Use a Skil based system or a system like eve does but take away the numbers. Don't let people see in a number vaule what theuir skills are. They have no way of knowing what to grind or how high they can get it. They just get to play till they have the skills to use a better weapon or whatnot.
Take away the number crunching aspect and make it where people have no clue where the cap is.
And maybe some of the public building aspects from Horizons to build bridges and clear tunnels and such before parts of the gameworld are opened up.
FFXI had a similar system with hidden stats. You have no idea what your accuracy, crit, or haste cap is. Of course all this did was have people test out every ability, skill, and spell until a chart was made. The majority of info we have today is from the players and not the devs or game mechanics. If you can parse your damage, you can figure out hidden values eventually. This goes for levels also, although it would be tougher. You have people that like number crunching more than playing endgame.
I've always been the type of player to be more concerned with standing out of a crowd than racing to join them. I'd rather stand above, than be lost in the sea. I also enjoy the content at all levels, and found that games actually stagnate at endgame, especially when there is only one "dungeon" considered to be the highest progression, because eventually that will be the entirety of your gaming experience, that ONE dungeon over and over and over, which breaks from the rest of progression that is typically full of choices, some games more than others.
I think to better encourage people to do less "grinding to endgame" and more "enjoying the ride" you need to break out of the concept of "player levels". Player Levels works well for single player games, however it only seeks to further divide the community in a game intended to be social.
The problem is finding suitable alternatives, Darkfall tried with a skill based system but due to the rate of skill acquisition and huge variance in ability between players who were new vs. players who had been playing 6+ months, it was often even worse than level based games, instead of making the skills a generalized thing you acquire as a cumulative level, you had to raise each individually. Skill systems aren't exactly a bad idea I think but perhaps they could have been implemented a lot better. The original idea is nonetheless really good that you can enjoy the full game right off the bat, but in practice it simply didn't work.
It's hard to really think of another alternative to Skill or Level based progression, there's gear based, but that usually is complimentary and if limited solely to that you lose the diversity of progression rather than enhance it. To do away with skills and levels is practically like saying "We aren't going to be an RPG". The only other alternative I've seen is "checkpoint based progression" which is common in games like God of War or Legend of Zelda where you acquire new skills and items at specific points in the narrative, as opposed to grinding for them. These games offer the instant gratification, but aren't considered true RPGs, and lack the customization, as well as the entire point for even bothering to kill monsters in the first place.
So you have 2 distinct problems with making an MMO that doesn't make people want to "rush to endgame". The first being lack of early epic content, sure some games make it seem like this (With games like WAR having you do scripted events early on that seem big, but a few levels later are "beneath you to take part in" simply because the rewards are antiquated. The other problem is a lack of a good model for progression that doesn't make it seem like "you have to max out everything to be good or competitive", pretty much it's the rule of numbers in any kind of game, if you have a number you can effect in a game, someone somewhere will feel the point is to get the 'high score' and neglect all other aspects of the game. Ultimately we can try many ways to change games but we have to eventually face the truth that if you try too hard to change something, you won't force those players to adapt, they just won't play.
Though personally I would like to see a MMORPG that isn't completely obsessed solely with it's own endgame.
. When I log on to WoW, I can't get xps so I don't worry about it. . I wonder what I'm going to do that day. I check the guild calendar to see if there are any raids. I might do some pvp. . If someone needs help, I help them out. . Or I might level up fishing. . There are a few daily quests. I might do them. . Lately I've been running through vanilla WoW quests. . I can go anywhere. Travel is not restricted. . Complete sandbox.
When I log on to WoW, I can't get xps so I don't worry about it.
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I wonder what I'm going to do that day. I check the guild calendar to see if there are any raids. I might do some pvp.
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If someone needs help, I help them out.
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Or I might level up fishing.
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There are a few daily quests. I might do them.
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Lately I've been running through vanilla WoW quests.
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I can go anywhere. Travel is not restricted.
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Complete sandbox.
While it is true, WOW contains many sandbox type features, you're missing a few key ones that typically are identified with sandbox type games.
1) No classes, no levels.
2) As such, character progression normally can never end, though some games do put a cap on it and add skill decay.
3) Ability to take posession of in game territory and defend it against all comers ( I know, there's Wintergrasp, but not the same thing)
4) Ability to physically add things to the game world, such as housing, fortresses, stations etc that might even remain in game permanently.
5) Generally its possible to pursue one career or activity to the total exclusion of all others. i.e. you can be a crafter and never worry about reaching a certain "level" before being able to craft a particular item, all you need is the skill points.
6) Players determine the story, quests are pretty much just filler. (if they even exist).
7) You don't need to get to level "XX" to experience the end game, you are always in it, from the moment you first start playing.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran 1) No classes, no levels.
Once you're done with the tutorial levels, everyone is the same level, 80. It no longer fits into the equation. Everyone is a twink at 80 for example.
2) As such, character progression normally can never end, though some games do put a cap on it and add skill decay.
Progression never ends in any game, you level up a stat, rating, skill. You get a better ship or sword. You make more money, get better at crafting, etc. All games have progression.
3) Ability to take posession of in game territory and defend it against all comers ( I know, there's Wintergrasp, but not the same thing)
In WoW people take ground and hold it all the time. The only limit is that they have to log off eventually. Wintergrasp is a whole zone.
4) Ability to physically add things to the game world, such as housing, fortresses, stations etc that might even remain in game permanently.
This is but only if you don't roleplay.
5) Generally its possible to pursue one career or activity to the total exclusion of all others. i.e. you can be a crafter and never worry about reaching a certain "level" before being able to craft a particular item, all you need is the skill points.
For some reason in wow, a level 1 can't level up blacksmithing to level 80. I'm not sure why.
6) Players determine the story, quests are pretty much just filler. (if they even exist).
This is true in WoW at level 80. Level 80 is where the game starts. The only real reason to do quests is to get a little spending cash. Roleplay is where the story is developed.
7) You don't need to get to level "XX" to experience the end game, you are always in it, from the moment you first start playing.
Even Eve has a tutorial. Levels 1-79 in WoW teach you how to play.
Once you're done with the tutorial levels, everyone is the same level, 80. It no longer fits into the equation. Everyone is a twink at 80 for example.
2) As such, character progression normally can never end, though some games do put a cap on it and add skill decay.
Progression never ends in any game, you level up a stat, rating, skill. You get a better ship or sword. You make more money, get better at crafting, etc. All games have progression.
3) Ability to take posession of in game territory and defend it against all comers ( I know, there's Wintergrasp, but not the same thing)
In WoW people take ground and hold it all the time. The only limit is that they have to log off eventually. Wintergrasp is a whole zone.
4) Ability to physically add things to the game world, such as housing, fortresses, stations etc that might even remain in game permanently.
This is but only if you don't roleplay.
5) Generally its possible to pursue one career or activity to the total exclusion of all others. i.e. you can be a crafter and never worry about reaching a certain "level" before being able to craft a particular item, all you need is the skill points.
For some reason in wow, a level 1 can't level up blacksmithing to level 80. I'm not sure why.
6) Players determine the story, quests are pretty much just filler. (if they even exist).
This is true in WoW at level 80. Level 80 is where the game starts. The only real reason to do quests is to get a little spending cash. Roleplay is where the story is developed.
7) You don't need to get to level "XX" to experience the end game, you are always in it, from the moment you first start playing.
Even Eve has a tutorial. Levels 1-79 in WoW teach you how to play.
I would like to see leveling slowed down, but in a different way. I hate how you start most of these games and can reach level 20 the first day. Then, towards the end it is a long boring grind to reach max level. What if it took just as long to go from level 1 to 2 as it takes from 49 to 50, etc. I'd like to start a game where it takes a few days to reach level 5, instead of just blasting through noob zones.
The 1 level per day thing would be okay with me, but I think a lot of people would object to it. It would force you to spend time on crafting/collecting, which some players would not care about.
I also don't like the "no level" concept because there is always some substitute system that achieves the same end, but is just more confusing and lame.
I think people need to learn to appreciate the grind. When its so easy to reach max level that everyone does it in a month it really lessens the accomplishment. I'm part of the crowd that loses interest in a character once it reaches max level. Ideally I'd like to see L2, just without the bots, and with some sort of deed/trait system to give you more options. As long as I'm wishing, how about a decent crafting system? Then there would be no shortage of content.
I think a lot of people will agree with me that the absurd race to endgame is a major problem in most MMOs. People expect to get through the game in just a few days or few weeks so they can get to raiding and "the real game can begin". Personally, I detest endgame, I never play it and any character I have that reaches max level immediately gets retired because I choose not to engage in any of it.
I was thinking about how to slow people down so they took their time playing the game instead of chewing through content as fast as possible. What if the game wouldn't allow you to progress faster than a level a day?
Sorry, but this is just.... wrong o.O also it is kinda stupid, as you act just like the people you are talking about - you throw away half of the game (cap content in your case - do you think devs did not spend enough time on it? do you really believe that they are making it for 1337 kiddies all over the world?) I find the "I detest endgame" approach even more stupid than the "I detest leveling" one, because in the former case you are really missing half of the content, while in the latter you still are experiencing it, even if just for a short time (everyone has to level through low-end content to get to cap, ok?).
If you find leveling is the essence of your gaming, go for it, but don't try to abuse people who are not the same type of gamer as you are... I for one like leveling and exploring very much too, so I play LotRO, easy as that. Just pick the right game for you.
