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Guild Wars 2: Lead Designer Eric Flannum Answers Dynamic Events Questions
MikeB
Community ManagerAdministrator RarePosts: 6,555
In a follow-up to yesterday's Q&A with Colin Johanson on Guild Wars 2's dynamic events system, Lead Designer Eric Flannum answers some additional questions in this latest post made to the official ArenaNet blog.
Kicking things off, Eric addresses the issue of griefing and the dynamic events systems, particularly when it comes to large guilds or organized efforts by sizeable amounts of players to disrupt these events:
Events never encourage player conflict, and never have fail conditions that can be actively triggered by players. For example, you won’t see any events that require players to be “stealthy” by say, sneaking by some sleeping guards. A player in this situation could quite easily choose to wake the guards up and ruin the fun for everyone. In the case where a player or group of players have figured out how to cause an event to fail, we have been very careful to not make any one particular event more desirable than another.
While encouraging, it doesn't sound like this is a foolproof solution, as Eric explains that "Events also occur frequently and all over the map. If someone is causing problems at a particular event, it isn’t difficult to find another one to participate in." This is all fine and dandy, however, I doubt players who have worked hard many stages into an event will find this to be an adequate solution if their event is griefed at the last minute.
Despite this, it's important to note that the ArenaNet team is still committed to reducing the effects of griefing as much as possible, "In the end, stopping griefing is one of our highest priorities. Through our playtesting we’ve already found a few ways in which some of our events could be griefed, and in every case we’ve made changes to stop it. At this point we think we’ve addressed most of these issues, but we’ll continue to be vigilant as we develop the game and will of course take whatever measures are needed to stop griefing after the game is released."
Continuing on, we learn that dynamic events will only scale to group size, and not level ranges, which means higher level players will have an easier time with events involving creatures they've outleveled.
Eric then goes on to discuss the impact of individual player choices in events, noting that dynamic events don't involve individual player choice the same way that your character's personal storyline would, in that events react to the world, and not to the player. If ogres are attacking a town the player can choose to help out or to ignorre it, but they cannot make a choice within an event that runs contrary to the choice of another player.
Next up is a question on whether or not tradtiional quests are used at all in Guild Wars 2, for either the dynamic events system or the personal storyline system, and Eric's response here provide some interesting revelations about the game:
We’ve actually gone away from using the term “quest” to describe any of our content. The feeling is that the word has a lot of baggage associated with it. It brings certain expectations and preconceptions that we don’t want players to have in mind when they play our game. That being said, there are no traditional quests in Guild Wars 2. We have three main types of content in the game. First, we have events which we’ve started talking about in some detail. Next we have the personal storyline, which is probably closest to being what players usually think of as a “quest” and yet it’s very different at the same time. We’ll be talking about the personal storyline very soon.
We can't say either way how similar to traditional "quests" a characters personal storyline will be, as Eric states that they are similar in some ways, but are very different at the same time, and not really going any further than that. However, we are promised that we should find out more about the personal storyline system "very soon."
Finally, Eric addresses the possibility of a zone being empty of events going on for any reason, and whether or not this would hamper a player's progress. To that end, we're told players will have many avenues to advance their character outside of the dynamic events system, including the pursuit of achievements, the character's personal storyline, discovering and earning traits, or even completing collections. Heck, if somehow a zone is empty of events you could simply go out and explore and trigger one yourself!
For additional details read the full Q&A with Eric Flannum over at the ArenaNet blog.
[Thanks Piasek for the tip!]
Comments
*Shaking with excitement*
"If all you can say is... "It's awful, it's not innovative, it's ugly, it's blah.." Then you're an unimaginative and unpolished excuse for human life" -eburn
Yeah it seems they are the one who MAY give the next baby step for the mmo genre
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
So the game scales by size of the group instead of level... thats interesting. Still sounds good for the most part but there are more questions I have on the scaling portion.
