Skillbased games work great for this also. On the first day that SWG launched, we had two 20 man parties in full newbie gear/weapons running around killing Krayt dragons and it was a friggin blast. When they changed from skillbased to levelbased, they removed this as a possibility and forced players to grind thru multiple levels just to achieve the same goal.
This.
This is (should be) the future of MMO gaming, not the past.
Sadly we wont see something like this for a very long time.
Money talks and right now Extremely linear, gear centric mmos are cash cow (or investors think they are).
hopefully they will wake up one day. I fear ill be old and back in diapers by then.
I don't think it is an issue of end game, rather the concept of leveling up is what causes people to want to level as fast as they can.
MMOs whether skill based or level based revolve around the concept of leveling up. Leveling is basically it and everything, the major determinate of success in a MMO, the key to new content, new items and new abilities. Leveling is the most powerful force in MMOs.
So if you are a competitive person you want to level faster than everbody else, if you can accumulate 20 extra skills or 2 more levels over your competition you have the edge. If you can get better gear you have the edge. Even if you are not playing PvP you may still want to be the first and the best. So being competitive there is a clear need to level and do it faster than everybody else, and when some people start leveling fast you have to do it faster, it makes the whole thing a big race.
Even if you are not competitive and you just want to play, you have to keep up with your friends and guildmates, so however fast they are leveling you have to match it because leveling creates barriers between people.
The only ways to keep this from happening is either prevent people from powerleveling like the OP idea or like Eve or make leveling not a big deal, where reaching skill cap or max level doesn't mean that much in terms of the advantages you have over others. When people can't outlevel each other as a means to best one another then they will find other means to compete.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
I think a lot of people will agree with me that the absurd race to endgame is a major problem in most MMOs. People expect to get through the game in just a few days or few weeks so they can get to raiding and "the real game can begin". Personally, I detest endgame, I never play it and any character I have that reaches max level immediately gets retired because I choose not to engage in any of it.
I was thinking about how to slow people down so they took their time playing the game instead of chewing through content as fast as possible. What if the game wouldn't allow you to progress faster than a level a day? In some games, like CoX, in order to go up a level, you have to go see a trainer, which I think is more realistic than just magically dinging in the middle of an adventure and suddenly getting all kinds of new skills in the middle of nowhere. If you use trainers then no matter how much experience you have, the trainers will refuse to train you more than a single level per calendar day. All of the XP you get will go into an auxiliary account, you can still grind for gold or gear, but that XP won't become available to you until 12:01 am the next morning.
Of course, this will give people more time to spend on socializing, crafting, PvP, etc. Even if you grinded enough XP on day one to max your character, you'd still have to wait weeks to actually get there so people won't spend all of their waking moments grinding like there's no tomorrow. They'll have lots of time to explore and see each level. In a game with 100 levels, nobody can reach endgame before 100 days, no matter what they do. Certainly you could play 10 characters every day and level each of them a level, giving you 10 endgame characters, but you're still going to be waiting that 100 days before any of them max out.
I'd play it, assuming the rest of the game was good. It would keep everyone equal, no matter how long you played, you could never be superior just because you put your butt in a chair and played 24/7.
So what do you think?
well, I suppose it's a bit artificial.
It's a game, everything is artificial.
I mean "why"?
What reason other than trying to slow people down is there?
I think Hyanmen has it right to a certain extent in that content needs to be made full and robust so that it's fun to stay at a certain level.
As far as making it take longer to cap, I'm all for this but look at what happens when you have a game that doesn't allow faster leveling is released. People keep calling Aion a grind game but it's not a grind game. It just takes longer to level than other games on the market.
Not having played Aion, I can only go by what I've read, but my understanding is that Aion just made it require more XP to get to the next level. Instead of, to use easy numbers, requiring 1000 XP, they require 10,000 XP. That just makes people grind more XP to do the same thing. Under my system, it's still 1000 XP, it just takes a day per level to ding. You can sit there and grind a million XP if it turns you on, but no matter what you do, it's still going to be a level a day, regardless.
So bascially what will happen is that people will not be getting to cap quickly and will start screaming.
Like people don't scream now? People will always scream. If they don't like it, they don't have to play.
My take is that this is ok provided that the game company is up front with the fact that one won't be able to rush to cap. Then let the players make their decision. But most game companies want money so they tend to be hesitant to be up front with such things.
In a recent poll here, 33% of those who participated aren't playing *ANY* MMO because they think all of the ones on the market suck. Lots of people are asking for better communities, slower progression, etc. There is likely a market for such a game, where the emphasis is on community and social interaction, not mindless progression.
You want to force people to play the way you like to play and that is just not possible. You can make a game that only allows your way but then people will not play.
No OP does not want to force people to play like he likes to play, he is asking for another game to make a system like that and like ALL games EVER made people have a choice to either play it or not. Always keep in mind the only person/thing forcing anything is ALWAYS the player him/herself.
Why is it that some people don't like options? OP is suggestion something as far I know not done yet, yet YOU might have enough choices to enjoy many games released the way YOU might enjoy them, OP shows he has not, reason why he suggested another system. Which is far from him wanting a game for players to play HIS way. But merly I suggestion to how a game could prevent the rush to cap lvl.
I wouldn't mind OP's idea in some new MMORPG, but it never bothered me that there are people that rush to cap lvl aswell pretending endgame is where it's at, though will agree it does hurt MMORPG in many way's as we see even developers are starting to "pretend" there is a "endgame" in a MMORPG, I say pretending as simply most MMORPG's have that journey yet from my own experiance many players simply arn't really into MMORPG but seem again in my opinion seeking for a multiplayer game but with more people then your regular multiplayer game cause lets face it most of this so-called endgame is what can be found in the most simple multiplayer game yet those regular multiplayer games often lack a fantasy setting, often are FPS and lack the amount of people we can/could have in a MMORPG.
I am still hoping to see more multiplayer games be created in a fantasy setting, perhaps even be more melee or 3rd person oriented, with more people playing on one server instead of the usual 16vs16 or 32vs32, I believe it will filter out allot of players currently in the rush to cap lvl scene moving to those type of games as they seem more intrested in the cap lvl "endgame" then be intrested in the whole game before they reach cap lvl, that way I feel MMORPG can again evolve into more instead of less with shinny graphics only.
I do like the idea of a massive "raid" of 20+ players that are all noobs being able to take on the same content that only a small group of veteran characters could do (maybe even solo) .
It's realistic.
You just don't have that in modern MMOs because of levels.
Horrible just horrible idea. Slowing people down on purpose is not gonna cut it. The simple word you're looking for is downtime it worked great in Everquest 1. It took me 6 or even 7 months in order get to max level and guess what? Every level has been a blast.
- add xp lost, corpse runs as a death penalty
- slow down the mana/health regen
- force grouping
- let people write their own story
- its about the challenge from the get go not just starting at the endgame
- no fast travel.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Horrible just horrible idea. Slowing people down on purpose is not gonna cut it. The simple word you're looking for is downtime it worked great in Everquest 1. It took me 6 or even 7 months in order get to max level and guess what? Every level has been a blast.
- add xp lost, corpse runs as a death penalty
- slow down the mana/health regen
- force grouping
- let people write their own story
- its about the challenge from the get go not just starting at the endgame
- no fast travel.
Yet some of your ideas simply slow people down on purpose. Not sure I'm seeing much of a difference.
Not that I'm against slowing people down necessarily, just not sure one mechanic over another is much better.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Can i do away with that forced grouping idea and trade it in for Incentives to group? like bonuses for playing together but still having the ability to log in at 4am drunk off my ass and solo when guildies arent online?
Im not that fun to be around when i have a couple six packs in me but I still wanna play.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Can i do away with that forced grouping idea and trade it in for Incentives to group? like bonuses for playing together but still having the ability to log in at 4am drunk off my ass and solo when guildies arent online?
Im not that fun to be around when i have a couple six packs in me but I still wanna play.
*puts hand down*
Yes.
And just for that, I'll even throw in a special hat.
All kidding aside the only way to remove the "rush" to endgame is to remove end game and just create... game...
Something that hasn't happened in many years...
And seriously, except for ONCE (SWG) it always comes with FFA PvP and stuff like full loot which is pretty much the #1 way to scare off the vast majority of players.
I think a skill-based (not level-based) game with decaying skills might be a solution. Don't use your skills often and they go down slightly.
Also, I think that scaling character power back quite a bit so that a character is always "mortal" in the world would help. A truly bad#%$$ fighter ought to be able to take on 3 or 4 ordinary foes, not be able to wipe an entire server's population of noobs. Just as in RL, the toughest guys are still susceptible to being mobbed by numbers. Make it so in the game.
While you can better your character and become formidable, you are always lesser than the world and there is always someone/something out there more formidable than you.
Can i do away with that forced grouping idea and trade it in for Incentives to group? like bonuses for playing together but still having the ability to log in at 4am drunk off my ass and solo when guildies arent online?
Im not that fun to be around when i have a couple six packs in me but I still wanna play.
*puts hand down*
Yes.
And just for that, I'll even throw in a special hat.
All kidding aside the only way to remove the "rush" to endgame is to remove end game and just create... game...
Something that hasn't happened in many years...
And seriously, except for ONCE (SWG) it always comes with FFA PvP and stuff like full loot which is pretty much the #1 way to scare off the vast majority of players.
Agreed, but to do away with endgame, you have to do away with levels, but even if you go to a wholly skill-based game, you're still essentially dealing with level mechanics, you have to have somewhere to get your skill points from and that's no different than levels really. Even if, like in EvE, it's matter of training, eventually you're going to max out your skills, no matter how many years it takes, and then what? You're in end-game!
The only way to really do away with end-game is to put no caps on anything, you keep raising your skills forever and ever and ever or you keep leveling for ever and ever and ever, or the game comes to an end and people stop playing. I doubt the former would appeal to very many people and the latter certainly wouldn't appeal to the developers.
I'm to tired to elaborate what I thinking, but something like this;
Break up the level system to one level and one skill system. The grind affect your skill xp, Quests your lvl xp.
To reach high-end-content you have to do quests gaining either levels or faction standing. To use weapons worth mention you need skills.
Explore the world and kill enemies to gain skills and you can use better gear.
Do quests to gain level/faction/fame whatever to unlock more challenging quests and areas.
Simplified:
Gear are skillbased and quests "lvlbased".
______________________________ The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess. And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic' and send them to the Special Olympus.
Can i do away with that forced grouping idea and trade it in for Incentives to group? like bonuses for playing together but still having the ability to log in at 4am drunk off my ass and solo when guildies arent online?
Im not that fun to be around when i have a couple six packs in me but I still wanna play.
*puts hand down*
Yes.
And just for that, I'll even throw in a special hat.
All kidding aside the only way to remove the "rush" to endgame is to remove end game and just create... game...
Something that hasn't happened in many years...
And seriously, except for ONCE (SWG) it always comes with FFA PvP and stuff like full loot which is pretty much the #1 way to scare off the vast majority of players.
Agreed, but to do away with endgame, you have to do away with levels, but even if you go to a wholly skill-based game, you're still essentially dealing with level mechanics, you have to have somewhere to get your skill points from and that's no different than levels really. Even if, like in EvE, it's matter of training, eventually you're going to max out your skills, no matter how many years it takes, and then what? You're in end-game!
The only way to really do away with end-game is to put no caps on anything, you keep raising your skills forever and ever and ever or you keep leveling for ever and ever and ever, or the game comes to an end and people stop playing. I doubt the former would appeal to very many people and the latter certainly wouldn't appeal to the developers.
Is that really endgame though? A person in Eve thats capped (hasent happened yet) will still have access to all content and tools that he/she had access to on day 1.
Is it an Endgame if you experience it on your first day?
Can i do away with that forced grouping idea and trade it in for Incentives to group? like bonuses for playing together but still having the ability to log in at 4am drunk off my ass and solo when guildies arent online?
Im not that fun to be around when i have a couple six packs in me but I still wanna play.
*puts hand down*
Yes.
And just for that, I'll even throw in a special hat.
All kidding aside the only way to remove the "rush" to endgame is to remove end game and just create... game...
Something that hasn't happened in many years...
And seriously, except for ONCE (SWG) it always comes with FFA PvP and stuff like full loot which is pretty much the #1 way to scare off the vast majority of players.
Agreed, but to do away with endgame, you have to do away with levels, but even if you go to a wholly skill-based game, you're still essentially dealing with level mechanics, you have to have somewhere to get your skill points from and that's no different than levels really. Even if, like in EvE, it's matter of training, eventually you're going to max out your skills, no matter how many years it takes, and then what? You're in end-game!
The only way to really do away with end-game is to put no caps on anything, you keep raising your skills forever and ever and ever or you keep leveling for ever and ever and ever, or the game comes to an end and people stop playing. I doubt the former would appeal to very many people and the latter certainly wouldn't appeal to the developers.
Is that really endgame though? A person in Eve thats capped (hasent happened yet) will still have access to all content and tools that he/she had access to on day 1.
Is it an Endgame if you experience it on your first day?