BTW, people play for different reasons - but it always simplifies down to FUN. The question is - if someone's way to achieve his dose of fun differs from yours, does it make him a bad player? A cap-rushing kid? Wannabe elite?
OT: It's quite irritating how this approach to solving problems occurs more and more often in people's heads. Some politicians say exactly the same - hey, if we don't like something, let's just make a law that makes it illegal (=impossible to achieve). I just don't like this totalitary way of thinking our "modern" society is propagating more and more
Just make a game that is fun and interesting straight from the beginning. Why have raids only at endgame? If you keep people entertained from the start and don't bore them to death with a solofest quest grind then maybe, just maybe people won't race to max and wouln't mind it taking a year to get to max level.
I know I sure wouldn't mind it taking a year to get to max as long as there was plenty of fun things and events going on. IMO the greatest part of MMO's is leveling. Getting that new ability or spell and getting stronger as well as getting new gear is nice. End game all you can do is just get better gear, the more character progression the better I always say.
With level based systems it's impossible for "raids" of low to mid level players to band together and take on challenges far too dangerous for them to take on solo because all level based games end up having +/- "hit" modifiers and resistances etc. so you can't even do a peck of damage to higher level mobs.
You "could" have low/mid level raiding and other mass-group activities in a skill based system in combination with more of a enemy danger con system.
The higher skill veteran could maybe solo or small group the same mobs that an entire raid of low skill noobs could take on.
With level based systems it's impossible for "raids" of low to mid level players to band together and take on challenges far too dangerous for them to take on solo because all level based games end up having +/- "hit" modifiers and resistances etc. so you can't even do a peck of damage to higher level mobs.
You "could" have low/mid level raiding and other mass-group activities in a skill based system in combination with more of a enemy danger con system.
The higher skill veteran could maybe solo or small group the same mobs that an entire raid of low skill noobs could take on.
As it should be.
No artificial barriers for content!
Why would that be impossible? If the cap in your game is let's say 50, your end-game raid bosses will be like 52-55 or something. Why can't a lvl30 raid have lvl32 bosses? Of course, a veteran lvl50 player can probably solo this thing, but that would be the same as in the skill system you suggested...
The main drawback of no-end-game raids is IMO in their durability - they are probably getting outleveled before the group even finishes them - is it's a real raid that can take even several months to be beaten. Can't see anyone staying on mid-level for a month just to complete one dungeon. And even if players like this exist, their number probably won't be that high to pay for the extreme effort the dev team needs to put into a well-designed and fun raid.
The main drawback of no-end-game raids is IMO in their durability - they are probably getting outleveled before the group even finishes them - is it's a real raid that can take even several months to be beaten. Can't see anyone staying on mid-level for a month just to complete one dungeon. And even if players like this exist, their number probably won't be that high to pay for the extreme effort the dev team needs to put into a well-designed and fun raid.
Exactly.
So instead you have enemies and locations where a low to mid level/skill player will need an entire raid of friends to kill, where as a higher level/skill player will be able to solo or only need a few to kill.
Then you have mobs more challenging still that require raids full of high level/skilled players.
Then you could theoretically raid your entire MMO career in this game, and you wouldn't be "wasting" or "out leveling" the low/mid level "raid" content.
It's all about splitting the loot or whatever between a raid full of lowbies or a few/solo veterans and the reward to progression ratio.
For example 1 gold is a lot of money to a newbie but nothing to a vet.
Though this really only works in an open world environment where you are just killing mobs.
Instanced raids.. well... as you said all the time/money spent creating these supposedly "balanced" progression content is wasted if you can out level it.
This is why I hate and I mean REALLY hate when MMOs come out with expansions that raise the level cap. It makes old content obsolete and useless and as such becomes unvisited.
I mean imagine a WoW where the level cap was never raised above 60. Outland and Northrend with all their dungeons and zones and loots (adjusted to 60 levels) all that CONTENT...
Sorry to disagree with many of the post here.. but making the journey a timesink isn't the answer.. IMO.. There just shouldn't be an END GAME.. period.. Why is there a start and finish? If Devs would spend more brain cells making the game more sandbox, that would eliminate most of your problems. Why not design a mmo to be more like a character's career, then some easy peezy arcade loot chase?
This entire direction that MMOs are going these days is nothing more then an extended version of a console game you could play on your Xbox.. IMO.. a mmo should be a living evolving RPG..
Originally posted by heerobya With level based systems it's impossible for "raids" of low to mid level players to band together and take on challenges far too dangerous for them to take on solo because all level based games end up having +/- "hit" modifiers and resistances etc.
For such to occur, more horizontal progression is needed. The main focus of which, is to allow players to participate meaningfully in 'endgame' from a lower level. The benefit of advancement would be more in regards to giving players more options and utility, rather than simply sheer, raw power.
What also influences this is just what type of endgame you're going with.
