1. there will always be people who want to end game no matter what and we should just simply let those people end game. its not a design flaw as much as it is a personality flaw of the gamer.
2. HOWEVER, if there is specific content in those upper levels that can honestly be determined to be generaly a great deal of fun compared to lower level content and not fun becuase its related to your progress then such content should be evenly move to other levels. I am not convinced that raiding is one of those things however.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
It's worth noting that content can be much more interesting and challenging if players are kept relatively similar in power with one another.
How would you (or anyone else reading for that matter) implement such a design though?
One caveat - still have to have "meaningful" progression.
So how do you have meaningful progression while still keeping player in a relatively similar power level to one another?
City of Heroes basically already does this with sidekicking. Progression is meaningful because it's what earns you new Powers and Slots (which increase your powers), but you can sidekick a lowbie up to a veteran and the lowbie will have the health/damage/to-hit as though they are the same level as the veteran. So a lowbie is like 70-95% as effective as the veteran (depending on the level disparity -- ie how many Powers they are lacking from being underleveled.) But the system provides the majority of the boost needed to get lower level players operating with the same effectiveness, and that's what matters.
Is this less meaningful than a game where your progression is a more permanent and real thing? Absolutely. But I feel it's worth it (primarily for a slightly offtopic reason: if two friends are different levels, they deserve to be able to play with each other in a MMORPG, period.)
Another quick example is Planetside, where leveling doesn't make you overtly more powerful, but instead makes you more flexible. Lateral progression is still meaningful, because flexibility is a form of power, but within the narrow toolset of a lowbie character you are still 100% effective.
...which is not all that different from Guild Wars. Both PS and GW sort of fail at the "sense of progression" side of things -- you don't get the sense that your character is growing in power (because it isn't) even though you gain access to a progressively larger array of tools.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
endgame concept is flawed. i know this has been stated before but changing the game when you get to the "end" will alienate your customers that just spent all that time playing a game they thought was about leveling.
get rid of levels, get rid of an end game, make the game about being FUN from the very start and the rest of the damn time you are playing.
Unfortunately, you'll get a lot of people who won't know what to do with themselves if you get rid of leveling, that's what they see as the purpose of MMOs.
The advantage to a game with a slow leveling curve, e.g., over a year to max level for most people, is that you don't really care about "end game." You care about what you are doing at the moment, because you know that "end game" is far away, if it ever comes.
Plus, games like that are less likely to stack all the content at the end, because they know that will tick off most of their players.
Making the path to end game super easy is what caused the race to end game, for the vast majority of people anyway, and what top ended the games.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I think a lot of people will agree with me that the absurd race to endgame is a major problem in most MMOs. People expect to get through the game in just a few days or few weeks so they can get to raiding and "the real game can begin". Personally, I detest endgame, I never play it and any character I have that reaches max level immediately gets retired because I choose not to engage in any of it.
I was thinking about how to slow people down so they took their time playing the game instead of chewing through content as fast as possible. What if the game wouldn't allow you to progress faster than a level a day? In some games, like CoX, in order to go up a level, you have to go see a trainer, which I think is more realistic than just magically dinging in the middle of an adventure and suddenly getting all kinds of new skills in the middle of nowhere. If you use trainers then no matter how much experience you have, the trainers will refuse to train you more than a single level per calendar day. All of the XP you get will go into an auxiliary account, you can still grind for gold or gear, but that XP won't become available to you until 12:01 am the next morning.
Of course, this will give people more time to spend on socializing, crafting, PvP, etc. Even if you grinded enough XP on day one to max your character, you'd still have to wait weeks to actually get there so people won't spend all of their waking moments grinding like there's no tomorrow. They'll have lots of time to explore and see each level. In a game with 100 levels, nobody can reach endgame before 100 days, no matter what they do. Certainly you could play 10 characters every day and level each of them a level, giving you 10 endgame characters, but you're still going to be waiting that 100 days before any of them max out.
I'd play it, assuming the rest of the game was good. It would keep everyone equal, no matter how long you played, you could never be superior just because you put your butt in a chair and played 24/7.
So what do you think?
Why do you want to get to the "end game" if it's raiding?
You've stated in several threads you hate "forced grouping" and raiding is forced grouping.
Why do you want to get to the "end game" if it's raiding?
You've stated in several threads you hate "forced grouping" and raiding is forced grouping.
I don't personally want to get to end-game, I don't play end-game content at all, I retire all characters that ever get to max level. What does that have to do with the thread as posted? Or are you just wasting everyone's time yet again?
So your saying since I only play 1 hour a day and can only get 1 level a day. Every other people should play at most 1 hour a day. To keep the pace of myself.
And since I don't personally participate and care about endgame, every other people should slow down their pace to play with me instead of blowing pass me.
Good perspective. Kind of like every thread in this forum.
So your saying since I only play 1 hour a day and can only get 1 level a day. Every other people should play at most 1 hour a day. To keep the pace of myself.
And since I don't personally participate and care about endgame, every other people should slow down their pace to play with me instead of blowing pass me.
Good perspective. Kind of like every thread in this forum.
You can get at maximum one level per day. You don't automatically get one just for logging on. You still have to do the work, if you don't get out and play the game and earn the XP, you don't level until you do. The point is to make the point of the game the journey, not the destination. Once you're there, it's all over, you're already done.
So your saying since I only play 1 hour a day and can only get 1 level a day. Every other people should play at most 1 hour a day. To keep the pace of myself.
And since I don't personally participate and care about endgame, every other people should slow down their pace to play with me instead of blowing pass me.
Good perspective. Kind of like every thread in this forum.
You can get at maximum one level per day. You don't automatically get one just for logging on. You still have to do the work, if you don't get out and play the game and earn the XP, you don't level until you do. The point is to make the point of the game the journey, not the destination. Once you're there, it's all over, you're already done.
Oh that is perfectly fine... ""for you""
I think you failed the part that some other people plays much more than you per day. Maybe they get 10 level a day because they play 10 times more than you. It have nothing to do with rushing to destination.
And unlike you some people actaully participates in endgame content. For you end game is destination, for other people it's new beginning.
I think you failed the part that some other people plays much more than you per day. Maybe they get 10 level a day because they play 10 times more than you. It have nothing to do with rushing to destination.
And unlike you some people actaully participates in endgame content. For you end game is destination, for other people it's new beginning.
People don't all like the same type of spaghetti sauce. The way to deal with that is to make several types.
Trying to get levelers and end gamers to enjoy the same game is just as foolish as mixing PvP & PvE or solo and group players.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by MMO_Doubter Originally posted by laokoko Oh that is perfectly fine... ""for you"" I think you failed the part that some other people plays much more than you per day. Maybe they get 10 level a day because they play 10 times more than you. It have nothing to do with rushing to destination. And unlike you some people actaully participates in endgame content. For you end game is destination, for other people it's new beginning.
People don't all like the same type of spaghetti sauce. The way to deal with that is to make several types. Trying to get levelers and end gamers to enjoy the same game is just as foolish as mixing PvP & PvE or solo and group players. . The thing about spaghetti sauce is that you can't combine them. You don't mix ragoo with hunts for example. Spaghetti sauce mixes. . But you can combine different types of MMOs into one. . Players would just follow their own type of game play. One would do sandbox type stuff, the other would grind out levels. . The spaghetti sauce analogy falls short.
I think you failed the part that some other people plays much more than you per day. Maybe they get 10 level a day because they play 10 times more than you. It have nothing to do with rushing to destination.
And unlike you some people actaully participates in endgame content. For you end game is destination, for other people it's new beginning.
People don't all like the same type of spaghetti sauce. The way to deal with that is to make several types.
Trying to get levelers and end gamers to enjoy the same game is just as foolish as mixing PvP & PvE or solo and group players.
There's nothing foolish about mixing PvP and PVE or mixing solo and group players. Many people enjoy all of those playstyles at different times. What's foolish is doing it badly. Most MMMOs are simply clumsy at it. People don't like to be forced into any particular playstyle but they can be encouraged.
If said encouragement is required to allow me to proceed with my PVE game, I will stop playing at that point in time. I don't spend my time analyzing the best combination to use vs. other characters as much as some people do, so I'm guaranteed to lose and not have fun in PVP... so I don't do it. Period. I play a game for the fun and cooperation factors. I had my fair share of PVP play in first person shooters where everyone had an equal chance at killing everyone else. I'm done with PVP.
If said encouragement is required to allow me to proceed with my PVE game, I will stop playing at that point in time. I don't spend my time analyzing the best combination to use vs. other characters as much as some people do, so I'm guaranteed to lose and not have fun in PVP... so I don't do it. Period. I play a game for the fun and cooperation factors. I had my fair share of PVP play in first person shooters where everyone had an equal chance at killing everyone else. I'm done with PVP.
I hate PvP with a passion, I won't engage in it at all, at least on one-on-one. It leads to horrible communities and the last thing I want to do in a game is have to keep looking over my shoulder wondering if someone is about to stab me in the back.
Since it has been mentioned, WoW that is, one should look at what the endgame actually is: leveling via gear.
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All games have some kind of progression. In Eve you get better ships and you increase your skills. In WoW, your armor is your ship. You can't improve your skills anymore once you hit 80.
So what you are saying is that WoW lacks the progression that Eve and other games offer...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Since it has been mentioned, WoW that is, one should look at what the endgame actually is: leveling via gear.
Say you have a fresh 80 that has not run any dungeons or quests, and they have a Necropolis Breastplate of the Champion. It is an iLevel 187 item with the following stats:
1651 Armor, 56 Str, 85 Sta, and 56 Def
Say eventually they run Heroics and get the Ziggurat Imprinted Chestguard. It is an iLvl 200 item with the following stats:
You will see such similar gear disparities all over WoW, where the stats on gear are two to three times what they are or more compared to another piece of gear.
Instead of grinding levels to improve their characters, they are grinding instances to improve their character. They are deluding themselves if they think endgame is anything but grinding whatever bauble the devs throw out to them as opposed to doing something in any sense of the meaning.
Some people realize that and hate it. Some people realize that and are fine with it. Some would prefer just to start at that gear grinding point, while some would be happier if there were another 80 levels or so of content to explore instead.
Can you name a game that doesn't have some sort of grind for something? I mean there are games like CSS but that isn't the same. Every mmo has to have some sort of objective or something to go for, which in turn will end up replacing leveling if there isn't leveling at that point. The exploration from level A-B sure, but at one point or another you are going to want to get to a new area and thus have to get to level B to go to zone B. Every game has to have an objective and if it doesn't people will end up getting bored.
In going from Level 1 to 80, you can grind various mobs - you can grind various quests - you can grind various dungeons. All but the last, you can do in groups or alone. Once you hit 80, in order to continue your "progression" - you must grind the same limited number of bosses in groups. Oh sure, there is a period there where you can get quest greens and blues or even grind various Heroics... but inevitably, because of gear disparity being the only form of progression actually offered in the game - you raid or the game offers you nothing... which some find boring.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
So why not eliminate levels? Let everyone start at 80. Don't give them any gear and then the pursuit of gear becomes the only progression. Modify all the content so it give a challenge to a level 80, eg, there are only level 80 mobs.
Since Levels and Gear are the exact same thing (Progression), this doesn't really change much apart from the "flavor" of progression (a game without levels which was all about items would seem a little bit innovative to players, simply because it's not done all that often.)
How can you say it would be innovative when it is basically what is wrong with end game already? It would be innovative to leave the original part that people enjoy and just saddle them with what they are complaining about? Sounds like a plan for fail...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
If said encouragement is required to allow me to proceed with my PVE game, I will stop playing at that point in time. I don't spend my time analyzing the best combination to use vs. other characters as much as some people do, so I'm guaranteed to lose and not have fun in PVP... so I don't do it. Period. I play a game for the fun and cooperation factors. I had my fair share of PVP play in first person shooters where everyone had an equal chance at killing everyone else. I'm done with PVP.
I hate PvP with a passion, I won't engage in it at all, at least on one-on-one. It leads to horrible communities and the last thing I want to do in a game is have to keep looking over my shoulder wondering if someone is about to stab me in the back.
Forget that. Give me PvE 100% of the time.
I enjoy PvP and think that most games need more PvP. Face it, PvE is a pathetic farce of limited and repetitive AIs with scripted encounters that offer all the challenge of tying your shoes on a quiet Sunday morning. Other players offer the unexpected, creating a dance that will get your heart racing. There is act, counteract, and the dance goes on. PvE is like watching paint dry on a wet day.
The funny thing is, they will never make the AI smarter - because the people that say they want PvE are not really looking for a challenge - they are looking for easy.
Think about your typical encounter, how many mobs stand around doing nothing while you kill other members of their faction? There are so many things wrong with PvE, but folks would not want that to change - then they would have to try...
One of my favorite laughable discrepancies between PvE and PvP: you have a tank, dps, and heals.
PVE: the mob tries to kill the tank, then dps, and then heals (or heals before dps if the dps stops damage while heals still heals).
PVP: kill heals, kill dps, and then tank (they do run around at times).
Until that issue is resolved, PvE is a joke. Even with that resolved, there is still so much broken with PvE. Might as well play Bejeweled while eating Twinkies and say you are hardcore...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Make it so the content the players experience are the same for all levels of players and that the content the player experiences happen because of choice. You are level 50, your character is equivalent to 50 level 1's, meaning most substantially that 50 level 1's could accomplish anything a level 50 could, not like in wow where a level 1 simply can not do anything in certain areas, make content a choice and not a path.
If said encouragement is required to allow me to proceed with my PVE game, I will stop playing at that point in time. I don't spend my time analyzing the best combination to use vs. other characters as much as some people do, so I'm guaranteed to lose and not have fun in PVP... so I don't do it. Period. I play a game for the fun and cooperation factors. I had my fair share of PVP play in first person shooters where everyone had an equal chance at killing everyone else. I'm done with PVP.
I hate PvP with a passion, I won't engage in it at all, at least on one-on-one. It leads to horrible communities and the last thing I want to do in a game is have to keep looking over my shoulder wondering if someone is about to stab me in the back.
Forget that. Give me PvE 100% of the time.
I enjoy PvP and think that most games need more PvP. Face it, PvE is a pathetic farce of limited and repetitive AIs with scripted encounters that offer all the challenge of tying your shoes on a quiet Sunday morning. Other players offer the unexpected, creating a dance that will get your heart racing. There is act, counteract, and the dance goes on. PvE is like watching paint dry on a wet day.
The funny thing is, they will never make the AI smarter - because the people that say they want PvE are not really looking for a challenge - they are looking for easy.
Think about your typical encounter, how many mobs stand around doing nothing while you kill other members of their faction? There are so many things wrong with PvE, but folks would not want that to change - then they would have to try...
One of my favorite laughable discrepancies between PvE and PvP: you have a tank, dps, and heals.
PVE: the mob tries to kill the tank, then dps, and then heals (or heals before dps if the dps stops damage while heals still heals).
PVP: kill heals, kill dps, and then tank (they do run around at times).
Until that issue is resolved, PvE is a joke. Even with that resolved, there is still so much broken with PvE. Might as well play Bejeweled while eating Twinkies and say you are hardcore...
You do know that people play MMOs for more than the combat sometimes, right? You sound to me like the typical PVP elitist player who can't see past the tip of his nose. When you say that PVE players don't want enhanced AI, I can't begin to tell you how wrong you are. That would be like me saying all PVP is a gank fest where people are scared to take on someone within 5 levels of themselves and they attack newbies all day.
You also forget about utility classes (that are becoming scarce) like crowd control, buffs, debuffs, etc. There are those of us that would love to be attacked by creatures that will try to run when hurt, grab help, and be more difficult. I could categorize all PVP players as jack of all trade, master of none, flavor of the week builds and ruthless assassins. I could say you simply want a more complicated FPS.
I'd rather explore a huge world avoiding combat to achieve my goals while you would sit out there and attack me just because you have some superiority complex to appease. Personally, I could care less if you want to fight other players, but don't even think it would be beneficial to force those players who don't want to fight other players to do so.
With PVP conflict comes harsh words, revenge tactics, and all the "bad" sides of human nature. I tried to play on the PVP servers in Everquest once and started off In Qeynos where I saw a Dark Elf hunting some thing in one of the neighboring zones. I was leaving him alone and sharing spawns because he wasn't aggressing. A few minutes later someone else saw him and within seconds a whole party was there killing him simply because they could. He knew some common language and was telling them that he meant them no harm and was simply there looking for an item. He respawned and came back for his body and they killed him again, and again. I heard them calling him all kinds of things and basically being asses. Eventually a GM was called to alow him to get his body and the people there said, "We told him to get his body and go home, but he refused." I jumped in and called them out on their lie and the proceeeded to spam me with hateful responses. If it was full PVP, I'm sure I would have been killed for stating the truth. This wasn't one person. It was a group of six and none of them showed what I consider to be manners during the whole encounter. I was done with PVP from that point on.
I think you failed the part that some other people plays much more than you per day. Maybe they get 10 level a day because they play 10 times more than you. It have nothing to do with rushing to destination.
And unlike you some people actaully participates in endgame content. For you end game is destination, for other people it's new beginning.
People don't all like the same type of spaghetti sauce. The way to deal with that is to make several types.
Trying to get levelers and end gamers to enjoy the same game is just as foolish as mixing PvP & PvE or solo and group players.
There's nothing foolish about mixing PvP and PVE or mixing solo and group players. Many people enjoy all of those playstyles at different times. What's foolish is doing it badly. Most MMMOs are simply clumsy at it. People don't like to be forced into any particular playstyle but they can be encouraged.
You cannot force the willing. I think that's where your analysis falls apart.
Also, adding one "playstyle" can seriously degrade another, meaning you are "forcing" a playstyle on everyone by adding a so-called "choice".
Adding a "choice" to PvP is taking away the real choice to play an FFA PvP game.
So in reality, you're still FORCING a particular playstyle, the only difference is, it's the playstyle YOU happen to like, and so you call it "choice".
but in reality, if someone really enjoys an FFA PvP game, you're taking away thier choice to play such a game, by adding safe areas. You're not adding "choice" at all, simply designing a game you like to play.
You perceive it as a "choice" because you like the design, nothing more. But all you're doing is forcing everyone to play a game with a safe area.
There's nothing foolish about mixing PvP and PVE or mixing solo and group players. Many people enjoy all of those playstyles at different times. What's foolish is doing it badly. Most MMMOs are simply clumsy at it. People don't like to be forced into any particular playstyle but they can be encouraged.
You cannot force the willing. I think that's where your analysis falls apart.
Also, adding one "playstyle" can seriously degrade another, meaning you are "forcing" a playstyle on everyone by adding a so-called "choice".
Adding a "choice" to PvP is taking away the real choice to play an FFA PvP game.
So in reality, you're still FORCING a particular playstyle, the only difference is, it's the playstyle YOU happen to like, and so you call it "choice".
but in reality, if someone really enjoys an FFA PvP game, you're taking away thier choice to play such a game, by adding safe areas. You're not adding "choice" at all, simply designing a game you like to play.
You perceive it as a "choice" because you like the design, nothing more. But all you're doing is forcing everyone to play a game with a safe area.
FFA PvP is forced game play too.
You can force another player into participating in YOUR game play style by attacking him/her. They have no choice.
Removing choice is forcing a play style. Plain a simple.
You don't need to force the willing. You can't force the unwilling. They Won't Play. What you can do is minimixze the impact on both playstyles and allow them to play as the wish within the same game. If you don't like safe areas don't use them and they will have NO impact on your game play.
But where oh where would the wolves go to feed on the helpless sheep if all the sheep are safely protected by their shepards?
The wolves would starve!
You can't be a coward and pray on the weak if their are no weak sheep to prey on.
Safe areas in PvP games to level/skill up without risk of being attacked serve to empower the sheep to become wolves themselves, something the other wolves don't like because it might actually give them a challenge.
I think you failed the part that some other people plays much more than you per day. Maybe they get 10 level a day because they play 10 times more than you. It have nothing to do with rushing to destination.
And unlike you some people actaully participates in endgame content. For you end game is destination, for other people it's new beginning.
People don't all like the same type of spaghetti sauce. The way to deal with that is to make several types.
Trying to get levelers and end gamers to enjoy the same game is just as foolish as mixing PvP & PvE or solo and group players.
There's nothing foolish about mixing PvP and PVE or mixing solo and group players. Many people enjoy all of those playstyles at different times. What's foolish is doing it badly. Most MMMOs are simply clumsy at it. People don't like to be forced into any particular playstyle but they can be encouraged.
You cannot force the willing. I think that's where your analysis falls apart.
Also, adding one "playstyle" can seriously degrade another, meaning you are "forcing" a playstyle on everyone by adding a so-called "choice".
Adding a "choice" to PvP is taking away the real choice to play an FFA PvP game.
So in reality, you're still FORCING a particular playstyle, the only difference is, it's the playstyle YOU happen to like, and so you call it "choice".
but in reality, if someone really enjoys an FFA PvP game, you're taking away thier choice to play such a game, by adding safe areas. You're not adding "choice" at all, simply designing a game you like to play.
You perceive it as a "choice" because you like the design, nothing more. But all you're doing is forcing everyone to play a game with a safe area.
Where this fails is the realization that your chosen playstyle depends on the cooperation of others. Like FFA PvP, it's not something you choose, it's something that you impose on everyone around you and in order for you to get any enjoyment out of it, you have to make everyone like you.
Except you have absolutely no right whatsoever to do so. You cannot force anyone to do what you want them to do, just so you get your grouping jollies. It's funny that every time someone comes up with a method whereby groupers can get the kind of challenge they want, the groupers themselves shoot it down because it doesn't force everyone to do what they want them to do.
Comments
Two factors.
1. there will always be people who want to end game no matter what and we should just simply let those people end game. its not a design flaw as much as it is a personality flaw of the gamer.
2. HOWEVER, if there is specific content in those upper levels that can honestly be determined to be generaly a great deal of fun compared to lower level content and not fun becuase its related to your progress then such content should be evenly move to other levels. I am not convinced that raiding is one of those things however.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
City of Heroes basically already does this with sidekicking. Progression is meaningful because it's what earns you new Powers and Slots (which increase your powers), but you can sidekick a lowbie up to a veteran and the lowbie will have the health/damage/to-hit as though they are the same level as the veteran. So a lowbie is like 70-95% as effective as the veteran (depending on the level disparity -- ie how many Powers they are lacking from being underleveled.) But the system provides the majority of the boost needed to get lower level players operating with the same effectiveness, and that's what matters.
Is this less meaningful than a game where your progression is a more permanent and real thing? Absolutely. But I feel it's worth it (primarily for a slightly offtopic reason: if two friends are different levels, they deserve to be able to play with each other in a MMORPG, period.)
Another quick example is Planetside, where leveling doesn't make you overtly more powerful, but instead makes you more flexible. Lateral progression is still meaningful, because flexibility is a form of power, but within the narrow toolset of a lowbie character you are still 100% effective.
...which is not all that different from Guild Wars. Both PS and GW sort of fail at the "sense of progression" side of things -- you don't get the sense that your character is growing in power (because it isn't) even though you gain access to a progressively larger array of tools.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Unfortunately, you'll get a lot of people who won't know what to do with themselves if you get rid of leveling, that's what they see as the purpose of MMOs.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
The advantage to a game with a slow leveling curve, e.g., over a year to max level for most people, is that you don't really care about "end game." You care about what you are doing at the moment, because you know that "end game" is far away, if it ever comes.
Plus, games like that are less likely to stack all the content at the end, because they know that will tick off most of their players.
Making the path to end game super easy is what caused the race to end game, for the vast majority of people anyway, and what top ended the games.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Why do you want to get to the "end game" if it's raiding?
You've stated in several threads you hate "forced grouping" and raiding is forced grouping.
I don't personally want to get to end-game, I don't play end-game content at all, I retire all characters that ever get to max level. What does that have to do with the thread as posted? Or are you just wasting everyone's time yet again?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
So your saying since I only play 1 hour a day and can only get 1 level a day. Every other people should play at most 1 hour a day. To keep the pace of myself.
And since I don't personally participate and care about endgame, every other people should slow down their pace to play with me instead of blowing pass me.
Good perspective. Kind of like every thread in this forum.
You can get at maximum one level per day. You don't automatically get one just for logging on. You still have to do the work, if you don't get out and play the game and earn the XP, you don't level until you do. The point is to make the point of the game the journey, not the destination. Once you're there, it's all over, you're already done.
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Oh that is perfectly fine... ""for you""
I think you failed the part that some other people plays much more than you per day. Maybe they get 10 level a day because they play 10 times more than you. It have nothing to do with rushing to destination.
And unlike you some people actaully participates in endgame content. For you end game is destination, for other people it's new beginning.
If you want players to spend more time at the lower levels - give them a real reason to level alts.
Put in a system that boosts max level characters when an alt hits various leveling milestone. L10, L20, etc.
For me, at least, this would be a much more fun way to power up my main.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
People don't all like the same type of spaghetti sauce. The way to deal with that is to make several types.
Trying to get levelers and end gamers to enjoy the same game is just as foolish as mixing PvP & PvE or solo and group players.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Trying to get levelers and end gamers to enjoy the same game is just as foolish as mixing PvP & PvE or solo and group players.
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The thing about spaghetti sauce is that you can't combine them. You don't mix ragoo with hunts for example. Spaghetti sauce mixes.
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But you can combine different types of MMOs into one.
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Players would just follow their own type of game play. One would do sandbox type stuff, the other would grind out levels.
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The spaghetti sauce analogy falls short.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
If said encouragement is required to allow me to proceed with my PVE game, I will stop playing at that point in time. I don't spend my time analyzing the best combination to use vs. other characters as much as some people do, so I'm guaranteed to lose and not have fun in PVP... so I don't do it. Period. I play a game for the fun and cooperation factors. I had my fair share of PVP play in first person shooters where everyone had an equal chance at killing everyone else. I'm done with PVP.
I hate PvP with a passion, I won't engage in it at all, at least on one-on-one. It leads to horrible communities and the last thing I want to do in a game is have to keep looking over my shoulder wondering if someone is about to stab me in the back.
Forget that. Give me PvE 100% of the time.
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So what you are saying is that WoW lacks the progression that Eve and other games offer...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
In going from Level 1 to 80, you can grind various mobs - you can grind various quests - you can grind various dungeons. All but the last, you can do in groups or alone. Once you hit 80, in order to continue your "progression" - you must grind the same limited number of bosses in groups. Oh sure, there is a period there where you can get quest greens and blues or even grind various Heroics... but inevitably, because of gear disparity being the only form of progression actually offered in the game - you raid or the game offers you nothing... which some find boring.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
How can you say it would be innovative when it is basically what is wrong with end game already? It would be innovative to leave the original part that people enjoy and just saddle them with what they are complaining about? Sounds like a plan for fail...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I enjoy PvP and think that most games need more PvP. Face it, PvE is a pathetic farce of limited and repetitive AIs with scripted encounters that offer all the challenge of tying your shoes on a quiet Sunday morning. Other players offer the unexpected, creating a dance that will get your heart racing. There is act, counteract, and the dance goes on. PvE is like watching paint dry on a wet day.
The funny thing is, they will never make the AI smarter - because the people that say they want PvE are not really looking for a challenge - they are looking for easy.
Think about your typical encounter, how many mobs stand around doing nothing while you kill other members of their faction? There are so many things wrong with PvE, but folks would not want that to change - then they would have to try...
One of my favorite laughable discrepancies between PvE and PvP: you have a tank, dps, and heals.
PVE: the mob tries to kill the tank, then dps, and then heals (or heals before dps if the dps stops damage while heals still heals).
PVP: kill heals, kill dps, and then tank (they do run around at times).
Until that issue is resolved, PvE is a joke. Even with that resolved, there is still so much broken with PvE. Might as well play Bejeweled while eating Twinkies and say you are hardcore...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Make it so the content the players experience are the same for all levels of players and that the content the player experiences happen because of choice. You are level 50, your character is equivalent to 50 level 1's, meaning most substantially that 50 level 1's could accomplish anything a level 50 could, not like in wow where a level 1 simply can not do anything in certain areas, make content a choice and not a path.
You do know that people play MMOs for more than the combat sometimes, right? You sound to me like the typical PVP elitist player who can't see past the tip of his nose. When you say that PVE players don't want enhanced AI, I can't begin to tell you how wrong you are. That would be like me saying all PVP is a gank fest where people are scared to take on someone within 5 levels of themselves and they attack newbies all day.
You also forget about utility classes (that are becoming scarce) like crowd control, buffs, debuffs, etc. There are those of us that would love to be attacked by creatures that will try to run when hurt, grab help, and be more difficult. I could categorize all PVP players as jack of all trade, master of none, flavor of the week builds and ruthless assassins. I could say you simply want a more complicated FPS.
I'd rather explore a huge world avoiding combat to achieve my goals while you would sit out there and attack me just because you have some superiority complex to appease. Personally, I could care less if you want to fight other players, but don't even think it would be beneficial to force those players who don't want to fight other players to do so.
With PVP conflict comes harsh words, revenge tactics, and all the "bad" sides of human nature. I tried to play on the PVP servers in Everquest once and started off In Qeynos where I saw a Dark Elf hunting some thing in one of the neighboring zones. I was leaving him alone and sharing spawns because he wasn't aggressing. A few minutes later someone else saw him and within seconds a whole party was there killing him simply because they could. He knew some common language and was telling them that he meant them no harm and was simply there looking for an item. He respawned and came back for his body and they killed him again, and again. I heard them calling him all kinds of things and basically being asses. Eventually a GM was called to alow him to get his body and the people there said, "We told him to get his body and go home, but he refused." I jumped in and called them out on their lie and the proceeeded to spam me with hateful responses. If it was full PVP, I'm sure I would have been killed for stating the truth. This wasn't one person. It was a group of six and none of them showed what I consider to be manners during the whole encounter. I was done with PVP from that point on.
You cannot force the willing. I think that's where your analysis falls apart.
Also, adding one "playstyle" can seriously degrade another, meaning you are "forcing" a playstyle on everyone by adding a so-called "choice".
Adding a "choice" to PvP is taking away the real choice to play an FFA PvP game.
So in reality, you're still FORCING a particular playstyle, the only difference is, it's the playstyle YOU happen to like, and so you call it "choice".
but in reality, if someone really enjoys an FFA PvP game, you're taking away thier choice to play such a game, by adding safe areas. You're not adding "choice" at all, simply designing a game you like to play.
You perceive it as a "choice" because you like the design, nothing more. But all you're doing is forcing everyone to play a game with a safe area.
FFA PvP is forced game play too.
You can force another player into participating in YOUR game play style by attacking him/her. They have no choice.
Removing choice is forcing a play style. Plain a simple.
But where oh where would the wolves go to feed on the helpless sheep if all the sheep are safely protected by their shepards?
The wolves would starve!
You can't be a coward and pray on the weak if their are no weak sheep to prey on.
Safe areas in PvP games to level/skill up without risk of being attacked serve to empower the sheep to become wolves themselves, something the other wolves don't like because it might actually give them a challenge.
Where this fails is the realization that your chosen playstyle depends on the cooperation of others. Like FFA PvP, it's not something you choose, it's something that you impose on everyone around you and in order for you to get any enjoyment out of it, you have to make everyone like you.
Except you have absolutely no right whatsoever to do so. You cannot force anyone to do what you want them to do, just so you get your grouping jollies. It's funny that every time someone comes up with a method whereby groupers can get the kind of challenge they want, the groupers themselves shoot it down because it doesn't force everyone to do what they want them to do.
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The answer is easy: make the entire game fun, not just the end.
I want a Red Dead Redemption MMO because of this.