Knowing I stay away from games like WoW and EQ2 makes life so much easier, knowing I'm not being nickeled and dimed at every turn.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time understanding the "being nickled and dimed" view of things. I guess it's because, at least so far, the item shops in the major p2p MMOs that have them, don't include any items that make one bit of difference in how good you are at the game. But also....how is a company "nickle and diming" anyone if they're not forced to buy any of these RMT items?
I have purchased items in a couple of games....WoW, Perfect World, and EQ2. BUT....I don't feel COMPELLED to do so. If I happen to see something I think would be fun or cute or w/e....I might get it IF I have the spare change to get it...or...I might not. I certainly don't feel "nickled and dimed" though, because none of that stuff is a necessity. It's kind of like....well....do you consider the grocery store "nickle and diming" you because of the candy and sodas that they have at the check out lane? I mean...the stuff is there....they WANT you to buy it as a last minute impulse purchase....but no one is twisting your arm.
I think maybe people with poor impulse control with their spending habits....might be more bothered by this kind of thing, maybe. I just don't even think about really. And I have yet to see anyone on Everfrost with one of these mounts. Most people already HAVE mounts that are quested or earned in other ways that are SO so so much better (they are faster and have more useful stats on them)......that this wouldn't even make them turn their head.
I'm sure I'll see some of these appear eventually, but...they don't seem terribly popular as of yet on Everfrost. Meh...guess time will tell. /shrug
Knowing I stay away from games like WoW and EQ2 makes life so much easier, knowing I'm not being nickeled and dimed at every turn.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time understanding the "being nickled and dimed" view of things. I guess it's because, at least so far, the item shops in the major p2p MMOs that have them, don't include any items that make one bit of difference in how good you are at the game. But also....how is a company "nickle and diming" anyone if they're not forced to buy any of these RMT items?
I think people are seeing the growing trend of developers removing content from the development cycle and trying to charge an additional fee for not doing any extra work. The loss is indirect and most don't recognize it. The developers who are tasked with making these items, the cash to item interfaces, the marketing, the decision process of what to sell, etc all come from time that is removed from the normal content development cycle.
After seeing adventure packs, premium websites, additional character slots, random loot card lottery, station exchange, stations cash, live gamer on top of all the character move, rename, transfer, haircut and whatever other tom foolery is bolted ontop of a game I can totally understand why people feel like they are being nickle and dimed to death. It seems every time a player turns around there is some new cash grab. Required or not it is seems to be constantly thrown into the players faces.
Sure only a few of the items right now affect gameplay directly, but things are heading that way and it doesn't take a lot to understand that those items will sell better than fluff items. The trend is pretty clear.
I know some will say "it isn't there yet, so stop complaining", but why should people wait until it is to late?
The core of the problem is that developers are giving less and less and expecting to be rewarded for it. They are effectively selling less than 100% of the game they sold the previous month and expect extra money in return for it. There is zero benefit for players in this type of system. Items are removed from the content cycle and held for ransom. It doesn't really matter what the content is or what company is doing it. It is a complete loss for the players and only benefits the company.
Yet people are rushing to defend this or tell people it isn't a big deal yet and nothing worth worrying about. Again nothing to worry about yet.
Why should one who has to pay for base game, a monthly fee, adveture packs, expansion packs etc...have to pay for more crap?
nickel & dime you to death? Whoever started this trend should be smacked.
The answer to your question is really IN your question.... no one HAS to pay for any of this extra fluff stuff at ALL. The only person that can make you "HAVE to pay" is yourself. And EQ2 only had 2 adventure packs...Splitpaw and the DeMorte/Vampire thing, and both of those were years ago. I think the community raised a pretty big stink, they must not have sold all that well, and now...they haven't had any more in years.
I think any company has a right to try out new ways of making more income. Take PCGamer magazine. They have two different subscription prices (and maybe this is what MMOs should go to)....one that includes the demos disc, and one that doesn't. Perhaps MMOs should, instead of item shops, go to a multiple subscription model....one where you get everything except the item shop type fluff, and one that includes all the fluff but costs twice as much or something. I'm thinking though...that they probably make more money THIS way, because a lot of people actually LIKE having choices. Like maybe they don't want an effervescent wand that has an animation of blowing bubbles, but they DO want a stutffed blue frog that will sit in their house, or a mermaid scale looking neon blue cloak (ugh). I don't know....I'm just guessing here.
What I DO know...is that these big game houses like Blizzard and SoE....they PAY marketing people to determine what they should do. I'm sure a fair amount of research goes into it. For all the people that whine about it on these forums and elsewhere....they're still making millions from SOMEONE. So there ARE gamers out there that not only like these kinds of things, but spend money on them.
Myself...I like having any extra options in a game that a company wants to add. Do I always take advantage OF those options? No. But I like having them nonetheless. After all...it's entertainment. It's only a game. I don't go to a movie or football game and expect them to give me a free soda and popcorn or hotdogs, etc. There's the ticket price for the one kind of entertainment...and then there are fluff items that are not necessary for enjoying the movie, or ball game, or whatever, but they are things I might enjoy along with the regularly scheduled entertainment. Sometimes I buy a beer and hotdog...sometimes I don't. But I'd miss it if they took the hotdog option away.