Yeah, that's the key point. Obtaining new skills has nothing to do with reaching EVE's end game. I've only got 55M or so SP's, and I've been in 'end-game' since day 1 and I'm just as engaged in the endgame as a person who has 100M SP's.
In EVE there is simply key activities such as wealth acquisition, and a variety of tools (mining, mission running crafting etc) to help you acquire it. But what you do with such wealth is whats important. Do you reinvest and try to build industrial powerhouses, become a master market trader and corner the market? Or decided to forge a star empire and take over all of free space. These activities don't require an "end-game" level of skills, only a small subset which you then employ for the rest of your career in EVE.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think a lot of people will agree with me that the absurd race to endgame is a major problem in most MMOs. People expect to get through the game in just a few days or few weeks so they can get to raiding and "the real game can begin".
I think the reason for this stems from the fact that very few MMO's have group content until the 'end game' anymore. It's all quest based run throughs. After doing the same quests alone a few times all you really want to do is rush through it so you can start grouping up with your friends again. Any game that uses a time based level cap is going to have a lot of drop outs as friends become distanced from each other. Bob played while Jenny was on holiday? Well now Jenny can't group up with Bob because they're ten levels apart. Bob would have to stop playing to let Jenny catch up but Bob just renewed his subscription and doesn't want to waste a third of it.
I was thinking about how to slow people down so they took their time playing the game instead of chewing through content as fast as possible. What if the game wouldn't allow you to progress faster than a level a day?
Also with this idea, it can come across as very artificial. I suppose it is really. But what I mean is, I used to play Eve, until I realised I had no control over the advancement of my character. I was originally piloting frigates and wanted to move to interceptors, but the amount of time that would take was beyond belief. I was bored in my frigate, I had very little to do except fly the same repetitive missions, so I would have had to sit out for well over a month just to get the skills to switch ships. So I was basically paying every month to click a skill training button.
That just felt like an artificial way of giving the company more cash for no reason. It's why I quit.
I think a skill-based (not level-based) game with decaying skills might be a solution. Don't use your skills often and they go down slightly.
Also, I think that scaling character power back quite a bit so that a character is always "mortal" in the world would help. A truly bad#%$$ fighter ought to be able to take on 3 or 4 ordinary foes, not be able to wipe an entire server's population of noobs. Just as in RL, the toughest guys are still susceptible to being mobbed by numbers. Make it so in the game.
While you can better your character and become formidable, you are always lesser than the world and there is always someone/something out there more formidable than you.
I've seen a game advertising the whole "decaying skill" thing. Xysom I thought it was.. Not sure, have to re-read through the list.. Sounds interesting, regardless of how that game fares, I definitely want to keep an eye on it to see how the skill system plays out live.
Minus the decaying skills though, it seems ALOT of the points people make in here as to what they would like to see apply to EVE in it's current state, which makes me wonder a little.. I'll call this the EVE Phenominon...
We ask for tons of stuff from new games, and crucify them for missing the mark on sometimes the slightest things.. Yet here we have a game that is a good 6-7 years old now, seems to fit the bill for alot of people here (feature wise on a high level), yet quite a few don't play it.. and those who don't seem as adimate about their position as those who do, even though they seek the same things from MMO's...
Is it the fact that you are (currently) bound to a ship (this being eve specific)? Is it the anxiety associated with entering a matured sandbox game as a noob and possibly never being able to "catch up to vets" (this being sandbox general)?? It can't be the economy as it is entirely and purely player driven, unless that is one of those features that people like to ask for because they like stroking their epeen on a forum, but don't actually like to play because in reality it hampers their enjoyment of the game.. I find it amazing how many people claim to want a player driven economy, then continue, sometimes in the same post, to complain about the lack of loot drops from mobs.. Kinda like people who cry for an FFA/Full Loot game, then cry when they get killed an lose all their stuff in said game.
They are honest questions, and could really apply to just about any sandbox type MMO.. I just use EVE as an example.
Because we can ask devs to create these games for us all day long, but until we address the 'EVE Phenominon', don't expect anything to come from larger companies, it's simply too risky an investment.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
You want to force people to play the way you like to play and that is just not possible. You can make a game that only allows your way but then people will not play.
No OP does not want to force people to play like he likes to play, he is asking for another game to make a system like that and like ALL games EVER made people have a choice to either play it or not. Always keep in mind the only person/thing forcing anything is ALWAYS the player him/herself.
