a reality. John Smedley commented about slowing down their expansion process, because it was hurting the quality of their games. I truely believe the desire to sell an expansion is the driving force to create content and not the other way around. The process feels entierly reactionary instead of proactive. That is why the game design is so adhoc and constantly needing massive changes. From itemization, class balance to pve/pvp.
There is a reason that a rant site like eq2flames has more active online users than the official forums do.
This same story can be applied to so many other mmos that released. Millions and millions [combined] have tried Conan, Warhammer, Star Trek, Vanguard, EQ2, SWG, etc and most have left those games. There are so many people who would and could enjoy those games, but their condition almost exludes that. Most people no longer want to pay a subscription fee to a broken mismanaged game for the off chance that someday the developers will get their act together and deliver on the potential in those games.
If those developers ever did that, then I don't think wow would be anywhere as popular as it is today.
[TLDR version]
I've long said wow is only popular, because the rest of the market is so weak. If other developers had the same level of commitment and passion to their own product then this market would have been blown wide open a long time ago, but they don't so it hasn't.
I've long said wow is only popular, because the rest of the market is so weak. If other developers had the same level of commitment and passion to their own product then this market would have been blown wide open a long time ago, but they don't so it hasn't.
QFT
The only reason I kept going back to WoW, was that I just got sick of trying to tolerate the shoddy work other companies have put out.
At least WoW worked.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Wow is popular because it starts you off in a very well thought out newbie zone it spoon feeds you the quests it provides everything you need to do in terms of instructions and where to go.
the graphics are functional they are in style to the game they have a lot of comic style to them while still being serious at the same time.
the actual leveling system is pretty straight forward and it gives you a gradual increase in difficulty without expecting you to make a leap of faith with what your abilities do.
They made grouping easy to do if you want to do it, they made crafting simple and yet part of the game, they made the UI customisable so your not left with somthing you cant use and allowed people to develop plugins to make the experience even better.
Unfortunatly they have made the game in such a way that other MMO's have dumbed down possibly great games in order to get hold of the "wow" crowd but in doing so they effectivly shot themselves in the foot.
Instead of making a WOW beater they made a WOW clone that wasnt as good as WOW, most people when they change mmos want somthing different and why go from WOW to a less than good Wow clone. They also expect the level of ease that WOW offered them in every other game.
WOW also is popular because unlike other MMO's they still have boxed versions in shops and these boxes are normally within easy reach and on display. Its also continually advertising on Tv with big celebs. NO OTHER mmo that i have ever played has ever advertised outside of the internet.
Too many companies rely on the gamers and internet to sell their game. Blizard have always maintained a strong advertisment policy.
I've long said wow is only popular, because the rest of the market is so weak. If other developers had the same level of commitment and passion to their own product then this market would have been blown wide open a long time ago, but they don't so it hasn't.
QFT
The only reason I kept going back to WoW, was that I just got sick of trying to tolerate the shoddy work other companies have put out.
At least WoW worked.
That's bullshit atleast ten games on the market are as good as WoW.
Saying every other game is broke is an assanine comment.
The truth is WoW players dont give anything a chance. They go play Lotro or EQ2 and the combat isnt crack addict speed so they uninstall.
These players don't want a new experience like the rest of us. They want a game exactly like WoW which is impossible.
Combats not the same = uninstall
Game doesnt have a million armor sets, armor vendors and 90 leveling dungeons = uninstall
Game doesnt have 7 years of content = uninstall
The people that came into this genre with WoW needs to fucking leave before they destroy it.
ya i*(add name where star is)are all the rage with good reason.they are simple yet do everything you want
i saw my nefew not long ago program his iphone and all i havent had a cell in close to 10 years lol .was always supposed to buy another but they never got rid of the per minute thingy if it was similar to my net connection
say 2 mb/se dl and ul say 50 gig per month no locking whatsoever i would be wireless but ill be wifi or wimax before i go wireless .
I've long said wow is only popular, because the rest of the market is so weak. If other developers had the same level of commitment and passion to their own product then this market would have been blown wide open a long time ago, but they don't so it hasn't.
QFT
The only reason I kept going back to WoW, was that I just got sick of trying to tolerate the shoddy work other companies have put out.
At least WoW worked.
That's bullshit atleast ten games on the market are as good as WoW.
Saying every other game is broke is an assanine comment.
The truth is WoW players dont give anything a chance. They go play Lotro or EQ2 and the combat isnt crack addict speed so they uninstall.
These players don't want a new experience like the rest of us. They want a game exactly like WoW which is impossible.
Combats not the same = uninstall
Game doesnt have a million armor sets, armor vendors and 90 leveling dungeons = uninstall
Game doesnt have 7 years of content = uninstall
The people that came into this genre with WoW needs to fucking leave before they destroy it.
Care to name those 10 games? I would love to see your examples to be honest.
For beginners, people leave EQ2, because it presents a terrible new player experience. People didn't flock to lotro, because it plays almost identical to wow and contrary to your beilefs, people are looking for something different.
Also, games don't need to have 7 years of content to enter the market. EQ for example had 5+ years of content over wow and masses of players didn't have a problem leaving that game. Most people only focus on the latest content in mmos anyhow and the majority of that 7 years of content isn't relevant anymore.
What is more likely.
That there is some genetically new breed of mmo player that came to the market when wow released and they are incapable of enjoying anything other than wow, despite the market being filled with other games of the same level of quality.
-or-
Most people do not chose those other games, because they don't stand up in terms of quality?
In my opinion if even half of the big name mmos that released in the last few years did their job the mmo market would have evened out a long time ago. Instead we get vanguards, conans, dungeons and dragons online, warhammer, champions, star trek, tabula rasa, etc. How many chances do these games really need? Some like yourself want to blame players for not giving those games a chance while other see no reason to pay for something that offers less when they can get more elsewhere.
Comments
Sweat from my biggity balls!
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
good find!lol didnt know this song!
It's from the movie CB4. It was one of Chris Rock's first movies.
I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I actually saw this film in the theatre with my friends back then. Yes, it's true!
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Marketing will only get someone to try a game, not stick to it. There has been a very long list of games from hugely popular IP, massive game studios and large marketing campaigns. If marketing a game was the key to success then other games would be swelling their ranks to. Wow is popular, because of good word of mouth which is something marketing cannot buy.
The whole accessability argument has been turned upside down from what it actually represents. Wow is only called accessable, because so many other games simply do not run effeciently and often have deal breaking issues that most gamers simply will not tollerate. You can see so many examples of companies that have taken game engines and reduced them to stuttering resource hogs that tax even the strongest of computers, even when those computers are created years after the game releases. Simply put, this is an issue of quality.
Oh the argument that wow is only popular... because it is popular is about the stupidest thing that can ever be said. EQ2 was popular at launch, but closing half of it servers in its first year. Warhammer and conan were extremely popular, but again closing servers in the first year. The sims is the most popular computer title in gaming history and the sims mmo had a budget over 100 million dollars and produced by the (at the time) larget gaming software company in the world. Doesn't seem popularity helped that game much. Again, positive word of mouth in effect here.
Wow is Easy to play, because it isn't needlessly complicated or poorly designed as many other games tend to be.
The whole "many of wows players have never even played another mmo" is so over used it isn't even funny. It completely ignored that many of wows players have long and varied experiences with other mmos and still chose wow over the competition. To suggest that other mmos cannot attract more players, because they are somehow unknown is quite simply disingenious. Lets assume mmo newbies from wow do find another mmo to try. Why would we expect their experience and reaction to be any different from those with mmo experience who are also not playing other games in great numbers? Not that I think any mmo player is to stupid to see the STO, EQ2, Champions, Warhammer, Conan or any other mmo game sitting RIGHT NEXT TO warcraft in the game isle and that is why so few play those other games.
If someone gets bored of wow, but really enjoys mmos they are going to try other games. Anyone can log into the trial area of just about any mmo and see it filled with people trying the game.
(TLDR version)
I'm not sure why people work so hard to find reasons to pin wows popularity on so many things that avoid the gameplay.
Blizzards design process to make wow seems to be different than how most other companies approach mmos. Their driving goals were to make sure the gameplay was fun first and if it wasn't fun they fixed it or removed it. The second was to commit to the game until it was as ready as could possibly be and not to release the game until that time.
If you take those two principles (fun first, ship when ready) and apply them to most other mmos you will see why other games struggle.
Honestly, pick a game and see how it scored on just those two points. Was it released with major problems, lacking features and performance issues? Did it spend the first year or two completely revamping core design decisions and major game mechanics? Is the game filled with things that sound great on paper, but are not very fun in reality? Especially when those can be spotted with very limited experience to the mechanics as if they never underwent player testing/feedback? Is the game still suffering from release issues currently and how long has it been that way?
For an example of what I mean, look at the first reviews of EQ2 and WoW when they went head to head with each other. Just look at what the good/bad summary of each game is if you don't want to read the entire articles.
EQ2 link [nov 17th 2004]:
The good:
Impressive presentation
Wide assortment of character races and classes
Lots of quests; an initially significant amount of content to explore.
The bad
Resource hog; some poor performance even on fast machines
No player vs player component
Fairly conventional; get ready for the online RPG grind.
WoW link [Nov 29th, 2004]:
The good
Huge, beautiful, seamless world
High streamlined and conducive to short or long play sessions
Exciting, action-packed combat
Elegant, easy-to-use interface
Excellent music and sound.
The bad
Some stability issues immediately following launch
Player-versus-player elements not complete.
I think a lot of people forget just how impressive and refreshing wow was at release. Just look at the difference in the way both games are described in those articles and you see presentations that are as different as night and day.
Two review within 2 weeks of each other and look at the drastic difference in experiences.
@Torik
Fixed date typo, thank you.
the only other reason i could find is this:attention to detail!this is often the single biggest reason some game get more popular then other.simple exemple wasd we all take this for granted ,hell yet we still see game with NO wasd.if at least there is a choice between the 2 ok but often its not a choice .so just there without even doing anything that game aften loose 50% gamer
q,e to go sideways hell we lve been doing all kind of weird move in wow by using a combination of key often we go in other game and we are like men how come i feel like a rusted robot in this game there goes another 20%
see just these 2 detail alone lost 70% of gamer!so attention to detail as simple as they look is often the biggest game killer!
Your summary of the EQ2 review has the wrong date. You make it seem like the reviews were 2 YEARS and 2 weeks apart because of the typo.
Which social aspect? People calling each other racist and homophobic slurs and being otherwise abusive to each other (especially new players)?
Because they made it easier for people to understand how to play compared to other mmos, also it can run on a commodore 64. It also didn't hurt that the Warcraft rts was insanely popular too.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
@Girlgeek.
Never forget you played WOW for more than ... 5 years. There must be a reason if a person wants to devote that kind of playing time to a game. You are burnt-out now, we get it. It certainly is a very personal opinion from someone who played at least 5.000+ hours of his/her life on ONE game.
-------
Of course WOW may "last" another 5 or even 10 years. Does it matter or bother you ?
I know one thing: looking back on my own history of playing games, to me it seems the popularity and "success" of WOW is easy to trace.
No decent competition. Let's be honest: those "big" challengers in this mmo field are not exactly coming from the most succesful game developpers. You know Nintendo didn't enter the fight yet, Bioware has yet to set foot in a real mmo world.
How in the world could FunCom, Mythic, Turbine, Cryptic (you can add the others right here) ever challenge the Blizzard success rate of published games within the hardest and most challeging and extreme costly game designs (MMO's).
Of course people want to LIKE other games. That's why they TRY to like these games. But the fact remains: they simply don't have the same overall attraction because - and you know that very well - they can't compete on a one to one basis in resources.
You "forget" the polish, the different choices, the flying, the scaled challenge, the grind, the lack of end game, the mounted combat, the siege mechanics, the huge pve range and ...
... at the same time "everything" in WOW is put under a magnifying glass of how "bad" the leader of the pack really is.
I for one couldn't stand the stuck NPC's in the floors in FE, nor the thousands of unpolished things to find in all these "competitors". Ranging from unresponsive controls to clear lack of content and gaming options.
There simply was no challeging competiton to WOW and that's the main reason why it stays up there in popularity. If all those "WOW killers" would have been HALF the games they pretended they were, WOW would be played at a much more mundane scale.
We wait. .. as : all non published games are far better than WOW. A pity it costed a lot of people a lot of money these last 5 years.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
@camp1111
Hun, I don't forget that I played WoW for five years. I've said (in more than one thread) that I even ENJOYED it! I know....around here, that's almost a sacrilege. lol The thing I have always tried to communicate is that, for me....WoW is destroying their own game. It's not JUST that I got "burnt out." Certainly after five years, I would wager that most people playing ANY game are going to be at risk of burnt out depending on how they play, and THAT...is not, as you have often said, the developers' fault. But my reasons for frustration with the game, were more from the changes they continued to make over the years, than from JUST simple burnout. Although....I really sincerely do think the "end game" is lacking. There simply isn't enough variety there for me.
I DO think WoW is a high quality, extremely polished, smooth running game. I'm not really sure how anyone could argue those points. And I really don't hate WoW....even though I know sometimes you probably think I do. What led me to leave WoW was disappointment in the direction it seemed to be heading with such persistence. The more they "streamlined" the game....the more it lost it's luster for me. I'm sure that it made it much easier for new people to catch up to their playing friends, and whatnot, but....those new people, were not the ones that had been financially supporting Blizzard over the prior five years as it grew to be the monstrosity it is today.
What has happened to WoW over the past five years left me feeling like I had been tricked....the old "bait and switch" tactic used by common thieves....that is how it FELT to me....as I slowly watched the game become something far different from the game I initially "signed up" to play, as they methodically castrated (for lack of a better word) the WoW that I really truly LOVED.
I know all of that probably makes little sense to you, because you sincerely (and I DO believe that you are sincere) think that Blizzard has only continued to improve on their game empire. And because you are so sincere and devoted....I really see that you honestly feel that way about it. And I would LOVE to be able to look at the game now and agree with you, but if I am honest....I just can't. It may be as simple as the fact that you and I are just different in what we long for and look for in an MMO. That's entirely possible. But Blizzard left ME....feeling cheated out of a game that at one time....to me....was so much MORE than it is now.
WoW is popular. WoW is ridiculously popular. And unlike some, I don't WANT WoW to "die" or there to be a "WoW Killer." The sad thing about it all for ME....is that I see WoW killing ITSELF...slowly...methodically...and without any signs of recovery. When I looked at WoW in February before I left....what I saw....was a SHELL of what I started playing in Novemeber of 2004. I saw a community that is cannibalizing ITSELF. But Blizzard is, in my opinion.....in part to blame for that. Because they no longer do things to ENCOURAGE a server-wide community. Their actions and changes to the game have encouraged a more solo-focused, selfish attitude in the players, and that is desperately SAD to me. Their new "streamlined" focus with the apex at "end game," has all but obliterated the journey.
I know you don't agree with me. I don't expect you to. I know that there are others that do, however. And those that do.....they leave WoW, often with great regret and sorrow over what they've seen, and they go find other games that are more true to their own personal vision for MMOs.
Progress is not always a good thing. Sometimes "progress" is a very destructive force in the world, and often we end up having to go BACK and repair the damages made by "progress." It's just human nature, I suppose. But where games are concerned....I am a firm believer that progress CAN be wed with tradition to form a more wise and sustainable, working, efficient, and exciting new thing with greater longevity in the whole...than in either of the parts.
But the fact will always remain......
Nothing under the sun, including in games, will every please EVERYONE endlessly. WoW was (and is) an MMO that made history. I can't deny Blizzard their well-deserved accolades for that. But I certainly cannot pat them on the back when I look back at how their changes over the years have diluted what was once a much more formidable MMO, in my opinion....just five short years ago.
I suppose it's all just a difference in our desires and perspectives, camp. You're not wrong...or right. You just see the game in a completely different light that I do now. And our views of it...will likely never be the same as each others. We started playing the game at completely different times during it's life cycle and we also are different people, with different opinions on what we want from a game....particularly in what has now come to be called "end game."
By the way....I actually enjoy our fiery debates.
I almost.....missed you. lol
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Very well said, GG.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
poster 112! i mostly agree with you!
in original wow we had a bunch of different path we could take for various event we could do
suddenly in bc all those nice path were left to roth while they focused on instancing
so if you had faught world raid dragon ,if you had loved the fact that horde could come at any moment and have fun: that was no more!oh it was still there !probably still is!but here where it hurt!in bc blizzard didnt give incentive for endgame player to chose between world raid pvp stuff and say black temple !there was no choice.end game reward similar to black temple or pvp (instanced)werent avail for open world raider pvper! so in the end the open world event died quick.my wish back then was
to make us choose ?say path of darness(open world),path of the light (instanced)!its just random name by the way.
once that choice was made ,the reward you would get would be from your chosen path .yes, you could go to black temple but you wouldnt get the reward you needed! the highest would be green or sellable item.
but nope they putted reward where they wanted player to go and forgot those that loved the other aspect of wow.
i mention this aspect but in this tread other player have mention a lot of other aspect they had in original wow that was left
i dont mean the skill or other change like that the mecanile change were needed they were too new and didnt work on the long run since they werent thot with 3 expension in mind!i always mean the content when i speak about original wow.
@geekgirl
Sure 11 million compared to the entire world is very small, but among the paying mmo subscriber population it is dominating. This is a thread about why wow is popular afterall. I think that clearly illustrates that there is a problem in the genre when one game can accomplish that much without any serious competition.
Wow may be fun for all of those people and once was for people like yourself who have since left. It was never my point that wow is what everyone would or should find fun, just that it is the choice of the majority. Likewise I don't think it is fair to catagorize wow players as only being capable of enjoying wow (not saying this is your stance, but many have often repeated that). It is completely unrealistic to assume wow players can't enjoy another mmo and I think there is a very easy to see reason why they don't.
In my opinion wow is so wildly popular, because the rest of the mmo market is filled with subpar products. It isn't marketing, intellectual property or the size of the blizzard. There are far to many examples of failed or massively under producing mmos that have that same pedigree. It really just boils down to how cheap and broken most other mmos are.
Compare wow to eq2 seeing how closely they both released and you have a great example of why the majority of players picked one over the other.
EQ2 could be a great game, but it isn't. That is not to say that people can't find it fun and there are not great things about the game. Like so many other games it is filled with potential, but the lack of quality and design approach hurt the games ability to achieve.
EQ2 fails the 2 question test of designed for fun first and only released when it is ready.
First it was and still is rushed to market long before it is ready. From the terrible condition the game was in at release to the shape the game is in now with the release of the expansion. The lead programmer just said "The EQ2 world isn’t exactly in the best shape it’s ever been in at the moment with zoning issues, instance lag, contested named fight lag, and broker lag so the dev team has a few issues to take care of before they can move forward with this idea." in an interview about server mergers.
The game isn't designed with fun first in mind. Im sure the developers want things to be fun, but they never really refine that process and it seems the speed and frequency they release paid content almost prohibits that from being a reality. John Smedley commented about slowing down their expansion process, because it was hurting the quality of their games. I truely believe the desire to sell an expansion is the driving force to create content and not the other way around. The process feels entierly reactionary instead of proactive. That is why the game design is so adhoc and constantly needing massive changes. From itemization, class balance to pve/pvp.
There is a reason that a rant site like eq2flames has more active online users than the official forums do.
This same story can be applied to so many other mmos that released. Millions and millions [combined] have tried Conan, Warhammer, Star Trek, Vanguard, EQ2, SWG, etc and most have left those games. There are so many people who would and could enjoy those games, but their condition almost exludes that. Most people no longer want to pay a subscription fee to a broken mismanaged game for the off chance that someday the developers will get their act together and deliver on the potential in those games.
If those developers ever did that, then I don't think wow would be anywhere as popular as it is today.
[TLDR version]
I've long said wow is only popular, because the rest of the market is so weak. If other developers had the same level of commitment and passion to their own product then this market would have been blown wide open a long time ago, but they don't so it hasn't.
QFT
The only reason I kept going back to WoW, was that I just got sick of trying to tolerate the shoddy work other companies have put out.
At least WoW worked.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Wow is popular because it starts you off in a very well thought out newbie zone it spoon feeds you the quests it provides everything you need to do in terms of instructions and where to go.
the graphics are functional they are in style to the game they have a lot of comic style to them while still being serious at the same time.
the actual leveling system is pretty straight forward and it gives you a gradual increase in difficulty without expecting you to make a leap of faith with what your abilities do.
They made grouping easy to do if you want to do it, they made crafting simple and yet part of the game, they made the UI customisable so your not left with somthing you cant use and allowed people to develop plugins to make the experience even better.
Unfortunatly they have made the game in such a way that other MMO's have dumbed down possibly great games in order to get hold of the "wow" crowd but in doing so they effectivly shot themselves in the foot.
Instead of making a WOW beater they made a WOW clone that wasnt as good as WOW, most people when they change mmos want somthing different and why go from WOW to a less than good Wow clone. They also expect the level of ease that WOW offered them in every other game.
WOW also is popular because unlike other MMO's they still have boxed versions in shops and these boxes are normally within easy reach and on display. Its also continually advertising on Tv with big celebs. NO OTHER mmo that i have ever played has ever advertised outside of the internet.
Too many companies rely on the gamers and internet to sell their game. Blizard have always maintained a strong advertisment policy.
Why are Apple so popular?
same answer.
everybody heard about it!that is why its so popular!
That's bullshit atleast ten games on the market are as good as WoW.
Saying every other game is broke is an assanine comment.
The truth is WoW players dont give anything a chance. They go play Lotro or EQ2 and the combat isnt crack addict speed so they uninstall.
These players don't want a new experience like the rest of us. They want a game exactly like WoW which is impossible.
Combats not the same = uninstall
Game doesnt have a million armor sets, armor vendors and 90 leveling dungeons = uninstall
Game doesnt have 7 years of content = uninstall
The people that came into this genre with WoW needs to fucking leave before they destroy it.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Apple what? PCs? nope.
iPhones and iPods? okay.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Because rewards are easy to come by.
WTS Tyrael's Hilt - WWI Pet
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
dont know if there are 10 but i can name a few
aika online
eve online
allods online
runes of magic
silkroad online
guild wars
the chronicle of spellborne
battle of immortals
and there are other i forget that are better then all the one i mentioneed in xfire listing!
these are all good game true some are endgame mostly since they have been around a while.
ya i*(add name where star is)are all the rage with good reason.they are simple yet do everything you want
i saw my nefew not long ago program his iphone and all i havent had a cell in close to 10 years lol .was always supposed to buy another but they never got rid of the per minute thingy if it was similar to my net connection
say 2 mb/se dl and ul say 50 gig per month no locking whatsoever i would be wireless but ill be wifi or wimax before i go wireless .
Care to name those 10 games? I would love to see your examples to be honest.
For beginners, people leave EQ2, because it presents a terrible new player experience. People didn't flock to lotro, because it plays almost identical to wow and contrary to your beilefs, people are looking for something different.
Also, games don't need to have 7 years of content to enter the market. EQ for example had 5+ years of content over wow and masses of players didn't have a problem leaving that game. Most people only focus on the latest content in mmos anyhow and the majority of that 7 years of content isn't relevant anymore.
What is more likely.
That there is some genetically new breed of mmo player that came to the market when wow released and they are incapable of enjoying anything other than wow, despite the market being filled with other games of the same level of quality.
-or-
Most people do not chose those other games, because they don't stand up in terms of quality?
In my opinion if even half of the big name mmos that released in the last few years did their job the mmo market would have evened out a long time ago. Instead we get vanguards, conans, dungeons and dragons online, warhammer, champions, star trek, tabula rasa, etc. How many chances do these games really need? Some like yourself want to blame players for not giving those games a chance while other see no reason to pay for something that offers less when they can get more elsewhere.