I'm really not sure why game companies that make a product that can entertain us DAILY for 50 cents a day (you can't even buy a cup of coffee for that any more)....should be held to some restriction on the amount of money they can try to make in other ways outside of that measly 50 cents a day. And I'm sure someone will soon point out...."yes, but that have billions of dollars!!" Well sure they do. So what? Is there a limit on how much money a company can make? So far as I know...there's not. And I bet if we went back and read the ToS of all these games....they never promise to "all-inclusively" cover ever single possible "addition" to the product as is (when you buy it) with just your monthly fee alone.
Why do people have to pay extra to get a navigation package in a car? Do you have to have it? No. You pay extra because people want it and will pay for it.
Why do people have to pay extra to get a navigation package in a car? Do you have to have it? No. You pay extra because people want it and will pay for it.
EXACTLY. And you don't see people arguing that that should be included in EVERY car package. Oh sure...they might WISH it was...but if it was, I'm betting the price of cars would go up. Instead of raising the price, they give people the option of choosing additional perks that aren't necessary....first it was electric windows and seats and the sun/moon roof, now....it's GPS, OnStar (which also costs an additional monthly fee on top of costing more to add as an option at purchase), seats that heat up your butt when it's cold outside, and DVD players and screens. None of that stuff is necessary, but the options are nice.
These mounts suck compared to the one you can buy in game. Its only useful to new players but by the time they hit 50 they would need to replace their mount.
As an EQ2 player, I’m less than happy about this. Like previous poster stated before it creates two classes of player. One with enough disposable income to buy these extra goodies, and those who can’t. I have the feeling that it’s only a matter of time before they will be selling armour and swords and exp pots. I think it’s enough that I pay for my sub and expansions without paying for stuff on the marketplace, or feeling that I am missing out. Besides, one of the reasons I pay for a sub is to avoid the downside of F2P games which do have players that buy atk and df buffs and exp pots etc, giving them the edge in pvp etc. I can’t see the point in paying for a subscription if I have to pay other costs to stay competitive.
I don’t mind paying for digital content on single player games on the xbox marketplace since it largely doesn’t effect anyone. I don’t even mind paying for realm or name changes. But I draw the line on class and race change, and in game items. These things I think should be earned by playing the game, otherwise there is no difference between buying gold from gold farmers and buying from the marketplace. I’m seriously considering leaving EQ2 and when I do, it will be the last time I will give my cash to these digital whores.
Mounts are something that are typically created as part of the base game and monthly subscription content updates.
Navigation systems are not a standard part of a cars features and thus not an expected to be included in the base car purchase.
An analogy is fine as long as it doesn't misrepresent that true aspects of what is being discussed.
It stupifies me to hear people defend companies short selling customers as if everyone should just shut up and accept it.
And mounts are still in the games that have these. As a matter of fact, the REGULAR in game earned mounts are far BETTER than the purchased one.
And I never said anyone should shut up and accept it. To me it sounds more like YOU are saying that people that don't have an issue with it should shut up and let the people that want to complain do so without having to hear the other side of the argument.
As an EQ2 player, I’m less than happy about this. Like previous poster stated before it creates two classes of player. One with enough disposable income to buy these extra goodies, and those who can’t. I have the feeling that it’s only a matter of time before they will be selling armour and swords and exp pots. I think it’s enough that I pay for my sub and expansions without paying for stuff on the marketplace, or feeling that I am missing out. Besides, one of the reasons I pay for a sub is to avoid the downside of F2P games which do have players that buy atk and df buffs and exp pots etc, giving them the edge in pvp etc. I can’t see the point in paying for a subscription if I have to pay other costs to stay competitive.
I don’t mind paying for digital content on single player games on the xbox marketplace since it largely doesn’t effect anyone. I don’t even mind paying for realm or name changes. But I draw the line on class and race change, and in game items. These things I think should be earned by playing the game, otherwise there is no difference between buying gold from gold farmers and buying from the marketplace. I’m seriously considering leaving EQ2 and when I do, it will be the last time I will give my cash to these digital whores.
Ahh but there IS a difference.....
Gold farmers are selling someone ELSE'S intellectual property and making a profit from it (against most EULAs). In game marketplaces are selling the company's OWN intellectual property. (And the argument that gold farmers are selling their own time and "work" to obtain the gold is moot, because it's still against the EULA, and they are trading a virtual representation of the company's intellectual property.)
And btw, I don't know how long you've been playing EQ2, but they've had xp pots you can buy on the marketplace for a long long time. They're not as good as the veteran reward ones, but they're not anything to sneeze at exactly.
As an EQ2 player, I’m less than happy about this. Like previous poster stated before it creates two classes of player. One with enough disposable income to buy these extra goodies, and those who can’t. I have the feeling that it’s only a matter of time before they will be selling armour and swords and exp pots. I think it’s enough that I pay for my sub and expansions without paying for stuff on the marketplace, or feeling that I am missing out. Besides, one of the reasons I pay for a sub is to avoid the downside of F2P games which do have players that buy atk and df buffs and exp pots etc, giving them the edge in pvp etc. I can’t see the point in paying for a subscription if I have to pay other costs to stay competitive.
I don’t mind paying for digital content on single player games on the xbox marketplace since it largely doesn’t effect anyone. I don’t even mind paying for realm or name changes. But I draw the line on class and race change, and in game items. These things I think should be earned by playing the game, otherwise there is no difference between buying gold from gold farmers and buying from the marketplace. I’m seriously considering leaving EQ2 and when I do, it will be the last time I will give my cash to these digital whores.
Problem solvd then i guess. Since the mount is just a pretty fluff item and has zero effect on you. When SOE starts selling armor and weapons in store your complaint might be valid, but that will never happen.
Just another example, like cryptic, as to how cheap this SOE studio is. As I mentioned in another thread, it's not surprising that studios dont do as well as they remotely plan they will, with as out of touch with what would make a great entertaining game as opposed to a mediocer one. And to compensate for their lack of talent, they decide on other ways to fleece their existing player-base.
What a great add this new feature would have made for the Sentinels Fate Expansion pack. But not only is this a shallow means to make a buck, it's exactly the path that a lazy studio takes to compensate for a shallow following.
I think the purchasable expansion pack content adds have been fine, but this is an example of Instead of developing progressive content, features or abilities into their game that would 'attract' more, sustain more, such as a new mount trainer skill or horse farmer tradeskill/profession, they replace content and feature adds with real-money feature transactions.
So as mentioned above, its box + subscription + expansion packs + real money transaction features/perks. Give me a break.
This has always been a slippert slope with real-money game store feature/item purchases, and screams of a cheap product to me. I'd hope that this nonsense would be a final straw for a number of their players as opposed to being sheep following SOE (Shallow Online Entertainment) and buying into it. Certainly, this type of tchotchke item sales just cheapens the intefrity of the product, and if you didnt think SOE's could be portrayed as being any more shallow than they already are, well, here ua have it.
Great post which touches on the most troubling aspect of the trend in mmo development and is in some ways creeping into console gaming as well. For the longest I've been mostly indifferent to the use of rmt's in games but far too often devs are starting to just ignore those of us who expect more than we got five years ago and cater to the rabid nature of the few who may survive a games lack of content/features.
Luckily for me I don't care for SOE and as such am not really effected by this but I did play STO and know the feeling associated with this lazy development tactic and am now after seeing another company with a game I consider to be lacking as close as I've ever been to crossing over and avoiding all of the companies who use rmt's to send a message.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
As an EQ2 player, I’m less than happy about this. Like previous poster stated before it creates two classes of player. One with enough disposable income to buy these extra goodies, and those who can’t. I have the feeling that it’s only a matter of time before they will be selling armour and swords and exp pots. I think it’s enough that I pay for my sub and expansions without paying for stuff on the marketplace, or feeling that I am missing out. Besides, one of the reasons I pay for a sub is to avoid the downside of F2P games which do have players that buy atk and df buffs and exp pots etc, giving them the edge in pvp etc. I can’t see the point in paying for a subscription if I have to pay other costs to stay competitive.
I don’t mind paying for digital content on single player games on the xbox marketplace since it largely doesn’t effect anyone. I don’t even mind paying for realm or name changes. But I draw the line on class and race change, and in game items. These things I think should be earned by playing the game, otherwise there is no difference between buying gold from gold farmers and buying from the marketplace. I’m seriously considering leaving EQ2 and when I do, it will be the last time I will give my cash to these digital whores.
Ahh but there IS a difference.....
Gold farmers are selling someone ELSE'S intellectual property and making a profit from it (against most EULAs). In game marketplaces are selling the company's OWN intellectual property. (And the argument that gold farmers are selling their own time and "work" to obtain the gold is moot, because it's still against the EULA, and they are trading a virtual representation of the company's intellectual property.)
And btw, I don't know how long you've been playing EQ2, but they've had xp pots you can buy on the marketplace for a long long time. They're not as good as the veteran reward ones, but they're not anything to sneeze at exactly.
Pots don't work in PvP...at least in EQ2.
Nice to see someone rushing to the defence of a giant multi-national. Using the illegality of gold selling as the only difference between selling gold and buying from a marketplace is a little thin.
From a players standpoint there in NO difference, regardless if your buing gold/Items from a goldseller or "imgame store", both are using RL money to enhance their avatar.
From a players standpoint there in NO difference, regardless if your buing gold/Items from a goldseller or "imgame store", both are using RL money to enhance their avatar.
But the point here is what kind of enhancement? just pure cosmetic or the one which makes you better then other players .
Parent Post Posted by Getalife on 5/22/10 at 12:51:13 PM
Originally posted by Alkozath From a players standpoint there in NO difference, regardless if your buing gold/Items from a goldseller or "imgame store", both are using RL money to enhance their avatar.
But the point here is what kind of enhancement? just pure cosmetic or the one which makes you better then other players .
true, would say that anything that enhances the performance of the player then.
As an EQ2 player, I’m less than happy about this. Like previous poster stated before it creates two classes of player. One with enough disposable income to buy these extra goodies, and those who can’t. I have the feeling that it’s only a matter of time before they will be selling armour and swords and exp pots. I think it’s enough that I pay for my sub and expansions without paying for stuff on the marketplace, or feeling that I am missing out. Besides, one of the reasons I pay for a sub is to avoid the downside of F2P games which do have players that buy atk and df buffs and exp pots etc, giving them the edge in pvp etc. I can’t see the point in paying for a subscription if I have to pay other costs to stay competitive.
I don’t mind paying for digital content on single player games on the xbox marketplace since it largely doesn’t effect anyone. I don’t even mind paying for realm or name changes. But I draw the line on class and race change, and in game items. These things I think should be earned by playing the game, otherwise there is no difference between buying gold from gold farmers and buying from the marketplace. I’m seriously considering leaving EQ2 and when I do, it will be the last time I will give my cash to these digital whores.
Ahh but there IS a difference.....
Gold farmers are selling someone ELSE'S intellectual property and making a profit from it (against most EULAs). In game marketplaces are selling the company's OWN intellectual property. (And the argument that gold farmers are selling their own time and "work" to obtain the gold is moot, because it's still against the EULA, and they are trading a virtual representation of the company's intellectual property.)
And btw, I don't know how long you've been playing EQ2, but they've had xp pots you can buy on the marketplace for a long long time. They're not as good as the veteran reward ones, but they're not anything to sneeze at exactly.
Pots don't work in PvP...at least in EQ2.
Nice to see someone rushing to the defence of a giant multi-national. Using the illegality of gold selling as the only difference between selling gold and buying from a marketplace is a little thin.
Well, as disgusting as large multi-national corporations can be, they...
Employ a ton of people which means jobs and services for a particular area.
They pay taxes though I'm sure they spend a great deal of time figuring out how to lessen that amount
They create products that many of us actually use such as movies, cars, stereo equipment, TV's, light bulbs, etc.
I bet most of your 401k or IRA or mutual fund investments have multi national corporations in the porfolio so you are benefitting from their success
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As an EQ2 player, I’m less than happy about this. Like previous poster stated before it creates two classes of player. One with enough disposable income to buy these extra goodies, and those who can’t. I have the feeling that it’s only a matter of time before they will be selling armour and swords and exp pots. I think it’s enough that I pay for my sub and expansions without paying for stuff on the marketplace, or feeling that I am missing out. Besides, one of the reasons I pay for a sub is to avoid the downside of F2P games which do have players that buy atk and df buffs and exp pots etc, giving them the edge in pvp etc. I can’t see the point in paying for a subscription if I have to pay other costs to stay competitive.
I don’t mind paying for digital content on single player games on the xbox marketplace since it largely doesn’t effect anyone. I don’t even mind paying for realm or name changes. But I draw the line on class and race change, and in game items. These things I think should be earned by playing the game, otherwise there is no difference between buying gold from gold farmers and buying from the marketplace. I’m seriously considering leaving EQ2 and when I do, it will be the last time I will give my cash to these digital whores.
Ahh but there IS a difference.....
Gold farmers are selling someone ELSE'S intellectual property and making a profit from it (against most EULAs). In game marketplaces are selling the company's OWN intellectual property. (And the argument that gold farmers are selling their own time and "work" to obtain the gold is moot, because it's still against the EULA, and they are trading a virtual representation of the company's intellectual property.)
And btw, I don't know how long you've been playing EQ2, but they've had xp pots you can buy on the marketplace for a long long time. They're not as good as the veteran reward ones, but they're not anything to sneeze at exactly.
Pots don't work in PvP...at least in EQ2.
Nice to see someone rushing to the defence of a giant multi-national. Using the illegality of gold selling as the only difference between selling gold and buying from a marketplace is a little thin.
Well, as disgusting as large multi-national corporations can be, they...
Employ a ton of people which means jobs and services for a particular area.
They pay taxes though I'm sure they spend a great deal of time figuring out how to lessen that amount
They create products that many of us actually use such as movies, cars, stereo equipment, TV's, light bulbs, etc.
I bet most of your 401k or IRA or mutual fund investments have multi national corporations in the porfolio so you are benefitting from their success
Sure, and I'm sure they do it out of the kindness of their hearts,and not out of enlightened self interest. Of course I can't talk since I work for IBM. However, this is largely irrelevant. It comes down to this; you either believe that a game should be fair and sporting in all aspects or you believe that a player should be able to use every opportunity or resource available, regardless of fairness so long as it is within the rules (or not).
Well, as disgusting as large multi-national corporations can be, they...
Employ a ton of people which means jobs and services for a particular area.
They pay taxes though I'm sure they spend a great deal of time figuring out how to lessen that amount
They create products that many of us actually use such as movies, cars, stereo equipment, TV's, light bulbs, etc.
I bet most of your 401k or IRA or mutual fund investments have multi national corporations in the porfolio so you are benefitting from their success
Sure, and I'm sure they do it out of the kindness of their hearts,and not out of enlightened self interest. Of course I can't talk since I work for IBM. However, this is largely irrelevant. It comes down to this; you either believe that a game should be fair and sporting in all aspects or you believe that a player should be able to use every opportunity or resource available, regardless of fairness so long as it is within the rules (or not).
I don't believe I ever said anything about "kindness of their hearts". Nor was it implied. I get that corporatoins are about making money.
And remember... you work for IBM. You accept their paycheck, you accept their benefits and presumably you will be there for a good long while? I know my uncle who worked for IBM was a lifer though things could have changed.
So point is, if people are going to start dissing large corporations in any real manner I sort of feel that they need to assess how those corporatioins fit into their lives. Otherwise you are biting the hand that feeds you. We all know that large corporations exist to make money for shareholders. But we are those shareholders. And in some cases, employees. So I don't go dissing large corporations but I do diss their actions when they do things that are not what I consider ethically correct. equating buying from gold sellers to buying from the game company seems to be off the mark.
As far as a game being fair and sporting you are correct but only in context.
It's sony's game. or in other cases blizzard's game, turbine's game, etc. If they deem that they want to add purchasable content that they feel doesn't imbalance game play then it's their game to change.
It's then consumer's decision whether or not partake if he/she sees that it is contrary to their ideas of what the game should be.
I realize some people will claim that buying anything in game goes against the idea of the game but I certainly don't agree.
Then that really doesn't affect the other players. I'll just look a bit pauncy.
I equate these items to the same thing. They really don't affect us in a direct way unless we want to just "be that guy". If I buy good looking cosmetic armor, other than your sensibiliities it doesn't alter game play at all exept it makes the game more enjoyable for me. Same with this mount. One can get better mounts in game if one wants to.
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Well, as disgusting as large multi-national corporations can be, they...
Employ a ton of people which means jobs and services for a particular area.
They pay taxes though I'm sure they spend a great deal of time figuring out how to lessen that amount
They create products that many of us actually use such as movies, cars, stereo equipment, TV's, light bulbs, etc.
I bet most of your 401k or IRA or mutual fund investments have multi national corporations in the porfolio so you are benefitting from their success
Sure, and I'm sure they do it out of the kindness of their hearts,and not out of enlightened self interest. Of course I can't talk since I work for IBM. However, this is largely irrelevant. It comes down to this; you either believe that a game should be fair and sporting in all aspects or you believe that a player should be able to use every opportunity or resource available, regardless of fairness so long as it is within the rules (or not).
I don't believe I ever said anything about "kindness of their hearts". Nor was it implied. I get that corporatoins are about making money.
And remember... you work for IBM. You accept their paycheck, you accept their benefits and presumably you will be there for a good long while? I know my uncle who worked for IBM was a lifer though things could have changed.
So point is, if people are going to start dissing large corporations in any real manner I sort of feel that they need to assess how those corporatioins fit into their lives. Otherwise you are biting the hand that feeds you. We all know that large corporations exist to make money for shareholders. But we are those shareholders. And in some cases, employees. So I don't go dissing large corporations but I do diss their actions when they do things that are not what I consider ethically correct. equating buying from gold sellers to buying from the game company seems to be off the mark.
As far as a game being fair and sporting you are correct but only in context.
It's sony's game. or in other cases blizzard's game, turbine's game, etc. If they deem that they want to add purchasable content that they feel doesn't imbalance game play then it's their game to change.
It's then consumer's decision whether or not partake if he/she sees that it is contrary to their ideas of what the game should be.
I realize some people will claim that buying anything in game goes against the idea of the game but I certainly don't agree.
Then that really doesn't affect the other players. I'll just look a bit pauncy.
I equate these items to the same thing. They really don't affect us in a direct way unless we want to just "be that guy". If I buy good looking cosmetic armor, other than your sensibiliities it doesn't alter game play at all exept it makes the game more enjoyable for me. Same with this mount. One can get better mounts in game if one wants to.
well the example you taking up is more about being able to buy cosmetic items in general, most in-game items that some players are not accepting is for the sake of argument keeping to Monopoly is that you can buy a property/money/buildings at any time for real life money, witch is enchanting your own monopoly game but hindering others, then its not about the game itself but instead of how much RL cash you can afford to spend on the game to keep ahead.
but yea for the companies its usally an increase of cash for them and thats whats importants for a company. but still there is a conflict of intrests here.
well the example you taking up is more about being able to buy cosmetic items in general, most in-game items that some players are not accepting is for the sake of argument keeping to Monopoly is that you can buy a property/money/buildings at any time for real life money, witch is enchanting your own monopoly game but hindering others, then its not about the game itself but instead of how much RL cash you can afford to spend on the game to keep ahead.
but yea for the companies its usally an increase of cash for them and thats whats importants for a company. but still there is a conflict of intrests here.
But aren't we talking about cosmetic items? I don't know of any player who has ever championed the idea of buying higher end gear or things that make him/her more powerufl? Well, perhaps with the exception of f2p games but I've never actually seen one that offers gear. I'm sure some must.
But you know what? Maybe there are players who would just assume buy the most "uber" gear and just have at it. However, I've certainly never seen someone offer that counter-point on this forum.
As far as a conflict of interest, that is a tough one.
What is the conflict?
The company sees a market and they fill it. The players are part of that market and they benefit from the company's offerings.
If the company doesn't offer what some would consider good value for money then people won't buy.
Even if the company was to go overboard (my opinion) and offer high end gear for cash, there still isn't a conflict because if people purchase that gear then they are part of the demographic for the game. It does however alienate or drive away players who aren't part of that demographic.
Look, we all know that games have bots and gold sellers. Why? Because people are buying!
So even in your favorite game without a cash shop, if it is popular there is a secondary market because players are looking for that type of stuff.
So in the end, most games have a sort of cash shop. It just depends on whether it is sanctioned by the game company and presumably with the idea that it fits in with the concept of the game design or if it's some company trying to make money off of another company's effort.
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Comments
Knowing I stay away from games like WoW and EQ2 makes life so much easier, knowing I'm not being nickeled and dimed at every turn.
Our spirit was here long before you
Long before us
And long will it be after your pride brings you to your end
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time understanding the "being nickled and dimed" view of things. I guess it's because, at least so far, the item shops in the major p2p MMOs that have them, don't include any items that make one bit of difference in how good you are at the game. But also....how is a company "nickle and diming" anyone if they're not forced to buy any of these RMT items?
I have purchased items in a couple of games....WoW, Perfect World, and EQ2. BUT....I don't feel COMPELLED to do so. If I happen to see something I think would be fun or cute or w/e....I might get it IF I have the spare change to get it...or...I might not. I certainly don't feel "nickled and dimed" though, because none of that stuff is a necessity. It's kind of like....well....do you consider the grocery store "nickle and diming" you because of the candy and sodas that they have at the check out lane? I mean...the stuff is there....they WANT you to buy it as a last minute impulse purchase....but no one is twisting your arm.
I think maybe people with poor impulse control with their spending habits....might be more bothered by this kind of thing, maybe. I just don't even think about really. And I have yet to see anyone on Everfrost with one of these mounts. Most people already HAVE mounts that are quested or earned in other ways that are SO so so much better (they are faster and have more useful stats on them)......that this wouldn't even make them turn their head.
I'm sure I'll see some of these appear eventually, but...they don't seem terribly popular as of yet on Everfrost. Meh...guess time will tell.
/shrug
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
This microtransaction crap as gone too far.
Why should one who has to pay for base game, a monthly fee, adveture packs, expansion packs etc...have to pay for more crap?
nickel & dime you to death? Whoever started this trend should be smacked.
That's hilarious.
Backlash from Blizzard selling mounts for $25 so these guys are trying to get away with it just the same.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I think people are seeing the growing trend of developers removing content from the development cycle and trying to charge an additional fee for not doing any extra work. The loss is indirect and most don't recognize it. The developers who are tasked with making these items, the cash to item interfaces, the marketing, the decision process of what to sell, etc all come from time that is removed from the normal content development cycle.
After seeing adventure packs, premium websites, additional character slots, random loot card lottery, station exchange, stations cash, live gamer on top of all the character move, rename, transfer, haircut and whatever other tom foolery is bolted ontop of a game I can totally understand why people feel like they are being nickle and dimed to death. It seems every time a player turns around there is some new cash grab. Required or not it is seems to be constantly thrown into the players faces.
Sure only a few of the items right now affect gameplay directly, but things are heading that way and it doesn't take a lot to understand that those items will sell better than fluff items. The trend is pretty clear.
I know some will say "it isn't there yet, so stop complaining", but why should people wait until it is to late?
The core of the problem is that developers are giving less and less and expecting to be rewarded for it. They are effectively selling less than 100% of the game they sold the previous month and expect extra money in return for it. There is zero benefit for players in this type of system. Items are removed from the content cycle and held for ransom. It doesn't really matter what the content is or what company is doing it. It is a complete loss for the players and only benefits the company.
Yet people are rushing to defend this or tell people it isn't a big deal yet and nothing worth worrying about. Again nothing to worry about yet.
The entire industry is being groomed right now.
The answer to your question is really IN your question.... no one HAS to pay for any of this extra fluff stuff at ALL. The only person that can make you "HAVE to pay" is yourself. And EQ2 only had 2 adventure packs...Splitpaw and the DeMorte/Vampire thing, and both of those were years ago. I think the community raised a pretty big stink, they must not have sold all that well, and now...they haven't had any more in years.
I think any company has a right to try out new ways of making more income. Take PCGamer magazine. They have two different subscription prices (and maybe this is what MMOs should go to)....one that includes the demos disc, and one that doesn't. Perhaps MMOs should, instead of item shops, go to a multiple subscription model....one where you get everything except the item shop type fluff, and one that includes all the fluff but costs twice as much or something. I'm thinking though...that they probably make more money THIS way, because a lot of people actually LIKE having choices. Like maybe they don't want an effervescent wand that has an animation of blowing bubbles, but they DO want a stutffed blue frog that will sit in their house, or a mermaid scale looking neon blue cloak (ugh). I don't know....I'm just guessing here.
What I DO know...is that these big game houses like Blizzard and SoE....they PAY marketing people to determine what they should do. I'm sure a fair amount of research goes into it. For all the people that whine about it on these forums and elsewhere....they're still making millions from SOMEONE. So there ARE gamers out there that not only like these kinds of things, but spend money on them.
Myself...I like having any extra options in a game that a company wants to add. Do I always take advantage OF those options? No. But I like having them nonetheless. After all...it's entertainment. It's only a game. I don't go to a movie or football game and expect them to give me a free soda and popcorn or hotdogs, etc. There's the ticket price for the one kind of entertainment...and then there are fluff items that are not necessary for enjoying the movie, or ball game, or whatever, but they are things I might enjoy along with the regularly scheduled entertainment. Sometimes I buy a beer and hotdog...sometimes I don't. But I'd miss it if they took the hotdog option away.
I'm really not sure why game companies that make a product that can entertain us DAILY for 50 cents a day (you can't even buy a cup of coffee for that any more)....should be held to some restriction on the amount of money they can try to make in other ways outside of that measly 50 cents a day. And I'm sure someone will soon point out...."yes, but that have billions of dollars!!" Well sure they do. So what? Is there a limit on how much money a company can make? So far as I know...there's not. And I bet if we went back and read the ToS of all these games....they never promise to "all-inclusively" cover ever single possible "addition" to the product as is (when you buy it) with just your monthly fee alone.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Why do people have to pay extra to get a navigation package in a car? Do you have to have it? No. You pay extra because people want it and will pay for it.
EXACTLY. And you don't see people arguing that that should be included in EVERY car package. Oh sure...they might WISH it was...but if it was, I'm betting the price of cars would go up. Instead of raising the price, they give people the option of choosing additional perks that aren't necessary....first it was electric windows and seats and the sun/moon roof, now....it's GPS, OnStar (which also costs an additional monthly fee on top of costing more to add as an option at purchase), seats that heat up your butt when it's cold outside, and DVD players and screens. None of that stuff is necessary, but the options are nice.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Mounts are something that are typically created as part of the base game and monthly subscription content updates.
Navigation systems are not a standard part of a cars features and thus not an expected to be included in the base car purchase.
An analogy is fine as long as it doesn't misrepresent that true aspects of what is being discussed.
It stupifies me to hear people defend companies short selling customers as if everyone should just shut up and accept it.
These mounts suck compared to the one you can buy in game. Its only useful to new players but by the time they hit 50 they would need to replace their mount.
As an EQ2 player, I’m less than happy about this. Like previous poster stated before it creates two classes of player. One with enough disposable income to buy these extra goodies, and those who can’t. I have the feeling that it’s only a matter of time before they will be selling armour and swords and exp pots. I think it’s enough that I pay for my sub and expansions without paying for stuff on the marketplace, or feeling that I am missing out. Besides, one of the reasons I pay for a sub is to avoid the downside of F2P games which do have players that buy atk and df buffs and exp pots etc, giving them the edge in pvp etc. I can’t see the point in paying for a subscription if I have to pay other costs to stay competitive.
I don’t mind paying for digital content on single player games on the xbox marketplace since it largely doesn’t effect anyone. I don’t even mind paying for realm or name changes. But I draw the line on class and race change, and in game items. These things I think should be earned by playing the game, otherwise there is no difference between buying gold from gold farmers and buying from the marketplace. I’m seriously considering leaving EQ2 and when I do, it will be the last time I will give my cash to these digital whores.
And mounts are still in the games that have these. As a matter of fact, the REGULAR in game earned mounts are far BETTER than the purchased one.
And I never said anyone should shut up and accept it. To me it sounds more like YOU are saying that people that don't have an issue with it should shut up and let the people that want to complain do so without having to hear the other side of the argument.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Ahh but there IS a difference.....
Gold farmers are selling someone ELSE'S intellectual property and making a profit from it (against most EULAs). In game marketplaces are selling the company's OWN intellectual property. (And the argument that gold farmers are selling their own time and "work" to obtain the gold is moot, because it's still against the EULA, and they are trading a virtual representation of the company's intellectual property.)
And btw, I don't know how long you've been playing EQ2, but they've had xp pots you can buy on the marketplace for a long long time. They're not as good as the veteran reward ones, but they're not anything to sneeze at exactly.
Pots don't work in PvP...at least in EQ2.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Problem solvd then i guess. Since the mount is just a pretty fluff item and has zero effect on you. When SOE starts selling armor and weapons in store your complaint might be valid, but that will never happen.
Great post which touches on the most troubling aspect of the trend in mmo development and is in some ways creeping into console gaming as well. For the longest I've been mostly indifferent to the use of rmt's in games but far too often devs are starting to just ignore those of us who expect more than we got five years ago and cater to the rabid nature of the few who may survive a games lack of content/features.
Luckily for me I don't care for SOE and as such am not really effected by this but I did play STO and know the feeling associated with this lazy development tactic and am now after seeing another company with a game I consider to be lacking as close as I've ever been to crossing over and avoiding all of the companies who use rmt's to send a message.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Nice to see someone rushing to the defence of a giant multi-national. Using the illegality of gold selling as the only difference between selling gold and buying from a marketplace is a little thin.
From a players standpoint there in NO difference, regardless if your buing gold/Items from a goldseller or "imgame store", both are using RL money to enhance their avatar.
But the point here is what kind of enhancement? just pure cosmetic or the one which makes you better then other players .
Parent Post Posted by Getalife on 5/22/10 at 12:51:13 PM
true, would say that anything that enhances the performance of the player then.Well, as disgusting as large multi-national corporations can be, they...
Employ a ton of people which means jobs and services for a particular area.
They pay taxes though I'm sure they spend a great deal of time figuring out how to lessen that amount
They create products that many of us actually use such as movies, cars, stereo equipment, TV's, light bulbs, etc.
I bet most of your 401k or IRA or mutual fund investments have multi national corporations in the porfolio so you are benefitting from their success
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Sure, and I'm sure they do it out of the kindness of their hearts,and not out of enlightened self interest. Of course I can't talk since I work for IBM. However, this is largely irrelevant. It comes down to this; you either believe that a game should be fair and sporting in all aspects or you believe that a player should be able to use every opportunity or resource available, regardless of fairness so long as it is within the rules (or not).
I don't believe I ever said anything about "kindness of their hearts". Nor was it implied. I get that corporatoins are about making money.
And remember... you work for IBM. You accept their paycheck, you accept their benefits and presumably you will be there for a good long while? I know my uncle who worked for IBM was a lifer though things could have changed.
So point is, if people are going to start dissing large corporations in any real manner I sort of feel that they need to assess how those corporatioins fit into their lives. Otherwise you are biting the hand that feeds you. We all know that large corporations exist to make money for shareholders. But we are those shareholders. And in some cases, employees. So I don't go dissing large corporations but I do diss their actions when they do things that are not what I consider ethically correct. equating buying from gold sellers to buying from the game company seems to be off the mark.
As far as a game being fair and sporting you are correct but only in context.
It's sony's game. or in other cases blizzard's game, turbine's game, etc. If they deem that they want to add purchasable content that they feel doesn't imbalance game play then it's their game to change.
It's then consumer's decision whether or not partake if he/she sees that it is contrary to their ideas of what the game should be.
I realize some people will claim that buying anything in game goes against the idea of the game but I certainly don't agree.
If I'm playing monopoly and I purchase a higher end piece that looks sweet to use as my token (gold tokens) http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OEyiWlg4L._SL500_AA280_.jpg
Then that really doesn't affect the other players. I'll just look a bit pauncy.
I equate these items to the same thing. They really don't affect us in a direct way unless we want to just "be that guy". If I buy good looking cosmetic armor, other than your sensibiliities it doesn't alter game play at all exept it makes the game more enjoyable for me. Same with this mount. One can get better mounts in game if one wants to.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
well the example you taking up is more about being able to buy cosmetic items in general, most in-game items that some players are not accepting is for the sake of argument keeping to Monopoly is that you can buy a property/money/buildings at any time for real life money, witch is enchanting your own monopoly game but hindering others, then its not about the game itself but instead of how much RL cash you can afford to spend on the game to keep ahead.
but yea for the companies its usally an increase of cash for them and thats whats importants for a company. but still there is a conflict of intrests here.
Cosmetic or not...doesn't matter.
Game-breaking or not...doesn't matter.
I will NEVER subscribe to a Pay2Play game that has a cash shop.
But aren't we talking about cosmetic items? I don't know of any player who has ever championed the idea of buying higher end gear or things that make him/her more powerufl? Well, perhaps with the exception of f2p games but I've never actually seen one that offers gear. I'm sure some must.
But you know what? Maybe there are players who would just assume buy the most "uber" gear and just have at it. However, I've certainly never seen someone offer that counter-point on this forum.
As far as a conflict of interest, that is a tough one.
What is the conflict?
The company sees a market and they fill it. The players are part of that market and they benefit from the company's offerings.
If the company doesn't offer what some would consider good value for money then people won't buy.
Even if the company was to go overboard (my opinion) and offer high end gear for cash, there still isn't a conflict because if people purchase that gear then they are part of the demographic for the game. It does however alienate or drive away players who aren't part of that demographic.
Look, we all know that games have bots and gold sellers. Why? Because people are buying!
So even in your favorite game without a cash shop, if it is popular there is a secondary market because players are looking for that type of stuff.
So in the end, most games have a sort of cash shop. It just depends on whether it is sanctioned by the game company and presumably with the idea that it fits in with the concept of the game design or if it's some company trying to make money off of another company's effort.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo