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Why does every MMO have a group-only endgame?
SwampRob
Member UncommonPosts: 1,003
First off: I'm not trying to start yet another solo vs group debate, we have enough of those.
I'm looking for reasons as to why every, and I mean every MMO has an endgame that requires grouping? Whether you're a grouper or a soloer or something in-between, it's undeniable that MMOs are much more solo-friendly today than they used to be. And yet, the endgame is essentially unchanged. Sure, we have raids of varying sizes, but all meaningful endgame content, stuff that allows you to get the best gear in the game, requires a group.
Is this the only way it can be? It is the only way it should be? Why?
Comments
Because WoW has it.
EVE does not make obtaining gear an end game objective therefore it does not suffer from that issue. (In fact, end game starts from day one but that's another thread topic)
In EVE there's plenty for people to solo, and some folks do so for years w/o an issue. But there's no denying that arguably some of the best content has to be done with a corporation.
So you ask why eh? Because these are MMORPG's and were always meant to be played by people willing to work together to achieve some common, in game objective.
Solo players are "accomodated" to a ridiculous level these days IMO, however I doubt there's many Development teams out there that don't cringe every time they have to cater to that demographic.
Its sort of like CCP, they don't mind taking carebear player's money, so they put in plenty for them to do, but if they had their druthers everyone would be battling it out in 0.0 space and empire wouldn't even exist.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Because its a MMO. Not a single player game. You should have to work with other people to get better gear. That's what MMO's are all about. For single player End Game just play Mass Effect or one of the other countless RPGs out there. I think there should be a mechanic to force people to play together at the end. Otherwise what's the point of even playing a MMO?
As Kyle said, too much is in-game for soloers already.
That aside, if anyone has ideas about what would provide an end game for solo play, I would be interested to read them.
About EvE - I can't see any purpose in that game as it is. Other than making money endlessly.
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AoC has a solo endgame, but it's fairly brief. In EQ and EQ2 you can do a lot solo at endgame (depending on your class). Technically WoW does too, since certain classes can solo some parts of the 10 and 25 man raids now. It seems you want the solo endgame to contain the best gear available in the game, which frankly doesn't make sense, but some F2P games offer this (I believe you can get the best gear available solo endgame in Atlantica Online for instance). It's kind of hard to balance solo play to be challenging (and thus appropiately rewarding) when you have (typically) a variety of classes some which solo far better than others.
Not only because of the balance issues that would come up, you'd also have to balance the rewards too. Solo play is easier to do (doesn't require time to form a balanced group) and doesn't require coordination and relying on your team members, thus the rewards should either take significantly longer to obtain or be worse than the group content. To further make the problem worse, if you kill a boss solo you get those rewards instanteously, when you kill him in a group you still have to compete for group members for the drop, so the rewards would be dished out far faster through solo play, unless you use some sort of token system or make the boss have a percentage chance at dropping something (which would again cause problems, as people don't like killing an epic boss and getting nothing for it). If the end game gear was obtainable through solo play then players will have even less incentive to group, which is generally considered a problem with today's MMOs (they feel less like a MMO and more and more like a single player game).
What a WOW answer. MMORPG's should be more than obtaining gear. Playing with others should never be forced but encourged. Last time i looked MMO meant Massive multiplayer Online not Massive Group Online.
well since most of your replies in this thread are by folks that think WoW started mmo's, allow me to try and answer it for you.
Its because of the "mm" part of the "mmo" You may not like it, but truth is, its a "Massively Multiplayer" game. Thus, to accomplish this, they kinda need to focus on the things that require "massive multiplayers" Dont get me wrong, I am not anti solo players, or small groups (small groups is about all I do, never been on a raid in any game) but I understand the whole point of an mmo.
And for you young folks out there who believe that Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginining there was WoW" allow me to help you out. The game that started the current genre of mmo's was EQ1, and that was created from the foundation created by UO.
Enjoy
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And the one everyone mimics is WoW, which mimic'd EQ, but that isn't relevant.
What he said.