What I didn't like about this was that they said you only have two choices, to participate in the event, or not. That sounds like linearity of a system that originally sounded much less linear. Not that its a bad thing, I mean the scope of the events could still range much more widely, and the chains could open it up so that it doesn't get repetitive... but I was hoping that your interaction wasn't so pass or fail. At least thats how it sounded to me before.
That's a very simplified version of the obvious. It's logical that if you don't participate in the event then you'll have no affect on its outcome, whilst if you do choose to participate you will aid in determining the path the event will take. It's not linear more than it is a decision as to whether or not to take part. If you don't, others may choose to, and what they choose to do in the event will affect its outcome too. With so many people running around making their own choices, as well as the scaling and linking of events, linear is hardly a word I'd use to describe it personally
The only reason I chose that is because this is kind of how it sounds to me, personally. I thought that there were degrees of each event. Not just a pass/fail mechanic. It sounded more of a living, thinking world at first, but now it sounds less dynamic in the sense of the event, and more dynamic in the sense of when the event starts.
But I still like what I'm hearing, I like the way the group aspects are being explained. I think the major saving grace for me is that I was a fan of the first one.
It is linear, but not quite as much as you make it be. You have to remember that each event as a whole has multiple stages. Then each stage can fork into 2 more stages. With that in mind, remember that events CAN interfere with each other. This means you may be on course with one event and then suddenly realise you are on a different event.
Imagine something like this... Ogres attack a farm. You try to defend but lose. The ogres set up camp and light the corn fields on fire... because ogres don't eat that stuff. Well now you have to go to the nearest river/lake and fill buckets of water to help put out the fire. When you get to the river you realise that the bridge across was destroyed and bandits are attacking the folks who are repairing it. You help them and win, unfortunatley one of them died. His surviving buddies have you go to his home and inform the family of the bridge incident. When you get there you hear guards yelling and recruiting people to fight off the orgres outside of town. When you join up, you find out that the fire had destroyed everything and now the ogres are sieging nearby villages. Because you were part of two different quests, you now have a choice of going to help the farmer rebuild or defending the nearby villages..
Something like that
This is great stuff. Now about those other unannounced classes....
Im really enjoying both the ideas theyre implementing in GW2, as well as the overall attitude they seem to have during the development. As another article posted today discussed, there's generally an "us vs them" attitude, but Anet doesn't seem to be following that trend. It really sound slike they want to make the game as enjoyable and fresh as possible, and are doing all they can to avoid problems (such as griefing) before they become a problem, rather than the usual "lets just toss this in the game, and then we will see what happens after launch and fix the problems months later". Theyre actually using a bit of insight, worthwile testing, and common sense for a change. Every interview i see with them reassures me that theyre really aiming for as smooth & functional a launch as possible while also bringing something new to the table, rather than just polishing up things that have been done over and over for years.
At the rate theyre going, this could be about the only fully functional game we see launched in the past couple of years, rather than half assed unfinished games & nonworking features. God, I sound like a rabid fanboy, but what can i say, Anet seems to be doing an amazing job so far with the game. Hopefully my trust in Anet to really make GW2 shine doesn't wind up being misplaced and the game falling short in many aspects like nearly everything ive played recently. The main thing im hopeful for is that if GW2 is as great as it is starting to look, some other devs out there will take a queue from Anet and step up their next MMOs a lot. I don't expect GW2 to be a "wow-killer" or anything along those lines, but i do hope it at least does enough to raise a red flag for other companies that makes them say "hey, we need to stop doing things half assed and try new things ourselves". If GW2 doesn't manage to do that, i hope something else does in this next year.
post of the year.....copy that and save it for all those who question the events
I really like the idea of Karma and the fact that it is gained from ANY event which simply leads to more choice. This way no one should be mad or sad that they missed a particular event or event chain because other than the fun of doing that event you don't miss out on any special rewards.
Sounds more and more like you can play to have fun, not play certain sections of the game because the game tells you that you have to.
