I have an even better solution. But this one will make everyone a priest/healer class. Your character is unusable after killed UNTIL he is resurrected by another player.
Yea healers will make some major bank.
Everyone will have a 2nd account to be able to res themselves.
1. Characters can choose to permanently sacrifice themselves for some greater cause. This sacrifice is rewarded by the game in some fashion. (Area is named after character, character is recorded in the "history books", player gets a new character at level (X).)
2. Even though a character is permanently killed, the player has some sort of meta-advancement that goes beyond the character they are currently playing. (Gear, Family, country, etc.)
3. Permadeath is actually hard to achieve. For example, every player character is tied to (through lore) the moon through a mystical strand of energy. Whenever the player is killed, the moon resurrects them. In order to permanently kill someone you must seek out an Alchemists stone, and use it on the persons corpse in order to sever that strand. The Stones are expensive, and difficult to Acquire. They are a one-time use only item. You would not want to use these willy nilly, due to the time and effort required to get one.
1. Characters can choose to permanently sacrifice themselves for some greater cause. This sacrifice is rewarded by the game in some fashion. (Area is named after character, character is recorded in the "history books", player gets a new character at level (X).)
2. Even though a character is permanently killed, the player has some sort of meta-advancement that goes beyond the character they are currently playing. (Gear, Family, country, etc.)
3. Permadeath is actually hard to achieve. For example, every player character is tied to (through lore) the moon through a mystical strand of energy. Whenever the player is killed, the moon resurrects them. In order to permanently kill someone you must seek out an Alchemists stone, and use it on the persons corpse in order to sever that strand. The Stones are expensive, and difficult to Acquire. They are a one-time use only item. You would not want to use these willy nilly, due to the time and effort required to get one.
holly crap i like option 3!
if you are the warlord that semi killed hundreds from a alliance/guild that alliance/guild will not hesitate 2x to use the stone on him rather than someone they just ganked in the forest
1. Characters can choose to permanently sacrifice themselves for some greater cause. This sacrifice is rewarded by the game in some fashion. (Area is named after character, character is recorded in the "history books", player gets a new character at level (X).)
2. Even though a character is permanently killed, the player has some sort of meta-advancement that goes beyond the character they are currently playing. (Gear, Family, country, etc.)
3. Permadeath is actually hard to achieve. For example, every player character is tied to (through lore) the moon through a mystical strand of energy. Whenever the player is killed, the moon resurrects them. In order to permanently kill someone you must seek out an Alchemists stone, and use it on the persons corpse in order to sever that strand. The Stones are expensive, and difficult to Acquire. They are a one-time use only item. You would not want to use these willy nilly, due to the time and effort required to get one.
holly crap i like option 3!
if you are the warlord that semi killed hundreds from a alliance/guild that alliance/guild will not hesitate 2x to use the stone on him rather than someone they just ganked in the forest
Yeah, pretty interesting idea, could make for some real fun politics/drama ingame. just imagine the raging between guilds when one permanently kills a leader or high ranking officer of another guild. It's a good foundation to start a system on, and with expanding on it a bit and adding the right mechanics, it could be really awesome. There is always a risk of permadeath, but fairly low, and it would also make people think twice before acting like complete jackasses, caus ethey neve rknow, that next person they grief or piss off, could be the person holding the stone that permakills them.
3. Permadeath is actually hard to achieve. For example, every player character is tied to (through lore) the moon through a mystical strand of energy. Whenever the player is killed, the moon resurrects them. In order to permanently kill someone you must seek out an Alchemists stone, and use it on the persons corpse in order to sever that strand. The Stones are expensive, and difficult to Acquire. They are a one-time use only item. You would not want to use these willy nilly, due to the time and effort required to get one.
Not a bad idea. Too expand on that idea, when you create a character you have to select certain criteria that will result in permadeath - a character flaw if you will - like as you said a certain rare item. This would be great for eradicating the idiots on the server as they would would permadeath hunted by many others!
Maybe there could be countermeasures to evade permadeath - like if you hold the item/flaw for killing the person who defeats you - they cancel eachother out.
I would love to see something in the form of the soul being ripped from your body as the rite of death is cast.
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Sounds interesting, this is not for everyone but i like it. I think the game would need to have a No lvlin system involved, Would be cool if you died, you drop all your gear but you can go back on another char to loot just some of it.
You should spend more time in the dev corner, you get good ideas.
Some permadeath concepts:
1. Characters can choose to permanently sacrifice themselves for some greater cause. This sacrifice is rewarded by the game in some fashion. (Area is named after character, character is recorded in the "history books", player gets a new character at level (X).)
I could see it working, but there are issues with how far it can rally go, as well as how many times it can be applied. If areas where you died/seppuku are named after you, then there would be a race as noobs to claim everything in the first day, and even if you have to be max level you'll see a race to do it - one ran by bots and other cheaters.
Now, if every time a player decided to do this and it made a more low-key change to the game; like a book sold on some vendors that record the deeds of the character, and it grants buffs to readers, as well as handing *something* down the line to the next character, then I could see it work fine. Would be better if the buff-book only worked for your own characters though, because it would litter the database with redundant items and lose it's point.
2. Even though a character is permanently killed, the player has some sort of meta-advancement that goes beyond the character they are currently playing. (Gear, Family, country, etc.)
The rollover ideal is basically what's needed, but if a permadeath were to affect a whole faction or server, perhaps it can be tied to an event that requires true death. I would try to make sure it's not exploitable though, because if oyu can just make new accounts/characters and spam kill them it also kills the point.
Either way, if it was safe to apply, you could see server-wide death tolls open up really high-end content on a timer, or maybe even at a personal level where killing one high-level character opens a new area to you. Seems a bit counter-intuitive, and way too masochistic to try though.
3. Permadeath is actually hard to achieve. For example, every player character is tied to (through lore) the moon through a mystical strand of energy. Whenever the player is killed, the moon resurrects them. In order to permanently kill someone you must seek out an Alchemists stone, and use it on the persons corpse in order to sever that strand. The Stones are expensive, and difficult to Acquire. They are a one-time use only item. You would not want to use these willy nilly, due to the time and effort required to get one.
Like the others, I think this is the best approach. Mainly because of the moneysink it will create, but it would definitely make heated drama end spectacularly. I could only hope that progression is speedy enough to prevent rage-quits, because the faster you make revenge in the same fashion, the better.
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You should spend more time in the dev corner, you get good ideas.
Some permadeath concepts:
1. Characters can choose to permanently sacrifice themselves for some greater cause. This sacrifice is rewarded by the game in some fashion. (Area is named after character, character is recorded in the "history books", player gets a new character at level (X).)
I could see it working, but there are issues with how far it can rally go, as well as how many times it can be applied. If areas where you died/seppuku are named after you, then there would be a race as noobs to claim everything in the first day, and even if you have to be max level you'll see a race to do it - one ran by bots and other cheaters.
Now, if every time a player decided to do this and it made a more low-key change to the game; like a book sold on some vendors that record the deeds of the character, and it grants buffs to readers, as well as handing *something* down the line to the next character, then I could see it work fine. Would be better if the buff-book only worked for your own characters though, because it would litter the database with redundant items and lose it's point.
This would not be the normal permadeath people think of when they mention it. It would not be the normal, you died in gameplay and your character is wiped sort of hardcore playing mode. This would be the sort of thing that happens rarely and through in-game events. It would also be 100% voluntary. Lets say that (theoretically) that each server in WOW had a large in-game event leading up to the release of cataclysm. During this event, max level characters will (through some means) be given the chance to kill themselves and trigger the Cataclysm. The first one to do it, will end up having the actual cataclysm named after them on that server. For the rest of the game the cataclysm is now known as ______'s Folly.
2. Even though a character is permanently killed, the player has some sort of meta-advancement that goes beyond the character they are currently playing. (Gear, Family, country, etc.)
The rollover ideal is basically what's needed, but if a permadeath were to affect a whole faction or server, perhaps it can be tied to an event that requires true death. I would try to make sure it's not exploitable though, because if oyu can just make new accounts/characters and spam kill them it also kills the point.
Either way, if it was safe to apply, you could see server-wide death tolls open up really high-end content on a timer, or maybe even at a personal level where killing one high-level character opens a new area to you. Seems a bit counter-intuitive, and way too masochistic to try though.
What I see is that player characters have advancement themselves. But that it isn't that large. (Think 1-20 in WOW/EQ2 for timespan.) Its not until AFTER character advancement is complete, that most meta-advancement commences. Advancing items for example, is based (lore-wise) on the concept of it being in the hands of great people. Until you reach max character (lvl 20) you are not considered great, so your items don't advance. Your family name advances slowly, but is based on actions your characters do, and has nothing to do with the fact that characters die.
In fact, I don't think player advancement should hinge on the actual death of individual player characters. I mean, death should always be avoided. But when a character dies, it shouldn't be the end of advancement.
3. Permadeath is actually hard to achieve. For example, every player character is tied to (through lore) the moon through a mystical strand of energy. Whenever the player is killed, the moon resurrects them. In order to permanently kill someone you must seek out an Alchemists stone, and use it on the persons corpse in order to sever that strand. The Stones are expensive, and difficult to Acquire. They are a one-time use only item. You would not want to use these willy nilly, due to the time and effort required to get one.
Like the others, I think this is the best approach. Mainly because of the moneysink it will create, but it would definitely make heated drama end spectacularly. I could only hope that progression is speedy enough to prevent rage-quits, because the faster you make revenge in the same fashion, the better.
These are not 3 competing ways to implement perma-death. These are, in fact. Just 3 seperate ideas that use permadeath as a concept. The first, isn't even really the standard idea of permadeath in games. its just an idea that uses killing a character permanently.
Doesn't interest me at all. I don't find the concept of permadeath as being a fun addition to the genre which is why I play video games.
All I see it doing is restricting people's entertainment because many would be unwilling to take even the slightest risk not to mention considering how selfish and unfriendly a lot have become in mmos it just seems to me this would lead to that becoming even more prevalent. Since now a mistake by someone could not only cause your party to wipe but for you to lose your character forever.
I'm all for people that enjoy different playstyles so I'm not trying to take anything away from those that enjoy it. Just not something I find even remotely interesting in doing myself. Never cared for game masters that incorporated it back in the pencil and paper days and certainly don't find it any more entertaining now.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
A civilized discussion of mechanics in these forums? Prepphousterrous!
I believe perma death is shunned because it is implemented in long term never ending games, all those years you could have used in your real life to have fun are destroyed a second time when you die tryignt o reach the maximum lvl and you go back to square one.
If games were done in sessions this wouldn't hurt "as much", and it might allow for player made lore (Player made lore? Phrephoustorous), as suggested before, these sessions could last maybe a year before the ultimate conclusion is reached.
The world geography could be changed every now and then (5 years maybe soem cataclysm hits the land), but the location or objective would always change for a fresh new start.
This world isn't small, it is not huge either, but the level cap is say lvl 20 (Let's say you can reach it in a week if you play non stop), you could obtain skills from these, but the more powerful ones are gotten from gear and training (With a town trainer NPC or fighting on Mt. Buff for 10 minutes).
The players spend the first 2-3 months finding out what the ultimate objective is through quests and events, then they spend 5-6 months completing this objective, then they spend the rest of the game fighting over which guild wins (Fighting over the sacred stone of victory or conquering all of the towns in the world, or stealing the rival guild stones).
Perma death would be done through HARD to obtain items, while they would only work on players lvl 17 and up (To ensure you be able to level up to a stage where you are able to defend yourself), some one of a kind item could be obtained for resurrections (Some hlaf ass resurrection ritual which requires like 50 guys bowing to the corpse for hlaf an hour draining these player's mana leaving them extremely vulnerable or something ;p.
This could be treated as ome sort of lobby/perisstent world type of thing, you would be able to egt moderately attached to characters and their development, yet still make a new one in 2 - 3 weeks play with an entire different playstyle (Maybe first you were an enforcer, now your a bandit etc).
The events would be pretty sped up sicne it would all take place in a year so having enough material would be one of the msot difficult problems to face.
A civilized discussion of mechanics in these forums? Prepphousterrous!
I believe perma death is shunned because it is implemented in long term never ending games, all those years you could have used in your real life to have fun are destroyed a second time when you die tryignt o reach the maximum lvl and you go back to square one.
If games were done in sessions this wouldn't hurt "as much", and it might allow for player made lore (Player made lore? Phrephoustorous), as suggested before, these sessions could last maybe a year before the ultimate conclusion is reached.
The world geography could be changed every now and then (5 years maybe soem cataclysm hits the land), but the location or objective would always change for a fresh new start.