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Well we could have a discussion about that, but not in this thread, would be way off topic.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All of these games have "end-game" for solo or duo, players just have to use their imagination instead of having it spoonfed to you. For example, once you are 80, you could try to solo Molten Core. That would be end-game challenging for a solo or duo. Just because you don't get the cutting edge rewards, doesn't mean it's not "end-game." The shallowness of some players is saddening.
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And last time i looked i was replying to his statement about how "Endgame content requiers groups to get gear". Which my statement was based upon. And i DO AGREE with you that MMO's should be more than just obtaining gear, but his statement wasnt about those features. It was simply about group end game content for gear.
Disinformation.
.
In WoW, many at max level don't raid. Raiding at even the entry level requires effort and many don't want to expend the effort.
.
These people pvp. Or they hang out and chat, help guildies, yes there are plenty of guilds who have level 80s who never raid. Some roleplay. Some do the many daily quests.
.
Etc.
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It is because "Endgame" in its most common forms (raiding, city building, pvp sieges, etc.) is meant to be the a greater challenge than the rest of the game. And by design, anything that can be made challenging for a single person, can be made MORE challenging for multiple people.
Whereas solo parts of the game require one to push their character to the limit and to be the best they can be, group parts of the game require the player to know everything not only about their character, but about all other characters and to push not only themselves, but them as well.
The more pieces need to interact, the more complex a machine becomes.
Also, there is only so much content that can be pre-built or pre-programmed. One monster fought by one player is 1 fight. 6 monsters being fought by 6 players is as many possibilities as there are classy combinations, specs and playstyles. So from a design standpoint it is also a way to give more content.
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Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I'll make it simple :
MMORPG = massively multiplayer online roleplaying game.
multiplayer =/= party playing.
It means playing in the same environement as other players.
It does not mean that you have to INTERACT with other players.
It simply means other players are in the game.
I like MMORPG. I liked, in wow, going on my hunter, rogue, shaman or wathever and beasting some hardass rare mob.
I liked going into BG's and sneaking on people.
Can I get that in single player games?
At some point I had to start raiding for obvious reasons. I hated it. I hated wow from that moment.
Relying on peoples you do not know results in failure. It's not true for everyone.
But it's certainly not 11 millions of players.
What applies to wow applies to other games, with variants of course.
Have a good day!
Many have answered one part of the question, but what of the other? With the growing amount of soloability in MMOs, is it flat-out wrong for an MMO to have a soloable endgame? Or should the endgame always and forever be limited to groups?
There is also the problem varying player skills to contend with.
Typically, the first 10 levels are teaching a player how to play, after that you have to keep giving them little carrots to keep things interesting; a better sword, nifty armor, better powers, etc.
Eventually, all players reach the 'end game' and has a basic set of gear/skills/whatever for that level - some players can take that basic character and kill entire armies, other players with the same character shouldn't be allowed to log in without a helmet...
So, group encounters serve to level the playing field a bit by creating an average of 5,10,25,40,100 or whatever individual player's skill levels. This prevents players from camping the forum alternately complaining about 'easy mode' or 'impossible' encounters and keeps everyone paying.
Essentially, it boils down to the fact that creating content takes time and effort. Most players do want group play some if not most of the time, or else they would not be playing a multiplayer game. The leveling areas provide solo content if you want things you can kill on your own, but the general content additions are group-based because that is what serves the most players for the least cost/time/effort.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
endgame isn't the same as "having something to do solo".
endgame means the most challenging stuff in the game. and the most challenging will always involve more people, because interaction alone adds a degree of difficulty.
the point of grouping, of people banding together is to accomplish something more difficult than they can do on their own. if you can accomplish everything alone, then there is no point to grouping at all.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
The problem as I see it isn't a "group" thing. It's a "nothing else to do but combat" thing.
In the early MMOs, players who "hit the cap" had plenty of other things they could do (craft, roleplay, acquire materials, set up shop, politics, create things like cities). But that was before developers started designing games without those things.
The developers have more or less stripped the game of everything that was meanigful besides combat. This means that everybody who has hit the combat level cap has essentially no other game to play unless encounters are created where the level cap is meaningless.