Raiding tends to be a much less forgiving and rigid design that encourages min/maxing to the highest degree. An alternative where a community of players work together to construct and defend a town however, allows for more opportunity for lower level players to contribute without having their participation made trivial.
With level based systems it's impossible for "raids" of low to mid level players to band together and take on challenges far too dangerous for them to take on solo because all level based games end up having +/- "hit" modifiers and resistances etc.
There is absolutely no meaningful benefit to banding together in a raid of level 1 characters to kill hogger. Sure it might be good for a laugh once, but doing so does not accomplish anything noteworthy within the game. Hogger was not designed to be a raid boss, he drops no noteworthy loot, and serves as nothing more than a regular quest objective that is completely solable at low levels.
Originally posted by Ceridith Originally posted by uquipu
Originally posted by heerobya With level based systems it's impossible for "raids" of low to mid level players to band together and take on challenges far too dangerous for them to take on solo because all level based games end up having +/- "hit" modifiers and resistances etc.
. Totally false. . 40 level 1 gnomes go on Hogger raid . read the comments Actually it's completely true. There is absolutely no meaningful benefit to banding together in a raid of level 1 characters to kill hogger. Sure it might be good for a laugh once, but doing so does not accomplish anything noteworthy within the game. Hogger was not designed to be a raid boss, he drops no noteworthy loot, and serves as nothing more than a regular quest objective that is completely solable at low levels. .
Mmmmmm, why does there have to be a benefit? Sandbox is all about doing things for fun and not for benefit. . The pursuit of epics is not a good reason to play . You should play to hang out with friend and have fun.
With level based systems it's impossible for "raids" of low to mid level players to band together and take on challenges far too dangerous for them to take on solo because all level based games end up having +/- "hit" modifiers and resistances etc.
There is absolutely no meaningful benefit to banding together in a raid of level 1 characters to kill hogger. Sure it might be good for a laugh once, but doing so does not accomplish anything noteworthy within the game. Hogger was not designed to be a raid boss, he drops no noteworthy loot, and serves as nothing more than a regular quest objective that is completely solable at low levels.
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Mmmmmm, why does there have to be a benefit? Sandbox is all about doing things for fun and not for benefit.
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The pursuit of epics is not a good reason to play
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You should play to hang out with friend and have fun.
No, I'll disagree. In fact, you normally do things with other players to your mutual benefit, otherwise you end up soloing.
I belong to a wormhole corp, not because we're great friends, but because my ship skills coupled with others permit us to hunt class 6 sleepers efficiently and make lots of ISK.
Sure, they're nice enough guys, but when/if the time comes that the relationship is no longer beneficial, (or my interests change) I have no problem changing corps and finding a different group to work with.
I don't play online games to make friends (on occassion I do make a few), I play them for my own enjoyment and associate with players who can help me achieve my main goals.
But wait, this thread is about solving the problem of racing to the end game.
Trick is to make all the content fun from day 1, and not just a 1-79 level 'tutorial" as you have suggested.
Also, the content you do on day 1 should still be relevant 80 levels later, but then again, lets get rid of levels and we're part way there on solving the issue.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
With level based systems it's impossible for "raids" of low to mid level players to band together and take on challenges far too dangerous for them to take on solo because all level based games end up having +/- "hit" modifiers and resistances etc.
There is absolutely no meaningful benefit to banding together in a raid of level 1 characters to kill hogger. Sure it might be good for a laugh once, but doing so does not accomplish anything noteworthy within the game. Hogger was not designed to be a raid boss, he drops no noteworthy loot, and serves as nothing more than a regular quest objective that is completely solable at low levels.
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Mmmmmm, why does there have to be a benefit? Sandbox is all about doing things for fun and not for benefit.
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The pursuit of epics is not a good reason to play
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You should play to hang out with friend and have fun.
Even though it's context may be different, you are still rewarded for meanigful gameplay in a sandbox MMO. It may be through resources, making an impact in the gameworld, rare trophy items, etc, but you still get something. In fact, most of the original sandbox MMOs still had rare loot that was rewarded to players who difficult kills which required groups.
The pursuit of epics is not good to have as "the" reason to play, but it is "a" reason to play. Character progression, be it through levels, skills, equipment, wealth, etc, is one of the main driving points of an MMO. Whether it be a themepark, or a sandbox, progression tends to be a fairly prevelant mechanic. In part of such, accomplishing difficult and/or time consuming tasks in either an themepark or sandbox MMO, tends to also carry a greater reward within the game mechanics.
There has to be some tangible value from accomplishments within the game, otherwise there is no reason to repeat a particular task more than once, which results in player burnout significantly more quickly.
No, I'll disagree. In fact, you normally do things with other players to your mutual benefit, otherwise you end up soloing.
Trick is to make all the content fun from day 1, and not just a 1-79 level 'tutorial" as you have suggested.
