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Another raiding game?
Neanderthal
Member RarePosts: 1,861
I went and looked at Vanguard some and I just can't get past the stuff about raiding. They're talking about EQ1 style raiding. And how the rewards for raiding have to be better than the rewards for anything else. When I read that it seemed obvious to me that the game would revolve around raiding and little else. Just like what EQ1 turned into.
Now I know they say that there will be solo and group content as well. But let's just be realistic here. In a loot driven game, if the only way to get the best equipment, spells, crafting ingredients, quest pieces, and so on is through raiding...then everyone will feel like they have to raid. If you don't raid you will be left behind. Be honest now, you know that no one wants to be left out and left behind. Everyone wants to at least have a chance to go as far as he can with his character.
So it seems an inescapable conclusion that the the game will primarily be about raiding. And I'm wondering if there are really enough people who like raiding to make the game successfull. Remember what raiding was like in EQ? Eight or ten hour stretches of boredom and aggrivation just for a chance to roll on maybe one or two items. Guilds requiring you to attend X number of raids per month or you're not allowed to roll on loot at all. Guilds bickering with each other about who gets to raid this area at that time. New expansions making all of the equipment from previous content obsolete so that, as soon as you think you've accomplished something, they kick you in the face and throw you right back into the rat race. Have people already forgotten what it was like?
In EQ it all just kind of snuck up on us. In the early days we didn't know what we were in for and the game evolved over time into more and more of a raiding game. But here we have a new game starting out with EQ style raiding as the basis of gameplay from day one. Are there really enough people who would be willing to put themselves through that hell again? I don't know, maybe there are. I know there are people who claim to enjoy raiding, although I can't understand why anyone would enjoy it.
But if someone says they like it I have to believe them. And even though I know my tone here has been very negative I really don't begrudge you raiders getting a game you'll like. I just wonder if there are really enough of you. I wonder if everyone looking at vanguard really understands what they'll be getting themselves into.
I'm sorry to be such a troll but I had to get this off my chest after looking at the Vanguard site. If I save one poor innocent person from going through the hell that is EQ style raiding, then the flames that ensue will be worth it.
Comments
If people didn't like hardcore raiding games EQ wouldn't of had a 5 year run as the top mmo in North America. There is plenty of weak sauce games to please you weak sauce casual gamers, go play them.
You missed a big part of my point. EQ was huge success, that's true. But back in the day, I doubt that anyone who started playing EQ even knew what raiding was. And in the early days it wasn't such a raiding game. We all got sucked into that whole raiding mess as the game evolved. No one started EQ knowing what was in store for them.
But now we know, or at least a lot of us do and can warn those who don't.
As far as me being a casual player, I guess that depends on your definition. When I played EQ I'm sure I put in an above average amount of playing time. If your definition of casual is based on time spent in-game then I'm not a casual player. There is a difference between being hardcore and liking raiding. A person can be a very hardcore player but just doesn't want to regularly sit through 10 hour stretches of mind numbing boredom. A 10 hour stretch of something else? Fine. But 10 hours of the worst kind of boring misery? No thanks.
Neanderthal, just so you know, your not the only one thinking along that line...I totally agree that 1) Raiding is not necessarily hardcore content and 2) Not all hardcore players are into raiding. I was hoping Vanguard wouldn't be attracting the high-school mentality crowd, but...
Yes, different strokes for different folks. Most definately. Like I said, I really don't begrudge raiders getting a game that caters to them. The main thing that annoys me about Vanguard is that they are trying to sucker people who don't know any better into believing that a game with EQ style raiding will offer something for non-raiders. That's what got me all fired up about this. If they want to build a raiding game it's no skin off my arse. But they should be upfront about it and just call it a raiding game and admit that life in Vanguard will revolve around raiding.
I posted this for three reasons.
1. As a warning to people who are interested in the game but didn't play EQ and don't know what this raiding business is all about.
2. Just because I was ticked off by the Vanguard devs trying to sucker non-raiders into a raiding game.
3. Because I really do wonder if, after experiencing it in EQ, there are enough people who would, voluntarily and with fore-knowledge, put themselves through that hell again.
I don't really know what you mean by "weak sauce" games. But rest assured I won't be playing Vanguard. I assume that you think raiding is more challenging in some way and by "weak sauce" you mean non-raiding=non-challenging? I hope I'm not putting the wrong words in your mouth but since you didn't elaborate I have to try and extrapolate some meaning from what you said.
So tell me, what is so challenging about raiding? Nothing in EQ really required a lot of intelligence. And that included raiding. Seriously, did you find that raiding in EQ challenged your mental capacity?
Heck, EQ raiding didn't even challenge a persons ability to play their class well. Because each individual was just a drop in the bucket when they were standing in a crowd of 70 or 80 people. The only 'challenge' to raiding was the challenge of enduring the excruciating boredom of the ten hour raid. If you were a melee: stand in a crowd of other melees and turn on auto attack once in a while. Or if you were a caster: sit and stare at a wall for ten hours, standing up to cast a spell once in a while. Some challenge. Some fun. If you liked it that's fine. But don't get all high and mighty thinking that it was such a challenge. Implying that that was challenging is like saying reading a kindergarten primer over and over again for ten hours is challenging. Boring as hell, yes...challenging, no
Ah, the irony of someone named Neanderthal being one of the most intelligent and well spoken people on the boards is wonderful and thats not meant as a slight against you. Great, informative, well formed opinions. Thank you.
As I said...the high-school level of intelligence from OTHER posters is dissapointing. "Weak sauce" indeed. What grade are you in? 8th?
Actually I'm a senior in HS and I have a choice of highly ranked colleges to attend next year. Your digs at my intelligence are rather childish in their own right. By weak sauce I meant the whole game can be played and finished within 2-3 months. My original posts were based on me thinking you were a casual gamer. I guess now I should assume you like to login and sit around and talk to people for 10 hours, okay. I have something better for you, www.mirc.com, you'll thank me for this. Also, on the subject of EQ Raiding, if you think that is all that happened during a raid, you must not of raided a properly challenging mob with a well organized guild.
Edit: What is the difference between your description of EQ raiding and solo grouping?
I never said their was a difference. Your assuming far too much about many of my points of view. MY assumptions are based on use of vulgar and rediculous language. Regardless, this is not an argument even worth continuing, so, I wash my hands of it.
Just to prove I'm not doing this to be a jerk, lets just drop the whole thing and move onto more constructive posting. I've allready said I'm done, so I leave it to you.
Back to the point of the post, I'm hoping for more than just raiding. I'd rather like some immersive plot lines, rather like the old days of D&D...well, not too old or your just dungeon crawling (raiding...?)...that I can share with folks met in game. I'd rather like non-repeatable, GM lead quests on occassion as I realise thats not something they can do ALL the time. If your familiar with the game, Wish was exactly what I was looking for. Massive world altering events that everyone could contribute to in some degree with whatever talents they had. Even if this was just once a week...hell, once a MONTH, I'd be happy.
I don't think I can go on with this much more without degenerating more and more into simple trolling. And my anger after checking the Vanguard site is dying down now, so I'm also going to drop it after this post. I said what I had to say.
Just to be fair I'll admit that I did over generalize about raiding. But not very much in my opinion.
The main thing here is that Vanguard is going to be a raiding game. And that's fine. But they shouldn't be trying to convince non-raiders that there will be a place for them in a raiding game.
He doesn't have to stab at your intelligence, your doing a good enough job of making people see your a complete moron. I've been in highly organized guilds.. I've been in on the kills of the top mobs in EQ pre OoW. You seem to think raiding is some difficult thing. Tactics change from mob to mob but it's not anything hard. I happen to agree with the original poster, I played EQ from release and raiding was barely a part of the game. Back then the only raid capable places, were Hate, Fear, Naggy and Vox. It was a different time and imo a better one. The community was more tightly knit and the world was much bigger. All EQ has become since PoP is one raid zone after another, with ldon excluded. Add on top of that the fact that PoK completely ruined the game for many old schoolers like myself. So excuse us if we're a little hesitant when a game we're looking forward to starts talking about heavy raiding.
Basically this guy posts his opinion and you coming in and bash him for that. That my friend is childish. Maybe he doesn't want to play another game, maybe he's looking forward to Vanguard like me.. Maybe he wants a fair shake at what his monthly costs entitles him to. Maybe, just maybe his opinions could make the game better? You don't know, because people like you are just to quick to tell people to shut up and go play something else. Get over yourself.
Wisdom > Intelligence and from where I'm sitting, you don't know much. Grow up.
Anyway to the original poster, good job, I agree with what your saying for the most part. I'm hoping that they'll find some balance from raiding and solo content. In all honestly the best gear should come from more difficult challenges, but gear that doesn't tip the game out of balance.
SG
Originally posted by Wickes
BTW, Saragoth, it's just a guess ... but I'd bet you were banned for bad language.
The impression I am getting from the FAQ and the dev posts I have read is that they are designing a game that is most closely rivaled to Original EQ, RoK and SoV. I personally wouldn't call that just "another raiding game."
Yes...and no.
Yes, the basic game they design is design with the goal to be better then Kunark was(WoW have the same goal, but very differents ideas).
However, Brad in particuliar, as well as the dev team, say specific servers will be part of a major aspect in the game. When I ask them if there would be ''non-raiding server'', they raise an eyebrows and seem quite interested at the idea. Will they design those servers? If so will it be like PvP was in EQ or will they developp it to some extend, to completely crush LDoN as far as grouping goes? They have been elusive and carefully rephrase every sentence to not let you know either way, it say casual(which they assume = solo for some reasons), grouping & raiding. They say you wont find the ultimate doomslaying items in casuals setting. They say nada about grouping or raiding rewards and specifics servers.
I keep looking from time to time, if there is a game that dont make room for solo that I would accept to consider, it is either what SoE or Sigil make, because I LOOOOOVE their grouping aspect, just cant stand the raiding the way they do it.
Will there be LDoNish specific servers focus about grouping like we never see ever? It remain to be seen. But if such a server open, all the raid loot should be redistribute in harder grouping area, could be identical but higher mobs(difficulty rating), or another completely specific dungeon or zone(s)...either way could be extremely interesting!
My casuals friends make nightmares at the name of Brad. Brad is a hardcore dev. He is the father of raiding. But a LN God of LAW have LG and LE followers and they usually care for those followers. A demi-god could be Justice(LG) and another could be Vengeance or Retribution(definitely evil, could be lawfull and vindicative) Hardcore groupers are definitely such. Hardcore soloers are followers he dont recognize and may very well aggro on, a little like having chaotic followers worshiping LAW, at least in his flawed perception!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
There's raiding in every game on the market. It's just a question of the degree.
You never hear people complaining in WoW because there's raiding. Hell, most people don't know, and wouldn't care if they did. Because they still have plenty to do, playing however they like to play (mostly solo'ing in WoW...).
Having raiding in a game isn't a crime. Having raiding that is required to advance your character at all through a large chunks of content (PoP, GoD...) is.
And it's well worth it to point out that Brad's tenure with EQ ended well before PoP or GoD style progression became pervasive.
-Feyshtey-
Raiding is not a problem per say, I am an occasionnal raider if the setting is done right.
Giving raiders the best rewards is a problem, as you make everyone else trivials. For me, non-raiding server is acceptable, or raiders not getting best groups and solo reward would also be acceptable. But again, we are disgressing from the original topic.
Raiding is a focus for Sigil, yet grouping is also a focus. If they make raiders better groupers then I would not even bother with the game and just jump to the next. If someone need to raid in order to be on the top of the grouping game, then the game is incredibly flawed. If someone raid for raiding aspect(been good in raiding, not gaining 1 edge in groups), then heck, I may join a guild and raid a lot more then I ever did(after I max the grouping edges most likely, until the next expension).
I quit WoW because of their raiding(giving the best rewards) and before making it to level 10(first day), hehe, but I am a bruised customer.
Raid earned epic is unacceptable to me, unless it only affect raiding and not grouping. I dont want to be recruiting peoples who will leave my group for a raid when I go out to group, I want peoples dedicated to their groups. If you make a system where raid give best rewards, then peoples will act like jerks in group and leave for a raid option at all the time, this is unacceptable. If best group rewards are earned in groups, then the peoples leaving groups for raids will unlikely have those and will prolly not be in my groups which will leave only the peoples focused and worthy of those rewards, respecting their groups a LOT more.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I disagree with you on a number of levels Anofayle.
I think that the best rewards in the game should (and always are) obtained through cooperation. The greater the degree of cooperation, the greater the reward. Raiding is nothing more than abnormaly large groups. It's an iteration of the same idea as grouping. The more people, the more power, the more cooperation, the better the reward. Exactly as grouping (~6 people) grants greater rewards than solo'ing. And that is as it should be.
Even in WoW you're not able to complete the most rewarding quests when they are available to you without a little help. As solo friendly as that game is, it still grants the best rewards earlier to those who group.
-Feyshtey-
I agree, raids are a major organization thing, and can be difficult to run, they should get the absolute best loot.
BUT...
I do think casuals should get at least a shot at (close to) raid level gear through hard quests and such. Reason raid gear is better is because you have to organize, plan, and wait, sometimes, like 1 to 2 hours to get a raid organized and charging in. It can be like a 5 hours process, and at the same time they're not really getting exp... Not to mention raid whipes.
And seriously, who is going to have better loot? A huge dragon of d00m, or a named orc?
I think quests like the shawl quest should be added in for non-raiders.
I also think of the problems is that it's GUILD ONLY raids. I'm hoping Vanguard can get enough of a community built up to where normal, everyday peeps can organize raids.
I can agree with that. Very difficult and/or time consuming quests should grant near raid quality items. However, I don't think that every single portion of the quests should be entirely soloable.
Even on the Coldain shawl there were multiple parts that required a strong group (at least when the quests were introduced).
I see your point though, and for the most part, I agree.
-Feyshtey-
*shrug*
We will never agree and it would pointless to even argue. I hold this discussion since pre-Kunark.
Raiders deserve raid uberness, nothing more, nothing less, a world designed by giving them everything would be a world empty of non-raiders(look at old EQ, not many non-raiders). Non-raiders should be at least 95% of your online peoples, if you have below that amount, either your raiding system is great and attract a lot of peoples(millions of customers) OR the non-raiding is lame and you end up with less of the non-raiders.
Raiders can be all uber alone in their Ivory tower, I wont be online so I hope they enjoy a very restricted and limited amount of players to share the game with them.
If a raider is even equal to me in groups and didnt earn his edges in groups, I would not tolerate it and plainly not play the game, period. Raiders ditch their group for a raid and abandon full groups on a regular basic, this is not deserving of group uberness, not at all.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
You're kidding, right? Old EQ (pre-Luclin) had few raiders. On a server of 2500 people (the populations that old EQ servers had), maybe 300-500 were raiders. There were huge arguments at EQ's original release about the 100 people that were killing the dragons, and that no one else would ever get that great loot. Those same arguments cropped up when the planes opened.The vast majority of players were not raiders. Of them, only a small percentage were even pissed that the raid guilds were swiping the dragons or planes before more casual people could get to them. Mainly because most other players weren't at high level, weren't aware of what raiding was, or were resigned to the fact that it took more commitment than they were interested in investing.
THis is less true in EQ now than it used to be, to be sure. But that's partly a symptom of the design choices EQ has taken since PoP. EQ has chosen to focus on high end raiding in mutliple expansions, and turned off a lot of their players. But old school EQ was very much a game with a little for everyone. The best rewards were always reserved for those who invested the most. But again, most players didn't care so long as they had something entertaining to do. EQ's population didn't really start to dwindle until the bulk of the focus was on raiding.
There's no indication whatsoever that Vanguard's design is doomed to that fate. In fact, EQ didn't start going down that path until after Brad McQuaid left Sony.
How would you know? More importantly, why would you care? If you're enjoying yourself in the game, is what someone else does with their gametime really important to you at all?-Feyshtey-
Well...
In old EQ, peoples didnt understand the ramifications when they ''install the must raid setting'' at the Kunark era and therafter, so to assume this mistake is profitable is wrong. What was profitable was everything around it and the fact they add a new gameplay, raiding.
Raiders been better then non-raiders in non-raiding indeed does affect me when I am trying to group. I will have peoples that leave my group because a raid is been called, peoples I want in my group because of the stats, but that trash and kill the grouping system at every occasion a raid come up. Raiding making better soloers say I need to raid if I want to solo optimally(since I am an achiever, no real choice there), which is plainly unacceptable. The reward need to be consequentials with the activities, otherwises they are pointless.
See, raiding in a MMORPG is like the ''happy partyer'' in last party. If he drink and enjoy himself he add to the party. If he get sick and abuse others guests, he kill the party. Not everyone want to sing with him, and for an achiever, there is no choice when it comes to where the rewards are. If the best reward in a game was given by ''insert any sexual activity over the internet'', I would either do it or quit the game, I would not accept it if I dont do it. Same goes with raiding. The first time someone behave wrongly in a party, it is usually a lot more acceptable, and peoples are more likely to accept it...but after a few times? They wont share the same parties. Same goes with raid rewards.
Having raiding getting the ultimate rewards mean that most achievers will either raid or not play the game althogether. Achievers does care to reach the top, it is a focus of every moment. It is the holy grail...rewards does matter for achievers. Of course, as long as the achievers dont realize that, you dont have this issue(which was the initial case in Kunark+ era, achievers didnt realize that for a LONG time or understand what it mean). And if the players are not achievers, I have no idea how they are thinking about the topic, but they may certainly miss all their RL friends who are achievers and usually helping them. Are the achievers mostly raiders? I doubt it...check your data and see if losing that rather big % of the achievers from the start is worth it, with all the implications it have on the game itself as well as the $ you lose from the subscriptions. Do you want less achievers in your game and put a pressure for some non-achievers to take the lead and act like achievers when a sortage of achievers happen in a guild(which often lead to a guild disintegration...)?
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If you group with someone more than a couple of times, and they drop your group to go raid.... Don't group them anymore. I don't see the problem.
The number of hardcore raiders, even in EQ a year ago, was not all that great. Maybe a couple of times a month I would have someone leave a group to go on a raid. It's just not that big a deal. And if a particular person shows a pattern of that behaviour, don't group with them. That's the wonderful thing about being a member of a community. Not to mention that most people in the end game know who the major raiding guilds are on their server. If it really concerns you that much, don't group with anyone in those guilds. Your likelyhood of a problem like you describe is minimal, at best.
(An interesting thing to note here, is that you suggested grouping with those same people to take advantage of their greater power, while in the same breath condemning them for the sacrifices they make to get that power...)
No, it doesn't. The only people that just won't play the game are the people who are obsessed with what someone else has, rather than what they themselves have. Honestely, I don't see that as a big loss, being that those are the people who are constantly whining about why that other guy got that loot, or how they got screwed, or how the world is out to get them.
A true achiever wants to earn their own keep. And an interesting sidebar to that is that they always want to have something just out of their reach to work toward. If everything can be earned in a group or groupable quest setting, those achievers will get it. And they'll get it in pretty short order. Once they have it all, they'll either sit at the end of the available content and be the most vocal about a lack of anything else to do. Or they'll quit. Raiding provides a nice cussion betwee 'what is available to me now' and 'what I hope to tackle one day'. It's a huge carrot looming out there, compelling the achiever to stick with it and await that oppurtunity to reach for the big prize. It's an incredibly powerful staying force in the game. Quite the opposite of what you suggest.
The average casual player doesn't give a rat's ass about what the other guy has. They just want to play a game. As long as there's entertaining content for them to consume, and that content allows them some character advancement, they'll be perfectly happy. What Uber Joe has is wholly irrelevant to them, so long as they are not completely blocked from advancing in some way themselves.
[edit: By your reasoning, casual gamers are just as damaging to the game. I mean after all, they barely play enough to gain the power to pull their weight in your groups. And with their limited playtime, are very likely to drop your group to log off....]
-Feyshtey-
Uh, Everquest pre-raiding era was so lacking. I think velious was the obvious peak of this, but NToV, ToV, AoW, coldain king and tormax proved that if you design it well raiding is fantastic. The whole faction Velious/Kunark era was the golden era of MMO's ( that and UO pre-trammel) and to think any different is folly. These were RAIDING era's. The problem is not raiding, it is the worry of over-itemization. The beauty of Kunark and Velious was that they had so many items that had clickies and what not. If they had just learned to utilize this better and not make it completely useless two expansions down the road then all is well. I mean hell, BoC was so well implemented that it is still good for pre-ele tanks.
Anyway, I digress. Raiding made EQ. Raiding is content, and content is king. Merely having something to achieve will always be what I want. A new flashy mechanic in a group environment will not soon be half as fun as NToV was back in the day. Honestly, I was happy to see them get crazy with the raiding around the PoP time, but it was so amazingly poorly implemented that it just ruined the game. The people who just considered raiding tedious obviously didn't have very many friends, as the downtime of a raid was the time that you most usually talk to them. Plus, WHO COULD FORGET GEMS! GEMS, MAN, GEMS!
koto
All have been said.
Someone that cant agree that best groupers need to be groupers or think they try to get to leech from raiders by grouping them is clearly insane IMO. We want grouping rewards to belong to groupers and to nobody else, give them to tradeskillers and I will still be quite unhappy.
My views about solo uberness that should belong to soloers is the same, however I have given hope away in the case of Vanguard a long time ago on this topic, yet, on the grouping topic, I still hope they will understand and make ''Non-raiding servers'' or ''Hardcore grouping servers''.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
The main market is soloers? Perhaps.
Does that mean that it's not possible to make a successful game out of a smaller chunk of the market? The chunk that no one is attempting to capture at this point? No.
The game might not be for you. There's no crime in that. But there are plenty of people out there that want to group for the majority of their playtime. A game designed around that premise stands to capture a good chunk of players. Will it crush WoW? No. I doubt it. There are too many people entrenched in the instant gratification mindset. Will it fail miserably? No. There are too many people that are desperately trying to find that cooperative challenge most games are slowly weeding out, are leaving out from the start, or are reserving for the end-game (that people reach in less than 2 months).
WoW, to me, is just a really long tutorial before reaching the actual game, once leveling has ended. And that game is a group oriented game with some raiding sprinkled in. Deny it if you like, but you won't find people in the best gear in WoW who just sit and farm money or gear solo. If they are well-equiped they are at least grouping. More than likely they are raiding. And that will be exagerated a great deal with the Battlefields.
Vanguard is just more likley to have the same content throughout a characters leveling progression instead of the game being one thing to max level, and switching to something else once people reach max level.
-Feyshtey-