Now, how do players overcome combat challenges that are too difficult?
1) Gain more levels.
2) Get better gear.
3) Increase the group size.
When you hit the level cap, option 1 is no longer available. When you've done everything you can do, and there's no way to acquire gear without completing quests, option 2 isn't available either. Therefore, the only way to surmount the combat challenge is to work with 3 exclusively.
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The only way to have an endgame that is solo-friendly is to play a sandbox MMO. Gear is rarely the ultimate goal in these games, instead it is player and character skill.. along with the acquisition of power(land/reputation/gold). The only problem with this is that there really isn't a sandbox MMO that's worth playing right now. EVE is a sci-fi MMO, so if you like space games.. you may want to try that. But, there are no fantasy sandboxes that are all that good at the moment.
FFA PvP, item decay and full loot isn't what scares people away. It's the lack of other game mechanics that make the game too difficult for the casual gamer to get into and have fun with. Until these companies figure out that you are forced to cater to casuals to have a successful game(by todays standards), they will continue to churn out garbage that rarely succeed. All the while, giving the sandbox name bad press.
No thieves. Towns should be safe areas. Houses should be safe areas. No instances PvP. Proper trading system that doesn't promote 'trade ganking'. Skill system in place that discourages macro'ing. Harsh murderer penalties. A skill cap. Easy and inuitive UI. A proper new player experience that keeps new players away from harm. Guild seiges and open world control points. Familair combat and camera system(Like WoW). Sea warfare. Lots of PvE content. Making harvested material heavy to players that don't have certain crafter skills, cutting down the harvester ganking. Public dungeons. Instanced arena combat where people can use their most powerful weapons without losing them to death. A rune system(like UO). Let's be honest here, you don't need to encourage PvP. If the ability to kill people is in the game, that's enough. People will make up their own reasons for doing it. So you make a lot of ways where people can avoid if, or help avoid it.
Problem here is, no one has tried all of these things. Either a game company caters too much to the PvP'ers, in turn.. alienating almost all of the casuals(Shadowbane and Darkfall). Or, they have catered to the PvE'ers.. alienating the PvP'ers in the process(Ultima Online). There has to be middle ground if you want a solid player base with both gamer types. I don't propose to take the grind of skills away, just to change it to discourage macro'ing. I don't propose to take full loot and FFA PvP away, just eliminate the annoying things that serve no purpose but to stroke hardcore gamer egos(town gank/trade gank/harvester gank). You'd still be free to kill newbies outside of starter areas. You'd still be free to kill defenseless harvesters. You'd be free to wage war against another guild and kill them unmerciffully. You'd be free to become a murderer and kill everything that moves. Isn't that enough? I think it is.
I got off topic, but here's the point. You want a MMO that allows you to be successful alone. That MMO doesn't exist currently without dealing with the sub-par sandbox games out there. Darkfall or EVE is your best bet, but I doubt either of them will make you happy.
When 'End-Game' in that game is tier 52 gear obtained in a place called 'uber ultimate dungeon', then no. Molten Core would not be end-game. It would be a dungeon that offers less than what end-game does, which in turns makes it... wait for it....
Not end-game.
I think it's ironic how you tell people to employ a sense of creativity when that game genre has all but stripped creativity from the gamer...making a theme-park game.
SOLO PLAY SHOULD NEVER BE REWARDED AS MUCH A GROUP PLAY.
YOU WANT THE BEST GEAR? GROUP! THAT'S RIGHT BE A BIT SOCIAL.
People dont want massive multiplayer online games they just want massive single player online games
thats just dumb if you want the reward of soloing something go play a single player game they still make them.
Why change the multiplayer to solo in a multiplayer game, it makes no sense.
The only content that should be soloable in a mmo game is the content enough to get you to level cap or end game but not everything. after that nothing should be soloable and thats that. Because of people wanting solo and easy stuff mmos are what they are right now.
End game for me is running around solo or with one other person looking for people to kill . ..
Many games out there let you do this. I cannot handle games that do not have FFA PVP . ..
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