Also, the content you do on day 1 should still be relevant 80 levels later, but then again, lets get rid of levels and we're part way there on solving the issue.
I agree.
Removing artificial barriers to access to content (levels) is a good first step, but how do you make EVERYTHING in a game from day one character creation fun?
You really can't because "fun" is an extremely subjective term. Fun is different.
I think the real key is creating variety, and within that context make sure content is engaging.
What I mean by that is to make content that is immersive and well balanced and requires you to actively participate and make decisions.
How do you do that?
Well, it's all about making content that has an impact on you and on the world, making content dynamic.
Killing mobs that will just respawn in a few minutes is not dynamic. Doing quests with objectives that are not unique to your character means that others will have the same quests with the same objectives... These things do NOT a dynamic experience make.
Automatic content generation through missions or whatever is NOT a dynamic experience.
So what do you do?
Answer that question, you've just revolutionized the MMORPG experience.
Originally posted by heerobya With level based systems it's impossible for "raids" of low to mid level players to band together and take on challenges far too dangerous for them to take on solo because all level based games end up having +/- "hit" modifiers and resistances etc.
Actually it's completely true. There is absolutely no meaningful benefit to banding together in a raid of level 1 characters to kill hogger. Sure it might be good for a laugh once, but doing so does not accomplish anything noteworthy within the game. Hogger was not designed to be a raid boss, he drops no noteworthy loot, and serves as nothing more than a regular quest objective that is completely solable at low levels.
. Mmmmmm, why does there have to be a benefit? Sandbox is all about doing things for fun and not for benefit. . The pursuit of epics is not a good reason to play . You should play to hang out with friend and have fun.
No, I'll disagree. In fact, you normally do things with other players to your mutual benefit, otherwise you end up soloing. I belong to a wormhole corp, not because we're great friends, but because my ship skills coupled with others permit us to hunt class 6 sleepers efficiently and make lots of ISK. Sure, they're nice enough guys, but when/if the time comes that the relationship is no longer beneficial, (or my interests change) I have no problem changing corps and finding a different group to work with. I don't play online games to make friends (on occassion I do make a few), I play them for my own enjoyment and associate with players who can help me achieve my main goals. But wait, this thread is about solving the problem of racing to the end game. Trick is to make all the content fun from day 1, and not just a 1-79 level 'tutorial" as you have suggested. Also, the content you do on day 1 should still be relevant 80 levels later, but then again, lets get rid of levels and we're part way there on solving the issue.
. But the content is fun. . After people have leveled up 10 alts to 80, I can see it getting old. But anything gets old after a while. . How about a compromise. You level up a toon from 1 to 80, after that, you can roll a new toon and start at 80 without leveling. . WoW already has something similar. You can start with a new 80 level toon without leveling, but you can only play in arenas. Lots like this option.
I found leveling quite fun the first time through. I have hated leveling alts since.
I used to find raiding fun, but now it's far too focused on GearScore and using the right mods and memorizing dance steps and calculating everything on spreadsheets and it's lost all the fun of simply being "large group content" that rewarded players who paid attention.
I've never really found PvP in MMOs all that fun because it is always so imbalanced and so many flavor of the month classes and skill specs and professions (SWG really ruined that for me) or it's level based and you'll never win against a higher level and so gear based...
What is fun now?
Community. Playing with others, having a good time.
Progression. Advancing a character.
Exploration and story. I put the two together as I think the are very intertwined.
Comments
Endgame is the only game.
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Levels 1-79 are just tutorial levels.
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WoW is a sandbox game.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
FFXI had a similar system with hidden stats. You have no idea what your accuracy, crit, or haste cap is. Of course all this did was have people test out every ability, skill, and spell until a chart was made. The majority of info we have today is from the players and not the devs or game mechanics. If you can parse your damage, you can figure out hidden values eventually. This goes for levels also, although it would be tougher. You have people that like number crunching more than playing endgame.
I've always been the type of player to be more concerned with standing out of a crowd than racing to join them. I'd rather stand above, than be lost in the sea. I also enjoy the content at all levels, and found that games actually stagnate at endgame, especially when there is only one "dungeon" considered to be the highest progression, because eventually that will be the entirety of your gaming experience, that ONE dungeon over and over and over, which breaks from the rest of progression that is typically full of choices, some games more than others.
I think to better encourage people to do less "grinding to endgame" and more "enjoying the ride" you need to break out of the concept of "player levels". Player Levels works well for single player games, however it only seeks to further divide the community in a game intended to be social.
The problem is finding suitable alternatives, Darkfall tried with a skill based system but due to the rate of skill acquisition and huge variance in ability between players who were new vs. players who had been playing 6+ months, it was often even worse than level based games, instead of making the skills a generalized thing you acquire as a cumulative level, you had to raise each individually. Skill systems aren't exactly a bad idea I think but perhaps they could have been implemented a lot better. The original idea is nonetheless really good that you can enjoy the full game right off the bat, but in practice it simply didn't work.
It's hard to really think of another alternative to Skill or Level based progression, there's gear based, but that usually is complimentary and if limited solely to that you lose the diversity of progression rather than enhance it. To do away with skills and levels is practically like saying "We aren't going to be an RPG". The only other alternative I've seen is "checkpoint based progression" which is common in games like God of War or Legend of Zelda where you acquire new skills and items at specific points in the narrative, as opposed to grinding for them. These games offer the instant gratification, but aren't considered true RPGs, and lack the customization, as well as the entire point for even bothering to kill monsters in the first place.
So you have 2 distinct problems with making an MMO that doesn't make people want to "rush to endgame". The first being lack of early epic content, sure some games make it seem like this (With games like WAR having you do scripted events early on that seem big, but a few levels later are "beneath you to take part in" simply because the rewards are antiquated. The other problem is a lack of a good model for progression that doesn't make it seem like "you have to max out everything to be good or competitive", pretty much it's the rule of numbers in any kind of game, if you have a number you can effect in a game, someone somewhere will feel the point is to get the 'high score' and neglect all other aspects of the game. Ultimately we can try many ways to change games but we have to eventually face the truth that if you try too hard to change something, you won't force those players to adapt, they just won't play.
Though personally I would like to see a MMORPG that isn't completely obsessed solely with it's own endgame.
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When I log on to WoW, I can't get xps so I don't worry about it.
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I wonder what I'm going to do that day. I check the guild calendar to see if there are any raids. I might do some pvp.
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If someone needs help, I help them out.
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Or I might level up fishing.
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There are a few daily quests. I might do them.
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Lately I've been running through vanilla WoW quests.
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I can go anywhere. Travel is not restricted.
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Complete sandbox.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
EvE - end game problem solved.
Are those the 3 myths of mmorps?
While it is true, WOW contains many sandbox type features, you're missing a few key ones that typically are identified with sandbox type games.
1) No classes, no levels.
2) As such, character progression normally can never end, though some games do put a cap on it and add skill decay.
3) Ability to take posession of in game territory and defend it against all comers ( I know, there's Wintergrasp, but not the same thing)
4) Ability to physically add things to the game world, such as housing, fortresses, stations etc that might even remain in game permanently.
5) Generally its possible to pursue one career or activity to the total exclusion of all others. i.e. you can be a crafter and never worry about reaching a certain "level" before being able to craft a particular item, all you need is the skill points.
6) Players determine the story, quests are pretty much just filler. (if they even exist).
7) You don't need to get to level "XX" to experience the end game, you are always in it, from the moment you first start playing.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran
1) No classes, no levels.
Once you're done with the tutorial levels, everyone is the same level, 80. It no longer fits into the equation. Everyone is a twink at 80 for example.
2) As such, character progression normally can never end, though some games do put a cap on it and add skill decay.
Progression never ends in any game, you level up a stat, rating, skill. You get a better ship or sword. You make more money, get better at crafting, etc. All games have progression.
3) Ability to take posession of in game territory and defend it against all comers ( I know, there's Wintergrasp, but not the same thing)
In WoW people take ground and hold it all the time. The only limit is that they have to log off eventually. Wintergrasp is a whole zone.
4) Ability to physically add things to the game world, such as housing, fortresses, stations etc that might even remain in game permanently.
This is but only if you don't roleplay.
5) Generally its possible to pursue one career or activity to the total exclusion of all others. i.e. you can be a crafter and never worry about reaching a certain "level" before being able to craft a particular item, all you need is the skill points.
For some reason in wow, a level 1 can't level up blacksmithing to level 80. I'm not sure why.
6) Players determine the story, quests are pretty much just filler. (if they even exist).
This is true in WoW at level 80. Level 80 is where the game starts. The only real reason to do quests is to get a little spending cash. Roleplay is where the story is developed.
7) You don't need to get to level "XX" to experience the end game, you are always in it, from the moment you first start playing.
Even Eve has a tutorial. Levels 1-79 in WoW teach you how to play.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
What you explain is not limited to WoW...
I would like to see leveling slowed down, but in a different way. I hate how you start most of these games and can reach level 20 the first day. Then, towards the end it is a long boring grind to reach max level. What if it took just as long to go from level 1 to 2 as it takes from 49 to 50, etc. I'd like to start a game where it takes a few days to reach level 5, instead of just blasting through noob zones.
The 1 level per day thing would be okay with me, but I think a lot of people would object to it. It would force you to spend time on crafting/collecting, which some players would not care about.
I also don't like the "no level" concept because there is always some substitute system that achieves the same end, but is just more confusing and lame.
I think people need to learn to appreciate the grind. When its so easy to reach max level that everyone does it in a month it really lessens the accomplishment. I'm part of the crowd that loses interest in a character once it reaches max level. Ideally I'd like to see L2, just without the bots, and with some sort of deed/trait system to give you more options. As long as I'm wishing, how about a decent crafting system? Then there would be no shortage of content.
Sorry, but this is just.... wrong o.O also it is kinda stupid, as you act just like the people you are talking about - you throw away half of the game (cap content in your case - do you think devs did not spend enough time on it? do you really believe that they are making it for 1337 kiddies all over the world?) I find the "I detest endgame" approach even more stupid than the "I detest leveling" one, because in the former case you are really missing half of the content, while in the latter you still are experiencing it, even if just for a short time (everyone has to level through low-end content to get to cap, ok?).
If you find leveling is the essence of your gaming, go for it, but don't try to abuse people who are not the same type of gamer as you are... I for one like leveling and exploring very much too, so I play LotRO, easy as that. Just pick the right game for you.
BTW, people play for different reasons - but it always simplifies down to FUN. The question is - if someone's way to achieve his dose of fun differs from yours, does it make him a bad player? A cap-rushing kid? Wannabe elite?
OT: It's quite irritating how this approach to solving problems occurs more and more often in people's heads. Some politicians say exactly the same - hey, if we don't like something, let's just make a law that makes it illegal (=impossible to achieve). I just don't like this totalitary way of thinking our "modern" society is propagating more and more
Srry for my english...
peace,
phoboss
Just make a game that is fun and interesting straight from the beginning. Why have raids only at endgame? If you keep people entertained from the start and don't bore them to death with a solofest quest grind then maybe, just maybe people won't race to max and wouln't mind it taking a year to get to max level.
I know I sure wouldn't mind it taking a year to get to max as long as there was plenty of fun things and events going on. IMO the greatest part of MMO's is leveling. Getting that new ability or spell and getting stronger as well as getting new gear is nice. End game all you can do is just get better gear, the more character progression the better I always say.
With level based systems it's impossible for "raids" of low to mid level players to band together and take on challenges far too dangerous for them to take on solo because all level based games end up having +/- "hit" modifiers and resistances etc. so you can't even do a peck of damage to higher level mobs.
You "could" have low/mid level raiding and other mass-group activities in a skill based system in combination with more of a enemy danger con system.
The higher skill veteran could maybe solo or small group the same mobs that an entire raid of low skill noobs could take on.
As it should be.
No artificial barriers for content!
Why would that be impossible? If the cap in your game is let's say 50, your end-game raid bosses will be like 52-55 or something. Why can't a lvl30 raid have lvl32 bosses? Of course, a veteran lvl50 player can probably solo this thing, but that would be the same as in the skill system you suggested...
The main drawback of no-end-game raids is IMO in their durability - they are probably getting outleveled before the group even finishes them - is it's a real raid that can take even several months to be beaten. Can't see anyone staying on mid-level for a month just to complete one dungeon. And even if players like this exist, their number probably won't be that high to pay for the extreme effort the dev team needs to put into a well-designed and fun raid.
Exactly.
So instead you have enemies and locations where a low to mid level/skill player will need an entire raid of friends to kill, where as a higher level/skill player will be able to solo or only need a few to kill.
Then you have mobs more challenging still that require raids full of high level/skilled players.
Then you could theoretically raid your entire MMO career in this game, and you wouldn't be "wasting" or "out leveling" the low/mid level "raid" content.
It's all about splitting the loot or whatever between a raid full of lowbies or a few/solo veterans and the reward to progression ratio.
For example 1 gold is a lot of money to a newbie but nothing to a vet.
Though this really only works in an open world environment where you are just killing mobs.
Instanced raids.. well... as you said all the time/money spent creating these supposedly "balanced" progression content is wasted if you can out level it.
This is why I hate and I mean REALLY hate when MMOs come out with expansions that raise the level cap. It makes old content obsolete and useless and as such becomes unvisited.
I mean imagine a WoW where the level cap was never raised above 60. Outland and Northrend with all their dungeons and zones and loots (adjusted to 60 levels) all that CONTENT...
Horizontal progression for the win.
Sorry to disagree with many of the post here.. but making the journey a timesink isn't the answer.. IMO.. There just shouldn't be an END GAME.. period.. Why is there a start and finish? If Devs would spend more brain cells making the game more sandbox, that would eliminate most of your problems. Why not design a mmo to be more like a character's career, then some easy peezy arcade loot chase?
This entire direction that MMOs are going these days is nothing more then an extended version of a console game you could play on your Xbox.. IMO.. a mmo should be a living evolving RPG..
Totally false.
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40 level 1 gnomes go on Hogger raid
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read the comments
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
For such to occur, more horizontal progression is needed. The main focus of which, is to allow players to participate meaningfully in 'endgame' from a lower level. The benefit of advancement would be more in regards to giving players more options and utility, rather than simply sheer, raw power.
What also influences this is just what type of endgame you're going with.
Raiding tends to be a much less forgiving and rigid design that encourages min/maxing to the highest degree. An alternative where a community of players work together to construct and defend a town however, allows for more opportunity for lower level players to contribute without having their participation made trivial.
Actually it's completely true.
There is absolutely no meaningful benefit to banding together in a raid of level 1 characters to kill hogger. Sure it might be good for a laugh once, but doing so does not accomplish anything noteworthy within the game. Hogger was not designed to be a raid boss, he drops no noteworthy loot, and serves as nothing more than a regular quest objective that is completely solable at low levels.
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Totally false.
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40 level 1 gnomes go on Hogger raid
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read the comments
Actually it's completely true.
There is absolutely no meaningful benefit to banding together in a raid of level 1 characters to kill hogger. Sure it might be good for a laugh once, but doing so does not accomplish anything noteworthy within the game. Hogger was not designed to be a raid boss, he drops no noteworthy loot, and serves as nothing more than a regular quest objective that is completely solable at low levels.
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Mmmmmm, why does there have to be a benefit? Sandbox is all about doing things for fun and not for benefit.
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The pursuit of epics is not a good reason to play
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You should play to hang out with friend and have fun.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
No, I'll disagree. In fact, you normally do things with other players to your mutual benefit, otherwise you end up soloing.
I belong to a wormhole corp, not because we're great friends, but because my ship skills coupled with others permit us to hunt class 6 sleepers efficiently and make lots of ISK.
Sure, they're nice enough guys, but when/if the time comes that the relationship is no longer beneficial, (or my interests change) I have no problem changing corps and finding a different group to work with.
I don't play online games to make friends (on occassion I do make a few), I play them for my own enjoyment and associate with players who can help me achieve my main goals.
But wait, this thread is about solving the problem of racing to the end game.
Trick is to make all the content fun from day 1, and not just a 1-79 level 'tutorial" as you have suggested.
Also, the content you do on day 1 should still be relevant 80 levels later, but then again, lets get rid of levels and we're part way there on solving the issue.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Even though it's context may be different, you are still rewarded for meanigful gameplay in a sandbox MMO. It may be through resources, making an impact in the gameworld, rare trophy items, etc, but you still get something. In fact, most of the original sandbox MMOs still had rare loot that was rewarded to players who difficult kills which required groups.
The pursuit of epics is not good to have as "the" reason to play, but it is "a" reason to play. Character progression, be it through levels, skills, equipment, wealth, etc, is one of the main driving points of an MMO. Whether it be a themepark, or a sandbox, progression tends to be a fairly prevelant mechanic. In part of such, accomplishing difficult and/or time consuming tasks in either an themepark or sandbox MMO, tends to also carry a greater reward within the game mechanics.
There has to be some tangible value from accomplishments within the game, otherwise there is no reason to repeat a particular task more than once, which results in player burnout significantly more quickly.
I agree.
Removing artificial barriers to access to content (levels) is a good first step, but how do you make EVERYTHING in a game from day one character creation fun?
You really can't because "fun" is an extremely subjective term. Fun is different.
I think the real key is creating variety, and within that context make sure content is engaging.
What I mean by that is to make content that is immersive and well balanced and requires you to actively participate and make decisions.
How do you do that?
Well, it's all about making content that has an impact on you and on the world, making content dynamic.
Killing mobs that will just respawn in a few minutes is not dynamic. Doing quests with objectives that are not unique to your character means that others will have the same quests with the same objectives... These things do NOT a dynamic experience make.
Automatic content generation through missions or whatever is NOT a dynamic experience.
So what do you do?
Answer that question, you've just revolutionized the MMORPG experience.
But the content is fun.
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After people have leveled up 10 alts to 80, I can see it getting old. But anything gets old after a while.
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How about a compromise. You level up a toon from 1 to 80, after that, you can roll a new toon and start at 80 without leveling.
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WoW already has something similar. You can start with a new 80 level toon without leveling, but you can only play in arenas. Lots like this option.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Subjective.
I found leveling quite fun the first time through. I have hated leveling alts since.
I used to find raiding fun, but now it's far too focused on GearScore and using the right mods and memorizing dance steps and calculating everything on spreadsheets and it's lost all the fun of simply being "large group content" that rewarded players who paid attention.
I've never really found PvP in MMOs all that fun because it is always so imbalanced and so many flavor of the month classes and skill specs and professions (SWG really ruined that for me) or it's level based and you'll never win against a higher level and so gear based...
What is fun now?
Community. Playing with others, having a good time.
Progression. Advancing a character.
Exploration and story. I put the two together as I think the are very intertwined.