This world isn't small, it is not huge either, but the level cap is say lvl 20 (Let's say you can reach it in a week if you play non stop), you could obtain skills from these, but the more powerful ones are gotten from gear and training (With a town trainer NPC or fighting on Mt. Buff for 10 minutes).
The players spend the first 2-3 months finding out what the ultimate objective is through quests and events, then they spend 5-6 months completing this objective, then they spend the rest of the game fighting over which guild wins (Fighting over the sacred stone of victory or conquering all of the towns in the world, or stealing the rival guild stones).
Perma death would be done through HARD to obtain items, while they would only work on players lvl 17 and up (To ensure you be able to level up to a stage where you are able to defend yourself), some one of a kind item could be obtained for resurrections (Some hlaf ass resurrection ritual which requires like 50 guys bowing to the corpse for hlaf an hour draining these player's mana leaving them extremely vulnerable or something ;p.
This could be treated as ome sort of lobby/perisstent world type of thing, you would be able to egt moderately attached to characters and their development, yet still make a new one in 2 - 3 weeks play with an entire different playstyle (Maybe first you were an enforcer, now your a bandit etc).
The events would be pretty sped up sicne it would all take place in a year so having enough material would be one of the msot difficult problems to face.
As someone else stated, the biggest thing we hear when permadeath is mentioned is an implication that the game be something along the lines of one that is already on the market + Permadeath. It just wouldn't work well. These games are not made in that fashion. People don't want to die and lose the time investment in the game. Especially when in many of the games on the market, dying is something that is fairly easy to do.
In order for permadeath to be effective, the game needs to be built from the ground up with the idea of permadeath instilled in it. I think that the only ways for permadeath to be accepted in a game by the general masses, it would require at least one of the following:
1. The player advances things beyond just the toon they are playing.
2. While defeat is easy, dying is hard.
3. Death is not a serious setback, the time it takes to return to effectiveness with a new character is very small. (This doesn't mean back to where you were before you died, but back to actual effectiveness.
Typical permadeath is completely unappealing. You can get a similar rush without stomping on 2+ hours of player effort.
In fact, the games that give me the best adrenaline rush are the ones with nearly zero death penalty (Natural Selection Combat, and really FPSes in general.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You can already do this in any game out there if it is something you enjoy. I don't see why a developer should focus on it as a selling point. I suppose it could be an untapped market for someone to go after but just seems like a waste of resources to me considering there's nothing stopping someone from adopting the permadeath concept into their gameplay style.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
lol if you die in the game your character gets locked out for the rest of the day . No death penalty, just a day's worth of "F%^&ing bullshit game, I hate this shit" until you get over it and jump on your alt...just an idea that hit me before I started
Permadeath is something I'd really like to see but as has been said by people who have followed this,and other, threads, it has to be in a type of game not yet seen.
Permadeath pros:
Adds the 'greatest' risk alement to encounters.
Increases tension and so can increase suspense and thrill of encounters.
In PvP allows griefers to finally be put to death for good.
Allows for epic sacrifices to become part of the story.
increases the worth of character exploits.
Allows other players the chance to become the 'best' even long after launch.
Probably other shit
Permadeath Cons:
Makes you want to quit if death is out of your immediate control.
PvP griefers become 100x more terrible.
Can feel like a waste of time if all the game offers is the culmination of your exploits instead of the enjoyment of your time.
Makes baby jesus cry
Latency death/Turn off your power quick before dying needs to be addressed.
Need a way to feel like you can continue the game with another character without feeling you are 'starting all over'
To rehash previous posts, there are ways to address many issues, but it's really hard to find ones that would work:
Make permadeath hard to inflict on a person/hard to reverse through resurrection:
This is less like permadeath if you can resurrect and more like a really long death penalty.
Hard to GIVE permadeath walks the line of those potions in your inventory that are so rare you never use them anyway. And if you DID it would be the ultimate worst insult you could ever give someone in an mmo...like to the degree they might hunt you down in RL hehe.
Have an after life gameplay for when you DO die:
Then permadeath really is moot because you are still playing the game with your character, and a system has been made to explain the journey between life and death...An elaborate 'ghost world' from wow.
Pass down heirlooms/status/karma systems:
This to me has one of the most possible applications as it allows the players time to be rewarded in the entirety of the game world instead of just for that character.
An account can be a lineage; instead of single character accounts, there are single lineage accounts. This allows inheritance of all items/property that old grandad worked so hard to get for you.
You had your character become a noble with the status to go with it, your lineage is granted similar boons like the offspring of a prince or lord.
You were a complete douchebag griefer in a past life? Your family name is marred as well so no escaping the karma of your playstyle through dying.
The immortal game avatar will always lose its appeal...:
What about AGE? Old age is another permadeath. What if characters had an expiry depending on things like race, wounds etc.? The complexity of a full life could be quite interesting within a permadeath system
Races with extreme power sets like extreme strength might plow through fellow players but have relatively short lifespans...
Reckless use of 'HASTE' spells in your youth might catch up to you one day :P.
Mighty quests for fountains of youth, and dynamic means to chase after that elusive immortality to truly become godlike.
Age related experience could be used in game to allow the experience to change for the player as his role within society changes. Don't want to become the wise old wizard passing on knowledge to the guild? Use the in game RETIRE option to enshrine your character and his/her deeds in a nice glossy 8x 10 you can hang on your wall...all for the low low price of 10.99+shipping and handling
Most people won't read this WoT because they are like the masses in mmo chat; no attention span or care to listen, but for those that are actually interested by this topic and have actually read the posts that followed the OP, these are some more of my 2c .
UO,AC1&2,EQ1&2,DAOC,SB,SWG,FFXI, Horizons,EvE,E&B,AO,WoW,VG, Lineage,GW,TR,LotR,AoC,CoH,DDO a myriad of FtP...and still looking...
I've always enjoyed the extra challenge inherant in the Hard Core mode of Online games like Diablo/Sacred
The communities were far more helpful, constructive and just generally nicer than thier normal mode counterparts
HC WoW would be a disaster ......... for most people.
Stranglethorn Vale is an area that provides a perfect example of the 'pvp griefer' mentality that pervades the riskfree pvp mechanics of every MMO out there.
Haven and Hearth has a very interesting permadeath system.
You can pray to your ancestors and obtain some of their fighting skills/stats for a little while. I think it keeps track of your 5 past ancestors and gives you a portion of each. To do this you make offerings to your ancestors of items from teh game.
People who die and then catch back up in stats will actually be stronger when they activate their ancestors power.
With Permadeath, nobody would attempt anything risky. The risk / reward would have to be huge to tempt anyone. At least not in a leveling / skill training type of game.
Who would want to take down that dangerous dragon? Not me if I'm going to have to start from scratch at lvl 1 if we wipe.
Never thought I'd see someone on this forum that gets it. Glad to see we're not all mere sheep
One thing that I find funny about the F2P system, they have this shop were you purchase "special" items and yet if they had Permadeath and full looting they might actually make more profits.
Now that we have the publisher's watching, death = risk factor + a chance to stand out from the crowd.
Isn't that what people want from MMO's, to stand out, go figure out how it could be, and it will be, doh!
Originally posted by Wickedjelly All I see it doing is restricting people's entertainment because many would be unwilling to take even the slightest risk not to mention considering how selfish and unfriendly a lot have become in mmos it just seems to me this would lead to that becoming even more prevalent. Since now a mistake by someone could not only cause your party to wipe but for you to lose your character forever.
Agree. I enjoy it in single player games. It would create huge chasms between new players and vets in an MMO. I usually spend time mentoring new guildies teaching them game mechanics, builds etc. Would be tough to do if I couldn't save their a$$es when they leroy something with my purpled toon.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
But, why not a permadeath server? Not hte game, only a server!
With wipes every year more or less.
Thousands of players re waiting for that Permadeath server, btw never mind the game...
I dont understand why the devs dont test one .
Because thousands of players do not fill up a server. You need tens of thousands.
And i highly doubt you can actually find thousands to play a permadeath server.
also you would need to create the game with permadeath in mind, really liked the idea of robert4818 and squal´zel.
sat with basic thoughts like you would need a no lvl game, where you gain experience that you "teach" later generations, as in on your next char you would have to sit plan on how many xp you spended on the current char and how much you wanted to "bank". and ofc if you gained the massive sword of thunders, should be handed on to the next generation, but only those special items, maybe with a max number.
either way roberts number 3 were so awesome and would give the game some real strategy.
ow btw properbly wouldnt pay to play a perma death game unless some progression safed or made way easier and with diffrent experiences after each death.
But, why not a permadeath server? Not hte game, only a server!
With wipes every year more or less.
Thousands of players re waiting for that Permadeath server, btw never mind the game...
I dont understand why the devs dont test one .
Because thousands of players do not fill up a server. You need tens of thousands.
And i highly doubt you can actually find thousands to play a permadeath server.
Daggerfall has only 1,000 as far as I'm aware. It's also based on open PvP and full looting. It's still running, so if they can have it, so can others!
Comments
Everyone will have a 2nd account to be able to res themselves.
But If you are good enough you camp the corpse and wait till the rezzer shows up. I doubt anyone wants to pay for 2 rezzer accounts.
World of Warcraft is the original creation of God. Real Life is in fact a WoW clone.
Some permadeath concepts:
1. Characters can choose to permanently sacrifice themselves for some greater cause. This sacrifice is rewarded by the game in some fashion. (Area is named after character, character is recorded in the "history books", player gets a new character at level (X).)
2. Even though a character is permanently killed, the player has some sort of meta-advancement that goes beyond the character they are currently playing. (Gear, Family, country, etc.)
3. Permadeath is actually hard to achieve. For example, every player character is tied to (through lore) the moon through a mystical strand of energy. Whenever the player is killed, the moon resurrects them. In order to permanently kill someone you must seek out an Alchemists stone, and use it on the persons corpse in order to sever that strand. The Stones are expensive, and difficult to Acquire. They are a one-time use only item. You would not want to use these willy nilly, due to the time and effort required to get one.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
holly crap i like option 3!
if you are the warlord that semi killed hundreds from a alliance/guild that alliance/guild will not hesitate 2x to use the stone on him rather than someone they just ganked in the forest
Yeah, pretty interesting idea, could make for some real fun politics/drama ingame. just imagine the raging between guilds when one permanently kills a leader or high ranking officer of another guild. It's a good foundation to start a system on, and with expanding on it a bit and adding the right mechanics, it could be really awesome. There is always a risk of permadeath, but fairly low, and it would also make people think twice before acting like complete jackasses, caus ethey neve rknow, that next person they grief or piss off, could be the person holding the stone that permakills them.
Someone please make this game, we need more like it to filter the idiots out of other games.....
Permadeath game needs only:
- A Wipe server every year more or less. With a final round and looking for the winner guild
. Tombs: Where players can sign his dead friend, and try to revenge him
Clan Hispania
Not a bad idea. Too expand on that idea, when you create a character you have to select certain criteria that will result in permadeath - a character flaw if you will - like as you said a certain rare item. This would be great for eradicating the idiots on the server as they would would permadeath hunted by many others!
Maybe there could be countermeasures to evade permadeath - like if you hold the item/flaw for killing the person who defeats you - they cancel eachother out.
I would love to see something in the form of the soul being ripped from your body as the rite of death is cast.
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Sounds interesting, this is not for everyone but i like it. I think the game would need to have a No lvlin system involved, Would be cool if you died, you drop all your gear but you can go back on another char to loot just some of it.
I would try this.
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Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
These are not 3 competing ways to implement perma-death. These are, in fact. Just 3 seperate ideas that use permadeath as a concept. The first, isn't even really the standard idea of permadeath in games. its just an idea that uses killing a character permanently.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Doesn't interest me at all. I don't find the concept of permadeath as being a fun addition to the genre which is why I play video games.
All I see it doing is restricting people's entertainment because many would be unwilling to take even the slightest risk not to mention considering how selfish and unfriendly a lot have become in mmos it just seems to me this would lead to that becoming even more prevalent. Since now a mistake by someone could not only cause your party to wipe but for you to lose your character forever.
I'm all for people that enjoy different playstyles so I'm not trying to take anything away from those that enjoy it. Just not something I find even remotely interesting in doing myself. Never cared for game masters that incorporated it back in the pencil and paper days and certainly don't find it any more entertaining now.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
A civilized discussion of mechanics in these forums? Prepphousterrous!
I believe perma death is shunned because it is implemented in long term never ending games, all those years you could have used in your real life to have fun are destroyed a second time when you die tryignt o reach the maximum lvl and you go back to square one.
If games were done in sessions this wouldn't hurt "as much", and it might allow for player made lore (Player made lore? Phrephoustorous), as suggested before, these sessions could last maybe a year before the ultimate conclusion is reached.
The world geography could be changed every now and then (5 years maybe soem cataclysm hits the land), but the location or objective would always change for a fresh new start.
This world isn't small, it is not huge either, but the level cap is say lvl 20 (Let's say you can reach it in a week if you play non stop), you could obtain skills from these, but the more powerful ones are gotten from gear and training (With a town trainer NPC or fighting on Mt. Buff for 10 minutes).
The players spend the first 2-3 months finding out what the ultimate objective is through quests and events, then they spend 5-6 months completing this objective, then they spend the rest of the game fighting over which guild wins (Fighting over the sacred stone of victory or conquering all of the towns in the world, or stealing the rival guild stones).
Perma death would be done through HARD to obtain items, while they would only work on players lvl 17 and up (To ensure you be able to level up to a stage where you are able to defend yourself), some one of a kind item could be obtained for resurrections (Some hlaf ass resurrection ritual which requires like 50 guys bowing to the corpse for hlaf an hour draining these player's mana leaving them extremely vulnerable or something ;p.
This could be treated as ome sort of lobby/perisstent world type of thing, you would be able to egt moderately attached to characters and their development, yet still make a new one in 2 - 3 weeks play with an entire different playstyle (Maybe first you were an enforcer, now your a bandit etc).
The events would be pretty sped up sicne it would all take place in a year so having enough material would be one of the msot difficult problems to face.
As someone else stated, the biggest thing we hear when permadeath is mentioned is an implication that the game be something along the lines of one that is already on the market + Permadeath. It just wouldn't work well. These games are not made in that fashion. People don't want to die and lose the time investment in the game. Especially when in many of the games on the market, dying is something that is fairly easy to do.
In order for permadeath to be effective, the game needs to be built from the ground up with the idea of permadeath instilled in it. I think that the only ways for permadeath to be accepted in a game by the general masses, it would require at least one of the following:
1. The player advances things beyond just the toon they are playing.
2. While defeat is easy, dying is hard.
3. Death is not a serious setback, the time it takes to return to effectiveness with a new character is very small. (This doesn't mean back to where you were before you died, but back to actual effectiveness.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Typical permadeath is completely unappealing. You can get a similar rush without stomping on 2+ hours of player effort.
In fact, the games that give me the best adrenaline rush are the ones with nearly zero death penalty (Natural Selection Combat, and really FPSes in general.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You can already do this in any game out there if it is something you enjoy. I don't see why a developer should focus on it as a selling point. I suppose it could be an untapped market for someone to go after but just seems like a waste of resources to me considering there's nothing stopping someone from adopting the permadeath concept into their gameplay style.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
lol if you die in the game your character gets locked out for the rest of the day
. No death penalty, just a day's worth of "F%^&ing bullshit game, I hate this shit" until you get over it and jump on your alt...just an idea that hit me before I started 
Permadeath is something I'd really like to see but as has been said by people who have followed this,and other, threads, it has to be in a type of game not yet seen.
Permadeath pros:
Adds the 'greatest' risk alement to encounters.
Increases tension and so can increase suspense and thrill of encounters.
In PvP allows griefers to finally be put to death for good.
Allows for epic sacrifices to become part of the story.
increases the worth of character exploits.
Allows other players the chance to become the 'best' even long after launch.
Probably other shit
Permadeath Cons:
Makes you want to quit if death is out of your immediate control.
PvP griefers become 100x more terrible.
Can feel like a waste of time if all the game offers is the culmination of your exploits instead of the enjoyment of your time.
Makes baby jesus cry
Latency death/Turn off your power quick before dying needs to be addressed.
Need a way to feel like you can continue the game with another character without feeling you are 'starting all over'
To rehash previous posts, there are ways to address many issues, but it's really hard to find ones that would work:
Make permadeath hard to inflict on a person/hard to reverse through resurrection:
This is less like permadeath if you can resurrect and more like a really long death penalty.
Hard to GIVE permadeath walks the line of those potions in your inventory that are so rare you never use them anyway. And if you DID it would be the ultimate worst insult you could ever give someone in an mmo...like to the degree they might hunt you down in RL hehe.
Have an after life gameplay for when you DO die:
Then permadeath really is moot because you are still playing the game with your character, and a system has been made to explain the journey between life and death...An elaborate 'ghost world' from wow.
Pass down heirlooms/status/karma systems:
This to me has one of the most possible applications as it allows the players time to be rewarded in the entirety of the game world instead of just for that character.
An account can be a lineage; instead of single character accounts, there are single lineage accounts. This allows inheritance of all items/property that old grandad worked so hard to get for you.
You had your character become a noble with the status to go with it, your lineage is granted similar boons like the offspring of a prince or lord.
You were a complete douchebag griefer in a past life? Your family name is marred as well so no escaping the karma of your playstyle through dying.
The immortal game avatar will always lose its appeal...:
What about AGE? Old age is another permadeath. What if characters had an expiry depending on things like race, wounds etc.? The complexity of a full life could be quite interesting within a permadeath system
Races with extreme power sets like extreme strength might plow through fellow players but have relatively short lifespans...
Reckless use of 'HASTE' spells in your youth might catch up to you one day :P.
Mighty quests for fountains of youth, and dynamic means to chase after that elusive immortality to truly become godlike.
Age related experience could be used in game to allow the experience to change for the player as his role within society changes. Don't want to become the wise old wizard passing on knowledge to the guild? Use the in game RETIRE option to enshrine your character and his/her deeds in a nice glossy 8x 10 you can hang on your wall...all for the low low price of 10.99+shipping and handling
Most people won't read this WoT because they are like the masses in mmo chat; no attention span or care to listen, but for those that are actually interested by this topic and have actually read the posts that followed the OP, these are some more of my 2c
UO,AC1&2,EQ1&2,DAOC,SB,SWG,FFXI, Horizons,EvE,E&B,AO,WoW,VG, Lineage,GW,TR,LotR,AoC,CoH,DDO a myriad of FtP...and still looking...
But, why not a permadeath server? Not hte game, only a server!
With wipes every year more or less.
Thousands of players re waiting for that Permadeath server, btw never mind the game...
I dont understand why the devs dont test one .
Clan Hispania
I've always enjoyed the extra challenge inherant in the Hard Core mode of Online games like Diablo/Sacred
The communities were far more helpful, constructive and just generally nicer than thier normal mode counterparts
HC WoW would be a disaster ......... for most people.
Stranglethorn Vale is an area that provides a perfect example of the 'pvp griefer' mentality that pervades the riskfree pvp mechanics of every MMO out there.
tbh it's not the games that need to change.
Haven and Hearth has a very interesting permadeath system.
You can pray to your ancestors and obtain some of their fighting skills/stats for a little while. I think it keeps track of your 5 past ancestors and gives you a portion of each. To do this you make offerings to your ancestors of items from teh game.
People who die and then catch back up in stats will actually be stronger when they activate their ancestors power.
Never thought I'd see someone on this forum that gets it. Glad to see we're not all mere sheep
One thing that I find funny about the F2P system, they have this shop were you purchase "special" items and yet if they had Permadeath and full looting they might actually make more profits.
Now that we have the publisher's watching, death = risk factor + a chance to stand out from the crowd.
Isn't that what people want from MMO's, to stand out, go figure out how it could be, and it will be, doh!
Because thousands of players do not fill up a server. You need tens of thousands.
And i highly doubt you can actually find thousands to play a permadeath server.
Agree. I enjoy it in single player games. It would create huge chasms between new players and vets in an MMO. I usually spend time mentoring new guildies teaching them game mechanics, builds etc. Would be tough to do if I couldn't save their a$$es when they leroy something with my purpled toon.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
also you would need to create the game with permadeath in mind, really liked the idea of robert4818 and squal´zel.
sat with basic thoughts like you would need a no lvl game, where you gain experience that you "teach" later generations, as in on your next char you would have to sit plan on how many xp you spended on the current char and how much you wanted to "bank". and ofc if you gained the massive sword of thunders, should be handed on to the next generation, but only those special items, maybe with a max number.
either way roberts number 3 were so awesome and would give the game some real strategy.
ow btw properbly wouldnt pay to play a perma death game unless some progression safed or made way easier and with diffrent experiences after each death.
Daggerfall has only 1,000 as far as I'm aware. It's also based on open PvP and full looting. It's still running, so if they can have it, so can others!