Why is it that some people don't like options? OP is suggestion something as far I know not done yet, yet YOU might have enough choices to enjoy many games released the way YOU might enjoy them, OP shows he has not, reason why he suggested another system. Which is far from him wanting a game for players to play HIS way. But merly I suggestion to how a game could prevent the rush to cap lvl.
I wouldn't mind OP's idea in some new MMORPG, but it never bothered me that there are people that rush to cap lvl aswell pretending endgame is where it's at, though will agree it does hurt MMORPG in many way's as we see even developers are starting to "pretend" there is a "endgame" in a MMORPG, I say pretending as simply most MMORPG's have that journey yet from my own experiance many players simply arn't really into MMORPG but seem again in my opinion seeking for a multiplayer game but with more people then your regular multiplayer game cause lets face it most of this so-called endgame is what can be found in the most simple multiplayer game yet those regular multiplayer games often lack a fantasy setting, often are FPS and lack the amount of people we can/could have in a MMORPG.
I am still hoping to see more multiplayer games be created in a fantasy setting, perhaps even be more melee or 3rd person oriented, with more people playing on one server instead of the usual 16vs16 or 32vs32, I believe it will filter out allot of players currently in the rush to cap lvl scene moving to those type of games as they seem more intrested in the cap lvl "endgame" then be intrested in the whole game before they reach cap lvl, that way I feel MMORPG can again evolve into more instead of less with shinny graphics only.
QFT
I hope that Diablo 3 will somehow expand on there multiplayer options, so that these people have something to keep them busy at least for a little while.
That said...
I think what we need is a skill base PVE sandbox with horizontal progression:
Unlucking > new zones, spells, skills, etc.
Expanding your ressources > house, guild hall, wealth, gears, crafting
Interaction > Alliances ( to take down truely mighty beast), creation of kingdoms, owning piece of land on which you can create your own stuff( terraforming, dungeon building, etc).
I totally agree with the NO FFA PVP!! You could have consentual kingdom vs kingdom warfare I guess, but even that I'm not too hot about, but I know that it could spice things up for some people so why not.
Edit: I just want to add that sandbox doesn't prevent the inclusion multiple epic story lines & quests. Imo, it should be done in a FFXI kinda way. Some gears, unlocking new stuff, expanding on the lore, etc. No kill the rats quests thats for sure.
No EVE real time trainning please... thats retarded for a MMORPG imo. ( I know some people wont be happy about this last comment. :P )
Can i do away with that forced grouping idea and trade it in for Incentives to group? like bonuses for playing together but still having the ability to log in at 4am drunk off my ass and solo when guildies arent online?
Im not that fun to be around when i have a couple six packs in me but I still wanna play.
*puts hand down*
Yes.
And just for that, I'll even throw in a special hat.
All kidding aside the only way to remove the "rush" to endgame is to remove end game and just create... game...
Something that hasn't happened in many years...
And seriously, except for ONCE (SWG) it always comes with FFA PvP and stuff like full loot which is pretty much the #1 way to scare off the vast majority of players.
Agreed, but to do away with endgame, you have to do away with levels, but even if you go to a wholly skill-based game, you're still essentially dealing with level mechanics, you have to have somewhere to get your skill points from and that's no different than levels really. Even if, like in EvE, it's matter of training, eventually you're going to max out your skills, no matter how many years it takes, and then what? You're in end-game!
The only way to really do away with end-game is to put no caps on anything, you keep raising your skills forever and ever and ever or you keep leveling for ever and ever and ever, or the game comes to an end and people stop playing. I doubt the former would appeal to very many people and the latter certainly wouldn't appeal to the developers.
Endgame I think has nothing to do with levels and everything to do with gameplay mechanics. Endgame I think is when there are no new mechanics being introduced to the player.
If you had a game that was nothing but random dungeons and level cap was at 1,000 and took 10 years to reach, endgame in this example does not start 10 years down the road but right out of the gate. With the exception of different dungeon variations you have experienced all the mechanics the game has, ie dungeon crawling. All durring those 10 years it takes to level you will not be doing anything significantly different than what you were before.
Usually games stick so really interesting mechanic towards level cap so people feel the need to get there as quick as they can.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
the reason i grind my way to end game as fast as possible is because there isn't much to do before then. on most games it's hard to find enough people to actually do a pre-endgame dungeon. i can't PvP because 9 times out of 10 i'll get destroyed by someone higher the me. so what is there to do other then lvl up?
Use a Skil based system or a system like eve does but take away the numbers. Don't let people see in a number vaule what theuir skills are. They have no way of knowing what to grind or how high they can get it. They just get to play till they have the skills to use a better weapon or whatnot.
Take away the number crunching aspect and make it where people have no clue where the cap is.
And maybe some of the public building aspects from Horizons to build bridges and clear tunnels and such before parts of the gameworld are opened up.
Use a Skil based system or a system like eve does but take away the numbers. Don't let people see in a number vaule what theuir skills are. They have no way of knowing what to grind or how high they can get it. They just get to play till they have the skills to use a better weapon or whatnot.
Take away the number crunching aspect and make it where people have no clue where the cap is.
How would a person know if they could use a new weapon?
That would drive me nuts I would purposely use a lazer skill over and over like a moron with the hopes of leveling a skill.
A game like that would be the first one I bot in lol.
Comments
Sadly we wont see something like this for a very long time.
Money talks and right now Extremely linear, gear centric mmos are cash cow (or investors think they are).
hopefully they will wake up one day. I fear ill be old and back in diapers by then.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I don't think it is an issue of end game, rather the concept of leveling up is what causes people to want to level as fast as they can.
MMOs whether skill based or level based revolve around the concept of leveling up. Leveling is basically it and everything, the major determinate of success in a MMO, the key to new content, new items and new abilities. Leveling is the most powerful force in MMOs.
So if you are a competitive person you want to level faster than everbody else, if you can accumulate 20 extra skills or 2 more levels over your competition you have the edge. If you can get better gear you have the edge. Even if you are not playing PvP you may still want to be the first and the best. So being competitive there is a clear need to level and do it faster than everybody else, and when some people start leveling fast you have to do it faster, it makes the whole thing a big race.
Even if you are not competitive and you just want to play, you have to keep up with your friends and guildmates, so however fast they are leveling you have to match it because leveling creates barriers between people.
The only ways to keep this from happening is either prevent people from powerleveling like the OP idea or like Eve or make leveling not a big deal, where reaching skill cap or max level doesn't mean that much in terms of the advantages you have over others. When people can't outlevel each other as a means to best one another then they will find other means to compete.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
No OP does not want to force people to play like he likes to play, he is asking for another game to make a system like that and like ALL games EVER made people have a choice to either play it or not. Always keep in mind the only person/thing forcing anything is ALWAYS the player him/herself.
Why is it that some people don't like options? OP is suggestion something as far I know not done yet, yet YOU might have enough choices to enjoy many games released the way YOU might enjoy them, OP shows he has not, reason why he suggested another system. Which is far from him wanting a game for players to play HIS way. But merly I suggestion to how a game could prevent the rush to cap lvl.
I wouldn't mind OP's idea in some new MMORPG, but it never bothered me that there are people that rush to cap lvl aswell pretending endgame is where it's at, though will agree it does hurt MMORPG in many way's as we see even developers are starting to "pretend" there is a "endgame" in a MMORPG, I say pretending as simply most MMORPG's have that journey yet from my own experiance many players simply arn't really into MMORPG but seem again in my opinion seeking for a multiplayer game but with more people then your regular multiplayer game cause lets face it most of this so-called endgame is what can be found in the most simple multiplayer game yet those regular multiplayer games often lack a fantasy setting, often are FPS and lack the amount of people we can/could have in a MMORPG.
I am still hoping to see more multiplayer games be created in a fantasy setting, perhaps even be more melee or 3rd person oriented, with more people playing on one server instead of the usual 16vs16 or 32vs32, I believe it will filter out allot of players currently in the rush to cap lvl scene moving to those type of games as they seem more intrested in the cap lvl "endgame" then be intrested in the whole game before they reach cap lvl, that way I feel MMORPG can again evolve into more instead of less with shinny graphics only.
I do like the idea of a massive "raid" of 20+ players that are all noobs being able to take on the same content that only a small group of veteran characters could do (maybe even solo) .
It's realistic.
You just don't have that in modern MMOs because of levels.
Horrible just horrible idea. Slowing people down on purpose is not gonna cut it. The simple word you're looking for is downtime it worked great in Everquest 1. It took me 6 or even 7 months in order get to max level and guess what? Every level has been a blast.
- add xp lost, corpse runs as a death penalty
- slow down the mana/health regen
- force grouping
- let people write their own story
- its about the challenge from the get go not just starting at the endgame
- no fast travel.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Yet some of your ideas simply slow people down on purpose. Not sure I'm seeing much of a difference.
Not that I'm against slowing people down necessarily, just not sure one mechanic over another is much better.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"Horrible just horrible idea. "
JINX!
*Raises Hand*
Can i do away with that forced grouping idea and trade it in for Incentives to group? like bonuses for playing together but still having the ability to log in at 4am drunk off my ass and solo when guildies arent online?
Im not that fun to be around when i have a couple six packs in me but I still wanna play.
*puts hand down*
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
ROFL
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yes.
And just for that, I'll even throw in a special hat.
All kidding aside the only way to remove the "rush" to endgame is to remove end game and just create... game...
Something that hasn't happened in many years...
And seriously, except for ONCE (SWG) it always comes with FFA PvP and stuff like full loot which is pretty much the #1 way to scare off the vast majority of players.
I think a skill-based (not level-based) game with decaying skills might be a solution. Don't use your skills often and they go down slightly.
Also, I think that scaling character power back quite a bit so that a character is always "mortal" in the world would help. A truly bad#%$$ fighter ought to be able to take on 3 or 4 ordinary foes, not be able to wipe an entire server's population of noobs. Just as in RL, the toughest guys are still susceptible to being mobbed by numbers. Make it so in the game.
While you can better your character and become formidable, you are always lesser than the world and there is always someone/something out there more formidable than you.
Agreed, but to do away with endgame, you have to do away with levels, but even if you go to a wholly skill-based game, you're still essentially dealing with level mechanics, you have to have somewhere to get your skill points from and that's no different than levels really. Even if, like in EvE, it's matter of training, eventually you're going to max out your skills, no matter how many years it takes, and then what? You're in end-game!
The only way to really do away with end-game is to put no caps on anything, you keep raising your skills forever and ever and ever or you keep leveling for ever and ever and ever, or the game comes to an end and people stop playing. I doubt the former would appeal to very many people and the latter certainly wouldn't appeal to the developers.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I'm to tired to elaborate what I thinking, but something like this;
Break up the level system to one level and one skill system. The grind affect your skill xp, Quests your lvl xp.
To reach high-end-content you have to do quests gaining either levels or faction standing. To use weapons worth mention you need skills.
Explore the world and kill enemies to gain skills and you can use better gear.
Do quests to gain level/faction/fame whatever to unlock more challenging quests and areas.
Simplified:
Gear are skillbased and quests "lvlbased".
______________________________
The Sceptics, yes they're special but we've need them to.. I guess.
And if they're put more effort MMORPG.com can create a 'Team Sceptic'
and send them to the Special Olympus.
Is that really endgame though? A person in Eve thats capped (hasent happened yet) will still have access to all content and tools that he/she had access to on day 1.
Is it an Endgame if you experience it on your first day?
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Someone like me would have a problem with this because I would feel forced to get quests done.
If I know anything from my 12+ years of mmo playing is if I feel forced to do something at all i lose interest.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Yeah, that's the key point. Obtaining new skills has nothing to do with reaching EVE's end game. I've only got 55M or so SP's, and I've been in 'end-game' since day 1 and I'm just as engaged in the endgame as a person who has 100M SP's.
In EVE there is simply key activities such as wealth acquisition, and a variety of tools (mining, mission running crafting etc) to help you acquire it. But what you do with such wealth is whats important. Do you reinvest and try to build industrial powerhouses, become a master market trader and corner the market? Or decided to forge a star empire and take over all of free space. These activities don't require an "end-game" level of skills, only a small subset which you then employ for the rest of your career in EVE.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think a lot of people will agree with me that the absurd race to endgame is a major problem in most MMOs. People expect to get through the game in just a few days or few weeks so they can get to raiding and "the real game can begin".
I think the reason for this stems from the fact that very few MMO's have group content until the 'end game' anymore. It's all quest based run throughs. After doing the same quests alone a few times all you really want to do is rush through it so you can start grouping up with your friends again. Any game that uses a time based level cap is going to have a lot of drop outs as friends become distanced from each other. Bob played while Jenny was on holiday? Well now Jenny can't group up with Bob because they're ten levels apart. Bob would have to stop playing to let Jenny catch up but Bob just renewed his subscription and doesn't want to waste a third of it.
I was thinking about how to slow people down so they took their time playing the game instead of chewing through content as fast as possible. What if the game wouldn't allow you to progress faster than a level a day?
Also with this idea, it can come across as very artificial. I suppose it is really. But what I mean is, I used to play Eve, until I realised I had no control over the advancement of my character. I was originally piloting frigates and wanted to move to interceptors, but the amount of time that would take was beyond belief. I was bored in my frigate, I had very little to do except fly the same repetitive missions, so I would have had to sit out for well over a month just to get the skills to switch ships. So I was basically paying every month to click a skill training button.
That just felt like an artificial way of giving the company more cash for no reason. It's why I quit.
I've seen a game advertising the whole "decaying skill" thing. Xysom I thought it was.. Not sure, have to re-read through the list.. Sounds interesting, regardless of how that game fares, I definitely want to keep an eye on it to see how the skill system plays out live.
Minus the decaying skills though, it seems ALOT of the points people make in here as to what they would like to see apply to EVE in it's current state, which makes me wonder a little.. I'll call this the EVE Phenominon...
We ask for tons of stuff from new games, and crucify them for missing the mark on sometimes the slightest things.. Yet here we have a game that is a good 6-7 years old now, seems to fit the bill for alot of people here (feature wise on a high level), yet quite a few don't play it.. and those who don't seem as adimate about their position as those who do, even though they seek the same things from MMO's...
Is it the fact that you are (currently) bound to a ship (this being eve specific)? Is it the anxiety associated with entering a matured sandbox game as a noob and possibly never being able to "catch up to vets" (this being sandbox general)?? It can't be the economy as it is entirely and purely player driven, unless that is one of those features that people like to ask for because they like stroking their epeen on a forum, but don't actually like to play because in reality it hampers their enjoyment of the game.. I find it amazing how many people claim to want a player driven economy, then continue, sometimes in the same post, to complain about the lack of loot drops from mobs.. Kinda like people who cry for an FFA/Full Loot game, then cry when they get killed an lose all their stuff in said game.
They are honest questions, and could really apply to just about any sandbox type MMO.. I just use EVE as an example.
Because we can ask devs to create these games for us all day long, but until we address the 'EVE Phenominon', don't expect anything to come from larger companies, it's simply too risky an investment.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
QFT
I hope that Diablo 3 will somehow expand on there multiplayer options, so that these people have something to keep them busy at least for a little while.
That said...
I think what we need is a skill base PVE sandbox with horizontal progression:
Unlucking > new zones, spells, skills, etc.
Expanding your ressources > house, guild hall, wealth, gears, crafting
Interaction > Alliances ( to take down truely mighty beast), creation of kingdoms, owning piece of land on which you can create your own stuff( terraforming, dungeon building, etc).
I totally agree with the NO FFA PVP!! You could have consentual kingdom vs kingdom warfare I guess, but even that I'm not too hot about, but I know that it could spice things up for some people so why not.
Edit: I just want to add that sandbox doesn't prevent the inclusion multiple epic story lines & quests. Imo, it should be done in a FFXI kinda way. Some gears, unlocking new stuff, expanding on the lore, etc. No kill the rats quests thats for sure.
No EVE real time trainning please... thats retarded for a MMORPG imo. ( I know some people wont be happy about this last comment. :P )
Endgame I think has nothing to do with levels and everything to do with gameplay mechanics. Endgame I think is when there are no new mechanics being introduced to the player.
If you had a game that was nothing but random dungeons and level cap was at 1,000 and took 10 years to reach, endgame in this example does not start 10 years down the road but right out of the gate. With the exception of different dungeon variations you have experienced all the mechanics the game has, ie dungeon crawling. All durring those 10 years it takes to level you will not be doing anything significantly different than what you were before.
Usually games stick so really interesting mechanic towards level cap so people feel the need to get there as quick as they can.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
the reason i grind my way to end game as fast as possible is because there isn't much to do before then. on most games it's hard to find enough people to actually do a pre-endgame dungeon. i can't PvP because 9 times out of 10 i'll get destroyed by someone higher the me. so what is there to do other then lvl up?
Use a Skil based system or a system like eve does but take away the numbers. Don't let people see in a number vaule what theuir skills are. They have no way of knowing what to grind or how high they can get it. They just get to play till they have the skills to use a better weapon or whatnot.
Take away the number crunching aspect and make it where people have no clue where the cap is.
And maybe some of the public building aspects from Horizons to build bridges and clear tunnels and such before parts of the gameworld are opened up.
How would a person know if they could use a new weapon?
That would drive me nuts I would purposely use a lazer skill over and over like a moron with the hopes of leveling a skill.
A game like that would be the first one I bot in lol.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP