The issues lies with part of a generation who started playing MMO's as teenagers and are now working adults. They think they can justify buying gold because they have less time, when in fact all it means is they take longer to achieve things in game, but are unwilling to accept that, so buy gold.
Well it's because they have less free time so it takes more time to achieve anything and most people seem to admit that much. Which is why the market has changed toward a more casual-friendly market. So I don't think they are necessarily unwilling to accept that, most openly admit that much though very few admit to buying gold.
So why is it such a catastrophe that accomplishments take longer if the player has more obligations? Is it really that difficult to accept that with age, relationships, jobs, etc come time delays on something as insignificant as video games? I suppose I'm more aghast that players are willing to accept the most shallow gameplay for instant gratification. Insult if you will, but accomplishments that take more time or are more difficult tend to be more meaningful.
The new generation of MMORPG player doesn't seem to grasp that, and I don't think it sprang from WoW. American society in general has let them down.
The issues lies with part of a generation who started playing MMO's as teenagers and are now working adults. They think they can justify buying gold because they have less time, when in fact all it means is they take longer to achieve things in game, but are unwilling to accept that, so buy gold.
Well it's because they have less free time so it takes more time to achieve anything and most people seem to admit that much. Which is why the market has changed toward a more casual-friendly market. So I don't think they are necessarily unwilling to accept that, most openly admit that much though very few admit to buying gold.
So why is it such a catastrophe that accomplishments take longer if the player has more obligations? Is it really that difficult to accept that with age, relationships, jobs, etc come time delays on something as insignificant as video games? I suppose I'm more aghast that players are willing to accept the most shallow gameplay for instant gratification. Insult if you will, but accomplishments that take more time or are more difficult tend to be more meaningful.
The new generation of MMORPG player doesn't seem to grasp that, and I don't think it sprang from WoW. American society in general has let them down.
As much as I agree with you, the market disagree. And that is quite sad.
But as I mentionned in an earlier post, Instant Gratification isn't the only reason why Gold Farming is so strong. We already have Instant Gratification! The reason why they are so strong is because they are able to gain control over the market and the economy, raising the prices and creating more demand for Gold.
The Law Of Unintended Consequences would seem to be in full effect here. Readers of Joseph Heller would probably add: "Nothing succeeds as planned".
The trouble is, people very often dont actually want what they think they want, and when they get it they're unhappy - so they demand more of it. Or in this case, less. Less challenge, less involvement, less immersion. Keep taking these things away, and what's left, exactly? Pretty much a high score board that only demands time. Let's take that requirement away too...
I still don't understand the reasons behind people purchasing levelling and/or gold. Both are a part of the game, if you're not enjoying the gathering or levelling then surely the game isn't for you?
Let's use a different genre to illustrate. I go out and buy Modern Warfare 2 but find I don't enjoy the game. Do I:
a) Pay an additional sum so someone else can play it up until the end, then I take over and kill the last boss or..
b) Try and take the game back or just not play it..
What about Sims 3. I want to make a nice house but I'd have to play a while to get the money. Do I:
a) Pay real cash so I can have that money now or..
b) Consider the game is too harsh on my gaming style and decide not to bother..
If you answered B to both questions then you're a rational human being. If you answered A to any then get a grip and realise that it's just a game and isn't worth paying real money to get ahead.
I still don't understand the reasons behind people purchasing levelling and/or gold. Both are a part of the game, if you're not enjoying the gathering or levelling then surely the game isn't for you?
Depends on the game.
It's easy to see why people might purchase levelling and/or gold in WoW, for example. The end-game is extremely different from the main body of the game experience and one can readily imagine someone saying:
"I want to PvP, raid and stuff but I don't want to schlep all the way from level 1 to 80 and grind tons of cash for professions and mounts".
I still don't understand the reasons behind people purchasing levelling and/or gold. Both are a part of the game, if you're not enjoying the gathering or levelling then surely the game isn't for you?
Let's use a different genre to illustrate. I go out and buy Modern Warfare 2 but find I don't enjoy the game. Do I:
a) Pay an additional sum so someone else can play it up until the end, then I take over and kill the last boss or..
b) Try and take the game back or just not play it..
What about Sims 3. I want to make a nice house but I'd have to play a while to get the money. Do I:
a) Pay real cash so I can have that money now or..
b) Consider the game is too harsh on my gaming style and decide not to bother..
If you answered B to both questions then you're a rational human being. If you answered A to any then get a grip and realise that it's just a game and isn't worth paying real money to get ahead.
To be frank you will probably never understand, or at least not until you see that people play games differently than you. Some might not like leveling, so they'll buy a maxed out toon for money. Their fun is in the end game only. Some people want that ultra-expensive über gear, but don't want to grind to get it. Their enjoyment comes from owning/showing off rare items. And so on..
The people who buy gold have already gotten a grip and realized that they are OK with spending money on "cheating". It's their playstyle, and though you and I may disagree, I for one understand that it's a perfectly rational choice.
I still don't understand the reasons behind people purchasing levelling and/or gold. Both are a part of the game, if you're not enjoying the gathering or levelling then surely the game isn't for you?
Let's use a different genre to illustrate. I go out and buy Modern Warfare 2 but find I don't enjoy the game. Do I:
a) Pay an additional sum so someone else can play it up until the end, then I take over and kill the last boss or..
b) Try and take the game back or just not play it..
What about Sims 3. I want to make a nice house but I'd have to play a while to get the money. Do I:
a) Pay real cash so I can have that money now or..
b) Consider the game is too harsh on my gaming style and decide not to bother..
If you answered B to both questions then you're a rational human being. If you answered A to any then get a grip and realise that it's just a game and isn't worth paying real money to get ahead.
To be frank you will probably never understand, or at least not until you see that people play games differently than you. Some might not like leveling, so they'll buy a maxed out toon for money. Their fun is in the end game only. Some people want that ultra-expensive über gear, but don't want to grind to get it. Their enjoyment comes from owning/showing off rare items. And so on..
The people who buy gold have already gotten a grip and realized that they are OK with spending money on "cheating". It's their playstyle, and though you and I may disagree, I for one understand that it's a perfectly rational choice.
MMOs have always been about progression. If people pay to avoid progression, is it ok not to call those games "MMOs"? Because that's what I think I'm going to do. I fully understand why they feel the need to pay for Gold, but given the various issues that comes from letting Gold Farmers go rampant....it's just not acceptable.
And if End-Game wasn't all about getting those Epics and End-Game, and instead more about the journey, it'd be a lot more interesting.
I still don't understand the reasons behind people purchasing levelling and/or gold. Both are a part of the game, if you're not enjoying the gathering or levelling then surely the game isn't for you?
Let's use a different genre to illustrate. I go out and buy Modern Warfare 2 but find I don't enjoy the game. Do I:
a) Pay an additional sum so someone else can play it up until the end, then I take over and kill the last boss or..
b) Try and take the game back or just not play it..
What about Sims 3. I want to make a nice house but I'd have to play a while to get the money. Do I:
a) Pay real cash so I can have that money now or..
b) Consider the game is too harsh on my gaming style and decide not to bother..
If you answered B to both questions then you're a rational human being. If you answered A to any then get a grip and realise that it's just a game and isn't worth paying real money to get ahead.
To be frank you will probably never understand, or at least not until you see that people play games differently than you. Some might not like leveling, so they'll buy a maxed out toon for money. Their fun is in the end game only. Some people want that ultra-expensive über gear, but don't want to grind to get it. Their enjoyment comes from owning/showing off rare items. And so on..
The people who buy gold have already gotten a grip and realized that they are OK with spending money on "cheating". It's their playstyle, and though you and I may disagree, I for one understand that it's a perfectly rational choice.
MMOs have always been about progression. If people pay to avoid progression, is it ok not to call those games "MMOs"? Because that's what I think I'm going to do. I fully understand why they feel the need to pay for Gold, but given the various issues that comes from letting Gold Farmers go rampant....it's just not acceptable.
And if End-Game wasn't all about getting those Epics and End-Game, and instead more about the journey, it'd be a lot more interesting.
To be fair, skipping the leveling part wouldn't invalidate the MMO part, but rather the RPG part.. Again, people play games different ways and they assume a playstyle which fits them. In the end it's important to remember it's all about having meaningless fun.
I still don't understand the reasons behind people purchasing levelling and/or gold. Both are a part of the game, if you're not enjoying the gathering or levelling then surely the game isn't for you?
Let's use a different genre to illustrate. I go out and buy Modern Warfare 2 but find I don't enjoy the game. Do I:
a) Pay an additional sum so someone else can play it up until the end, then I take over and kill the last boss or..
b) Try and take the game back or just not play it..
What about Sims 3. I want to make a nice house but I'd have to play a while to get the money. Do I:
a) Pay real cash so I can have that money now or..
b) Consider the game is too harsh on my gaming style and decide not to bother..
If you answered B to both questions then you're a rational human being. If you answered A to any then get a grip and realise that it's just a game and isn't worth paying real money to get ahead.
To be frank you will probably never understand, or at least not until you see that people play games differently than you. Some might not like leveling, so they'll buy a maxed out toon for money. Their fun is in the end game only. Some people want that ultra-expensive über gear, but don't want to grind to get it. Their enjoyment comes from owning/showing off rare items. And so on..
The people who buy gold have already gotten a grip and realized that they are OK with spending money on "cheating". It's their playstyle, and though you and I may disagree, I for one understand that it's a perfectly rational choice.
MMOs have always been about progression. If people pay to avoid progression, is it ok not to call those games "MMOs"? Because that's what I think I'm going to do. I fully understand why they feel the need to pay for Gold, but given the various issues that comes from letting Gold Farmers go rampant....it's just not acceptable.
And if End-Game wasn't all about getting those Epics and End-Game, and instead more about the journey, it'd be a lot more interesting.
To be fair, skipping the leveling part wouldn't invalidate the MMO part, but rather the RPG part.. Again, people play games different ways and they assume a playstyle which fits them. In the end it's important to remember it's all about having fun.
Fixed for ya.
I play games for fun, but there is always meaning behind it.
I don't know about other MMORPGers, but usually it is to escape the monotony of regular life, and (or) all the problems that I face in Real Life.
To be fair, skipping the leveling part wouldn't invalidate the MMO part, but rather the RPG part.. Again, people play games different ways and they assume a playstyle which fits them. In the end it's important to remember it's all about having meaningless fun.
Then why not just remove the boring part entirely and leave just the End-Game content. They already ditched the RPG aspect, can't be wrong with this choice. Hell, might even be the way to kill Gold Sellers.
Point is, if you are going to make anything but the end-game "important", than why waste time creating content for players to grind to reach the end-game? They don't even care about Lore anymore! Just make end-game and let them have fun, bring more End-Game content with Expacs, etc.
Do this and you definitively won't have as many issues with Gold Seller (such there will still be some but they won't be as "important".)
To be fair, skipping the leveling part wouldn't invalidate the MMO part, but rather the RPG part.. Again, people play games different ways and they assume a playstyle which fits them. In the end it's important to remember it's all about having fun.
Fixed for ya.
I play games for fun, but there is always meaning behind it.
I don't know about other MMORPGers, but usually it is to escape the monotony of regular life, and (or) all the problems that I face in Real Life.
You are indeed correct, I should have phrased myself better. I didn't mean meningless as devoid of meaning, rather as a lack of seriousness. The 'meaning' is entertainment and escapism - which is something many seem to forget...
I don't see how the the level of gold selling currently equates to whether games are more, less, or the same amount of fun as they were in the past.
I mean if you really wanted to you could use the argument either way in comparison to the "fun factor" in an mmorpg to make your case since there really isn't a direct comparison.
1. Person A says that the increase in gold selling proves people are enjoying them less so they're willing to just buy their way through the game.
2. Person B says there has always been a market for gold sellers and the increase in them is simply due to an overall increase in people playing mmos because they have become "more mainstream and fun", so by default of course there will be an increase in sellers/buyers.
3. Person C says stop comparing apples to oranges.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I don't see how the the level of gold selling currently equates to whether games are more, less, or the same amount of fun as they were in the past.
I mean if you really wanted to you could use the argument either way in comparison to the "fun factor" in an mmorpg to make your case since there really isn't a direct comparison.
1. Person A says that the increase in gold selling proves people are enjoying them less so they're willing to just buy their way through the game.
2. Person B says there has always been a market for gold sellers and the incerse in them is simply due to an overall increase in people playing mmos because they have become "more mainstream and fun".
3. Person C says stop comparing apples to oranges.
Person A and Person B are both right. Person C can jump off a cliff.
The current crop of MMOs have "fun" end-game, but grinding your way to the top is boring as hell. This is already an incentive for players to just want to skip it so they can reach the "fun part". Then there's also the increase in population and the MMOs taking a more mainstream approach. The demand increases and so Gold Sellers has now become a viable way to quickly reach the top.
Then there's also the consequences of letting Gold Farmers become so important (they take over the market and it's economy, effectively raising all the prices to create an even greater demand of gold).
Person A and Person B are both right. Person C can jump off a cliff.
They're arguing opposite sides of the argument so to say they're both right really doesn't make a lot of sense. There are certainly plenty of arguments to be made for and against gold selling but trying to say it can be used to gauge the current fun factor in games really isn't one of them far as I'm concerned.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
These discussions are seldom resolved because you are presented with two different schools of though, of which neither side wants to buy into. Person A says, I'm an old school player who believes in earning your way to fun. Person B says, I don't have time to earn fun, I just want to have fun. Person A feels they have the superior high ground because person B is sullying their purest gaming experience.
Person B then presents their argument and explanation. Then the ad nauseam begins. I understand both sides of the argument and understand why people are Raiders, Casuals, Crafters/Trade Skillers, and any number of different gaming styles, its because people are different, their fun is different.
My personal solution is I stop minding other people's business and do what I enjoy. If people play within the rules then let them play how ever they want. There will be gold sellers because there are gold buyers, yet all the attention seems to be on the gold sellers. SOE is trying to combat this by allowing players to buy virtual cash from them, which has presented yet another crop of arguments.
People want solutions to these problems, however there isn't always a one sizes fits all answer.
The Old Timers Guild Laid back, not so serious, no drama. All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
I remember when I first started playing EQOA, people were selling gold and characters like crazy. Before that came out there was a huge article in some gaming magazine about how people were selling items, gold and characters in EQ for large amounts of money. Anyone who played the "old" MMOs knows this all to well. This has been going on for a long time and happened a lot in old days because it wasn't policed. Now that there is a huge player base and people saw all of the crazy amount of money you could make in the days of EQ. It has nothing to do with "fun" factor of new games.
To be fair, skipping the leveling part wouldn't invalidate the MMO part, but rather the RPG part.. Again, people play games different ways and they assume a playstyle which fits them. In the end it's important to remember it's all about having meaningless fun.
Then why not just remove the boring part entirely and leave just the End-Game content. They already ditched the RPG aspect, can't be wrong with this choice. Hell, might even be the way to kill Gold Sellers.
Point is, if you are going to make anything but the end-game "important", than why waste time creating content for players to grind to reach the end-game? They don't even care about Lore anymore! Just make end-game and let them have fun, bring more End-Game content with Expacs, etc.
Do this and you definitively won't have as many issues with Gold Seller (such there will still be some but they won't be as "important".)
If all these players want is end-game then why not choose a game that caters to that, like the Diablos or Torchlight? Sounds like that is exactly what they want.
To be fair, skipping the leveling part wouldn't invalidate the MMO part, but rather the RPG part.. Again, people play games different ways and they assume a playstyle which fits them. In the end it's important to remember it's all about having meaningless fun.
Then why not just remove the boring part entirely and leave just the End-Game content. They already ditched the RPG aspect, can't be wrong with this choice. Hell, might even be the way to kill Gold Sellers.
Point is, if you are going to make anything but the end-game "important", than why waste time creating content for players to grind to reach the end-game? They don't even care about Lore anymore! Just make end-game and let them have fun, bring more End-Game content with Expacs, etc.
Do this and you definitively won't have as many issues with Gold Seller (such there will still be some but they won't be as "important".)
If all these players want is end-game then why not choose a game that caters to that, like the Diablos or Torchlight? Sounds like that is exactly what they want.
But apparently it's not MMO enough. They need a chatroom to release their anger! (The Barrens anyone?) The only social interaction that players seems to want in more mainstream MMOs is to simply know that there are other players around them. There's no need to group, no need to talk to them. Just them being there is "enough" to create the illusion of a social game. Replace them with NPCs, give them weird names like "doingurmom69" and they won't notice a damn thing!
Who is more lazy? Someone who works 8+ hours a day to earn a good income but only has a few hours to play a game at night or someone who spends 18+ hours a day sitting on their behind playing a game.
I vote the person sitting on their behind all day.
lol Too right mate!
Originally posted by Superman0X
People tend to make this overly complicated. It is very simply supply and demand.
There are items that people can BUY with gold, that they do not feel are worth the time effort to get themselves. These items are cheap in gold value, but are expensive in time/effort value. People have simply done the math, and decided to take the more efficient route.
This is not about being lazy. It is about being efficient. People buy their groceries not because they are too lazy to grow them, but because the tradeoff of time/money/effort makes it more productive to just buy them.
The solution to gold sales problems is to adress the issue in game (not outside of the game). Make the gold buy less of the items that people want, and make them more desirable to achieve themselves. This makes buying gold less atrractive, and doing it yourself more desirable.
See this guy understands it all too well.
All you other guys keep talking about WOW and yes gold is quite easy to get there but have you played Aion? It's ridiculous how long it takes to get money (Kinah) there! The game is absolutely brilliant, but the grind for gold just sucks! So if you take away the grind (buy the gold) you get a much more enjoyable game.
I personally would never go for power levelling though, because I think it takes the fun away from developing your character. Buying gold I have no problem with at all though, I mean really do you enjoy killing certain mobs over and over and over again for hours on end? I know I don't! And no when it comes to leveling the character I actually have quests to do or Instances to go to, and that's where all the fun is. You know tactics, team work, action and just pure fun!
I have to go to work throughout the week and to get to work and back, I have travel about 3 hours a day. I got a wife and daughter, which means I am even more time limited. So if I can cut out the boring repetitive grind for gold (and save hours), so that I can go to the truly fun part of the game (group quests, Instances, PvP etc.) for only 4-10 pounds a month. I have no problem doing that.
Having said that, I still do hate Bots! Buying gold doesn't mean you have to love the bots. Nothing is more annoying than coming across a bot who keeps taking away the mobs you are trying to kill. And I hate thieving b*st*rds that steal peoples accounts etc.. but that doesn't stop me from buying gold. I know the risk and if I am stupid enough to get my account stolen well then tough luck for me.
Having said that, I still do hate Bots! Buying gold doesn't mean you have to love the bots. Nothing is more annoying than coming across a bot who keeps taking away the mobs you are trying to kill. And I hate thieving b*st*rds that steal peoples accounts etc.. but that doesn't stop me from buying gold. I know the risk and if I am stupid enough to get my account stolen well then tough luck for me.
Doubt you're going to get a lot of sympathy although I'll salute you for your honesty. I would imagine most that hate spammers and bots feel the same way towards them but don't provide them with an income so they continue to clog up a game with their harassment or hurting the gameplay of others so aren't going to look kindly on someone that supports them existing in game.
Truthfully, if they didn't pull their shit in game I wouldn't mind them at all but I would be lying if I said it didn't bother me that resources had to be spent to try and curb them and the effect they have on those that want nothing to do with them.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
All you other guys keep talking about WOW and yes gold is quite easy to get there but have you played Aion? It's ridiculous how long it takes to get money (Kinah) there! The game is absolutely brilliant, but the grind for gold just sucks! So if you take away the grind (buy the gold) you get a much more enjoyable game.
I personally would never go for power levelling though, because I think it takes the fun away from developing your character. Buying gold I have no problem with at all though, I mean really do you enjoy killing certain mobs over and over and over again for hours on end? I know I don't! And no when it comes to leveling the character I actually have quests to do or Instances to go to, and that's where all the fun is. You know tactics, team work, action and just pure fun!
I have to go to work throughout the week and to get to work and back, I have travel about 3 hours a day. I got a wife and daughter, which means I am even more time limited. So if I can cut out the boring repetitive grind for gold (and save hours), so that I can go to the truly fun part of the game (group quests, Instances, PvP etc.) for only 4-10 pounds a month. I have no problem doing that.
Having said that, I still do hate Bots! Buying gold doesn't mean you have to love the bots. Nothing is more annoying than coming across a bot who keeps taking away the mobs you are trying to kill. And I hate thieving b*st*rds that steal peoples accounts etc.. but that doesn't stop me from buying gold. I know the risk and if I am stupid enough to get my account stolen well then tough luck for me.
Well by buying Gold, you are supporting the same activities that you hate (Bots). So I'm guessing you probably don't hate them as much as you say you do.
Sure it's perfectly understandable that people have limited free time, we all do. But if you really can't play a game without having to encourage illegal activities by buying gold, well maybe that game isn't for you in the first place. There are many casual-friendly games on the market that does not require you to buy gold to achieve anything (DDO, DFO, Wizard101, and so on). It's as simple as that. But of course....e-pride and all that crap....
Circling back to the OP, gold and item) selling were rampant in one of the first MMORPG's, UO, so much so that a GM got tagged for selling vitual houses and stuff for thousands of dollars.
The difference between then and now is in the early day, most gold and items were sold by players of the game. Fast forward 10 years and its a full fledged business, and seldom is gold sold by the player base anymore.
The early games weren't any more fun (OK, they were, but they still had horrific grinding activities) and people purchased gold or powerleveling on a regular basis.
I recall in DAOC, it was hard work in the old days to level a character to 50, so character buying and selling was quite common.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Circling back to the OP, gold and item) selling were rampant in one of the first MMORPG's, UO, so much so that a GM got tagged for selling vitual houses and stuff for thousands of dollars.
The difference between then and now is in the early day, most gold and items were sold by players of the game. Fast forward 10 years and its a full fledged business, and seldom is gold sold by the player base anymore.
The early games weren't any more fun (OK, they were, but they still had horrific grinding activities) and people purchased gold or powerleveling on a regular basis.
I recall in DAOC, it was hard work in the old days to level a character to 50, so character buying and selling was quite common.
Aye.
In UO back in the day people would sell True Black dye for real cash.
In EQ people would sell Plat and accounts via eBay and various other sites.
It happened in EVERY MMO, but it was mostly a Player-to-Player thing. Today it has become companies doing the selling.
It doesn't really matter how fun, grindy, hard or easy a game is. There will always be people looking for shortcuts, and thats what these companies provide.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Sorry you can't support something then deny responsibilty for the ill effects that inevitably result. Why you feel justified is beside the point.
lol, I don't know who's post you read because I never denied 'the ill effects that inevitably result.' In fact I wrote 'BUT that doesn't stop me from buying gold.'
Like most gold buyers, I used to be against it at first, but then I met a friend who told me he did buy himself. And I was shocked because this is the guy I raided with and played everyday with him for the longest time! Knowing about gold buyers and hating them is one thing but actually knowing one person that does and he is a "human being!" lol. It changed the way I looked towards gold buyers and eventually it led me to buying some myself. And I will have to thank him again the next time I speak to him.
And yes I very much feel justified. I know people that sell gold and they get their gold not from stealing accounts I can assure you that. (not that all don't, I'm just saying not all gold sellers are thieves)
I guess it's a love and hate relationship. I love the service they offer but I wish didn't and I hate them for it lol.
Comments
So why is it such a catastrophe that accomplishments take longer if the player has more obligations? Is it really that difficult to accept that with age, relationships, jobs, etc come time delays on something as insignificant as video games? I suppose I'm more aghast that players are willing to accept the most shallow gameplay for instant gratification. Insult if you will, but accomplishments that take more time or are more difficult tend to be more meaningful.
The new generation of MMORPG player doesn't seem to grasp that, and I don't think it sprang from WoW. American society in general has let them down.
As much as I agree with you, the market disagree. And that is quite sad.
But as I mentionned in an earlier post, Instant Gratification isn't the only reason why Gold Farming is so strong. We already have Instant Gratification! The reason why they are so strong is because they are able to gain control over the market and the economy, raising the prices and creating more demand for Gold.
The Law Of Unintended Consequences would seem to be in full effect here. Readers of Joseph Heller would probably add: "Nothing succeeds as planned".
The trouble is, people very often dont actually want what they think they want, and when they get it they're unhappy - so they demand more of it. Or in this case, less. Less challenge, less involvement, less immersion. Keep taking these things away, and what's left, exactly? Pretty much a high score board that only demands time. Let's take that requirement away too...
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I only have one fear regarding gold-sellers...
And that is the possibility of them causing a tax on virtual goods.
We'll never really know how far the nation is willing to go until it is too late,
but third world countries are proving it is a viable source of income.
I still don't understand the reasons behind people purchasing levelling and/or gold. Both are a part of the game, if you're not enjoying the gathering or levelling then surely the game isn't for you?
Let's use a different genre to illustrate. I go out and buy Modern Warfare 2 but find I don't enjoy the game. Do I:
a) Pay an additional sum so someone else can play it up until the end, then I take over and kill the last boss or..
b) Try and take the game back or just not play it..
What about Sims 3. I want to make a nice house but I'd have to play a while to get the money. Do I:
a) Pay real cash so I can have that money now or..
b) Consider the game is too harsh on my gaming style and decide not to bother..
If you answered B to both questions then you're a rational human being. If you answered A to any then get a grip and realise that it's just a game and isn't worth paying real money to get ahead.
Depends on the game.
It's easy to see why people might purchase levelling and/or gold in WoW, for example. The end-game is extremely different from the main body of the game experience and one can readily imagine someone saying:
"I want to PvP, raid and stuff but I don't want to schlep all the way from level 1 to 80 and grind tons of cash for professions and mounts".
To be frank you will probably never understand, or at least not until you see that people play games differently than you. Some might not like leveling, so they'll buy a maxed out toon for money. Their fun is in the end game only. Some people want that ultra-expensive über gear, but don't want to grind to get it. Their enjoyment comes from owning/showing off rare items. And so on..
The people who buy gold have already gotten a grip and realized that they are OK with spending money on "cheating". It's their playstyle, and though you and I may disagree, I for one understand that it's a perfectly rational choice.
MMOs have always been about progression. If people pay to avoid progression, is it ok not to call those games "MMOs"? Because that's what I think I'm going to do. I fully understand why they feel the need to pay for Gold, but given the various issues that comes from letting Gold Farmers go rampant....it's just not acceptable.
And if End-Game wasn't all about getting those Epics and End-Game, and instead more about the journey, it'd be a lot more interesting.
To be fair, skipping the leveling part wouldn't invalidate the MMO part, but rather the RPG part.. Again, people play games different ways and they assume a playstyle which fits them. In the end it's important to remember it's all about having meaningless fun.
Fixed for ya.
I play games for fun, but there is always meaning behind it.
I don't know about other MMORPGers, but usually it is to escape the monotony of regular life, and (or) all the problems that I face in Real Life.
Then why not just remove the boring part entirely and leave just the End-Game content. They already ditched the RPG aspect, can't be wrong with this choice. Hell, might even be the way to kill Gold Sellers.
Point is, if you are going to make anything but the end-game "important", than why waste time creating content for players to grind to reach the end-game? They don't even care about Lore anymore! Just make end-game and let them have fun, bring more End-Game content with Expacs, etc.
Do this and you definitively won't have as many issues with Gold Seller (such there will still be some but they won't be as "important".)
You are indeed correct, I should have phrased myself better. I didn't mean meningless as devoid of meaning, rather as a lack of seriousness. The 'meaning' is entertainment and escapism - which is something many seem to forget...
I don't see how the the level of gold selling currently equates to whether games are more, less, or the same amount of fun as they were in the past.
I mean if you really wanted to you could use the argument either way in comparison to the "fun factor" in an mmorpg to make your case since there really isn't a direct comparison.
1. Person A says that the increase in gold selling proves people are enjoying them less so they're willing to just buy their way through the game.
2. Person B says there has always been a market for gold sellers and the increase in them is simply due to an overall increase in people playing mmos because they have become "more mainstream and fun", so by default of course there will be an increase in sellers/buyers.
3. Person C says stop comparing apples to oranges.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Person A and Person B are both right. Person C can jump off a cliff.
The current crop of MMOs have "fun" end-game, but grinding your way to the top is boring as hell. This is already an incentive for players to just want to skip it so they can reach the "fun part". Then there's also the increase in population and the MMOs taking a more mainstream approach. The demand increases and so Gold Sellers has now become a viable way to quickly reach the top.
Then there's also the consequences of letting Gold Farmers become so important (they take over the market and it's economy, effectively raising all the prices to create an even greater demand of gold).
They're arguing opposite sides of the argument so to say they're both right really doesn't make a lot of sense. There are certainly plenty of arguments to be made for and against gold selling but trying to say it can be used to gauge the current fun factor in games really isn't one of them far as I'm concerned.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
These discussions are seldom resolved because you are presented with two different schools of though, of which neither side wants to buy into. Person A says, I'm an old school player who believes in earning your way to fun. Person B says, I don't have time to earn fun, I just want to have fun. Person A feels they have the superior high ground because person B is sullying their purest gaming experience.
Person B then presents their argument and explanation. Then the ad nauseam begins. I understand both sides of the argument and understand why people are Raiders, Casuals, Crafters/Trade Skillers, and any number of different gaming styles, its because people are different, their fun is different.
My personal solution is I stop minding other people's business and do what I enjoy. If people play within the rules then let them play how ever they want. There will be gold sellers because there are gold buyers, yet all the attention seems to be on the gold sellers. SOE is trying to combat this by allowing players to buy virtual cash from them, which has presented yet another crop of arguments.
People want solutions to these problems, however there isn't always a one sizes fits all answer.
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
I remember when I first started playing EQOA, people were selling gold and characters like crazy. Before that came out there was a huge article in some gaming magazine about how people were selling items, gold and characters in EQ for large amounts of money. Anyone who played the "old" MMOs knows this all to well. This has been going on for a long time and happened a lot in old days because it wasn't policed. Now that there is a huge player base and people saw all of the crazy amount of money you could make in the days of EQ. It has nothing to do with "fun" factor of new games.
If all these players want is end-game then why not choose a game that caters to that, like the Diablos or Torchlight? Sounds like that is exactly what they want.
But apparently it's not MMO enough. They need a chatroom to release their anger! (The Barrens anyone?) The only social interaction that players seems to want in more mainstream MMOs is to simply know that there are other players around them. There's no need to group, no need to talk to them. Just them being there is "enough" to create the illusion of a social game. Replace them with NPCs, give them weird names like "doingurmom69" and they won't notice a damn thing!
lol Too right mate!
See this guy understands it all too well.
All you other guys keep talking about WOW and yes gold is quite easy to get there but have you played Aion? It's ridiculous how long it takes to get money (Kinah) there! The game is absolutely brilliant, but the grind for gold just sucks! So if you take away the grind (buy the gold) you get a much more enjoyable game.
I personally would never go for power levelling though, because I think it takes the fun away from developing your character. Buying gold I have no problem with at all though, I mean really do you enjoy killing certain mobs over and over and over again for hours on end? I know I don't! And no when it comes to leveling the character I actually have quests to do or Instances to go to, and that's where all the fun is. You know tactics, team work, action and just pure fun!
I have to go to work throughout the week and to get to work and back, I have travel about 3 hours a day. I got a wife and daughter, which means I am even more time limited. So if I can cut out the boring repetitive grind for gold (and save hours), so that I can go to the truly fun part of the game (group quests, Instances, PvP etc.) for only 4-10 pounds a month. I have no problem doing that.
Having said that, I still do hate Bots! Buying gold doesn't mean you have to love the bots. Nothing is more annoying than coming across a bot who keeps taking away the mobs you are trying to kill. And I hate thieving b*st*rds that steal peoples accounts etc.. but that doesn't stop me from buying gold. I know the risk and if I am stupid enough to get my account stolen well then tough luck for me.
Doubt you're going to get a lot of sympathy although I'll salute you for your honesty. I would imagine most that hate spammers and bots feel the same way towards them but don't provide them with an income so they continue to clog up a game with their harassment or hurting the gameplay of others so aren't going to look kindly on someone that supports them existing in game.
Truthfully, if they didn't pull their shit in game I wouldn't mind them at all but I would be lying if I said it didn't bother me that resources had to be spent to try and curb them and the effect they have on those that want nothing to do with them.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Well by buying Gold, you are supporting the same activities that you hate (Bots). So I'm guessing you probably don't hate them as much as you say you do.
Sure it's perfectly understandable that people have limited free time, we all do. But if you really can't play a game without having to encourage illegal activities by buying gold, well maybe that game isn't for you in the first place. There are many casual-friendly games on the market that does not require you to buy gold to achieve anything (DDO, DFO, Wizard101, and so on). It's as simple as that. But of course....e-pride and all that crap....
Circling back to the OP, gold and item) selling were rampant in one of the first MMORPG's, UO, so much so that a GM got tagged for selling vitual houses and stuff for thousands of dollars.
The difference between then and now is in the early day, most gold and items were sold by players of the game. Fast forward 10 years and its a full fledged business, and seldom is gold sold by the player base anymore.
The early games weren't any more fun (OK, they were, but they still had horrific grinding activities) and people purchased gold or powerleveling on a regular basis.
I recall in DAOC, it was hard work in the old days to level a character to 50, so character buying and selling was quite common.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Aye.
In UO back in the day people would sell True Black dye for real cash.
In EQ people would sell Plat and accounts via eBay and various other sites.
It happened in EVERY MMO, but it was mostly a Player-to-Player thing. Today it has become companies doing the selling.
It doesn't really matter how fun, grindy, hard or easy a game is. There will always be people looking for shortcuts, and thats what these companies provide.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
lol, I don't know who's post you read because I never denied 'the ill effects that inevitably result.' In fact I wrote 'BUT that doesn't stop me from buying gold.'
Like most gold buyers, I used to be against it at first, but then I met a friend who told me he did buy himself. And I was shocked because this is the guy I raided with and played everyday with him for the longest time! Knowing about gold buyers and hating them is one thing but actually knowing one person that does and he is a "human being!" lol. It changed the way I looked towards gold buyers and eventually it led me to buying some myself. And I will have to thank him again the next time I speak to him.
And yes I very much feel justified. I know people that sell gold and they get their gold not from stealing accounts I can assure you that. (not that all don't, I'm just saying not all gold sellers are thieves)
I guess it's a love and hate relationship. I love the service they offer but I wish didn't and I hate them for it lol.