I also like that these are devs that actually have something to say. It's not meaningless PR, we are actually learning about not only the game but the design principles behind it. It remains to be seen if they can keep this up in the long term.
Interesting, so there will be collections, traits and achievements besides "dungeons", the personal storyline and events.
The more different kind of stuff we have to do, the better.
"Continuing on, we learn that dynamic events will only scale to group size, and not level ranges, which means higher level players will have an easier time with events involving creatures they've outleveled."
So high level characters can participate in low level events - making them trivial. Bad design. They won't be exciting challenges, they will be power leveling opportunities.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Ah doubter, time for some fun again i see :-P
You're basing this on things you know nothing about yet. For starters, in order for anyone to power level, they will need to be in party together. Do you know if they will even allow grouping of all level ranges, or if you will need to be within say, 5 levels or so of eachother to group? Or if the grouping is allowed, will the rewards even be shared evenly, or will the higher level player who is not earning XP for the kills also bring down the overall gain for the rest in the party too? Hell, for all we know, the XP gained in events could be very trivial, and the rewards may just focus on gold & karma (also a currency), and the majority of XP gained through missions & dungeons (which would be just as power leveling capable as the events, even if the events didnt exist).
Looking at what theyre doing concerning griefing and stuff, surely this is something theyve considered too. You know a very very small portion of all the details you need to know to make any judgement about the rewards & xp, so just be patient and see what else they say. When youve got most of the details, and it still sounds bad to you, then make a judgement call based on that.
I hope the devs are reading this thread because such revelations need to be recognised. With this new knowledge they are going to have to go and rethink this whole dynamic event thing. Sigh.
There is already the announced side-kick system. How it works right now is unclear. What I know is that a low level and a high level playing together will somehow balance it off. That is to say, if I am level 5 I can join up with a level 40 and still play normally as if we were both 5... or 40. Not sure yet.
I am not absolutley sure, but I can think your level can scale slightly depending on where you are. I do know that the team wants you to play with whom ever you want, no matter what level they are.
That would be an excellent feature to have in the game. It is something very lacking in WoW.
How much effect will it have though? If you get leveled up to 40, you still won't have L40 gear or abilities? If not - good luck getting into groups.
Waiting for the "but gear won't be that important. This isn't WoW." posters...
In my most humble and unworthy opinion: down-leveling the higher character could work well. Up-leveling the lower character - not so much.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Definitely agree with the last part there. Either that, or at least have rewards scale to your real levels such as if youre boosted to level 50, and kill a level 50 mob, but youre really level 10, it gives you the equivalent of killing a level 10 mob.
As far as the being wanted in groups thing, well IMO thats a good thing. If you want to get into real groups with people you dont know, then you should have to work your way up. But if youre grouping with a friend, or few friends/guildies and theyre willing to accept you based on that friendship & just wanting to play together rather than what you can do for the group, then thats up to them.
Here's what they stated about the side-kick system involving Events in another forum.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=168091&postcount=109
Age of reason and progression.
The article was only saying that to point out that there are no individual player choices. Any individual can only choose to participate or not. The actual system is not linear though as it isn't simply a pass or fail concept. They've already described several events that have multiple outcomes based on when, where and how the players succeed in completing the event.
Essentially no one player alone can choose the course of an event, instead the overall success of everyone taking part decides where the event leads.
Please send me your address. I will be able to point you to people that will make your life very exciting. They will tell what to eat, where to sleep and what to think. And they will beat you to death, should you disobey.
They are... the MMORPGs with limited choices :-P
Surely one can put the binders on. Look at WAR - you will turn into chicken, if your level is too high.
I don't care, if they are, or will be.
I will be there for a story and the feel of it. Should I deem the Event good, I will participate in it, even if I am 1 000 levels higher.
That is my choice. Others may choose differently.
And yet... who the hell are you, to take my choice away? Besides, the moment of making a choice is the most interesting part.
If you only can kill X with a +Y Spear, or run a dungeon only in a ZXCY set-up that pretty much beats the point of playing.
This is the rational that griefers use. Not saying you are but it is this attitude that breaks games for many people outside of yourself.
I do understand your overall point but the fact of the matter is all MMO's are about lots of people in a single environment trying to enjoy it. As a considerate individual you must look at your own choices and make a decision as to how that affects the people around you and if it is a negative outcome then you should choose to not do it. Running a high level character through a low level area and killing everything usually has broad negative consequences for all the low level people trying to have fun. Your "right" to have fun does not exceed their "right" to have fun. No matter how much you paid to play the game.
As to high level characters breaking low level events...not too many ways to stop that without some form of chicken style mechanic. Of course it does not have to be as drastic as turning into a chicken just the reduction in level and power to a reasonable amount should be sufficient and it sounds like this is what they are doing so...everything I read about how they are handling things leads me to think they are heading in the right direction.
The main point is simple - instead of blocking a path, make a clever consequences that will filter out most of the abuse. It is not that hard, in many cases.
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Long version
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This just showns the wisdom of the Lord, that created the planet. Not only did he create life, he also created consequences of the actions.
Sure, I am well aware of the fact, that not all people are as considerate as Elminster Aumar, who could just stand by and chat while the party of "heroes" were kicking an evil dragon.
He knew, that dragon-beating is a quite character-building (albeit dangerous) stuff.
The point is, that everyone can just block the path. It's no-brainer. Yet this is the most uninteresting path to follow (not to mention, that some ways of it, like the chicken, break immersion greatly).
"It breaks the game" not because griefers can grief. It breaks it because the consequences for griefing are not hard enough. There are millions of relatively easy ways to make griefer's life hell, with relatively low effort, code-wise.
Let's take a standard low-level ganking situation. For every helpless low-level killed, the "griefer" gets one negative karma point. When he dies (we all die in MMO-s from time to time) he will be taken to the Purgatory, and will have to fight the Boss. For every 1 point of negative karma this fight will lengthen for 5 minutes. To prevent AFK-ing the Boss, it will be required to push random buttons from time to time, otherwise it is a 1-hit kill. Also, while in Purgatory, the creation of the new characters will be blocked.
i really really hope that Anet actually manages to pull this off.
and even tough it does not work perfectly it is the step in the right dirrection..
i mean who is not fed up with the "go there kill X and come back for a reward" type of quests
but hopfully it will work out so more MMO's move in this direction rather than going the safe road of doing what the game before them did with minor tweeks
Sorry for typos... dyslexic and just too damn lazy to proof read every post for 30 min
(yes i am aware of spell check but it does not help that much
another article about the event system, with another example, but more detailed, and tells an actual playtester experience:
http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/05/20/guild-wars-2-events-de-compartmentalizing/
some excerpts:
we’ve been running some brand new players through Guild Wars 2 in some very targeted focus tests lately to see how they’ll react to the world we’ve created. Some of these players have been strongly conditioned by years of MMO playing to look specifically for quest bangs over the heads of NPCs and ignore everything else. We have found that at first, they tend to ignore the events going on in the world. They might run right past a fisherman imploring passersby to kill a marauding Drake Broodmother and they might even run by a wheat field being burned to ground by bandits.
this dynamic event system needs getting used to, especially after doing quests after quests in current MMOs
All of this occurred without her accepting a single quest, and our tester got a nice heroic story about how her character helped save an entire village. Of course, she arrived somewhere in the middle of the event chain—she didn’t even find out what caused the poisoning in the first place.
Of course, the event system is very open-ended and does not necessarily satisfy the “achiever” play style. We understand this, and have many systems in mind to help out. Let’s talk about a few of them.
First, we have the character’s personal storyline, which makes use of instancing and will always give the player an individual goal of some sort. Second, we have our achievement system, which tracks a player’s activities and rewards their progress with titles.
Have fun storming the castle! - Miracle Max