Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Risk vs Reward Open World PVP.
robert4818
Member UncommonPosts: 661
First. Let m talk just a second about the difference between Open World PVP and Free for all PVP, as I see them often confused.
Free For All PVP is a game where PVP is intended to be between anyone and everyone, with no consequences what-so-ever. (Think a standard FPS deathmatch)
Open World PVP is a game where it is possible to kill anyone and everyone, but it is NOT the intended primary means of play. (Think of a team deathmatch with friendly fire turned on.)
Now that that is out of the way, and people have a bit better idea of the concept I'm talking about. I'll get on to my main point. (At this point I will assume a form of non-consensual PVP that allows for looting).
MMOs with an open world PVP system usually have a sort of unbalanced risk/reward system when it comes to PVP. This is due to the nature of the video game system itself. In most cases, the risk and the reward are generally balanced. The higher the amount of risk one is willing to take, the higher the reward you get. This risk usually takes the form time, effort, or some sort of resources.
However, when a person in an Open World PVP decides to "turn criminal" and make gains from using the PVP system. The normal balance of risk and reward goes out the window. In this scenario, the reward goes up high, as a player is able to kill and then loot a corpse, but the risk drops low, as the amount of time, effort, and resources that go into it have dropped dramatically. Also, if the game offers some sort of "safe" bank, then the risk of property loss goes down tremendously.
In real life this High Reward/Low Risk is balanced by the "higher" risk of death, or incarceration. In video games, those two things are actually removed from play. This leaves the game balance out the window, and actually makes the PVP a slightly better option than other playstyles.
My question, then, is HOW dow you restore balance to the "Criminal" gameplay style in such a way as to keep it a viable gameplay style with high rewards, but with a high enough risk to make people be wary about going into it?
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Comments
I thought that would be fairly obvious.
Killing players in a non-consensual manner and taking their stuff. (I.e. no declared guild/faction war, not in self defense, etc.)
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
You have to make following the rules and not being a criminal/murderer a far easier and safer and more profitable option in all but the rarest of circumstances.
You are right, in every MMO I have ever played (starting with UO) it was far EASIER to be a PK.
It was a lot harder to be the "good guy" because being good meant you had to do things the hard way.
You couldn't just loot and steal what you wanted from others, you had to go earn it, and even then it was likely someone who wanted things quick and easy would come and take it from you.
And since this is just a video game, what are really the consequences for doing things the easy way? Not many.
There are always safe havens and banks for criminals and murderers.
This needs to stop.
I was in an all PK guild on the Siege Perilous server of Ultima Online post-Trammel split. There was no Trammel on this server. But our guild stuck to a code of honor. We wouldn't mindlessly gank or grief other players. And we'd never steal anything of their corpses we couldn't use (and we forced ourselves to not use some weapon and armor types like plate, swords, kite shields etc. so we always left a lot behind.)
But unless they were attacking our home we'd always give them a choice to pay tribute and leave alive (and we never demanded a specific amount just whatever coin they dropped on the ground was fine).
It's a rarity to see PK guilds like this.
Most are asshats.
It is fairly obvious. People just like to tease, troll, or play devil's advocate.
It was never EASIER to be a PK in UO.
Even if everything else is the same except the PK getting lots of loot by killing newbie blues, the fact remained that a red was denied access to all towns but Bucs Den. That made it the exact OPPOSITE of easier.
When I used to play Everquest on the Rallos Zek server, PKs were infamous. They were called out and anyone who saw them would kill them on sight. Nobody grouped with them and there was zonewide efforts to track their movements. They may get away with PKing players from time to time, but there were whole guilds whose sole mission was to find and kill PKers. So, the PKs had a tough time of it considering players needed a group and a fair reputation to get anywhere in the game back in the day. That's a pretty big risk, and something that has pretty much vanished from PvP in MMORPGs today.
As far as faction-based PvP is concerned, red = dead. That's the way it should be in my opinion. Even the lower levels should be treated as enemies. For one day they will grow up and become strong enemies. Better to nip them in the bud.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I think the balance needs to be:
Good Guy "Low risk/Low Reward"
Bad Guy "High Risk/High Reward"
The appeal of being a criminal is the high profitability of it, and the low "Up front" risk of time effort and resources. However, this needs to be balanced with some sort of high "Back end" risk.
As for what this back-end risk should be, I don't know. It should be something that someone following the "good guy" path doesn't have to worry about.
Some random thoughts, that have NOT been clearly reasoned through for obvious loop holes.
-Stat loss / Loss of "Safe Zones"
-Permadeath
-Loss of certain non-item, non-property character traits that require a heavy amount of time energy or resources to aquire. (An example would be a quest that needs to be completed in order to continue advancing past a certain point. A PK who gets killed loses all advancement past that point, and must re-complete that quest)
-Ability to have their player owned structures destroyed.
-Players are forced to carry keys to their banks/storage, players can then loot their safe holds as well.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Awww man good old Everquest!
There's a few ways of doing this, mainly I believe that MMOs today shoiuld take mechanics from oldschool MMOs, and improve on them.
In a full-loot PvP game (an environment similar to Darkfall's lets say, which by the way does have way higher rewards for criminals than every other playstyle), is with a system similar to UO's. If you kill someone you're not meant to kill (this would be ANY player in a FFA PvP game such as Lineage 2, or a player of your faction in your description of an Open World PvP game), then you are RED for 30 minutes, adding an extra hour on top of it for every kill after that. And if you die when you're red, their is a small (not drastic) loss of progression OTHER than loot (Yes, i'm talking Skill / XP loss). Not a lot! Just enough to deter players a little more, and balance the risk / reward, as you said.
Another way to balance it, is make the game only partial body looting when a player dies, and remove skill-loss for red players. This is a less "free", less "hardcore" method.
It really is that simple, you just have to make players FEAR dying, by giving it long-term effects (not crappy death buffs people). In a full-loot PvP game (Darkfall), people can just put on some easily obtainable, mid-range gear, and go out "ganking" people farming mobs for a quick easy buck.
The system I described, RED name (Free kill to players, skill loss upon death, cannot enter most large cities/towns, restricted to small camps where maybe even NPCs sell the esentials for a slightly higher price??), will make people fear this a lot more. "Oh, but they can just roll around as a group of 10", yes, they can. But everyone who has hit the player who has died atleast ONCE (maybe twice depends on the gameplay of the game here) will get the penalty. Then these 10 players will be playing the game as criminals, fair play to them. Thats their style.
It's really that simple.
_________
Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
I think we are going about this from the wrong direction.
When most people think about open PvP, we try to examine it from the PvPer's perspective. In other words, how do we make PvP difficult, so that people are discouraged from doing it? Or, how do we make PvP profitable, so that people engage in it?
What results from this is that the game is built around the PvP needs, rather than the needs of all. And when the game is designed around the PvP experience, people who don't PvP aren't very interested. The result: PvPers, especially the "criminal" PKers, get bored, because there's nobody they can prey upon.
PvPers don't need limitations. They need victims. How do we get "victims" to play and not be concerned about being victims every now and then?
By giving them the things they want: robust non-combat gameplay. Robust non-PvP gameplay. Robust roleplay. A multitude of opportunities for creative expression. A relationship where combat players must rely on non-combat players to do combat well. This is what the best open PvP games did (Ultima Online, SWG, EVE). This is also what the worst open PvP games did poorly.
We have to think "sustainability" these days. Gankers aren't going to have gankees unless the game gives gankees something. The problem is, the ganking, powergamer, twinking element generally doesn't want to roleplay, work in a community, rely on crafted goods or non-combat professions, and thinks it's a waste of time and developer money to work on these things.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
You are on the right track. But I question whether the risk you propose is (as described) tough enough to minimize the criminal gameplay style.
Of course, balance is where its all at. It has to be rewarding enough to tempt people into wanting it, and harsh enough to make people thingk two or three times before comitting to that lifestyle.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
UO was not balanced properly. If it had been, Trammel would never have been created.
Eve, is balanced, not because of its NON-PVP stuff, but because of the risk involved, (and its also one game where the players truly can police themselves.)
SWG wasn't true Open PVP. It was consensual open world PVP, you opted into PVP flags.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Which is invalidated for every server aside from Siege P where PK's could simply use blue alts to supply their PKing character, effectively skirting much of the 'punishment' and 'hardship' of being a PK. Siege P handled this issue by limiting people to 1 character per account on that server. Pre-Trammel however, being a PK was anything but hard.
The problem with this is tha if you create a game with a robust non-PvP element, then those elements will attract primarlily non-PvP players for whom the PvP side adds nothing to their enjoyment of the game. Personally I am fascinated by the way EVE is designed and would gladly play the game if it was not for the pesky PvP in the game which ruins the aspects of the game I am interested in.
For a person interested primarily in non-PvP aspects of a MMORPG, PvP will never add much worthwhile stuff to the game experience. There is really nothing you can offer that person in a PvP game that a non-PvP game could not do better.
EvE has their own Trammel FYI - it's called High Security Space.
Siege Perilous was awesome... but it only worked for me cause I still had my other toons on Atlantic server.
So I could have my epic PvP experience on the one character and my PvE / dungeon / exploring / crafting on the other.
Then I could hop my Atlantic characters onto the Felucca side for some Factions PvP. Council of Mages FTW!
Problem is UO learned all the right lessons what, 10 years ago?
People like choices.
Only people who don't like others to have a choice are those who have something to gain by denying choice to others.
Oh not exactly. You can PvP in hi-sec.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Most of the problems stem from the global flagging systems that do not mimic the reality of decision making, and the lack of consequences that come from those choices. The first successful medieval PvP game will probably incorporate a system that is based more on " npc and player conquested " land, and less on the freind/foe kill count. This is very similar to what EVE has implemented with their 0.0 - 1.0 space rating system. Past games have always offered players easy options to " right their wrongs ", or play with little consequences for their past decisions. I think changing this to mimic the reality of " all or nothing " would probably go along way.
My game has the sort of open-world PvP that you describe. You can attack anyone anywhere at anytime. Although my game is just getting started I do not currently have an issue with rampant pks.
About 96% of my gameworld has no penalty for pvp/pk. The 4% the world where players start out has graduated levels of penalty for killing other players. You can still kill them, but there's a big price.
My game has a 'karma' system. You can increase your karma by killing certain creatures that are titled "Evil." You can also gain karma by killing legendary creatures or world event monsters.
If, however, you pvp/pk players in the secure areas of the world you lose karma. This is the only check in the system.
Karma does a number of things. There are titles that everyoen can see if you have very high (or very low) karma. Also your character name changes color. It's yellow for 0 karma, full green for 100+ karma and full red for -100 or lower karma. If your karma falls below -200 you are flagged as criminal and cannot re-enter the newbie area until you repair your karma to a satisfactory level.
Karma also have an impact on your gameplay. I have an item system similar in many ways to the loot in diablo 2. The higher your karma the higher chance you get of getting better loot from monsters. There are also "reflecting ponds" in the game. They spawn randomly in the world and you can place a single item in them. The pond will either duplicate your item or destroy it. It's a 50/50 proposition.
Higher karma improves your odds.
Lastly, you are only allowed to create 1 (one) account. There is only 1 character per account. The server detects and refuses to create new accounts for players who already have them based on a number of factors. IMO the 1 character limit per player is the only way to get open pvp to work. If you allow players to create multiple avatars or multiple accounts many will just make pure griefing chars.
Again my game is very small and just getting started, but it works. I see everyday from the logs where players log in and immediately go on a rampage. Once they lose enough karma they get banished from the kingdom. MANY of these players log out and immediately try to create another account. The server rejects them. Some log back into their first account and accept their fate. Many others never return. Those ones who don't return never had any intention of playing, they just wanted to grief.
I know my system will likely need further refinement, but I like how it's working so far.
cheers!
www.TheChippedDagger.com My 90-day 2D Java MMORPG project
They that can give up essential liberty for temporary safetey deserve neither. -- Ben Franklin
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door. -- Milton Berle
Solution is to make gear not the absolute key element about the players in your game. Games like WoW could never have open world PvP because it is far too gear driven (gearscore... enough proof). Darkfall you can get tons of gear to store and replace what you lose on death, be it PvE death or PvP. When gear is not the absolute of your game open wold pvp can be done correctly. Yes it sucks to die but since when is dying supposed to be made enjoyable? Death shouldn't be in your control all the time that just wouldn't be any fun imo.
High lvl 'criminal' killing low lvl players = low risk/low reward because lowbies have no items even of minor value.
High lvl 'good guy' killing high lvl players = high risk/high rewards because the items you can obtain have some use to you.
My problem with your system (which by the way seems effective Gratz on that) is that its primary purpose is to punish players for being "criminals." This is not exactly what I'm looking for. Your system is effective at keeping people from abusing the open world PVP in your game. But it does this by making the "criminal" lifestyle completely unattractive. It goes too far on the balance scale for my taste. What I'm looking for is a system that balances the high reward of the criminal lifestyle. You know the old saying:
There are old outlaws, and there are Bold Outlaws, but there are no OLD BOLD outlaws.
The draw of the criminal lifestyle is the fast "easy" rewards. The drawback is that these rewards have a very high price in the long run. Look at the ends of John Dillenger, and Al Capone. Both got rich and famous being criminals. Dillenger's life was cut short like so many others, and Capone spent the better part of his later years in Alcatraz.
I'm looking for a game that makes playing an outlaw fun, and rewarding, but with high risk associated with it.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Then what you are advocating is some form of permadeath or incarceration of the character (removal from the game world) or baniishment to those players who are "caught". Trick is, who gets to play the policeman?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Actually, I don't advocate either one of those scenarios personally, (unless the game already has permadeath as a design concept, at which point, the balance becomes automatic)
What I am saying is that RL has a sort of built in high risk to the lifestyle (death/incarceration) while Games currently lack that risk. I would like to find SOMETHING that replaces the RL risk, but is still high enough to be the risk that balances the high reward of the outlawstyle of play.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
I am interested by the implicit assumption that "PKs" are at no increased risk from other players because of their actions. I never played UO - did "PKs" get some kind of bonuses that non-PKs had no access to? Why is a PK character inherently more dangerous to a non-PK than the other way around?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Risk vs Reward.
The non-pk, by definition doesn't hunt other players. This means that they get their earnings by taking the time to hunt monsters, explore dungeons, etc. In general, this takes a certain amount of time and effort. This time and effort is the risk that is wagered in order for them to make their earnings.
The PK, on the other hand, hunts these same players. He is taking on the role of the criminal. His time and effort needed to secure all the materials that the other player has spent time/effort on is a fraction. The prey has spent time exploring an entire dungeon, killing multiple things, or harvesting from multiple nodes. The PK, gets all of this, by merely killing the other player. Since time and effort are the wagered risk, the PK is wagering less than the Non-PK.
This imbalance in time/effort (risk) versus the materialistic return (Reward) is what causes there to be an overabundence of PKs in a game. Sure the NON-PK can kill the PK, but the risk difference is still there. In the long run, since the risk/reward balance is off, the occasional losses of the PK are far offset by the skewed rewards.
I think that playing a criminal or an outlaw is a viable gameplay choice. However, the risk and rewards need to be balanced out. Since the criminal gameplay style is inherently imbalanced at the front end (kill and loot) the balance needs to be restored in some semblance at the back end. Now the exact form of that back end balance is the purpose of this thread. I do not profess to actually have an answer. Any answer I come up with would need to be tested.
The rewards for being an outlaw are easily tempting, big reward for little work. Its a form of "Get rich quick" that draws people in. The back end risk, whatever it may be, should be harsh enough to make people think twice about going down that path, but not so harsh as to actually completely end the practice of the gameplay choice.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
This implies that killing other players is considerably easier than killing NPC. This would in turn imply that the resources needed to kill NPCs would be more than enough to kill players. This would imply that players equipped to kill NPCs would be a bigger threat than those merely equipped to kill players.
In short: I dont believe it.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
A PK is geared for PvP whereas a regular player would be geared for PvE.
A PK is not afraid of 'going red' and becoming freely attackable... he alteady is.
A PK in the game world is one that is actively hunting other players. The other players are suually very unaware of their surroundings.
A PvE player usually is attached to his gear as if it's some coveted treasure, thus his fear of losing or desire to not chance losing it will affect how he does battle. A PK realizes that not only can he get more tomorrow but he already has a few extra sets back home right now.
In UO, the bonus a PK has is in preparation ond state of mind.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre